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the captain
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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2016, 10:14:32 AM »

I don't want to turn this thread into a whole PC thread.  There's enough of that already in The Sandbox.  

But, I will say that comparing taking potshots at hipster culture is not even remotely close to bigotry.  

It's like comparing Mike Love's antics to that of a serial killer.  It's just not the same.  

And, Emily, if you think my taking shots at the hipster culture = bigotry, then you and I will not see eye to eye on the subject.  

I wish I had the exact quote.  But I remember hearing once that this whole "we're all the same" "the word's a rainbow" notion that the hippies had in the 60s is BS.  Differences need to be acknowledged.  When differences between groups of people are acknowledged by all to the point where jokes can be made without offending any group, then, and only then, will we be free of hate.  

But on what basis are you assigning people to those groups? What evidence do you have for those assignations? Let's take "pollacks" or however one spells that. You agree, I assume, that there are no characteristics, beyond the general ones that define humanity, that all polish people share? What difference is there between Polish people and German people as a group, other than legal citizenship?

I'm not assigning anybody anything.  What's the difference between Polish and German people?  Polish people are Polish, and German people are German.  

I'm white, so I'm a white person.  

Here's some labels that can be applied to me:

White
Irish
German
Polish
Red Headed
Baltimorean
Marylander
Republican
Husband
Type O Donor
Notary Public
Beach Boys Fan
Right Handed
Baltimore Orioles Fan
Baltimore Ravens Fan

I'm not hiding from any labels.  I would only take offense if you labelled me something I'm not.  
I said aside from legal citizenship. The problem is not the label. I don't mind anyone calling a Polish person Polish. I mind them assuming other qualities about a Polish person simply because they are Polish.
Just like assuming a Beach Boys fan is a 60-year-old Goldwater Republican would be wrong. These assumptions are not just hurtful, they are also incorrect as generalities.

But let's think of it this way: there is certainly a Polish culture. It comprises numerous Polish subcultures. Every Polish individual has unique combinations of characteristics which, even if they identify with various subcultures, they may fit into to varying degrees. But at some level, there is still some over-arching "Polishness" in some sense--the sense of the most common aspects of Polish culture--even if it doesn't perfectly describe anyone. Polish means more than Polish. It also means Polish. Even if nobody is Polish.

It's a problem if one says the Polish have (or should have) fewer rights, should be given less opportunities, can't govern themselves, etc. But acknowledging that there is such a thing beyond citizenship? Should be pretty acceptable.
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the captain
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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2016, 10:16:29 AM »

Love You fan.
But again, it's just incorrect as a general statement. Why would one choose to persist in making an incorrect generalization? The anti-PC thing strikes me as just as contrary-for-the-sake-of-contrary as liking Love You, though I won't apply that generalization because I can correct myself, being human.

? I was just teasing KDS because I know he's not a Love You fan. The post you quoted had no generalizations whatsoever, nor mention of PCness, the anti-ness of which I've also already pointed out to be mostly baseless GOP hysteria.
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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2016, 10:17:05 AM »

It would be a boring life for historians (some might say it already is) if trying to understand the "why" of movements or groups were off limits. To do that, one must generalize what leads someone (or rather, groups of someones) to select a group they affiliate with.

Well, history writing is necessarily reductive but isn't there more of an awareness of that now and a good deal of contemporary academic writing about history attempts to avoid these sorts of generalizations?
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Emily
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2016, 10:17:48 AM »

It would be a boring life for historians (some might say it already is) if trying to understand the "why" of movements or groups were off limits. To do that, one must generalize what leads someone (or rather, groups of someones) to select a group they affiliate with.

Why did so many people embrace Christianity from the second and third centuries onward? Why did people explicitly or implicitly endorse Nazism? Why did people identify with the Tea Party?
One would study and find actual commonalities and be careful about assigning commonalities where they don't lie, if one were a good historian.
I actually wrote my thesis on why a distinct subset of people supported the Nazis. I studied it, after realizing that one could not properly generalize on the matter and found a variety of causes. I'm sure there are a variety of causes that drive people to the Tea Party. A good historian would use that as a premise and look to identify and understand some of the causes.
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Emily
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2016, 10:18:34 AM »

It would be a boring life for historians (some might say it already is) if trying to understand the "why" of movements or groups were off limits. To do that, one must generalize what leads someone (or rather, groups of someones) to select a group they affiliate with.

Why did so many people embrace Christianity from the second and third centuries onward? Why did people explicitly or implicitly endorse Nazism? Why did people identify with the Tea Party?
One would study and find actual commonalities and be careful about assigning commonalities where they don't lie, if one were a good historian.
I actually wrote my thesis on why a distinct subset of people supported the Nazis. I studied it, after realizing that one could not properly generalize on the matter and found a variety of causes. I'm sure there are a variety of causes that drive people to the Tea Party. A good historian would use that as a premise and look to identify
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KDS
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« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2016, 10:18:46 AM »

Emily,

I'm sorry, but I still think you're making too much of the label thing.  

It's called prejudging and it's human nature.

Back when I was online dating, if I told somebody that I liked The Beatles or The Moody Blues, the girl on the other end would sometimes make a joke that I was an old man.  Here is my usual reply to that: "LOL."  No harm, no foul.  

If you see me walking down the street, wearing jeans, black sneakers, and an Iron Maiden t-shirt, you'll probably come to the conclusion that I'm either a heavy metal fan or an Iron Maiden fan.  

So what?  

If I saw you walking down the street in the late 80s, wearing all black with doc martins, I'd probably think you're a goth who listens to The Cure.  Or if I saw you in the flower pants and flowered bra for a top, I'd probably think you're more of a pop fan who might've been into Madonna.  

Thinking that, and labeling you that way before knowing you, doesn't in any way mean that I hate you.  And hate is bigotry.  

As for the hipsters, it's not the look that turns me off.  It's when they open their mouths.  
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 10:21:59 AM by KDS » Logged
the captain
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« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2016, 10:20:59 AM »

Re the history responses: yes. But I'm not advocating against studying anything. In fact, I'm advocating discussion, and for those so inclined, study. That is literally what I've been talking about. I think there is such a thing as I've talked about in general conversation here. And no, I'm not going to go back to school and do any serious academic work about it. I don't care nearly enough. But I wish someone would. I'd love to read about it.

The thing is, the impression I'm getting from you is, we can't do that because there is no such thing. Case closed. The end.
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« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2016, 10:22:39 AM »

I don't want to turn this thread into a whole PC thread.  There's enough of that already in The Sandbox.  

But, I will say that comparing taking potshots at hipster culture is not even remotely close to bigotry.  

It's like comparing Mike Love's antics to that of a serial killer.  It's just not the same.  

And, Emily, if you think my taking shots at the hipster culture = bigotry, then you and I will not see eye to eye on the subject.  

I wish I had the exact quote.  But I remember hearing once that this whole "we're all the same" "the word's a rainbow" notion that the hippies had in the 60s is BS.  Differences need to be acknowledged.  When differences between groups of people are acknowledged by all to the point where jokes can be made without offending any group, then, and only then, will we be free of hate.  

But on what basis are you assigning people to those groups? What evidence do you have for those assignations? Let's take "pollacks" or however one spells that. You agree, I assume, that there are no characteristics, beyond the general ones that define humanity, that all polish people share? What difference is there between Polish people and German people as a group, other than legal citizenship?

I'm not assigning anybody anything.  What's the difference between Polish and German people?  Polish people are Polish, and German people are German.  

I'm white, so I'm a white person.  

Here's some labels that can be applied to me:

White
Irish
German
Polish
Red Headed
Baltimorean
Marylander
Republican
Husband
Type O Donor
Notary Public
Beach Boys Fan
Right Handed
Baltimore Orioles Fan
Baltimore Ravens Fan

I'm not hiding from any labels.  I would only take offense if you labelled me something I'm not.  
I said aside from legal citizenship. The problem is not the label. I don't mind anyone calling a Polish person Polish. I mind them assuming other qualities about a Polish person simply because they are Polish.
Just like assuming a Beach Boys fan is a 60-year-old Goldwater Republican would be wrong. These assumptions are not just hurtful, they are also incorrect as generalities.

But let's think of it this way: there is certainly a Polish culture. It comprises numerous Polish subcultures. Every Polish individual has unique combinations of characteristics which, even if they identify with various subcultures, they may fit into to varying degrees. But at some level, there is still some over-arching "Polishness" in some sense--the sense of the most common aspects of Polish culture--even if it doesn't perfectly describe anyone. Polish means more than Polish. It also means Polish. Even if nobody is Polish.

It's a problem if one says the Polish have (or should have) fewer rights, should be given less opportunities, can't govern themselves, etc. But acknowledging that there is such a thing beyond citizenship? Should be pretty acceptable.
But there isn't a Polish culture. There really isn't. There are 'subcultures' that have so little in common that they really aren't 'subcultures' of one culture. Poland is really a crossroads in which many very different (and frequently warring) people reside. There are many Polish citizens whose families have been Polish for many generations who won't call themselves 'Polish' because they associate so little with the general idea of what to be 'Polish' means. Because to be Polish is actually just to have a family circumstance that led to that being your citizenship. My grandmother, for instance, was Ukrainian, though Polish.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2016, 10:26:07 AM »

I was just lecturing on this very topic today. I talked about how it's strange that I'm supposed to see myself as belonging to a Canadian identity when in fact I live much closer to, say, Buffalo New York or Detroit, Michigan than I do to Vancouver, British Columbia. And I've been to both of those places far more than I've ever been to most other Canadian locations. In that sense, for me, the very notion of a Canadian culture is simply a construction. Such a thing does not genuinely exist.
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the captain
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« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2016, 10:27:01 AM »

I guess my half-Polish girlfriend and the Polish owner of the Polish arts organization for which she worked after college would argue that there's no Polish culture. I think they'd agree there is no single Polish culture, and instead say that there is a combination of diverse subcultures that add up to something unique.

There is such a thing as bread. Bread comprises flour, salt, fat, water, and yeast. Maybe milk with or instead of water. Maybe some flavorings, like herbs or something. Maybe no fat. But there is bread. Salt doesn't have to be like water or flour for them to compose bread. The bread is a thing that is the unique product of its components. A different bread is a different result of different components. But both breads exist. So do their components.
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« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2016, 10:28:17 AM »

I was just lecturing on this very topic today. I talked about how it's strange that I'm supposed to see myself as belonging to a Canadian identity when in fact I live much closer to, say, Buffalo New York or Detroit, Michigan than I do to Vancouver, British Columbia. And I've been to both of those places far more than I've ever been to most other Canadian locations. In that sense, for me, the very notion of a Canadian culture is simply a construction. Such a thing does not genuinely exist.

I wish I could have been there to hear it. I think it's a fascinating topic (as may be obvious by my oral diarrhea. And you're welcome for the visual.).
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« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2016, 10:29:08 AM »

I was just lecturing on this very topic today. I talked about how it's strange that I'm supposed to see myself as belonging to a Canadian identity when in fact I live much closer to, say, Buffalo New York or Detroit, Michigan than I do to Vancouver, British Columbia. And I've been to both of those places far more than I've ever been to most other Canadian locations. In that sense, for me, the very notion of a Canadian culture is simply a construction. Such a thing does not genuinely exist.

I wish I could have been there to hear it. I think it's a fascinating topic (as may be obvious by my oral diarrhea. And you're welcome for the visual.).

Damn it. Where were you when I needed slides?
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Emily
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« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2016, 10:30:03 AM »

Emily,

I'm sorry, but I still think you're making too much of the label thing.  

It's called prejudging and it's human nature.

Back when I was online dating, if I told somebody that I liked The Beatles or The Moody Blues, the girl on the other end would sometimes make a joke that I was an old man.  Here is my usual reply to that: "LOL."  No harm, no foul.  

If you see me walking down the street, wearing jeans, black sneakers, and an Iron Maiden t-shirt, you'll probably come to the conclusion that I'm either a heavy metal fan or an Iron Maiden fan.  

So what?  

If I saw you walking down the street in the late 80s, wearing all black with doc martins, I'd probably think you're a goth who listens to The Cure.  Or if I saw you in the flower pants and flowered bra for a top, I'd probably think you're more of a pop fan who might've been into Madonna.  

Thinking that, and labeling you that way before knowing you, doesn't in any way mean that I hate you.  And hate is bigotry.  

As for the hipsters, it's not the look that turns me off.  It's when they open their mouths.  
I agree that it's human nature. But we've been blessed with the sort of intelligence that allows us to override our instincts that have negative impact. With the Iron Maiden example, your T-shirt is you making a public statement about your taste. To guess that you like Iron Maiden would be reasonable. To guess why you like Iron Maiden would not.
I was neither particularly into Madonna, though I did find that one of her albums after that time was excellent. Or the Cure, though I do like a couple of their songs. You would be wrong. My clothes did not advertise my musical taste.
Again, why people choose to believe things that they know they have no support for is not comprehensible to me, especially when they know that this instinct has led to lots of bad, not just historically but in small ways every day.
If you've heard a few people saying dumb things, it's not right, morally or logically, to assume that everyone that you affiliate with those people for some superficial reason, shares those dumb thoughts. That's just dumb, too.
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Emily
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« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2016, 10:34:15 AM »

Re the history responses: yes. But I'm not advocating against studying anything. In fact, I'm advocating discussion, and for those so inclined, study. That is literally what I've been talking about. I think there is such a thing as I've talked about in general conversation here. And no, I'm not going to go back to school and do any serious academic work about it. I don't care nearly enough. But I wish someone would. I'd love to read about it.

The thing is, the impression I'm getting from you is, we can't do that because there is no such thing. Case closed. The end.
Not at all. I don't mind discussion. But if someone makes a blanket statement about the motives of an entire group of people defined by some superficial qualities, I will point out that it's illogical and is the type of grouping that humans do, probably evolutionarily because of the benefits of affiliating with a group and thus having allies and a linked society around you because humans don't do well alone, but is not beneficial in the modern world in any way. Some of our instincts were once useful but are now not and should be overcome with our intellect.
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« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2016, 10:38:02 AM »

I guess my half-Polish girlfriend and the Polish owner of the Polish arts organization for which she worked after college would argue that there's no Polish culture. I think they'd agree there is no single Polish culture, and instead say that there is a combination of diverse subcultures that add up to something unique.

There is such a thing as bread. Bread comprises flour, salt, fat, water, and yeast. Maybe milk with or instead of water. Maybe some flavorings, like herbs or something. Maybe no fat. But there is bread. Salt doesn't have to be like water or flour for them to compose bread. The bread is a thing that is the unique product of its components. A different bread is a different result of different components. But both breads exist. So do their components.
But I think you are thinking there's more commonality among Polish citizens than there is. They do not have as much in common as different breads. The only commonality you will find, other than the general aspects of being human, is that they are Polish citizens (or their recent ancestors were.)
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KDS
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« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2016, 10:40:11 AM »

Emily,

You're asking why people believe in things for which they have no support.  I think you perfectly summed up the notion of religion.  But, that's another topic.  

But, I also don't understand how you can be against me putting labels on people and somehow say there's no such thing as Polish culture.  
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« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2016, 10:43:11 AM »

Emily,

You're asking why people believe in things for which they have no support.  I think you perfectly summed up the notion of religion.  But, that's another topic.  

But, I also don't understand how you can be against me putting labels on people and somehow say there's no such thing as Polish culture.  
Because there REALLY isn't such a thing as Polish culture. There really really isn't. In Poland, as in the US, there's a hegemonic group that thinks that their culture is the Polish culture, but there are many Polish people who are not part of that culture at all and are 'racially' rejected by that culture. So to assume that someone being Polish means that they are a member of that culture is just wrong. And sticking with it is choosing to be wrong.
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the captain
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« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2016, 10:43:20 AM »

To guess that you like Iron Maiden would be reasonable. To guess why you like Iron Maiden would not.


I'm going to try to explain where I'm coming from again. I might fail, and it may well be because I am really just riffing. Also drinking.

You're definitely correct that it would be reasonable to guess that KDS likes Iron Maiden. It would also be unreasonable to guess why he likes Iron Maiden. But if you knew KDS to have previously disliked Iron Maiden during their peak popularity, but begun wearing their shirts and buying their albums during their lowest popularity, mightn't you be interested in that? And further, at the same time, you noticed him saying that while yes, he likes Poison, he actually only likes their later stuff--Ritchie Kotzen or Blues Saraceno eras--not the hits. Oh, and while much is made of Shout at the Devil, it's Saints of Los Angeles that represents the band at their best. You find similar results in other circumstances as you get to know KDS better: his clothes, his food, his books. And in each case, you detect an anti-populist smugness. In fact, he's got a group of friends who all more or less act similarly, though different on certain specifics here and there.

You're telling a friend about this, and he has a friend in that same group: she's the same way, though not so into metal. [I'm cutting it short because I think we get the picture.]

Once there are sufficient observations to make one suspect there are people who seem to be largely contrarian in all their tastes, who look down their nose at all things popular seemingly because they're popular,, mightn't you be interested in wondering what drives that behavior (or state of being, or whatever)? And in naming that behavior? In getting to the bottom of it?

Or would you deny that there is any "there" there? That KDS really, truly means every word he says and his tastes are what they are from the bottom of his heart? That it's a coincidence how they evolve inversely with how pop culture evolves? And that his group of friends have all individually and independently done the same thing?

That's all I'm saying. It's observable, it's suspicious, and it's interesting.

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« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2016, 10:44:36 AM »

the notion of religion.  But, that's another topic.  


It would be my favorite one. Also I suspect it would go even worse than this one is.
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« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2016, 10:45:56 AM »

To guess that you like Iron Maiden would be reasonable. To guess why you like Iron Maiden would not.


I'm going to try to explain where I'm coming from again. I might fail, and it may well be because I am really just riffing. Also drinking.

You're definitely correct that it would be reasonable to guess that KDS likes Iron Maiden. It would also be unreasonable to guess why he likes Iron Maiden. But if you knew KDS to have previously disliked Iron Maiden during their peak popularity, but begun wearing their shirts and buying their albums during their lowest popularity, mightn't you be interested in that? And further, at the same time, you noticed him saying that while yes, he likes Poison, he actually only likes their later stuff--Ritchie Kotzen or Blues Saraceno eras--not the hits. Oh, and while much is made of Shout at the Devil, it's Saints of Los Angeles that represents the band at their best. You find similar results in other circumstances as you get to know KDS better: his clothes, his food, his books. And in each case, you detect an anti-populist smugness. In fact, he's got a group of friends who all more or less act similarly, though different on certain specifics here and there.

You're telling a friend about this, and he has a friend in that same group: she's the same way, though not so into metal. [I'm cutting it short because I think we get the picture.]

Once there are sufficient observations to make one suspect there are people who seem to be largely contrarian in all their tastes, who look down their nose at all things popular seemingly because they're popular,, mightn't you be interested in wondering what drives that behavior (or state of being, or whatever)? And in naming that behavior? In getting to the bottom of it?

Or would you deny that there is any "there" there? That KDS really, truly means every word he says and his tastes are what they are from the bottom of his heart? That it's a coincidence how they evolve inversely with how pop culture evolves? And that his group of friends have all individually and independently done the same thing?

That's all I'm saying. It's observable, it's suspicious, and it's interesting.


I was just responding but my dog obviously has to pee right now, so I'll be back.
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« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2016, 10:47:14 AM »

the notion of religion.  But, that's another topic.  


It would be my favorite one. Also I suspect it would go even worse than this one is.

Is this going badly? Compared to some other conversations happening, I feel like I'm sitting at the Algonquin Roundtable here.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 10:51:51 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
the captain
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« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2016, 10:53:47 AM »

the notion of religion.  But, that's another topic.  


It would be my favorite one. Also I suspect it would go even worse than this one is.

Is this going badly? Compared to some other conversations happening here, I feel like I'm sitting at the Algonquin Roundtable here.

Not nastily or anything. Just that if half the participants seem to be refuting the existence (or acceptability of positing the existence) of the subject, it's a short thread.
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« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2016, 10:57:16 AM »

Captain,

Saints of Los Angeles?  Shout at the Devil?  The only good thing Motley Crue ever did was the lone album with John Corabi.  

As for Iron Maiden, I prefer their earlier punkier leanings with Paul DiAnno.  

Poison.....bunch of posers.  You're right luckily Ritchie Kotzen came in to teach them some real music.  

Plus, Jaws the Revenge is much better than Jaws.  

New Coke was the best soda ever created.  Wish they never brought back Coca Cola Classic

The Simpsons didn't even become funny until Season 21.

The Office was much better after Steve Carell left.

Thank God they made a third Hangover movie.  It really completed the saga in a most satisfying way.  

 Grin

In case the smily don't sell it, all of these points are jokes. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 10:58:44 AM by KDS » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2016, 10:59:24 AM »

the notion of religion.  But, that's another topic.  


It would be my favorite one. Also I suspect it would go even worse than this one is.

Is this going badly? Compared to some other conversations happening here, I feel like I'm sitting at the Algonquin Roundtable here.

Not nastily or anything. Just that if half the participants seem to be refuting the existence (or acceptability of positing the existence) of the subject, it's a short thread.
Undecided sorry I've been brusque. Each time I post, there have been 3 or 4 already posted other comments, so I've been typing to quickly to be considerate. Maybe I need to change my methods.
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« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2016, 11:00:20 AM »

Captain,

Saints of Los Angeles?  Shout at the Devil?  The only good thing Motley Crue ever did was the lone album with John Corabi.  

As for Iron Maiden, I prefer their earlier punkier leanings with Paul DiAnno.  

Poison.....bunch of posers.  You're right luckily Ritchie Kotzen came in to teach them some real music.  

Plus, Jaws the Revenge is much better than Jaws.  

New Coke was the best soda ever created.  Wish they never brought back Coca Cola Classic

The Simpsons didn't even become funny until Season 21.

The Office was much better after Steve Carell left.

Thank God they made a third Hangover movie.  It really completed the saga in a most satisfying way.  

 Grin

In case the smily don't sell it, all of these points are jokes. 

OK, but here's where I get confused because you seem the points above seem to at least imply those those views are wrong. Am I incorrect in assuming that?
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