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Author Topic: What if The Beach Boys Love You was scrapped?  (Read 17940 times)
KDS
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« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2016, 07:18:22 AM »

I'm somewhere in the middle when it comes to the Love You album. 

I think there's some really good stuff on there, most notably The Night Was So Young and Mona. 

I also think it's miles better than the 15 Big Ones album. 

But, I'm not as into quirky Brian as many here.  So, while I don't hate the album, I still rate it pretty low in their overall catalog. 
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« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2016, 09:21:54 AM »

If Love You had never been released, there would be less happiness in my life than could have been. There is so much to love on that album! The only song that I don't really like is "Love is a Woman".

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« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2016, 02:28:34 PM »

Love You had some great tunes and could have been a classic with better production and vocals -- even if the lyrics were weak in a lot of spots.

The Night Was So Young is an amazing song as is, and could have been among the group's best if Carl's vocal had been up to his normal standards.
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« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2016, 06:54:12 AM »

Assuming I wouldn't know what the finished result would be, I'd be fine with it being scrapped. Of course demos are inferior, I'm sure every fan will agree, but if they sit in the archives & get featured in boots - well, not bad.
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« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2016, 09:30:15 AM »

I can't help but observe that anytime someone praises Love You, it's mostly because the albums before and after are so lousy.  I can even see that, reading this thread. 

What if Love You came out right after, say, Sunflower?  Would it still be the cat's whiskers?

I've not read anyone say they like LOVE YOU because of the albums surrounding it.  Yes, I would still love it if it came after "Sunflower."  I know this because I like it more than "Surf's Up."  I enjoy the heck out of the album--those who don't like it are just a bunch of Mike Love's who can't handle not hearing a publicly-approved hit every few songs.
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« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2016, 09:46:28 AM »

I can't help but observe that anytime someone praises Love You, it's mostly because the albums before and after are so lousy.  I can even see that, reading this thread. 

What if Love You came out right after, say, Sunflower?  Would it still be the cat's whiskers?

I've not read anyone say they like LOVE YOU because of the albums surrounding it.  Yes, I would still love it if it came after "Sunflower."  I know this because I like it more than "Surf's Up."  I enjoy the heck out of the album--those who don't like it are just a bunch of Mike Love's who can't handle not hearing a publicly-approved hit every few songs.

I've noticed this perception on both this board and the BW Forum from other posters. 

The attitude is: "Love You" is a great album, and if you don't like it, you're either "not a real Brian Wilson fan," "aren't smart enough to understand," or "buy into the Mike Love agenda."

Well, I consider myself a pretty big Beach Boys / Brian Wilson fan.  And, I'm sorry, but the Love You album is near the bottom of the list for me.  Granted, there's a few nice moments on there, but as an album, I'll take pretty much anything between 1962-1973 over it.  As well just about anything Brian Wilson had put together since BWPS (including the BB reunion album). 

Does that make me less a fan? 
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« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2016, 10:03:58 AM »

The way I see it, it's just that many people who really love Love You (like me) just can't understand why another fan doesn't. Just like some of us can't understand people who don't appreciate the Beach Boys. Lack of understanding makes one look for reasons why and come up with explanations for the sole purpose of "making sense".
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KDS
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« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2016, 10:11:20 AM »

Catlag,

I'm not citing you, and any other poster specifically, but I also think it's the "hip" choice, sometimes preferred by contrarians or hipsters.   The types who go to a bar and play the most far out music on the jukebox, and go around bragging about how "different" or "edgy" or "non mainstream" it is.

Having said that, I think this only makes up a small percentage of the Love You fans. 

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« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2016, 10:16:52 AM »

Here is another possibility. If the Beach Boys scrapped Love You, Brian would have asked Alice Cooper, Iggy Pop, David Bowie and Ozzy Osbourne to add vocals and released it as an all star record.
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"Over the years, I've been accused of not supporting our new music from this era (67-73) and just wanting to play our hits. That's complete b.s......I was also, as the front man, the one promoting these songs onstage and have the scars to show for it."
Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2016, 10:47:15 AM »

Catlag,

I'm not citing you, and any other poster specifically, but I also think it's the "hip" choice, sometimes preferred by contrarians or hipsters.   The types who go to a bar and play the most far out music on the jukebox, and go around bragging about how "different" or "edgy" or "non mainstream" it is.


But then again... Making that argument is the same as the one you previously criticized that "if you don't like it, you're either "not a real Brian Wilson fan," "aren't smart enough to understand," or "buy into the Mike Love agenda."

You make sense of people liking it (from your perspective of NOT liking it) by attributing it to a "hip" choice.

I suppose that's OK. We all do that.

And I'll end on this note: I love Love You from the absolute bottom of my heart and in the uttermost depth of my fandom. Not because it may or may not be "hip", "different" or "edgy". I just love it. There's no real way of explaining it. For me, it absolutely grooves and it remains a gem of the BB discography.
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KDS
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« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2016, 10:59:24 AM »

Catlag,

I never said that's the main reason why Love You gets the love it gets. 

I wish you'd have copied my full quote to include my last point.

Having said that, I think this only makes up a small percentage of the Love You fans. 

If you legitimate love the Love You record, I'm OK with that.  But, I truly believe that there's a small percentage of fans who'll cite this at a favorite for the sole purpose of going against the grain. 
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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2016, 11:39:06 AM »

Catlag,

I never said that's the main reason why Love You gets the love it gets. 

I wish you'd have copied my full quote to include my last point.

Having said that, I think this only makes up a small percentage of the Love You fans. 

If you legitimate love the Love You record, I'm OK with that.  But, I truly believe that there's a small percentage of fans who'll cite this at a favorite for the sole purpose of going against the grain. 

The only reason I quoted only a portion is because I commented only on the first part and figured visitors of this thread would have read your whole comment already. I know you did not mean to be diminutive to begin with. I was just emphasizing that misjudgments can be made from both sides of the fence when it comes to what we love and what we don't love from our Beach Boys.

... I know this is a little bit off topic, but since I'm one of those who needs to make sense of fans not liking LY, is there no way to turn your opinion of this record around?  Smiley What's so wrong with it? haha! I'll just go to the proper Albums discussion for that.
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KDS
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« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2016, 12:14:04 PM »

Catlag,

I never said that's the main reason why Love You gets the love it gets. 

I wish you'd have copied my full quote to include my last point.

Having said that, I think this only makes up a small percentage of the Love You fans. 

If you legitimate love the Love You record, I'm OK with that.  But, I truly believe that there's a small percentage of fans who'll cite this at a favorite for the sole purpose of going against the grain. 

The only reason I quoted only a portion is because I commented only on the first part and figured visitors of this thread would have read your whole comment already. I know you did not mean to be diminutive to begin with. I was just emphasizing that misjudgments can be made from both sides of the fence when it comes to what we love and what we don't love from our Beach Boys.

... I know this is a little bit off topic, but since I'm one of those who needs to make sense of fans not liking LY, is there no way to turn your opinion of this record around?  Smiley What's so wrong with it? haha! I'll just go to the proper Albums discussion for that.

I've listened to the album several times, thinking that I'm missing out on something.  There's a few tracks on there that I like, most notably Mona, Johnny Carson, and The Night Was So Young. 

But, to me, most of the material just doesn't live up to the high standards of a Brian Wilson production. 

I should also specify that I'm not a big fan of Brian's more quirky material.  For example, Vegatables is one of my least favorite BB songs from the 1960s. 
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« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2016, 08:47:45 PM »

Catlag,

I never said that's the main reason why Love You gets the love it gets. 

I wish you'd have copied my full quote to include my last point.

Having said that, I think this only makes up a small percentage of the Love You fans. 

If you legitimate love the Love You record, I'm OK with that.  But, I truly believe that there's a small percentage of fans who'll cite this at a favorite for the sole purpose of going against the grain. 

The only reason I quoted only a portion is because I commented only on the first part and figured visitors of this thread would have read your whole comment already. I know you did not mean to be diminutive to begin with. I was just emphasizing that misjudgments can be made from both sides of the fence when it comes to what we love and what we don't love from our Beach Boys.

... I know this is a little bit off topic, but since I'm one of those who needs to make sense of fans not liking LY, is there no way to turn your opinion of this record around?  Smiley What's so wrong with it? haha! I'll just go to the proper Albums discussion for that.

I've listened to the album several times, thinking that I'm missing out on something.  There's a few tracks on there that I like, most notably Mona, Johnny Carson, and The Night Was So Young. 

But, to me, most of the material just doesn't live up to the high standards of a Brian Wilson production. 

I should also specify that I'm not a big fan of Brian's more quirky material.  For example, Vegatables is one of my least favorite BB songs from the 1960s. 
I have similar feelings about LY. Roller Skating Child, Honkin' Down the Highway, Johnny Carson are the ones I go to most often. I get that some people feel "the quirkier, the more pure Brian it is". Personally, I just don't enjoy hearing a bunch of musical sketches (that needed more work in the writing dept) on an album (that needed much better production) sung by off-key or loaded Beach Boys. The whole 15 BO/Love You things feels to me like a giant step, if not backwards, at least sideways, after the decade opening quadruple shot of Sunflower/Surf's Up/So Tough/Holland.
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« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2016, 05:26:32 AM »

That's pretty much how I feel Lonely Summer. 

The deep in quality from the early 70s albums to 15BO/LY is very jarring. 

I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I think MIU and LA were better albums once the other BB took the reins back from Brian, who IMO, wasn't ready to be in charge again.  To my ears, Brian wouldn't truly be back until he revived Smile in the early 2000s.  Since then, he's been at the helm of some very high quality albums (TLOS, Gerswhin, TWGMTR, NPP, and even the Xmas album). 
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« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2016, 05:29:40 AM »

If Love You were scrapped, the band's descent would follow a smoother trajectory.
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« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2016, 05:59:28 AM »

If you legitimate love the Love You record, I'm OK with that.  But, I truly believe that there's a small percentage of fans who'll cite this at a favorite for the sole purpose of going against the grain. 

I don't. If nothing else, it's not "against the grain" to defend Love You -- it's one both Al and Brian have mentioned in interviews as a favourite, it's one that always gets brought up as a favourite in fan discussions, it has critical respect... why would a contrarian want to defend that? They'd be more likely to be arguing the merits of Stars & Stripes or Summer In Paradise or something.

For another, what you're doing here is dismissing a group while leaving a certain amount of deniability in place. "Oh, *YOU'RE* OK, it's those *OTHER* Xs that are the bad ones" -- but never saying exactly which Xs you mean. This is a very unpleasant tactic used by far too many people. If you think specific people are doing that, why not name those specific people?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this board ever lie about what Beach Boys music they enjoy. I *do* think, however, that accusations of bad faith like that go a long way toward causing the bad atmosphere we see on this board.

My three favourite Beach Boys albums are Smiley Smile, Love You, and Carl & The Passions. I don't know that Pet Sounds would be in my top ten, and Sunflower *certainly* wouldn't be in my top twenty. Am I one of your contrarians, lying about my taste? Or am I just someone who happens to have different tastes? I know what *I* think, but when you go around saying things like that, I can't assume that you'll presume good faith.

If this is a real thing, you should be able to name the people you think are doing it.
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« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2016, 06:21:38 AM »

Andrew,

I'm sorry, but I don't log every post I read, so it would be impossible for me to call out people who I thought stated their love for a particular album to be hip. 

I'm not even necessarily referring to people on this board.

I've made the mistake of getting into music discussions with hipsters at a local watering hole I used to fequent, and whenever a legacy artist would come up, they would almost always cite the dark horse albums as their favorite because "they don't have the hits" or "its so not mainstream."  I kinda recall an exchange about Paul McCartney where the person mentioned he loved the McCartney II album because it was no New Wave and sounded nothing like The Beatles. 

I'm not sure why you'd read a general statement I've made and think its about you, unless I possibly touched a nerve. 
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« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2016, 06:38:16 AM »

I'm also a huge fan of Carl and the Passions. And while I certainly enjoy nearly all of Love You more than 15 Big Ones (with the exception of "Just Once in My Life"), it isn't one of my favorite or go-to BB albums. I really, really, REALLY don't understand the love for "Solar System," in terms of vocals, lyrics, and the song itself. But "Johnny Carson"? Amazing. There's a lot of amazing on the album. Ok, never mind. It's probably one of my favorites.

If The Beach Boys Love You had gone unreleased, I think that the music cognoscenti would have written off Brian's continuing genius as "burnt out" by the early 70s, instead of continuing to the present day. The album did have-- and continues to have-- some critical acclaim, and I think that it helped prop up Brian's reputation in certain circles until he could really get his feet back underneath him with his solo career. There would have been a definite lack of quirky, idiosyncratic Brian songs extending from the end of the Riely era, and we would all be losers in that scenario.

EDIT: For all the talk about how the modern Beach Boys have exhibited little love for Love You, don't forget that Al put "Honkin'" on his solo album. Honk, honk, mofos
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« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2016, 07:18:23 AM »

I kinda recall an exchange about Paul McCartney where the person mentioned he loved the McCartney II album because it was no New Wave and sounded nothing like The Beatles. 

And? If you like things that sound new wave, and don't like things that sound like the Beatles, that's a perfectly reasonable reason to like that album. If someone said that to me, I'd accept that those were their reasons, rather than assuming they were lying.

Quote
I'm not sure why you'd read a general statement I've made and think its about you, unless I possibly touched a nerve. 

The point is that you made a general statement about a group including me -- and including a lot of other people on this board -- and then used weasel words to get out of having to justify it in any particular instance. You're making unfalsifiable statements, because when asked about any particular person you can just say "oh I didn't mean *them*", while continuing to insist on it as a general pattern. Unless you actually point to specific people you're talking about, *anyone* who has expressed a love for the album is being pointed to as at least a potential liar.

I have only very rarely in my life come across anyone who pretended to like an album in order to impress someone -- and pretty much never with anyone over the age of about nineteen. I have *often*, however, come across people who claim that other people are doing that as a way to dismiss the opinions of anyone they disagree with, and I find the latter behaviour *far* more annoying.

And no, despite your insinuations, you didn't "touch a nerve". I just think it's very, very, rude to presume dishonesty when people say they like something you don't, and especially so to do so in a way that means you never have to defend that presumption.
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« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2016, 07:42:17 AM »

Andrew,

You've obviously never dealt with modern hipsters.  For that, I envy you.  Some of these posers in my neighborhood are some of the most phony and pretentious people you'll ever meet.

To me when somebody says "I can't like that because it's too mainstream" or "If it's popular, it can't be that good" then I have a hard time believing most of what they say.  And, yes, I have actually heard people say these actual words in person. 

I even said in my post that I believe this only applies to a small amount of people to express their love to the Love You album. 
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« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2016, 07:43:14 AM »

Wow, I had exactly the same reaction. It's the biggest pet peeve of mine when people throw this "you're a hipster" card. So, what if I like sth. unusual and pick up some unconventional choice? I hate to break it but if one says, f.ex., that French is one of the ugliest languages they ever heard, it does indeed mean that they despise it. Why would I think they lie? What for? Hilarious, ya know.
 I wholly agree with Mr. Hickey. Worded perfectly.

KDS, there's no need to backpedal and make more effort to reason your post. It is rude and it's a dumb theory. Just agree to disagree.
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« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2016, 07:47:06 AM »

Wow, I had exactly the same reaction. It's the biggest pet peeve of mine when people throw this "you're a hipster" card. So, what if I like sth. unusual and pick up some unconventional choice? I hate to break it but if one says, f.ex., that French is one of the ugliest languages they ever heard, it does indeed mean that they despise it. Why would I think they lie? What for? Hilarious, ya know.
 I wholly agree with Mr. Hickey. Worded perfectly.

If I could explain the rationale of the modern day hipster, I would. 
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« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2016, 07:48:44 AM »

See the edit.
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« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2016, 07:49:06 AM »

To me when somebody says "I can't like that because it's too mainstream" or "If it's popular, it can't be that good" then I have a hard time believing most of what they say.  And, yes, I have actually heard people say these actual words in person.  

But this is something altogether different. Isn't saying "if it's popular, it can't be good" along the same lines as saying, "If you say you like Love You, you may be lying"?
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