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Author Topic: Producers - Thoughts on George Martin  (Read 2550 times)
KDS
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« on: March 09, 2016, 05:24:37 AM »

I didn't want to put this rant in the George Martin - RIP thread.  

One of the reasons mainstream music is in such bad shape today is because we don't have figures like George Martin in the picture anymore.

I was discussing this with a friend the other day.  There are no geniuses in music these days.  Where are the John Lennons, Brian Wilsons, Pete Townshends, Roger Waterss, Jim Morrisons, Ritchie Blackmores, Freddie Mercurys, Tony Iommis, etc etc.

Same goes for producers.  

George Martin has entered the great beyond.  But where are is the next Phil Spector, Brian Wilson, Bob Ezrin, Martin Birch, etc etc.

Now, we have "song doctors."  Guys who know how to push buttons to produce songs that are scientifically impossible to get out of your head.  Not trying to explore new sounds or techniques.  

It's a sad state of affairs.  We'd better enjoy this time now while we still have some guys like Brian Wilson still putting out music.  

« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 08:00:37 AM by KDS » Logged
Emily
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« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2016, 06:54:33 AM »

I think it's the opposite. There are so many that they don't stand out like they used to.
As an aside, I think all of the people you listed were talented, smart and had great achievements, but I think the only one who really qualifies as 'genius' is BW. I think he was the only true prodigy.
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KDS
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« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2016, 07:50:52 AM »

I think it's the opposite. There are so many that they don't stand out like they used to.
As an aside, I think all of the people you listed were talented, smart and had great achievements, but I think the only one who really qualifies as 'genius' is BW. I think he was the only true prodigy.

Maybe I'm just misreading your post.  And, if that's the case, then I do apologize.  But, are you saying that there's so many talented producers out there today that none of them truly stand out?  

If that is what you're saying, I have to respectfully disagree.  When I am exposed to modern pop / rock music, I'm struck by a certain mediocre "same-ness" of it all.  And I think that's a result of the song doctors I referenced.

I do consider Brian Wilson a genius, but I think one of the things that made that era of music so great is that he was not the only one.  And I don't think there's anybody at all in music today, in any genre (and that includes newer bands / artists that I like) that even approaches genius level.  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 08:01:11 AM by KDS » Logged
Emily
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« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2016, 12:03:56 PM »

I think it's the opposite. There are so many that they don't stand out like they used to.
As an aside, I think all of the people you listed were talented, smart and had great achievements, but I think the only one who really qualifies as 'genius' is BW. I think he was the only true prodigy.

Maybe I'm just misreading your post.  And, if that's the case, then I do apologize.  But, are you saying that there's so many talented producers out there today that none of them truly stand out?  

If that is what you're saying, I have to respectfully disagree.  When I am exposed to modern pop / rock music, I'm struck by a certain mediocre "same-ness" of it all.  And I think that's a result of the song doctors I referenced.

I do consider Brian Wilson a genius, but I think one of the things that made that era of music so great is that he was not the only one.  And I don't think there's anybody at all in music today, in any genre (and that includes newer bands / artists that I like) that even approaches genius level.  
You aren't misreading my post.  Smiley
I think a lot of really talented producers are working in hip-hop. And some rock/pop, but not much. I agree that mainstream pop particularly has become pretty schlocky and sloppy. But I do think that George Martin, Brian Wilson, et al stand out because they were the first generation to really make the role of producer what it is and to explore what can happen with pop/rock when you go beyond two guitars, a bass, and some drums. If someone made something with the production of, say, Revolver (disregard songwriting, voices, etc - different topic) today, no one would particularly notice.
I don't think anyone's really exploring a lot of new terrain or doing any ground-breaking in pop/rock, and I think a lot of the production is just lazy. But there are some, like Pharrell for example, who have done some interesting work in the genre and I think are really talented. I also think hip-hop is where it's at, production-wise, these days.
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KDS
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2016, 12:39:08 PM »

Emily,

Hip hop is something that I've ever, and will never, embrace.  So, to me, it doesn't matter who's turning the nobs, it's not something I'm ever going to listen to. 

Much like the hipster thread from a few weeks ago, I think you and I are on opposite ends on this discussion.  Especially since I'd lump Pharrel in with the song doctors that I think are part of the problem with music today.  He's been behind some of the worst of the worst in recent years (ie. Blurred Lines). 
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Emily
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2016, 12:42:55 PM »

 Smiley
We agree on Blurred Lines.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2016, 01:29:42 PM »

I didn't want to put this rant in the George Martin - RIP thread.  

One of the reasons mainstream music is in such bad shape today is because we don't have figures like George Martin in the picture anymore.

I was discussing this with a friend the other day.  There are no geniuses in music these days.  Where are the John Lennons, Brian Wilsons, Pete Townshends, Roger Waterss, Jim Morrisons, Ritchie Blackmores, Freddie Mercurys, Tony Iommis, etc etc.

Same goes for producers.  

George Martin has entered the great beyond.  But where are is the next Phil Spector, Brian Wilson, Bob Ezrin, Martin Birch, etc etc.

Now, we have "song doctors."  Guys who know how to push buttons to produce songs that are scientifically impossible to get out of your head.  Not trying to explore new sounds or techniques.  

It's a sad state of affairs.  We'd better enjoy this time now while we still have some guys like Brian Wilson still putting out music.  



I notice though that most of the people you name are from a particular era. You say there's no one like that today. But were there people like that before? What would your list of names of artists from say 1890-1940 look like?
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the captain
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2016, 03:43:54 PM »

I think this is a tough topic, because different producers do different things for different people. Some producers really leave a mark on the sound of an album (Dave Fridmann), others try to be transparent (Steve Albini). Some are writers, arrangers, performers, others are engineers, others are business people, others are motivators, others are conceptualizers, and of course combinations of the above in different measures.

And in the end--maybe building on what Chocolate Shake Man said--it usually seems like people's favorite producers happen to be the producers of their favorite bands.

To take that idea to KDS's and Emily's comments above, if KDS disdains hip hop and hip hop is the dominant musical form, then naturally KDS is going to say there aren't any great producers anymore.

If I were to take KDS's side that there really aren't as many good producers, consider this: more people make music outside of the major label (and major studio) system, even to the point of creating full, successful albums at home. More producers didn't come up through the ranks, work the studio system, receive formal or informal engineering training, and so on. So if one of my favorite musicians, Kevin Barnes of Of Montreal, came up making his own albums at home, it stands to reason that his production is going to be idiosyncratic, and maybe lacking in certain technical areas. The same could be said for X, Y, or Z. If the label isn't fronting the cash to go all-out, the results aren't what they would have been. The industry doesn't support that situation anymore.

Some of the current or relatively recent producers--like guys whose primary producing careers began in or after the '80s, to get them out of that "golden age" of the '60s or '70s--I have liked or whom I would have to rank as respected/talented include:

Steve Albini
T-Bone Burnett
David Fridmann
Nigel Godrich
Daniel Lanois
Max Martin
Mark Ronson
Rick Rubin
Butch Vig
Pharrell Williams
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2016, 04:02:58 PM »

Steve Albini

Yeah, I'm down with Albini. That guy's super talented.
He was also Joanna's recording engineer on Ys and devised some secret new way to record the harp.
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the captain
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2016, 04:12:24 PM »

Steve Albini

Yeah, I'm down with Albini. That guy's super talented.
He was also Joanna's recording engineer on Ys and devised some secret new way to record the harp.

I was lazy and going off the top of my head with names here, but I was actually thinking about Newsom: her past three albums--Ys onward--all sound fantastic, probably especially the last one. I know she co-produced with one or two other people, and they all did a great job (though I don't know the names). Regarding Albini specifically, there are a few really good interviews and speeches by and with him on youtube and various podcasts that are really interesting. He talks about his approach to engineering and producing (the latter basically being that he wants to do a good job at the former).

And there are plenty of others. The Mountain Goats have been VERY well produced the past few albums. Kacey Musgraves' albums sound fabulous, though I don't know her producer's or producers' names. Whoever did Kendrick Lamar's '15 album. Whoever did Willie Nelson's new one.
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2016, 08:52:01 PM »

In all of these threads comparing today's music to yesterday's music, I think the main difference is that, in that fairytale past, there was a lot fewer places  to be exposed to new music, compared to today. I'm old school, I buy records and cd's, but I do occasionally seek out something on youtube or spotify. In the old days, where could you go to hear music, to listen, not necessarily to buy? Outside of the occasional television appearance by a popular band, the main source was radio. And if you were interested in pop or rock music, you were limited to what they chose to play. In that era, there were a lot of songs that all of us heard. It's a little before my time, but I can't imagine you could turn on top 40 or rock and roll radio in 1966 and not hear "Kicks" by Paul Revere and the Raiders, "Nowhere Man" by the Beatles, "Summer in the City" by the Lovin' Spoonful, "Reach Out I'll Be There" by the Four Tops, there would be a pretty long list of songs that everyone was hearing and everyone knew. Today? Well, sure, radio is still there, but how many people actually depend on radio to keep them up on what's current? There is very little music today that everybody knows because the audience is so fragmented, and also so many options to just sample the things you are interested in. I see a lot of names of bands mentioned in these threads that I know nothing about. And a lot of great music just happens to fly under the radar. I'm gonna guess there is probably as much good music being made now as anytime in the past - maybe not groundbreaking, but certainly well constructed, intelligently written songs by artists that care about their craft. But where are you going to here it? You can't sit back and expect it to be force fed to you, you have to seek it out.
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2016, 03:35:11 AM »

In hip-hop producing means creating the beat - which, as you know, means the whole instrumental part of a song. I think people like RZA, Dr. Dre, Kanye West, The Dust Brothers, Rick Rubin or The Bomb Squad are incredibly talented and just as important for those classics songs as the rappers rapping over the beats. If not more so in some cases. I mean, you would never say George Martin is the genius behind The Beatles or rate him as more important musically, or Tom Wilson or Ted Templeman or whatever. They're great, but only Phil Spector comes close as a producer to the meaning that the term has today in hip-hop - in that everything is his brainchild. I have no problem saying RZA is the true genius behind Wu-Tang, even though the group has 9 actual rappers all greaton their own. Or that Dre basically shifted the whole direction of hip-hop towards the West Coast in the early 90s almost all by himself. Rick Rubin fussed rock with rap in the mid 80s and all the artists he produced at the time, big names such as Run-DMC, LL Cool J or Beastie Boys almost seem like puppets when you realize this, though they're obviously all great. You can't really compare rock producers with hip-hop producers is what I'm saying.
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KDS
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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2016, 05:12:06 AM »

Granted, I did list producers from what was IMO the best era for music. 

But even in bands that I like today (ie. Ghost, Avenged Sevenfold, The Darkness), the producers seem to be using techniques very similar to Bob Rock, or Martin Birch, or Roy Thomas Baker. 

Maybe there's just much new or innovative that can be done in the world of rock. 

I am a big Rick Rubin fan, and I'd love to see him collaborate with Brian Wilson at some point. 

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Emily
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2016, 06:36:42 AM »

In hip-hop producing means creating the beat - which, as you know, means the whole instrumental part of a song. I think people like RZA, Dr. Dre, Kanye West, The Dust Brothers, Rick Rubin or The Bomb Squad are incredibly talented and just as important for those classics songs as the rappers rapping over the beats. If not more so in some cases. I mean, you would never say George Martin is the genius behind The Beatles or rate him as more important musically, or Tom Wilson or Ted Templeman or whatever. They're great, but only Phil Spector comes close as a producer to the meaning that the term has today in hip-hop - in that everything is his brainchild. I have no problem saying RZA is the true genius behind Wu-Tang, even though the group has 9 actual rappers all greaton their own. Or that Dre basically shifted the whole direction of hip-hop towards the West Coast in the early 90s almost all by himself. Rick Rubin fussed rock with rap in the mid 80s and all the artists he produced at the time, big names such as Run-DMC, LL Cool J or Beastie Boys almost seem like puppets when you realize this, though they're obviously all great. You can't really compare rock producers with hip-hop producers is what I'm saying.
I agree, though I'd add Brian Wilson to Phil Spector.
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