What if Carl never returned to the band in the early 80s?

[CenturyDeprived]

Would the band have still gone on as long as it did? Would M&B have just taken over the reigns much sooner?

I have to think that part of Carl's return was due to feeling he had to be back to in some way oversee both of his brothers' conditions. Such a tragic, inescapable situation he was in.

I wonder if he ever seriously contemplated leaving the band for good? And also, what if his album had been a big hit? How would that have affected his decision to return? One could argue that his solo albums are only ok, and not stellar, because he wasn't trying his hardest to make a really, REALLY good solo record (like Denny did) , because of the tethers he faced. A huge hit record could have just made decisions even harder for him.

[clack]

What evidence is there that Carl ever had the writing chops for a successful solo career? I mean, he wrote some good songs, but 10 good songs written over a 30 year period does not a solo career make.

[adamghost]

I'll give you an alternate universe theory that's plausible:

"I Will Always Love You" is included on KTSA and becomes a big A/C hit in 1980.  I've heard it, and Ed Roach will back me up on this as he had the same reaction - it was a song with a Carl vocal that was perfectly in sync with early 1980s A/C (which is why it didn't make the album - it didn't fit, plus it was an outside writing situation).

With that as a springboard, you could conceive a solo career for Carl in the A/C world amongst the Olivia Newton-Johns and Chicagos of the world.  He was halfway there, anyway.  He probably didn't have the writing chops but he definitely had the voice.  That could give him enough of a sustainable career away from the BBs - and a hit of KTSA might have altered the BBs fortunes quite significantly, since "Come Go With Me" and "Medley" probably still happen in '81, and the commercial way forward as a Carl-fronted A/C band would have been clearer.

I think at the end of the day though, when all is said and done - the Beach Boys was just a much easier way to make a living.  More money, less of the stress of having to take everything on by yourself.  It seems likely to me that Carl would have still wound up back with the ground eventually, doing what he did, which is distancing himself to a large degree from the drama, showing up, exerting quality control, collecting his pay, and heading back to his life.

[Lonely Summer]

I'm a big fan of both solo albums and the songs Carl wrote, so yes, I think he had the writing chops. I doubt his goal, though, was to have a long career outside the BB's. In fact, he said so in one interview at the time of "Youngblood" - "it's not my goal to have 10 Carl Wilson albums". He indicated he would be more interested in collaborating with other artists, which is what he eventually did with Gerry Beckley and Robert Lamm. But touring solo also gave him renewed respect for what Michael (as Carl always called him) did as front man of the BB's. Carl had the voice to front a band, but he didn't have the outgoing personality to project to a crowd as his cousin did. So I think he always planned to return to the group. I believe Carl was the main driving force behind the 1985 album, and he had hopes that would revive their recording career. When that album didn't set the charts on fire, the other guys seemed to lose interest in recording more than a couple singles per year. And then all the stuff with Brian and Landy was happening, and I just don't think Carl had the energy to do a lot more at that point. He was drained, emotionally, physically, everything. But it's a nice dream to think what if Carl had become a solo star ala Phil Collins, and the demand for more records, more concerts from him would take him out of the BB's orbit long enough for them to look at his success and say "darn! why aren't we doing that?"

[Matt H]

I'll give you an alternate universe theory that's plausible:

"I Will Always Love You" is included on KTSA and becomes a big A/C hit in 1980.  I've heard it, and Ed Roach will back me up on this as he had the same reaction - it was a song with a Carl vocal that was perfectly in sync with early 1980s A/C (which is why it didn't make the album - it didn't fit, plus it was an outside writing situation).

I never understood the outside writing situation.  This is used for why "Surfer Suzie" wasn't released as well.  But on MIU they did "Winds of Change," which was an outside writing situation, and they did covers during this time too, which I believe "I Will Always Love You" would be, like "School Days," "Peggy Sue," and "Come Go With Me."

I don't think I have ever heard this outtake, how did it not fit?  I would argue that "When Girls Get Together" doesn't fit at all either, but they included that.

[drbeachboy]

I'm a big fan of both solo albums and the songs Carl wrote, so yes, I think he had the writing chops. I doubt his goal, though, was to have a long career outside the BB's. In fact, he said so in one interview at the time of "Youngblood" - "it's not my goal to have 10 Carl Wilson albums". He indicated he would be more interested in collaborating with other artists, which is what he eventually did with Gerry Beckley and Robert Lamm. But touring solo also gave him renewed respect for what Michael (as Carl always called him) did as front man of the BB's. Carl had the voice to front a band, but he didn't have the outgoing personality to project to a crowd as his cousin did. So I think he always planned to return to the group. I believe Carl was the main driving force behind the 1985 album, and he had hopes that would revive their recording career. When that album didn't set the charts on fire, the other guys seemed to lose interest in recording more than a couple singles per year. And then all the stuff with Brian and Landy was happening, and I just don't think Carl had the energy to do a lot more at that point. He was drained, emotionally, physically, everything. But it's a nice dream to think what if Carl had become a solo star ala Phil Collins, and the demand for more records, more concerts from him would take him out of the BB's orbit long enough for them to look at his success and say "darn! why aren't we doing that?"

For one thing, they didn't record more than few single per year, because they didn't have a long-term record company deal in those years.

[HeyJude]

Would the band have still gone on as long as it did? Would M&B have just taken over the reigns much sooner?

I have to think that part of Carl's return was due to feeling he had to be back to in some way oversee both of his brothers' conditions. Such a tragic, inescapable situation he was in.

I wonder if he ever seriously contemplated leaving the band for good? And also, what if his album had been a big hit? How would that have affected his decision to return? One could argue that his solo albums are only ok, and not stellar, because he wasn't trying his hardest to make a really, REALLY good solo record (like Denny did) , because of the tethers he faced. A huge hit record could have just made decisions even harder for him.

Carl made a very prescient comment during that 1989 European interview that someone translated and posted here a couple of years ago. He predicted that Mike would still be going in some version of the "Beach Boys" long after everyone else was gone. I don't think he knew exactly what that scenario was going to entail, but I think he just sensed that either due to death, or retirement, or disinterest, or business machinations, everyone else would be gone. And he turned out to pretty much be correct.

I think the touring band was headed down a road of stale setlists with even *more* oldies (when Carl left in 1981 is when they started adding stuff like "Surfin' Safari" and "Surfin'" back into the setlist, edging out even contemporary stuff from very recent albums), and haggard performances and not enough rehearsals.

If Carl hadn't returned, I think the band would have kept going on autopilot, eventually without Dennis and Brian, and would have quickly been a true "oldies" act. Not in the way they became, which was still doing nice-sized venues and a lot of shows per year, but doing dinner shows in Laughlin, NV and package oldies shows with Lou Christie and Frankie Avalon.

All the stuff that we lament about the 90s touring band as far as setlist and sometimes rote (if professional) performances, that all would have happened sooner. I think the BB trademark is too powerful to have ever completely died, so some iteration of the "Beach Boys" would have kept going, and even if Carl left for a decade or more in 1981, they probably would have concocted some sort of "reunion" eventually in the 90s perhaps.

Carl being in the band not only kept Carl as a force in the band, but also was probably the only thing keeping it a *band*, because I think Carl was the only thing keeping Jardine there, and the only thing (until the 2010s) leaving Brian with *any* interest in maintaining ties to the band.

[adamghost]

I'll give you an alternate universe theory that's plausible:

"I Will Always Love You" is included on KTSA and becomes a big A/C hit in 1980.  I've heard it, and Ed Roach will back me up on this as he had the same reaction - it was a song with a Carl vocal that was perfectly in sync with early 1980s A/C (which is why it didn't make the album - it didn't fit, plus it was an outside writing situation).

I never understood the outside writing situation.  This is used for why "Surfer Suzie" wasn't released as well.  But on MIU they did "Winds of Change," which was an outside writing situation, and they did covers during this time too, which I believe "I Will Always Love You" would be, like "School Days," "Peggy Sue," and "Come Go With Me."

I don't think I have ever heard this outtake, how did it not fit?  I would argue that "When Girls Get Together" doesn't fit at all either, but they included that.

It just sounds like an A/C hit from 1980, exactly like that.  That's the best thing I can tell you.  The rest of the album didn't, though "Living With A Heartache" came closest, but not very close.  It's a ballad, IIRC with a Fender Rhodes backing, good hook, etc.  It doesn't sound like the Beach Boys.  It sounds Carl Wilson going solo in 1980 and having a very respectable A/C hit single.

BTW, when I said Carl didn't have the writing chops, I specifically meant in terms of writing hit singles.

[adamghost]

By the way, I may have gotten the title to this song slightly wrong.  Anybody's welcome to jump in and correct me on it if I have.  It's a Barry Mann/Cynthia Weil cowrite I believe.  Was it "I'll Always Love You" vs. "I Will Always Love You" (which obviously was a huge hit later in the decade)?  I think it may have been.

[clack]

Well, if all that people are saying is that Carl might have had a successful 80's Adult Contemporary Radio solo career not unlike those of Olivia Newton John, Barry Manilow, or Kenny Rogers -- well yeah, maybe, with a lot of luck, hard work, catchy shlock written by outside pros, and great management.

A more likely road for success might have been with a sort of supergroup, formed with guys from Chicago and America. Maybe such a group could have eked out a couple of hit records, who knows?

[Bill30022]

Another potential road to success would have been for Carl to sing jazz - think what Boz Scaggs did in "Speak Low".

[Alan Smith]

Carl Wilson decides not to return to The Beach Boys and after a few years of struggle, hits pay dirt when a for charity recording of Arthur's theme goes ballistic.  He then quickly compiles a new solo LP with white hot producer Steve Levine that includes It's Getting Late, Maybe I Don't Know, Passing Friend and a duet with Stevie Wonder on I Do Love You.  Despite dire sales, He is invited to perform a duet on It Didn't Matter by The Style Council which helps build a strong international solo profile. 

He continues to make some dubious moves in providing vocals for the themes to Who's the Boss, Growing Pains and the season 1 intro for Family Ties.

In the meantime, due to Carl's departure, Dennis leaves the group, and Carl initially gives him a job as percussionist in his touring band.  This allows Dennis to get his act together and he finally quits drugs and drinking before taking up a position as a Youth Minister.

The Beach Boys continue to sell major venues but take sometime to cobble together a new album containing Getcha Back, Looking Down the Coast, California Calling, Child of Winter, California Dreamin' and Rock and Roll to the Rescue.  Included is a demo version of Kokomo which goes fairly unnoticed by all.

As a favour to Bob Geldoff, Carl rejoins the band for Live Aid and due to the good vibe, asks for and gets the go ahead from Mike to do a solo cover of  Kokomo, which goes to number one globally.

Dennis returns to the fold, all become rich and famous beyond imagining and become regular contributors and thought/discussion leaders at SmileySmile.net/board.

[Lonely Summer]

I'm a big fan of both solo albums and the songs Carl wrote, so yes, I think he had the writing chops. I doubt his goal, though, was to have a long career outside the BB's. In fact, he said so in one interview at the time of "Youngblood" - "it's not my goal to have 10 Carl Wilson albums". He indicated he would be more interested in collaborating with other artists, which is what he eventually did with Gerry Beckley and Robert Lamm. But touring solo also gave him renewed respect for what Michael (as Carl always called him) did as front man of the BB's. Carl had the voice to front a band, but he didn't have the outgoing personality to project to a crowd as his cousin did. So I think he always planned to return to the group. I believe Carl was the main driving force behind the 1985 album, and he had hopes that would revive their recording career. When that album didn't set the charts on fire, the other guys seemed to lose interest in recording more than a couple singles per year. And then all the stuff with Brian and Landy was happening, and I just don't think Carl had the energy to do a lot more at that point. He was drained, emotionally, physically, everything. But it's a nice dream to think what if Carl had become a solo star ala Phil Collins, and the demand for more records, more concerts from him would take him out of the BB's orbit long enough for them to look at his success and say "darn! why aren't we doing that?"

For one thing, they didn't record more than few single per year, because they didn't have a long-term record company deal in those years.

I read a comment from Bruce circa 1987 that there was a label that wanted to sign them, but the guys weren't interested in recording "so we're not going to sign".