Hipsterism

[the captain]

Have at it.

(I thought there was a thread but there doesn't seem to be. Probably was a RR thread.)

[the captain]

Sure enough, an RR thread. And much older than I thought, at that. 2010. Time flies when you're an aging hipster.

http://s3.excoboard.com/therecordroom/29212/737296

[KDS]

At the risk of causing historical horrors, I'll post here about hipster culture and my issues with it.

In North Baltimore, in the last five years or so, hipsterism has spread like wildfire.  

Here are some things you'll commonly overhear should you venture to this part of town:

"I don't have a television.  I think I'm a better person for it."  

"I don't listen to <insert band here>.  It's too mainstream."  

Basically, the modern hipster is somebody who will look down on people who like popular things due to their "superior" tastes.  

The ironic thing is, that as hipster culture spreads, they are turning into the very thing they hate - conformists.  

[the captain]

I'll try to be a little more coherent in my first substantive post in this thread than I've been so far on the topic, but as a preview:
 - I don't think it's wrong to discuss "hipsterism" (or any other category) as long as one understands that obviously no complex descriptor (e.g., an overall identity, not a single characteristic) perfectly describes each, or maybe even any, member of any complex descriptor.
 - I don't think hipsters are necessarily consciously lying to others about their tastes.
 - I think the topic might be best thought of as cliques in high school; initial rough categorization might be entirely genuine, but there is a certain amount of conscious or subconscious refinement of identities going on in order to secure position within the group.

[Emily]

At the risk of causing historical horrors, I'll post here about hipster culture and my issues with it.

In North Baltimore, in the last five years or so, hipsterism has spread like wildfire.  

Here are some things you'll commonly overhear should you venture to this part of town:

"I don't have a television.  I think I'm a better person for it."  

"I don't listen to <insert band here>.  It's too mainstream."  

Basically, the modern hipster is somebody who will look down on people who like popular things due to their "superior" tastes.  

The ironic thing is, that as hipster culture spreads, they are turning into the very thing they hate - conformists.  

Despite your sarcasm, I stand by my statement. You are taking a few quotes and generalizing to a population. You are making inferences from those quotes to imply nasty negative conclusions when the quotes could be interpreted otherwise. To do so is to follow the exact same instinct and way of thinking that causes bigotry. Indeed it is bigotry. It's irrational and it's something that with the thousands of years of thought and history that humans, with our amazing brains, can use to our benefit, should consciously work against. When I find myself thinking that way, which I do sometimes (and I do think it's an instinct) I try to correct myself. It's almost always wrong and it creates a great deal of damage.

[KDS]

At the risk of causing historical horrors, I'll post here about hipster culture and my issues with it.

In North Baltimore, in the last five years or so, hipsterism has spread like wildfire.  

Here are some things you'll commonly overhear should you venture to this part of town:

"I don't have a television.  I think I'm a better person for it."  

"I don't listen to <insert band here>.  It's too mainstream."  

Basically, the modern hipster is somebody who will look down on people who like popular things due to their "superior" tastes.  

The ironic thing is, that as hipster culture spreads, they are turning into the very thing they hate - conformists.  

Despite your sarcasm, I stand by my statement. You are taking a few quotes and generalizing to a population. You are making inferences from those quotes to imply nasty negative conclusions when the quotes could be interpreted otherwise. To do so is to follow the exact same instinct and way of thinking that causes bigotry. Indeed it is bigotry. It's irrational and it's something that with the thousands of years of thought and history that humans, with our amazing brains, can use to our benefit, should consciously work against. When I find myself thinking that way, which I do sometimes (and I do think it's an instinct) I try to correct myself. It's almost always wrong and it creates a great deal of damage.

Comparing my comments about hipsterism to bigotry is downright laughable. 

This kind of ultra PC attitude is what is slowly killing America.  You can speak out against illegal immigration because "that's racist against Mexicans."  You can't check a Muslim at airport security because "that's racist."  Where does it end?

I'm a red-headed male of Irish, German, and Polish decent.

When South Park did an episode where they said gingers have no souls, did I write an angry letter?  No.

Am I trying to get Lucky the Leprechaun off cereal boxes because it's offensive to my heritage?  No

When The Simpsons make jokes comparing Germans to Nazis, do I boycott the show?  No

When somebody tells a Pollock joke do I tell them they're violating my safe space?  No 

[the captain]

This kind of ultra PC attitude is what is slowly killing America. 

I totally disagree with that point, though I'll grant and have conceded elsewhere that a certain amount of "over-PCness" (because this thread needs a luther-created word) is annoying, unnecessary, and even absurd and counterproductive.

And I humbly--there's a word I don't use much--ask that we all take KDS's overarching point in the context of the thread rather than debate each of his specific examples, which would be better fits in political threads.

[Emily]

At the risk of causing historical horrors, I'll post here about hipster culture and my issues with it.

In North Baltimore, in the last five years or so, hipsterism has spread like wildfire.  

Here are some things you'll commonly overhear should you venture to this part of town:

"I don't have a television.  I think I'm a better person for it."  

"I don't listen to <insert band here>.  It's too mainstream."  

Basically, the modern hipster is somebody who will look down on people who like popular things due to their "superior" tastes.  

The ironic thing is, that as hipster culture spreads, they are turning into the very thing they hate - conformists.  

Despite your sarcasm, I stand by my statement. You are taking a few quotes and generalizing to a population. You are making inferences from those quotes to imply nasty negative conclusions when the quotes could be interpreted otherwise. To do so is to follow the exact same instinct and way of thinking that causes bigotry. Indeed it is bigotry. It's irrational and it's something that with the thousands of years of thought and history that humans, with our amazing brains, can use to our benefit, should consciously work against. When I find myself thinking that way, which I do sometimes (and I do think it's an instinct) I try to correct myself. It's almost always wrong and it creates a great deal of damage.

Comparing my comments about hipsterism to bigotry is downright laughable. 

This kind of ultra PC attitude is what is slowly killing America.  You can speak out against illegal immigration because "that's racist against Mexicans."  You can't check a Muslim at airport security because "that's racist."  Where does it end?

I'm a red-headed male of Irish, German, and Polish decent.

When South Park did an episode where they said gingers have no souls, did I write an angry letter?  No.

Am I trying to get Lucky the Leprechaun off cereal boxes because it's offensive to my heritage?  No

When The Simpsons make jokes comparing Germans to Nazis, do I boycott the show?  No

When somebody tells a Pollock joke do I tell them they're violating my safe space?  No 

The whole "PC" thing is similar. It's a way to generalize and dismiss and mock people with a label, like "hipsterism." I'm concerned that so many people will fight to defend bigotry rather than fight to eradicate it, even within themselves.

[Emily]

In 1988 I don't think the word "hipster" was used, but around that time I tended to wear black (alternatively really bright flowery clashing Betsey Johnson stuff). You might imagine: flowered wide-leg pants with platform shoes and a differently flowered bra for a top; or a black mid-thigh skirt, black mid-calf leggings with doctor marten's and a black gap pocket T. I had a lot of piercings. My hair when longer was usually blue or cherry red or something, when shorter was platinum dreadlocks.

What would you assume my tastes in music and art were and why?

[the captain]

I don't think it's bigotry to try to understand people's patterns of thinking, or drivers of decision-making. There are people--based on my first-hand experience, my actual, direct observation--whose tastes lie almost entirely outside of consensus tastes: music, clothing, literature, movies, whatever. If there is a unifying thread that makes this reasonable, it's not hipsterism as I define it. So (I think it was) Andrew Hickey's point, that someone may well dislike popular music if s/he didn't like the sound of electric guitar, for example, without being a hipster, doesn't apply here.

Rather, this is someone whose tastes seem unified almost only by their outsider status ... and which change correspondingly with what is generally understood to be outsider. Oh, '80s music is fashionable? Time to re-embrace psychedelic rock sounds. Etc.

This isn't meant to say that hipsters are an organized, conscious group of anti-establishment figures we need to corral and exterminate. It's just an interesting phenomenon that deserves some thought, in the same way it is valid to think about what makes people vote a certain way, or more accurately, self-identify with one or another group.

[KDS]

I don't want to turn this thread into a whole PC thread.  There's enough of that already in The Sandbox.  

But, I will say that comparing taking potshots at hipster culture is not even remotely close to bigotry.  

It's like comparing Mike Love's antics to that of a serial killer.  It's just not the same.  

And, Emily, if you think my taking shots at the hipster culture = bigotry, then you and I will not see eye to eye on the subject.  

I wish I had the exact quote.  But I remember hearing once that this whole "we're all the same" "the word's a rainbow" notion that the hippies had in the 60s is BS.  Differences need to be acknowledged.  When differences between groups of people are acknowledged by all to the point where jokes can be made without offending any group, then, and only then, will we be free of hate.  

[KDS]

In 1988 I don't think the word "hipster" was used, but around that time I tended to wear black (alternatively really bright flowery clashing Betsey Johnson stuff). You might imagine: flowered wide-leg pants with platform shoes and a differently flowered bra for a top; or a black mid-thigh skirt, black mid-calf leggings with doctor marten's and a black gap pocket T. I had a lot of piercings. My hair when longer was usually blue or cherry red or something, when shorter was platinum dreadlocks.

What would you assume my tastes in music and art were and why?

Bon Jovi? 

[Emily]

I don't think it's bigotry to try to understand people's patterns of thinking, or drivers of decision-making. There are people--based on my first-hand experience, my actual, direct observation--whose tastes lie almost entirely outside of consensus tastes: music, clothing, literature, movies, whatever. If there is a unifying thread that makes this reasonable, it's not hipsterism as I define it. So (I think it was) Andrew Hickey's point, that someone may well dislike popular music if s/he didn't like the sound of electric guitar, for example, without being a hipster, doesn't apply here.

Rather, this is someone whose tastes seem unified almost only by their outsider status ... and which change correspondingly with what is generally understood to be outsider. Oh, '80s music is fashionable? Time to re-embrace psychedelic rock sounds. Etc.

This isn't meant to say that hipsters are an organized, conscious group of anti-establishment figures we need to corral and exterminate. It's just an interesting phenomenon that deserves some thought, in the same way it is valid to think about what makes people vote a certain way, or more accurately, self-identify with one or another group.

To try to understand is different than to take a few superficial characteristics of an individual and make broad assumptions. Or to take the fact that they don't like mainstream things and make assumptions about why. Specific to your example, what drives the choices might be more complex than a simple bouncing to whatever is unfashionable.
Bigotry does not always lead to a desire to corral and exterminate, but it does always lead to misunderstanding, because it contains a refusal to recognize individuals for who they are; an insistence on making assumptions based on superficialities.
You can validly think about what makes someone vote a certain way or dress a certain way, but to say "this person voted for Donald Trump - therefore this person supports (put in any single thing Trump supports)" would be illogical. The same as "this person dresses a certain way, therefore this person thinks this other way" is illogical. It's a stupidity and a kind of stupidity that leads to all kinds of bad, even though I think it's instinctive.

[Emily]

In 1988 I don't think the word "hipster" was used, but around that time I tended to wear black (alternatively really bright flowery clashing Betsey Johnson stuff). You might imagine: flowered wide-leg pants with platform shoes and a differently flowered bra for a top; or a black mid-thigh skirt, black mid-calf leggings with doctor marten's and a black gap pocket T. I had a lot of piercings. My hair when longer was usually blue or cherry red or something, when shorter was platinum dreadlocks.

What would you assume my tastes in music and art were and why?

Bon Jovi? 

Nice duck. I actually had/have some fondness for the Jon Bon.

[KDS]

In 1988 I don't think the word "hipster" was used, but around that time I tended to wear black (alternatively really bright flowery clashing Betsey Johnson stuff). You might imagine: flowered wide-leg pants with platform shoes and a differently flowered bra for a top; or a black mid-thigh skirt, black mid-calf leggings with doctor marten's and a black gap pocket T. I had a lot of piercings. My hair when longer was usually blue or cherry red or something, when shorter was platinum dreadlocks.

What would you assume my tastes in music and art were and why?

Bon Jovi? 

Nice duck. I actually had/have some fondness for the Jon Bon.

Figured I'd throw in a little humor as we obviously have completely different viewpoints........

Except about Bon Jovi.  I like a lot of their pre 2005 material, and even saw them in concert back in 2001.  Great show. 

[Emily]

I don't want to turn this thread into a whole PC thread.  There's enough of that already in The Sandbox.  

But, I will say that comparing taking potshots at hipster culture is not even remotely close to bigotry.  

It's like comparing Mike Love's antics to that of a serial killer.  It's just not the same.  

And, Emily, if you think my taking shots at the hipster culture = bigotry, then you and I will not see eye to eye on the subject.  

I wish I had the exact quote.  But I remember hearing once that this whole "we're all the same" "the word's a rainbow" notion that the hippies had in the 60s is BS.  Differences need to be acknowledged.  When differences between groups of people are acknowledged by all to the point where jokes can be made without offending any group, then, and only then, will we be free of hate.  

But on what basis are you assigning people to those groups? What evidence do you have for those assignations? Let's take "pollacks" or however one spells that. You agree, I assume, that there are no characteristics, beyond the general ones that define humanity, that all polish people share? What difference is there between Polish people and German people as a group, other than legal citizenship?

[the captain]

Let's take a different term. Were there hippies, and if so, could one somewhat coherently describe / define them? (I would say there is such a thing, even though there is no single, defined set of characteristics that make someone a hippie. For that matter, ditto for Christian, or any other complex descriptor.) If there is such a thing that we can acknowledge as actually existing, is there something wrong with trying to consider what might lead to individuals being attracted to hippie-ism?

There are groups. The groups comprise individuals with some shared set of characteristics, even though maybe no two individuals within it share every characteristic. That latter fact doesn't make it inappropriate to discuss or try to understand the groups. It's not bigotry to do that. It is bigotry to then assume every individual within the group does indeed share the characteristics, and damn, do they ever suck, and yes, we need to nip this in the bud, blah blah you get the point. But I'm not trying to do that. I'm just saying, I think there absolutely is a thing that we can call hipsterism, and I find it fascinating. No single trait defines it, and not everyone fits the general set of traits perfectly. But that is the same as is the case with every group.

If we can't agree on whether there can be such a group defined communally, then there's no sense in trying to go further into what pushes or pulls people into it.

[Emily]

In 1988 I don't think the word "hipster" was used, but around that time I tended to wear black (alternatively really bright flowery clashing Betsey Johnson stuff). You might imagine: flowered wide-leg pants with platform shoes and a differently flowered bra for a top; or a black mid-thigh skirt, black mid-calf leggings with doctor marten's and a black gap pocket T. I had a lot of piercings. My hair when longer was usually blue or cherry red or something, when shorter was platinum dreadlocks.

What would you assume my tastes in music and art were and why?

Bon Jovi?  

Nice duck. I actually had/have some fondness for the Jon Bon.

Figured I'd throw in a little humor as we obviously have completely different viewpoints........

Except about Bon Jovi.  I like a lot of their pre 2005 material, and even saw them in concert back in 2001.  Great show.  

Among my friends that would be similarly categorized by others based on our outward appearance, we had a big range of musical tastes and approaches to art and political opinions. There were Republicans, Democrats, Anarchists, Libertarians, Apoliticals. There were Bon Jovi fans, metal fans, pop fans, hard core fans, disco fans, "alternative" fans. There were a number of art school students who had big disagreements on theory, etc. I was into literature for the most part and paid not much attention to the studio arts, other than to support my friends. There are many different reasons for choices of dress and society. In this case, I think the reasons were a sense of alienation from the mainstream. But the sense of alienation might be caused by any number of factors and led to an extremely diverse population. A number of the kids I hung out with were on the streets escaping abuse and had no particular art or culture attitudes, they just found people to be with. Some just thought it was cool, some were serious revolutionary types, some just found it a creative microculture, interesting for their artistic thinking.
To make assumptions about what goes on with a person based on something so superficial is really bad, I think.

eta: I said, "In this case, I think the reasons were a sense of alienation from the mainstream" but even that wouldn't be true. I can think of several who just made friends with who they made friends with due to coincidence of geography and timing, and like most people, they adopted the clothing of their peers.

[KDS]

I don't want to turn this thread into a whole PC thread.  There's enough of that already in The Sandbox.  

But, I will say that comparing taking potshots at hipster culture is not even remotely close to bigotry.  

It's like comparing Mike Love's antics to that of a serial killer.  It's just not the same.  

And, Emily, if you think my taking shots at the hipster culture = bigotry, then you and I will not see eye to eye on the subject.  

I wish I had the exact quote.  But I remember hearing once that this whole "we're all the same" "the word's a rainbow" notion that the hippies had in the 60s is BS.  Differences need to be acknowledged.  When differences between groups of people are acknowledged by all to the point where jokes can be made without offending any group, then, and only then, will we be free of hate.  

But on what basis are you assigning people to those groups? What evidence do you have for those assignations? Let's take "pollacks" or however one spells that. You agree, I assume, that there are no characteristics, beyond the general ones that define humanity, that all polish people share? What difference is there between Polish people and German people as a group, other than legal citizenship?

I'm not assigning anybody anything.  What's the difference between Polish and German people?  Polish people are Polish, and German people are German.  

I'm white, so I'm a white person.  

Here's some labels that can be applied to me:

White
Irish
German
Polish
Red Headed
Baltimorean
Marylander
Republican
Husband
Type O Donor
Notary Public
Beach Boys Fan
Right Handed
Baltimore Orioles Fan
Baltimore Ravens Fan

I'm not hiding from any labels.  I would only take offense if you labelled me something I'm not.  

[the captain]

Love You fan.

[Emily]

Let's take a different term. Were there hippies, and if so, could one somewhat coherently describe / define them? (I would say there is such a thing, even though there is no single, defined set of characteristics that make someone a hippie. For that matter, ditto for Christian, or any other complex descriptor.) If there is such a thing that we can acknowledge as actually existing, is there something wrong with trying to consider what might lead to individuals being attracted to hippie-ism?

There are groups. The groups comprise individuals with some shared set of characteristics, even though maybe no two individuals within it share every characteristic. That latter fact doesn't make it inappropriate to discuss or try to understand the groups. It's not bigotry to do that. It is bigotry to then assume every individual within the group does indeed share the characteristics, and damn, do they ever suck, and yes, we need to nip this in the bud, blah blah you get the point. But I'm not trying to do that. I'm just saying, I think there absolutely is a thing that we can call hipsterism, and I find it fascinating. No single trait defines it, and not everyone fits the general set of traits perfectly. But that is the same as is the case with every group.

If we can't agree on whether there can be such a group defined communally, then there's no sense in trying to go further into what pushes or pulls people into it.

It is bigotry to assume that any individual, based on one superficial characteristic, has another characteristic. Which is not the same as finding, after study, that some people who share a characteristic share it for common reasons then thinking about what part that reason played in the times and culture.
Those are two different things.
As I stated in my last comment, I don't think you can generalize what leads someone to select a group they affiliate with. Even something like a political party, which has publicly stated agendas, contains people with a vast range of motives for being a member.

[Emily]

I don't want to turn this thread into a whole PC thread.  There's enough of that already in The Sandbox.  

But, I will say that comparing taking potshots at hipster culture is not even remotely close to bigotry.  

It's like comparing Mike Love's antics to that of a serial killer.  It's just not the same.  

And, Emily, if you think my taking shots at the hipster culture = bigotry, then you and I will not see eye to eye on the subject.  

I wish I had the exact quote.  But I remember hearing once that this whole "we're all the same" "the word's a rainbow" notion that the hippies had in the 60s is BS.  Differences need to be acknowledged.  When differences between groups of people are acknowledged by all to the point where jokes can be made without offending any group, then, and only then, will we be free of hate.  

But on what basis are you assigning people to those groups? What evidence do you have for those assignations? Let's take "pollacks" or however one spells that. You agree, I assume, that there are no characteristics, beyond the general ones that define humanity, that all polish people share? What difference is there between Polish people and German people as a group, other than legal citizenship?

I'm not assigning anybody anything.  What's the difference between Polish and German people?  Polish people are Polish, and German people are German.  

I'm white, so I'm a white person.  

Here's some labels that can be applied to me:

White
Irish
German
Polish
Red Headed
Baltimorean
Marylander
Republican
Husband
Type O Donor
Notary Public
Beach Boys Fan
Right Handed
Baltimore Orioles Fan
Baltimore Ravens Fan

I'm not hiding from any labels.  I would only take offense if you labelled me something I'm not.  

I said aside from legal citizenship. The problem is not the label. I don't mind anyone calling a Polish person Polish. I mind them assuming other qualities about a Polish person simply because they are Polish.
Just like assuming a Beach Boys fan is a 60-year-old Goldwater Republican would be wrong. These assumptions are not just hurtful, they are also incorrect as generalities.

[KDS]

Love You fan.

You must be a hipster.  

 

I label myself as a

Love You Middle Ground Likes Some of the Songs, but Not the Album as a Whole Fan

[the captain]

It would be a boring life for historians (some might say it already is) if trying to understand the "why" of movements or groups were off limits. To do that, one must generalize what leads someone (or rather, groups of someones) to select a group they affiliate with.

Why did so many people embrace Christianity from the second and third centuries onward? Why did people explicitly or implicitly endorse Nazism? Why did people identify with the Tea Party?

[Emily]

Love You fan.

But again, it's just incorrect as a general statement. Why would one choose to persist in making an incorrect generalization? The anti-PC thing strikes me as just as contrary-for-the-sake-of-contrary as liking Love You, though I won't apply that generalization because I can correct myself, being human.