Awesome New Mike Love Article!!

[Cam Mott]

If anyone wants to discuss or opine about this: "Sometimes it feels to me like some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike" instead of diverting and accusing and insulting I'll be around (no need to call me out).

OK,  I'll answer this. In consideration of the history, what right has Mike to hurt feelings? Mike has received financial reparation, he got the chance to have a reunion (and ended that... badly), he has repeatedly dragged up Brian's drug abuse and mental problems, the way Mike behaved at the R&RHOF, 'Your husband had better write a big hit because he is going to have to write me a big cheque'...... Things like this do not present him in a sympathetic light and therefore people are not inclined to feel sorry for him.

Mike is an extremely wealthy man who seems to enjoy his career.

Brian had an abusive father, mental health issues, Landy and the litigation from Mike to endure. And despite these things has hardly ever been publicly rude to Mike. It's a no brainer.

So the topic is feelings and you deflect to  finance. The topic is Mike and wrongs done him and you deflect to Brian and "wrongs" done him that aren't Mike's doing or were reactions to wrongs done Mike (except the 2004 suit). And I'm the deflector?

I think you just illustrated my point too.

[Robbie Mac]

Amy and Clark, right on.  He may get a few jabs in against Brian here and there, but Brian probably doesn't really care one way or another what Mike says/does outside of the legal hassle.  However, in the end, he is only hurting himself.  He certainly isn't improving his chances of joining Brian in "the room" anytime soon.

Cam, we are all addressing your point.  It's not that no one is outraged about what offended Mike, it's that (a) the legal victory remedied his complaint well beyond the amount for which even Mike thought he deserved, yet; (b) he won't let it go; (c) he shows almost no compassion toward Brian's medical condition; (d) when he does he usually either precedes it or follows it up with other negative comments about Brian (sometimes in the same article), which communicates a lack of sincerity; (e) he mostly takes little to no responsibility for his part in the mess.

It isn't that no one is outraged, it's that there is nothing left about which to be outraged, yet Mike keeps talking as if there is, and he keeps attacking a person with a medical problem as he does so.  People don't like people that behave like Mike.  They don't like hearing someone attack another person when that person made him a millionaire, has admitted his wrong, has a diagnosed medical problem, and is mostly complimentary in return.  Nothing will change for Mike's public perception until *he* changes the image he projects to the world through these articles.

EoL

On Planet Cam, Brian is the Real Villain.

[Debbie KL]

Mike was ripped off, but that injustice has been redressed, or as redressed as it is possible to be without rewinding history.

Maybe that's part of the problem.  How differently would he have been regarded if was widely known at the time that he was writing the lyrics for the hits?  Redressing it 30 years later can't do much in that regard, because the wider world won't really give a toss at a later stage.  If he's concerned about his position in history, it's a hell of a thing to be robbed of.

At this stage, he can let go all his grudges and live easy, perhaps be a bit more liked by a few people, or he can be a grouchy old man, regularly pissing off about 30 fans on the internet by talking about his grudges.  But there's little difference in those two positions, really, compared to what he's lost.

Where did this idea come from that Mike wasn't known as a lyricist for the BBs and his feelings were hurt?  Everyone knew at the time that he wrote lyrics, as did Gary Usher and Roger Christian, for Brian's music in the early years.  There were plenty of listed credits.  Whatever songs he wanted more credit for, i.e., "Goodnight my baby, Sleep tight my baby..." he got in a lawsuit later.

[Cam Mott]

Amy and Clark, right on.  He may get a few jabs in against Brian here and there, but Brian probably doesn't really care one way or another what Mike says/does outside of the legal hassle.  However, in the end, he is only hurting himself.  He certainly isn't improving his chances of joining Brian in "the room" anytime soon.

Cam, we are all addressing your point.  It's not that no one is outraged about what offended Mike, it's that (a) the legal victory remedied his complaint well beyond the amount for which even Mike thought he deserved, yet; (b) he won't let it go; (c) he shows almost no compassion toward Brian's medical condition; (d) when he does he usually either precedes it or follows it up with other negative comments about Brian (sometimes in the same article), which communicates a lack of sincerity; (e) he mostly takes little to no responsibility for his part in the mess.

It isn't that no one is outraged, it's that there is nothing left about which to be outraged, yet Mike keeps talking as if there is, and he keeps attacking a person with a medical problem as he does so.  People don't like people that behave like Mike.  They don't like hearing someone attack another person when that person made him a millionaire, has admitted his wrong, has a diagnosed medical problem, and is mostly complimentary in return.  Nothing will change for Mike's public perception until *he* changes the image he projects to the world through these articles.

EoL

So you agree that some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike.

[drbeachboy]

Deb, do you not see Mike's band over all this stuff that went on 10 plus years ago?

Actually Dr.BB, when Mike is in my area in May, I'll be in the UK on my way to see Brian and his band in Birmingham.  A band described in that 2005 lawsuit this way:

"7. Between 1967 and 2002, Brian was essentially too ill to do anything but collect his royalties, including revenues from BRI and his 25% share of Mike Love’s license royalties. Between 1991 and 2002, Brian was under a court-ordered conservatorship, first with a court appointed lawyer until 1995, and then with his just married wife. In 2002, Brian began to resurrect his career by touring with his own band. However his “performance” has been, for the most part, limited by his past mental and emotional problems. In order to promote himself, Brian began to misappropriate BRI property. In 2003, he misappropriated “Pet Sounds,” a Beach Boys album, all while serving as a fiduciary to BRI. In September, 2004, Brian Wilson, without permission or a license from BRI, the owner of Smile, orchestrated the scheme to release a Smile CD. Up until then, Smile had been called the most recognized unreleased album in the history of rock ‘n’ roll. Smile has obtained “secondary meaning” as a Beach Boys property, and historically has been identified with The Beach Boys trademark. The defendants here exploited Mike Love and The Beach Boys’ tie-ins with Brian Wilson and Smile to promote the sale of the Smile CD, The Mail on Sunday newspaper, and the services of BigTime.TV."

So yeah, having seen Brian and his stellar band and enjoying them tremendously, I continue to do so.  I have my preferences and pay for tickets for the band I want to see.  We all have that option.  Did I find the above paragraph offensive?  I certainly did, on so many levels.  BTW, I personally saw Brian "Between 1967 and 2002" driving around in his pale yellow Mark III with no problems, going to the Ivar offices to audition artists for Brother Records at another BB's request, and overall being quite functional.  I held a number of fully engaged intelligent conversations with him.  And he was always both of those things.  Yeah, this angers me on a number of levels.  I'm sure Mike's band is fine.  I want to see Brian's.  I'm not certain how that makes me "insane."  

First off, who said you were "insane"? I never said no such thing. This whole forum would be insane if that is the case. I offer this to you, Mike was around between 1967 and 2002 too. Brian went through multiple lawsuits with him in those latter times, yet he went out on tour with him for a whole season. I figured that you would see things more like Brian, especially since you know him and know his demeanor better than most us. As I say quite a bit in here, we take this stuff much too seriously. I think Brian has a better perspective on all this stuff, than many of us do. Lastly, you go see Brian until your heart's content, but please don't tell us to go see Mike, because some of us don't happen to see things your way. As a matter of fact, I have no desire see either this year. Mike was here in NJ last night for 2 shows and I didn't go. Last week I passed up pre-sale tix for Brian's show in September. Honestly, I've lost the desire to see any of them, anymore. You guys have made it clear that it sucks to be a Beach Boys fan. That we have to take sides and only enjoy the side that was picked.

[Empire Of Love]

Mike was ripped off, but that injustice has been redressed, or as redressed as it is possible to be without rewinding history.

Maybe that's part of the problem.  How differently would he have been regarded if was widely known at the time that he was writing the lyrics for the hits?  Redressing it 30 years later can't do much in that regard, because the wider world won't really give a toss at a later stage.  If he's concerned about his position in history, it's a hell of a thing to be robbed of.

At this stage, he can let go all his grudges and live easy, perhaps be a bit more liked by a few people, or he can be a grouchy old man, regularly pissing off about 30 fans on the internet by talking about his grudges.  But there's little difference in those two positions, really, compared to what he's lost.

Where did this idea come from that Mike wasn't known as a lyricist for the BBs and his feelings were hurt?  Everyone knew at the time that he wrote lyrics, as did Gary Usher and Roger Christian, for Brian's music in the early years.  There were plenty of listed credits.  Whatever songs he wanted more credit for, i.e., "Goodnight my baby, Sleep tight my baby..." he got in a lawsuit later.

Exactly.  Which lyrics would have improved Mike's place in history?  By the time Mike was attempting anything that would have appealed to the hipsters and artsy crowd he was playing catch up, he had already missed the boat.  Those early songs, as much as I love them, including many of the lyrics, aren't getting anyone into the poetry HOF, including Brian.

EoL

[Fire Wind]

Where did this idea come from that Mike wasn't known as a lyricist for the BBs and his feelings were hurt?  

Dunno.  My error, I guess.  The list of amended credits from the lawsuit (I know some aren't much justified) is over 30 tracks, from the start up to Pet Sounds.   I wasn't aware there were many original listed credits for Mike.

[Emily]

So you agree that some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike.

Hi Cam, I'm glad you are putting in the "(or whatever)" because in my case 'outrage' would be way too strong, but yes, I think your statement is correct. I don't know what your family structure is, but if you have siblings or kids, I'm sure you've seen one sibling hurt another's feelings. Hopefully it's redressed more or less fairly, but sometimes the hurt feelings are still hurt. One sympathizes for a while. But sometimes someone will bring up the same incident over and over and one's sympathy wanes and eventually just becomes eye-rolling or exasperation. The time comes when bringing up old squabbles becomes tiresome, particularly if there's been acknowledgment of the wrong and an attempt at righting it. Mike Love needs to forgive and move on.

Edit: let me add that, as one of three very squabbly siblings, I've been in Mike's shoes. Things have happened that I didn't feel were ever sufficiently acknowledged or redressed and I harped on them, trying to get the acknowledgement I wanted but eventually I recognized, as Amy says, that I was only hurting myself. I wasn't getting the acknowledgment; people were increasingly irritated; and I was miserable. The only solution is to find a way to make peace with it on your own.

[bachelorofbullets]

Exactly.  Which lyrics would have improved Mike's place in history?  By the time Mike was attempting anything that would have appealed to the hipsters and artsy crowd he was playing catch up, he had already missed the boat.  Those early songs, as much as I love them, including many of the lyrics, aren't getting anyone into the poetry HOF, including Brian.

EoL

What?  You mean "teenage gambler...sittin in his rambler" didn't blow you away?

[Amy B.]

Maybe that's part of the problem.  How differently would he have been regarded if was widely known at the time that he was writing the lyrics for the hits?  Redressing it 30 years later can't do much in that regard, because the wider world won't really give a toss at a later stage.  If he's concerned about his position in history, it's a hell of a thing to be robbed of.

At this stage, he can let go all his grudges and live easy, perhaps be a bit more liked by a few people, or he can be a grouchy old man, regularly pissing off about 30 fans on the internet by talking about his grudges.  But there's little difference in those two positions, really, compared to what he's lost.

He DID get credit for most of the songs that he co-wrote. Some of them, he didn't. I totally agree that he deserved credit for the great California Girls. (And if he wanted to claim credit for forgettable lines like "good night, sleep tight," fine. IMO, it's kind of like Ringo claiming credit for Helter Skelter because he screamed, "I got blisters on my fingers!"). And so did the judge. Legally he got the credit.  Totally deserved it. And Brian later admitted that Mike deserved it.

The point (at least, my point) isn't whether Mike's loss is so great that he has a right to be grouchy. Sure he does. He can say whatever he wants. He can answer whatever questions he wants, however he wants. The point is, is it worth it to continue to feel so bitter? Really, what is it accomplishing? He's actually preventing himself from being happy. And, if he does care about how people see him, he may actually be making his public image worse, thus making it more difficult to see him as an artist, first and foremost. But maybe he can't see it any other way. If so, it demonstrates a notable lack of perspective at age 74, and that's a shame. Like everyone, he deserves the peace that often comes with getting older, when one realizes what's really important. He's healthy, has 8 children, a wife, a busy career.

But it's "OK, Mike. You're right. Here are your songwriting credits. Oh, you still feel bitter? Then maybe this isn't REALLY about songwriting credits, is it?"

[JK]

You guys have made it clear that it sucks to be a Beach Boys fan. That we have to take sides and only enjoy the side that was picked.

drbeachboy, there's a handful of posters whom I would describe as being the Voice of Reason round here and you're one of them. So don't be put off by the side-takers.

It seems to be contagious, this side-taking business, as if you only count if you takes sides. That's bullshit. I and many others here who love the Boys and their music are not taking sides and never will.

So no, it doesn't suck to be a fan----no way!   

[Empire Of Love]

So you agree that some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike.

Hi Cam, I'm glad you are putting in the "(or whatever)" because in my case 'outrage' would be way too strong, but yes, I think your statement is correct. I don't know what your family structure is, but if you have siblings or kids, I'm sure you've seen one sibling hurt another's feelings. Hopefully it's redressed more or less fairly, but sometimes the hurt feelings are still hurt. One sympathizes for a while. But sometimes someone will bring up the same incident over and over and one's sympathy wanes and eventually just becomes eye-rolling or exasperation. The time comes when bringing up old squabbles becomes tiresome, particularly if there's been acknowledgment of the wrong and an attempt at righting it. Mike Love needs to forgive and move on.

Could not have said it better myself.

EoL

[The Cincinnati Kid]

You guys have made it clear that it sucks to be a Beach Boys fan. That we have to take sides and only enjoy the side that was picked.

drbeachboy, there's a handful of posters whom I would describe as being the Voice of Reason round here and you're one of them. So don't be put off by the side-takers.

It seems to be contagious, this side-taking business, as if you only count if you takes sides. That's bullshit. I and many others here who love the Boys and their music are not taking sides and never will.

So no, it doesn't suck to be a fan----no way!   

Agreed!  Don't miss out on the shows because of the negative people on this board. 

[Lonely Summer]

It's no wonder Carl died young. A lifetime of dealing with his brothers' out of control behavior, an abusive father...and being in a band with Mike.

[Pretty Funky]

Very sad story to read, and Jackie standing on the chair playing Brian was telling. Sure, Brian has his mental demons but as has been said by others, Mike has some sh!t going on as well.

He has first world problems. The Beach Boys fans have had to go home each night to pay the bills and mortgage. I think Mike has forgotten or never grasped that. His hang-ups over credits etc read to me like a guy who has been wealthy and successful since he was 20 and is, or has never been in touch with the real world. Michael Jackson to a lesser degree.  

Cry me a river.

[drbeachboy]

You guys have made it clear that it sucks to be a Beach Boys fan. That we have to take sides and only enjoy the side that was picked.

drbeachboy, there's a handful of posters whom I would describe as being the Voice of Reason round here and you're one of them. So don't be put off by the side-takers.

It seems to be contagious, this side-taking business, as if you only count if you takes sides. That's bullshit. I and many others here who love the Boys and their music are not taking sides and never will.

So no, it doesn't suck to be a fan----no way!  

Agreed!  Don't miss out on the shows because of the negative people on this board.  

Thanks for that, it is appreciated. You know, until I found this forum, I never felt like my fandom was in jeopardy. Until the Internet, most Beach Boys fans were pretty united in their fandom. We had each other to share to our experiences. Now, it is just take a side and come out fighting.

[Emily]

I think there are a lot of people on this board who aren't 'on a side' generally. I think if one band member says or does something upon which you negatively comment people think you are on a side but you can think there's too much digital vocal manipulation on NPP without being #teamMike or think that Mike Love should stop harping on his grievances without being #teamBrian.

[SMiLE Brian]

#teamBrian

[CenturyDeprived]

Amy and Clark, right on.  He may get a few jabs in against Brian here and there, but Brian probably doesn't really care one way or another what Mike says/does outside of the legal hassle.  However, in the end, he is only hurting himself.  He certainly isn't improving his chances of joining Brian in "the room" anytime soon.

Cam, we are all addressing your point.  It's not that no one is outraged about what offended Mike, it's that (a) the legal victory remedied his complaint well beyond the amount for which even Mike thought he deserved, yet; (b) he won't let it go; (c) he shows almost no compassion toward Brian's medical condition; (d) when he does he usually either precedes it or follows it up with other negative comments about Brian (sometimes in the same article), which communicates a lack of sincerity; (e) he mostly takes little to no responsibility for his part in the mess.

It isn't that no one is outraged, it's that there is nothing left about which to be outraged, yet Mike keeps talking as if there is, and he keeps attacking a person with a medical problem as he does so.  People don't like people that behave like Mike.  They don't like hearing someone attack another person when that person made him a millionaire, has admitted his wrong, has a diagnosed medical problem, and is mostly complimentary in return.  Nothing will change for Mike's public perception until *he* changes the image he projects to the world through these articles.

EoL

So you agree that some people are more outraged (or whatever) at Mike's continuing hurt feelings than they are with the people and actions that hurt Mike.

The thing is: the actions that Mike speaks of (which he continues, in 2016, to be outraged over) occurred 50 years ago. The songwriting snubbing, unfair and completely uncool as it was, happened that long ago. The issue was also rectified decades ago too.  I can understand why there would still be some lingering hurt feelings... but a grudge that causes him to publicly bring it up over and over again STILL? It's hard to understand why that feeling wouldn't have subsided, but I truly, honestly feel very bad for Mike that he's still hurt over it though.

The only logical way one of us on this board would continue to be comparatively MORE outraged/upset/whatever against Brian for the snubbing (compared to feeling similar feelings about Mike's current feelings) would be if Brian *continued* to write songs with Mike in 2012/2016, use Mike's lyrics on hit songs, and not properly credit Mike properly for them. In a case like that, yes, I would think people would think that Brian was acting very craptacular by continuing to do this snubbing. Then you'd have a case where opinion would probably shift toward feeling comparatively more sorry for Mike in a very legit way.

But that simply ain't the case. Of course, to Mike, not getting to co-write the 2012 BB album in exactly the way Mike wanted to probably equates to the same type of non-crediting snubbing (even though it is not at all the same) - Mike IMO feels he DESERVES and is OWED the opportunity to write with Brian alone in a room - which IMO is ridiculous.

Mike, as far as I know, is the only guy in the BB history except Landy who has tried to lean hard to make damn sure that songs include his input, come hell or high water. Nobody else makes those demands (of course Mike feels his past hits entitle him to such), but it's that very entitled attitude that makes him unlikable. Past hits don't give him that right. Tons and tons of fans love the band specifically for all the NON-Mike written material, like 90% of Pet Sounds... Brian proved he could (and by necessity, in some cases could only) make his most beautiful/deep music without Mike. This is not to diminish Mike's many truly great contributions. Yet Mike is not Brian's equal, and I think very few people would think that Mike should in 2012, in all fairness have been entitled to an absolutely equal or predominant amount of creative control of the band's songwriting.

And it isn't a contest either in terms of how outraged/whatever people are of one incident over another. I'll say right here, unequivocally, that it was a sh*tty thing to do for Brian to not credit Mike when he should have been credited, although I do feel that Murry's lack of ethics and bullying behavior loomed large over Brian's actions - still, that doesn't exactly excuse it or make it right.

Us fans don't look at these incidents in a bubble without context of the entire band's history, as well as the mental illness/emotional capacity of the members. I think that very, very few people think it's good/fair/appropriate for Mike to have been screwed out of legit song credits like California Girls (the straw-grab of WIBN excepted).

[Cam Mott]

Maybe we don't get to tell the Boys how to feel because we haven't walked in their shoes.

[Emily]

#teamBrian

I will say that the Pamplin thread has made me more #teamBrian than anything else has. It really clarified for me how much he was hounded, actually forced, on all sides to perform as others wished and not as he did.

[SMiLE Brian]

Exactly Emily!

[AndrewHickey]

As a matter of fact, I have no desire see either this year. Mike was here in NJ last night for 2 shows and I didn't go. Last week I passed up pre-sale tix for Brian's show in September. Honestly, I've lost the desire to see any of them, anymore. You guys have made it clear that it sucks to be a Beach Boys fan. That we have to take sides and only enjoy the side that was picked.

That's incredibly sad to hear, and I wish petty squabbles on a message board weren't spoiling your enjoyment so much. Personally, I'm going to go and see two Brian/Al/Blondie shows in May, and I'm certain I'll enjoy them (hopefully as much as the 2002 Pet Sounds shows, since it's Pet Sounds again). And if Mike and Bruce (and maybe Dave) announce any UK shows this year, I'll go to some of those, too, and enjoy them. And if anyone wants to revoke my Brianista and/or Kokomaoist cards for that, let them.

[CenturyDeprived]

Maybe we don't get to tell the Boys how to feel because we haven't walked in their shoes.

We are only having a discussion, we can't dictate or make a bandmember feel a certain way if they're not going to feel that way.

I haven't walked in Landy's shoes, yet I can "tell" the ghost of Landy that he was being super sh*tty by taking advantage of Brian, and I think you'd probably agree. And you're able to call Brian out on sh*tty behavior (as I too am), like the songwriting snubbing, but somehow you cannot say the same about Mike at any point.

I will say that Brian snubbing Mike over, California Girls, for example, was not excusable, it was not right. Can you bring yourself to say the same about any action from Mike to Brian? That Mike ever did something to Brian that Cam would qualify as simply wrong, not right, f*cked up?

[Emily]

As a matter of fact, I have no desire see either this year. Mike was here in NJ last night for 2 shows and I didn't go. Last week I passed up pre-sale tix for Brian's show in September. Honestly, I've lost the desire to see any of them, anymore. You guys have made it clear that it sucks to be a Beach Boys fan. That we have to take sides and only enjoy the side that was picked.

That's incredibly sad to hear, and I wish petty squabbles on a message board weren't spoiling your enjoyment so much. Personally, I'm going to go and see two Brian/Al/Blondie shows in May, and I'm certain I'll enjoy them (hopefully as much as the 2002 Pet Sounds shows, since it's Pet Sounds again). And if Mike and Bruce (and maybe Dave) announce any UK shows this year, I'll go to some of those, too, and enjoy them. And if anyone wants to revoke my Brianista and/or Kokomaoist cards for that, let them.

I hope to see both this year too (thanks to your persuasion!). I haven't seen live music in about two decades.
Eta: well, I've seen random musicians in subway stops and bars and the like.