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Author Topic: Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?  (Read 118839 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #575 on: February 03, 2016, 11:46:02 PM »

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The SMiLE album artwork was ready and publicized in March and the actual album covers were done in April, so we are thinking that Brian is deliberately still recording tracks for SMiLE of alternate title or title that will not appear on the album covers that are either being made or already made instead of those alternate tracks being for the alternate album Smiley Smile.  It said "See label for correct playing order" not "for correct titles and unlisted songs".

I hadn't realised the covers were completed/printed/delivered in April. So Capitol, at least, was still working on the basis that work on SMiLE was ongoing, it appears.

Now, if you were the 'level-headed' brother in a family band, and that band was/had been in recent legal conflict with their record label, and that record label had conceded on the crucial points and was about to give your band its own subsidiary label, and that record label had been paying for months of recording that your brother/band leader had now decided was to be junked: wouldn't you try and provide some diplomatic commentary - 'damage control' might be another term for it - on that topic to the press?

That's just supposition, of course. Even 'parsing', if you like. Maybe you wouldn't. I suspect I would.

In late July 67 Capitol and Brian discussed the existing Smile booklets and the 10 remaining Smile songs whose titles were not on Smiley Smile, which at that point would not be released until September. At that point (late July) there were plans (if you believe the Capitol memo from Engemann) to release something after Smiley Smile where the booklet would be included relative to the tracks on that album.

By October 1967 the Beach Boys were doing R&B and would do so on their next singles and album.

What damage control needed to be done to the press if Capitol and Brian and the Beach Boys were in agreement over those booklets and the album releases? If plans changed after Smiley Smile was released, plans changed. It's as simple as that...no need for damage control if all sides were informed as shown by that memo (and others).

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« Reply #576 on: February 03, 2016, 11:47:08 PM »

Question: Who paid for those April Vegetables sessions, the band or Capitol? How about Carl's sessions unrelated to Smile yet held at the same time, did the band or Capitol pick up the tab for those?


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Emily
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« Reply #577 on: February 03, 2016, 11:51:13 PM »

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The SMiLE album artwork was ready and publicized in March and the actual album covers were done in April, so we are thinking that Brian is deliberately still recording tracks for SMiLE of alternate title or title that will not appear on the album covers that are either being made or already made instead of those alternate tracks being for the alternate album Smiley Smile.  It said "See label for correct playing order" not "for correct titles and unlisted songs".

I hadn't realised the covers were completed/printed/delivered in April. So Capitol, at least, was still working on the basis that work on SMiLE was ongoing, it appears.

Now, if you were the 'level-headed' brother in a family band, and that band was/had been in recent legal conflict with their record label, and that record label had conceded on the crucial points and was about to give your band its own subsidiary label, and that record label had been paying for months of recording that your brother/band leader had now decided was to be junked: wouldn't you try and provide some diplomatic commentary - 'damage control' might be another term for it - on that topic to the press?

That's just supposition, of course. Even 'parsing', if you like. Maybe you wouldn't. I suspect I would.

In late July 67 Capitol and Brian discussed the existing Smile booklets and the 10 remaining Smile songs whose titles were not on Smiley Smile, which at that point would not be released until September. At that point (late July) there were plans (if you believe the Capitol memo from Engemann) to release something after Smiley Smile where the booklet would be included relative to the tracks on that album.

By October 1967 the Beach Boys were doing R&B and would do so on their next singles and album.

What damage control needed to be done to the press if Capitol and Brian and the Beach Boys were in agreement over those booklets and the album releases? If plans changed after Smiley Smile was released, plans changed. It's as simple as that...no need for damage control if all sides were informed as shown by that memo (and others).


I thought The Holy Bee's comments about 'damage control' referred to the May quotes by the touring band saying that everything's A-OK after the 'scrapped' comment. But perhaps not.
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« Reply #578 on: February 04, 2016, 12:00:47 AM »

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The SMiLE album artwork was ready and publicized in March and the actual album covers were done in April, so we are thinking that Brian is deliberately still recording tracks for SMiLE of alternate title or title that will not appear on the album covers that are either being made or already made instead of those alternate tracks being for the alternate album Smiley Smile.  It said "See label for correct playing order" not "for correct titles and unlisted songs".

I hadn't realised the covers were completed/printed/delivered in April. So Capitol, at least, was still working on the basis that work on SMiLE was ongoing, it appears.

Now, if you were the 'level-headed' brother in a family band, and that band was/had been in recent legal conflict with their record label, and that record label had conceded on the crucial points and was about to give your band its own subsidiary label, and that record label had been paying for months of recording that your brother/band leader had now decided was to be junked: wouldn't you try and provide some diplomatic commentary - 'damage control' might be another term for it - on that topic to the press?

That's just supposition, of course. Even 'parsing', if you like. Maybe you wouldn't. I suspect I would.

In late July 67 Capitol and Brian discussed the existing Smile booklets and the 10 remaining Smile songs whose titles were not on Smiley Smile, which at that point would not be released until September. At that point (late July) there were plans (if you believe the Capitol memo from Engemann) to release something after Smiley Smile where the booklet would be included relative to the tracks on that album.

By October 1967 the Beach Boys were doing R&B and would do so on their next singles and album.

What damage control needed to be done to the press if Capitol and Brian and the Beach Boys were in agreement over those booklets and the album releases? If plans changed after Smiley Smile was released, plans changed. It's as simple as that...no need for damage control if all sides were informed as shown by that memo (and others).


I thought The Holy Bee's comments about 'damage control' referred to the May quotes by the touring band saying that everything's A-OK after the 'scrapped' comment. But perhaps not.

If it were, we still haven't had a definitive answer on who Altham's source was for the April column that reported twelve tracks were being readied for rush promotion. If it were Carl talking to Altham at that time, it would also be the same Carl saying the album was finished to the LA Times months later, in the weeks immediately after Smiley Smile had just been released. He'd have no damage to control at that time since a new Beach Boys record was in the stores, and Capitol as of late July was on board with the plans through those discussions with Brian to hold the booklet for whenever the remaining ten tracks would be released. It just happened that the next step the Beach Boys took was R&B and Wild Honey, and Capitol managed to pull an advance single and a later single out of that change to the new R&B sound which both went top-20, in some cases higher in markets more tuned in to R&B.
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« Reply #579 on: February 04, 2016, 12:37:45 AM »

Guitarfool2002:
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The same label the band in announcing the lawsuit said they wanted to break out of their contract with? Trying to save face with the label that they had recently publicly (and rightfully) exposed as having defrauded the band (and possibly other artists as well) out of money for several years and wanted to end their contract with wouldn't seem to be a priority.
 

The same label against which they were using the defrauded royalties as leverage to get a monetary pay-out and - most importantly - their own subsidiary label. This isn't conjecture on my part. It's a matter of public record. Grillo, Anderle, members of the band are all on record on this. Is your counter-argument that the Beach Boys didn't go to the press and say, 'Oh, we don't actually want to leave Capitol - we just want our own label. So we're pretending we might leave to force them to give us one'?

Emily:
Quote
I thought The Holy Bee's comments about 'damage control' referred to the May quotes by the touring band saying that everything's A-OK after the 'scrapped' comment. But perhaps not.

Yes, but later in 1967 - post Smiley Smile - too.

Guitarfool2002:
Quote
Carl Wilson, in Fall 1967 after the release of Smiley Smile says the following (in bold and italics in my re-quote):

- They did not "scrap" Smile, despite what Taylor's May 6th article said.

- They had parts which they just haven't used yet, suggesting some of the Smile material may still see the light of day in some form (backed up by various Capitol memos from the months prior as well)

- They had finished the album in some way and at some point, which backs up the Altham piece from late April where he wrote the "12 tracks are finished"

- They did not all agree on some things...anyone's guess what those were.

- They decided to do something new, and started from scratch, exact words according to Carl. *Not* continue "Smile", not have what they were doing with Smile transition seamlessly into Smiley Smile as some are suggesting, but rather start from scratch and start something new. There isn't much of a way to parse or twist Carl's own description to suggest Smile just morphed into Smiley Smile by June 1967 without a definite start and end point when he says they "started from scratch" and recorded this new album which was Smiley Smile.

Further, Carl again suggests the actual "Smile" material was not scrapped and might still be coming out, i.e. "we just haven't used them yet".

My previous post is as true - if not more so - in this later context. They're officially back/still with Capitol. They've got their pay-out. They have their own label. There's thousands of Capitol's dollars worth of '66-'67 recordings sitting in storage unreleased. There's thousands of dollars worth of pre-printed covers and booklets unused. Am I really parsing things too closely here? And - just as an observation - the only known source of one of the two 'we've finished the album' statements released in the press is Carl.

Guitarfool states that Brian and Capitol were in talks to release a 10-track Smile album to make use of this printed stock/recording after 'Smiley Smile'. I know there's a memo from Capitol to Brian on the subject. Is there any record of Brian's active involvement with this plan? A response to Engelman from him? Any public statement? I'm really asking - there might be something I don't know about. But if there isn't, then all we know is a Capitol Exec was keen to try and salvage some of the resources they'd spent on the project, and contacted the band leader with a proposal for how to do so.

Whereas, within six months of the release of Smiley Smile, we do know that Brian Wilson said this:

Quote
Early 1967, I had planned to make an album entitled SMILE. I was working with a guy named Van Dyke Parks, who was collaborating with me on some of the tunes, and in the process, we came up with a song called "Surf's Up," and I performed that with just a piano on a documentary show made on rock music. The song "Surf's Up" that I sang on that documentary never came out on an album, and it was supposed to come out on the SMILE album, and that and a couple of other songs were junked... because... I don't know why... for some reason didn't want to put them on the album. And the group nearly broke up, actually broke up for good after that.

And, later, said this:

Quote
Cam Mott:
“After I came down off the drugs and saw what I had done with Smile, I junked it.”  Brian Wilson

"I junked it. We junked them. I didn’t like where the music was coming from. I thought it was inappropriate for the Beach Boys and I junked it.”  Brian Wilson

“We never finished it, because a lot of that sh*t just bothered me - but half of it we didn’t finish anyway." Brian Wilson

"“We didn’t finish it because we had a lot of problems, inner group problems. We had time commitments we couldn’t keep, so we stopped."  Brian Wilson
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Emily
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« Reply #580 on: February 04, 2016, 12:59:34 AM »

So is it reasonable to conclude that Carl and Brian weren't on the same page on some of this?
Cam posted that Brian quote - "early 1967, I had planned..." And now there's the quote - "We didn't finish it because..."
Both of these quotes point to "inner group problems."
I recall thinking when I saw that first quote, and it seems supported here, that Brian was personally pleased with the music but became convinced that it wasn't commercial enough (I remember that quote went on to say something about sometimes the writer likes a song but realizes it won't be commercial), and that there was a conflict bad enough that "the group nearly broke up". It sounds like Carl wanted to put the material out, and Dennis had always been positive about it, but maybe Brian ended up agreeing with Mike Love that it wasn't sufficiently commercial and they had some pretty tough conflict over it.
Sorry I'm not looking the quote up in full. I'm traveling and am using a wonky device instead of my computer.
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« Reply #581 on: February 04, 2016, 01:46:31 AM »

Would the Carl who was telling Altham the album was ready to go on a rush release schedule be the same Carl who was so involved in the draft problems that he was unable to tell Taylor the album was scrapped at almost the same time ? He was either too busy, or  not.
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« Reply #582 on: February 04, 2016, 02:05:36 AM »

I'll simplify something.

Fall 1967: Carl says the album was finished.

Fall 1972: Carl says they're going to finish up the album.

Now, one of those statements is obviously untrue. Bear in mind that the later statement was preceded by Carl actually going into the vault and listening to the tapes. So was he lying in 1967, or was he simply not fully aware of the true facts ? Strong language, lying. To be used with extreme caution.
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« Reply #583 on: February 04, 2016, 03:39:40 AM »

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So was he lying in 1967, or was he simply not fully aware of the true facts ? Strong language, lying. To be used with extreme caution

Just to be clear: I never meant to imply that Carl was lying about 'Smile being finished'. In terms of Altham, I argued earlier that - on the basis of the tracklist - you could argue that most of the songs were basically finished, give or take an 'Elements' or a 'Surf's Up'. Several had leads, and several others were apparently just a couple hours lead vox sessions away from completion. Rough assemblies, rough mixing, backing vox - a lot of these were done. I've told a boss before that something was 'finished' and what that meant was it  would be finished by 5pm, or whenever the deadline was. No lie intended, in any practical or ethical sense. I believed at the time I said it, it would be. And it (almost) always was.

Let's remember that this was the first (and perhaps only) Beach Boys album to be conceived and composed by Brian so separately from the rest of the group. Even if he had hired Usher or Asher to write lyrics before, the group on tour was usually only a few days or weeks away from that process. In the case of Smile, they came back as 'conquering heroes' from the UK, and found the whole 'town had changed' (Vosse/Anderle). In Carlin, for instance, Van Dyke reports that the first time he met Mike was at the December confrontation over the lyrics to 'Cabin Essence', when Brian - without explanation - called him into the studio. And Smile had been being officially recorded since August, with band vocals recorded as early as September ('Prayer').

So when I say Carl might have been being diplomatic in the press, I mean only that. I think the overall takeaway from this thread is that there was genuine confusion in the band, the label, and their various press connections as to exactly what the score was. None of them seem to have really known (cf. the April-May quotes from Dennis, Bruce, Mike et al) where Brian's head was at during this period, if work on the album was ongoing, how close to being done it was, quite what the record was going to be - and maybe he didn't either. My position is simply that Brian's public statements (for what they're worth) and the surviving session records (for what they're worth) indicate he'd started removing himself from 'Smile proper' towards the end of '66/start of '67.

I have no doubt that anything Carl said to the press was: what he had been given to believe was true; what he hoped to be true; or what might have been true, or any combination of the above. Just phrased in a way which would do the band the least possible damage with the record label that had paid for those recordings, and which they had just successfully sued.  

EDIT: Having written all of this, I've just realised Emily summed it up far more succinctly just above:

Quote
So is it reasonable to conclude that Carl and Brian weren't on the same page on some of this?

Yes. That's what I was trying to suggest.
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« Reply #584 on: February 04, 2016, 03:49:51 AM »

Just to make it even clearerer, wasn't looking at you.  Grin
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« Reply #585 on: February 04, 2016, 03:55:12 AM »

Sorry, another one: what I wrote above is most relevant pre-or-contemporary-to the release of Smiley Smile, perhaps less so as '67 got closer to '68. I still don't mean to make out that Carl was lying. I guess what I'm saying is, if he believed in April-June '67 that the original album was almost ready to release (minus H&V and GV), then he would presumably believe the same six months or a year later. Right up until '72, as AGD points out, when he actually listened to the extant tapes.
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« Reply #586 on: February 04, 2016, 03:56:15 AM »

Just to make it even clearerer, wasn't looking at you.  Grin

Good to know. In any case, redundant posting is kinda my thing.  Cheesy
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« Reply #587 on: February 04, 2016, 04:50:17 AM »

Question: Who paid for those April Vegetables sessions, the band or Capitol? How about Carl's sessions unrelated to Smile yet held at the same time, did the band or Capitol pick up the tab for those?


Someone else should take a look but I believe Capitol is shown as the "employer" for April Vegetables and May ILTSDD.  Not sure I understand what was happening with Tones as it seems to be both shown as to Capitol and Brother Records.
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« Reply #588 on: February 04, 2016, 04:50:17 AM »

Double post.
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« Reply #589 on: February 04, 2016, 05:07:39 AM »

Shocking echo in here, what ?
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« Reply #590 on: February 04, 2016, 05:13:07 AM »

Shocking echo in here, what ?

I wasn't getting enough attention so I'm posting everything twice.
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« Reply #591 on: February 04, 2016, 05:21:45 AM »

I particularly like that Cam's 'double post' post (considering the next two directly relate to it) could make this thread even more incomprehensible for the casual reader. And considering the amount of time we've spent on the studio doors at Western 3 and press clippings from the middle of 1967, that's quite an achievement.
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« Reply #592 on: February 04, 2016, 05:39:06 AM »

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So was he lying in 1967, or was he simply not fully aware of the true facts ? Strong language, lying. To be used with extreme caution

Just to be clear: I never meant to imply that Carl was lying about 'Smile being finished'. In terms of Altham, I argued earlier that - on the basis of the tracklist - you could argue that most of the songs were basically finished, give or take an 'Elements' or a 'Surf's Up'. Several had leads, and several others were apparently just a couple hours lead vox sessions away from completion. Rough assemblies, rough mixing, backing vox - a lot of these were done. I've told a boss before that something was 'finished' and what that meant was it  would be finished by 5pm, or whenever the deadline was. No lie intended, in any practical or ethical sense. I believed at the time I said it, it would be. And it (almost) always was.

Let's remember that this was the first (and perhaps only) Beach Boys album to be conceived and composed by Brian so separately from the rest of the group. Even if he had hired Usher or Asher to write lyrics before, the group on tour was usually only a few days or weeks away from that process. In the case of Smile, they came back as 'conquering heroes' from the UK, and found the whole 'town had changed' (Vosse/Anderle). In Carlin, for instance, Van Dyke reports that the first time he met Mike was at the December confrontation over the lyrics to 'Cabin Essence', when Brian - without explanation - called him into the studio. And Smile had been being officially recorded since August, with band vocals recorded as early as September ('Prayer').

So when I say Carl might have been being diplomatic in the press, I mean only that. I think the overall takeaway from this thread is that there was genuine confusion in the band, the label, and their various press connections as to exactly what the score was. None of them seem to have really known (cf. the April-May quotes from Dennis, Bruce, Mike et al) where Brian's head was at during this period, if work on the album was ongoing, how close to being done it was, quite what the record was going to be - and maybe he didn't either. My position is simply that Brian's public statements (for what they're worth) and the surviving session records (for what they're worth) indicate he'd started removing himself from 'Smile proper' towards the end of '66/start of '67.

I have no doubt that anything Carl said to the press was: what he had been given to believe was true; what he hoped to be true; or what might have been true, or any combination of the above. Just phrased in a way which would do the band the least possible damage with the record label that had paid for those recordings, and which they had just successfully sued.  

EDIT: Having written all of this, I've just realised Emily summed it up far more succinctly just above:

Quote
So is it reasonable to conclude that Carl and Brian weren't on the same page on some of this?

Yes. That's what I was trying to suggest.

THB - you mention something very interesting that I have glossed over but have read multiple times.  Thank you.  

"...In the case of Smile, they came back as conquering heroes' from the UK, and found the whole 'town had changed.' (Vosse/Anderle)" - Conquering heroes?  

After being smacked around in the UK press with the TIKH tour?  The kindest term I can use is "nonsense" because it is nicer than what I am thinking.  And the polar opposite and inconsistent with the less-than-stellar reviews alleging they were all washed up.  They go from being "washed up" to "heroes?" Propaganda.

When there is such a statement that does not line up with the actual events (and it does not) means to me that there is some big-time spin control going on.  The "town changed?" Seriously?

Or, was there a PR prep underway for Monterey to conform to an image, inconsistent with the band, with the regressive promo in Europe? JMHO  

Thanks again, for that citation.  Wink

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« Reply #593 on: February 04, 2016, 05:39:14 AM »

Has any other Beach Boy ever said SMiLE was finished?

The SMiLE album artwork was ready and publicized in March and the actual album covers were done in April, so we are thinking that Brian is deliberately still recording tracks for SMiLE of alternate title or title that will not appear on the album covers that are either being made or already made instead of those alternate tracks being for the alternate album Smiley Smile.  It said "See label for correct playing order" not "for correct titles and unlisted songs".
Hi Cam, I'm sorry to ask you to repeat something; I looked back a few pages and couldn't find it, though I know it's there: when did the spelling of 'vegetables' change? And was it consistently one way and then consistently another after a certain date? And was there a song on Smiley Smile that they worked on before they went to the home studio that was not on the Smile sleeve?

I don't know that "Vega-Tables" was ever on any session documentation, even for the "cornucopia" demo.  As far as I know it was consistently spelled "Vega-Tables" on all SMiLE documentation (track list, booklet) and the titles of the publicized SMiLE album mock ups of March.

Then from April 4 on (when the SMiLE album covers were being made or were already finished), as far as I know, it had alternate lyrics to Vega-Tables, had a different master number and session number that was continuous from then on, was always noted as "Vegetables" on AFM and Capitol session documents and tape boxes and session vocal slates as "Vegetables", and on the Smiley Smile album back liner track list. Other titles from late March, April, and May do not appear on the SMiLE track list either and I believe they also were recorded under the SMiLE/Smiley Capitol album project number as was "Vegetables" (not certain about "Tones").
 
Well that's confusing. I'm beginning to see how people have spent decades and reams of paper on this subject!

Not if you think of it this way, it was Vega-Tables on SMiLE and Vegetables on Smiley.
But then that means that even as the sleeves were being printed for Smile, Brian had already decided that he wasn't releasing it? And that the rest of the band didn't know he'd made that decision? Or would they have all known but as the Holy Bee suggests smoothing it over? Or was Brian just reworking that song, then was happy with the change and they kept it when they shifted to Smiley Smile? Or was 'vegetables' re-recorded again at the house? Were there ultimately three complete versions, 'Vega-Tables', 'Vegetables' studio, and 'Vegetables' house?
It's probably less confusing for you, Cam, because you've absorbed this information before, but my head is swimming trying to keep up with this thread!

Cam is the only one who feels this Vega-Tables to Vegetables name change means anything other than the name changed.  He has been relentlessly stating this over and over again, and not one taker on the board has given it any credence but that hasn't stopped him from sticking it in post after post.  No evidence it has anything to do with  one being Smile and the other being Smiley,  in fact everything seems to point to Vegetables sessions in April being exactly similar to other Smile sessions, and of course Carl points out the June date they started from scratch with Smiley.

I've said before that with Cam's thinking, Heroes and VILLIANS (how the song is spelled on the track list and album cover) therefore must be the song intended for Smile, and all the sessions booked in Oct through March were for Heroes and VILLAINS, which is how it's spelled for Smiley Smile, so clearly Smile was scratched in October 66 and Brian was recording the VILLAINS song for Smiley.  And of course there are lyrical changes between the different versions of Heores.  It's all nonsensical thinking.  I hate to see you get drawn into it as it only confuses what is already confusing enough.
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« Reply #594 on: February 04, 2016, 06:20:51 AM »

Has any other Beach Boy ever said SMiLE was finished?

The SMiLE album artwork was ready and publicized in March and the actual album covers were done in April, so we are thinking that Brian is deliberately still recording tracks for SMiLE of alternate title or title that will not appear on the album covers that are either being made or already made instead of those alternate tracks being for the alternate album Smiley Smile.  It said "See label for correct playing order" not "for correct titles and unlisted songs".
Hi Cam, I'm sorry to ask you to repeat something; I looked back a few pages and couldn't find it, though I know it's there: when did the spelling of 'vegetables' change? And was it consistently one way and then consistently another after a certain date? And was there a song on Smiley Smile that they worked on before they went to the home studio that was not on the Smile sleeve?

I don't know that "Vega-Tables" was ever on any session documentation, even for the "cornucopia" demo.  As far as I know it was consistently spelled "Vega-Tables" on all SMiLE documentation (track list, booklet) and the titles of the publicized SMiLE album mock ups of March.

Then from April 4 on (when the SMiLE album covers were being made or were already finished), as far as I know, it had alternate lyrics to Vega-Tables, had a different master number and session number that was continuous from then on, was always noted as "Vegetables" on AFM and Capitol session documents and tape boxes and session vocal slates as "Vegetables", and on the Smiley Smile album back liner track list. Other titles from late March, April, and May do not appear on the SMiLE track list either and I believe they also were recorded under the SMiLE/Smiley Capitol album project number as was "Vegetables" (not certain about "Tones").
 
Well that's confusing. I'm beginning to see how people have spent decades and reams of paper on this subject!

Not if you think of it this way, it was Vega-Tables on SMiLE and Vegetables on Smiley.
But then that means that even as the sleeves were being printed for Smile, Brian had already decided that he wasn't releasing it? And that the rest of the band didn't know he'd made that decision? Or would they have all known but as the Holy Bee suggests smoothing it over? Or was Brian just reworking that song, then was happy with the change and they kept it when they shifted to Smiley Smile? Or was 'vegetables' re-recorded again at the house? Were there ultimately three complete versions, 'Vega-Tables', 'Vegetables' studio, and 'Vegetables' house?
It's probably less confusing for you, Cam, because you've absorbed this information before, but my head is swimming trying to keep up with this thread!

Cam is the only one who feels this Vega-Tables to Vegetables name change means anything other than the name changed.  He has been relentlessly stating this over and over again, and not one taker on the board has given it any credence but that hasn't stopped him from sticking it in post after post.  No evidence it has anything to do with  one being Smile and the other being Smiley,  in fact everything seems to point to Vegetables sessions in April being exactly similar to other Smile sessions, and of course Carl points out the June date they started from scratch with Smiley.

I've said before that with Cam's thinking, Heroes and VILLIANS (how the song is spelled on the track list and album cover) therefore must be the song intended for Smile, and all the sessions booked in Oct through March were for Heroes and VILLAINS, which is how it's spelled for Smiley Smile, so clearly Smile was scratched in October 66 and Brian was recording the VILLAINS song for Smiley.  And of course there are lyrical changes between the different versions of Heores.  It's all nonsensical thinking.  I hate to see you get drawn into it as it only confuses what is already confusing enough.
Orthography is not their strong suit.  Pre spell-check.  And, no biggie.
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« Reply #595 on: February 04, 2016, 06:23:57 AM »

Has any other Beach Boy ever said SMiLE was finished?

The SMiLE album artwork was ready and publicized in March and the actual album covers were done in April, so we are thinking that Brian is deliberately still recording tracks for SMiLE of alternate title or title that will not appear on the album covers that are either being made or already made instead of those alternate tracks being for the alternate album Smiley Smile.  It said "See label for correct playing order" not "for correct titles and unlisted songs".
Hi Cam, I'm sorry to ask you to repeat something; I looked back a few pages and couldn't find it, though I know it's there: when did the spelling of 'vegetables' change? And was it consistently one way and then consistently another after a certain date? And was there a song on Smiley Smile that they worked on before they went to the home studio that was not on the Smile sleeve?

I don't know that "Vega-Tables" was ever on any session documentation, even for the "cornucopia" demo.  As far as I know it was consistently spelled "Vega-Tables" on all SMiLE documentation (track list, booklet) and the titles of the publicized SMiLE album mock ups of March.

Then from April 4 on (when the SMiLE album covers were being made or were already finished), as far as I know, it had alternate lyrics to Vega-Tables, had a different master number and session number that was continuous from then on, was always noted as "Vegetables" on AFM and Capitol session documents and tape boxes and session vocal slates as "Vegetables", and on the Smiley Smile album back liner track list. Other titles from late March, April, and May do not appear on the SMiLE track list either and I believe they also were recorded under the SMiLE/Smiley Capitol album project number as was "Vegetables" (not certain about "Tones").
 
Well that's confusing. I'm beginning to see how people have spent decades and reams of paper on this subject!

Not if you think of it this way, it was Vega-Tables on SMiLE and Vegetables on Smiley.
But then that means that even as the sleeves were being printed for Smile, Brian had already decided that he wasn't releasing it? And that the rest of the band didn't know he'd made that decision? Or would they have all known but as the Holy Bee suggests smoothing it over? Or was Brian just reworking that song, then was happy with the change and they kept it when they shifted to Smiley Smile? Or was 'vegetables' re-recorded again at the house? Were there ultimately three complete versions, 'Vega-Tables', 'Vegetables' studio, and 'Vegetables' house?
It's probably less confusing for you, Cam, because you've absorbed this information before, but my head is swimming trying to keep up with this thread!

Cam is the only one who feels this Vega-Tables to Vegetables name change means anything other than the name changed.  He has been relentlessly stating this over and over again, and not one taker on the board has given it any credence but that hasn't stopped him from sticking it in post after post.  No evidence it has anything to do with  one being Smile and the other being Smiley,  in fact everything seems to point to Vegetables sessions in April being exactly similar to other Smile sessions, and of course Carl points out the June date they started from scratch with Smiley.

I've said before that with Cam's thinking, Heroes and VILLIANS (how the song is spelled on the track list and album cover) therefore must be the song intended for Smile, and all the sessions booked in Oct through March were for Heroes and VILLAINS, which is how it's spelled for Smiley Smile, so clearly Smile was scratched in October 66 and Brian was recording the VILLAINS song for Smiley.  And of course there are lyrical changes between the different versions of Heores.  It's all nonsensical thinking.  I hate to see you get drawn into it as it only confuses what is already confusing enough.

Thanks for your concern Lou, but I'll be fine.  I've given plenty of evidence and documentation but not everybody agrees with it, their ears are better evidence apparently, telling them stuff.......evidence stuff.

Actually Lou, I already responded on H&V.  Maybe you have more documentation then I do, but as far as I have, all but one session from October through March is documented as for the "Heroes and Villians" title which would match the SMiLE title.  I believe all but 2 of the H&V Part II/Side 2 #57045 sessions are also logged as "Heroes and Villians". I believe all of the June thorough July sessions are documented as "Heroes and Villains" as on the Smiley Smile track list.  Can anyone with complete-ish documentation confirm or deny.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 06:56:18 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #596 on: February 04, 2016, 07:15:27 AM »

I feel there's an agenda at work here. Wink

If there's any agenda at work here, I can think of no greater evidence than the blatant question-dodging that happened earlier in this thread.  

CD - are you adding to the fact base of information of what happened in the Spring of 1967, in a dispassionate way?

You accused me of question-dodging.  And, in a context of this new PC concept called "micro-aggression" - which I happily use in quotations.  Maybe you can tell us what that term that means.  

Dispassionately, is what I am looking at.  First-hand, from a principal, like Carl's interview, telling the world that the Smile tapes were safe and secure.  And not from some propaganda source that may be becoming debunked.  

Please don't ask me to opine on other ancillary players, when I was not there as a witness.  

It’s quite simple: there’s a not negligible element at play when “adding to the fact base of information of what happened in the Spring of 1967” as you put it. A white elephant in the room that some people, such as yourself, try to avoid getting into is whether or not it’s logical that Brian’s state of mind would likely have been impacted, even in the slightest, by his bandmates' actions/vibes. IMO it’s enormously offbase to just try to blot that area out with White-Out simply because we aren’t “privy” to what happened. It’s true –we aren’t privy, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t make assumptions based on logic. It’s completely illogical to say that a person in a band, under enormous pressure, wouldn’t be impacted AT ALL by their mates’ opinions, frustrations, and questions. Our lack of full scope of their interpersonal relationships at the time does not negate the potential impact these actions could have made, does it?

You are clearly a big fan of the band, know the BB story and personalities very well (likely as well as most anyone could who’s not in the inner circle), and clearly everyone has some sort of opinion in their head, one way or another, about whether or not what I’ve just mentioned is remotely fathomable.  It either is possible, or it is not possible. Neither I, nor anyone on this board I’m sure, honestly believes that you don’t have an opinion either way about it. It’s yay or nay, or somewhere in between. It’s not “no answer”. Neither of us have the conclusive answer to what we are discussing – you can only pick what you honestly think is the most logical answer of the two choices: you think it likely had an effect (however insignificant)... or  you are claiming it’s logical to think that Brian’s mates had NO effect whatsoever on his state of mind. One of those two scenarios played out, and you know it.  

If you are somehow not dodging a question, please direct me to what you believe an example of dodging a question WOULD be. Or will you dodge this last question too?

It’s kind of like you saying that we only know that Murry or Landy had any kind of negative effect on Brian’s state of mind because of physical damage that happened from those guys, but that potential emotional wounds inflicted by other people are completely unimportant because we don’t have any physical proof of them. Pics or it didn’t happen, right? You do realize that type of mindset is exactly how emotional abusers continue to get away with abuse. No physical injuries means no emotional trauma or mistreatment could POSSIBLY have happened at any time, ever... right?

You surely have an opinion (perhaps somewhat mixed, not a black-and-white opinion, but an opinion nonetheless) of Murry and/or Landy, right? Every knowledgeable, well-read BB fan (such as yourself) does, to some degree. But you weren't there as a witness. So how exactly does that work? Care to explain?

PS - regarding my terminology of "microagressions" - while I have heard the term used by people in reference to subtle, aggressive comments in general, I may have misused the word since the dictionary seems to imply it is most appropriately used regarding racial stereotypes. So I'd replace that terminology with "passive aggression" or other behaviors that would have either directly or indirectly displayed dissatisfaction, lack of support, etc.  Stuff that a sensitive person could blow out of proportion. Because, you know, Brian's a sensitive guy who's been known to do that sometimes.
CD - If you look at THB's post on page 24, you will see some additional information about that era that I have not seen discussed but "generally accepted" and "swallowed whole."  That is the press nonsense (Vosse/Anderle) announcing they "conquered Europe (I am paraphrasing)  and came back home finding everything had changed."  - They were not triumphant in Europe with the TIKH tour.  Did they sell records?  Yes.  That is well beside-the-point. They were apparently blindsided with what that tour was all about.  I think there was a set-up of some kind.  The responses from several band members including Brian support that.

Second, of course I am a big fan of the band. As a teen, it sure beat algebra, trigonometry and geometry. I blindly devoured everything I could get my hands on. Who would join a message board otherwise?  Even the lurkers.  They have been fueled in some manner by the music.  I am no different.

Third, "getting into someone's mind-space" is well outside of my expertise.  I will not opine about Brian's state-of-mind and his interpersonal relationships. I find that ridiculous. Nor, will I be goaded into such a discussion.  Forgettaboutit.  Ain't happenin'.

Fourth, here is some of what we know about Murry, both good and bad.  Murry, did pave the way for their ultimate success.  Outside the earshot of the band, he likely did some wheeling-and-dealing.  We know, from the court findings, he was inappropriate with the apportionment of royalties. I wish this was emphasized more.  

It pit Brian and Mike against one another and it was all needless.  Maybe, it went back to sibling rivalry for him or some other dark place where he felt compelled to indirectly assert some power against the child of a sibling.  Beyond that, who would ever know what went on in his head?  From accounts, (and not at a witness, and I must separate the two) he was not always a nice guy.  Some who worked with them (some studio guy, whose name escapes me) commented that even though he was harsh, Murry wanted them to work together as a family and found that appropriate.  So that is someone else's opinion.  

Murry came from a time when he may have treated his wife and kids as chattel, as was a vestige of the Old World ways.  That is just the history of how people and society evolved.  We never heard about spousal or child abuse.  If it was your property, it was accepted even though people turned a blind eye, as the "legal head of the family."  He thought it was his right.  We accept now that he was wrong.

Fifth, I can opine about Landy, because I have some training in Ethics.  He crossed the line, ethically, making himself part of his patient's business.  But families  often make decisions that are unorthodox to try to save their family members lives and I will say, for this "Who am I to judge?" - like that Native American mantra, "Grant that I may not judge a man, until I have walked a mile in his moccasins." Not going there.  The Hand of God through a human (Melinda) saved Brian.  Now, it is a movie.  

And, microaggressions.  Standing back, looking at the relative positions of the parties, as company owners, who "pay" an ancillary contributor, I maintain that Mike Love had every right to inquire as to how what VDP wrote would "fly" with his share of the BRI product, because that is what your are alluding to.  

And, Mike might have been "put up" to making this inquiry by the rest of the band.  Think that Carl, with barely a high school eduction or Dennis, could be a match for VDP's manner of conversation or literary prowess?  I don't think so.  And Mike, bona fide lyricist, ends up taking the heat.  Directly or indirectly Mike is paying for VDP's labor.  If I am paying, for a brake job on my car, think I have a right (as a consumer)  to inquire into all related matters, such as quality of brake parts, or the mechanic?  And I have a responsibility to do exactly that, to ensure I am not wasting my money.  You betcha!

But, here is the disconnect and utter inconsistency, which has already been written about...I liken it to two trains going parallel on a track... I taught Kindergarten, (greatest job on the planet) so, I will break it down, accordingly.  I can opine, here.   LOL

It was reported in one of these books, maybe Carlin,  or the other two (Rusten/Stebbins or Badman) that Brian and VDP were writing together, in a parallel fashion side-by-side, like the 2 trains, and perhaps perceived, or in reality that VDP had pulled "way ahead" in terms of concepts matching the music.  All of a sudden, Brian stops his train, while VDP flies ahead.  In this concept, the tail (VDP) is wagging-the-dog (Brian.) VDP serves at Brian's (and the rest of the band's) pleasure.  It is not the reverse.  

And, I hate the terms Brianistas and Kokomaoists.  It is so disparaging and intolerant.  My good fortune started me at a place where I look at them as The Beach Boys, notwithstanding the current touring arrangements.   Newer fans may not understand that.  But it works for me, and I won't be apologizing for that position, any time soon.  Wink      
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 07:21:54 AM by filledeplage » Logged
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« Reply #597 on: February 04, 2016, 07:57:39 AM »

Guitarfool2002:
Quote
The same label the band in announcing the lawsuit said they wanted to break out of their contract with? Trying to save face with the label that they had recently publicly (and rightfully) exposed as having defrauded the band (and possibly other artists as well) out of money for several years and wanted to end their contract with wouldn't seem to be a priority.
 

The same label against which they were using the defrauded royalties as leverage to get a monetary pay-out and - most importantly - their own subsidiary label. This isn't conjecture on my part. It's a matter of public record. Grillo, Anderle, members of the band are all on record on this. Is your counter-argument that the Beach Boys didn't go to the press and say, 'Oh, we don't actually want to leave Capitol - we just want our own label. So we're pretending we might leave to force them to give us one'?

Emily:
Quote
I thought The Holy Bee's comments about 'damage control' referred to the May quotes by the touring band saying that everything's A-OK after the 'scrapped' comment. But perhaps not.

Yes, but later in 1967 - post Smiley Smile - too.

Guitarfool2002:
Quote
Carl Wilson, in Fall 1967 after the release of Smiley Smile says the following (in bold and italics in my re-quote):

- They did not "scrap" Smile, despite what Taylor's May 6th article said.

- They had parts which they just haven't used yet, suggesting some of the Smile material may still see the light of day in some form (backed up by various Capitol memos from the months prior as well)

- They had finished the album in some way and at some point, which backs up the Altham piece from late April where he wrote the "12 tracks are finished"

- They did not all agree on some things...anyone's guess what those were.

- They decided to do something new, and started from scratch, exact words according to Carl. *Not* continue "Smile", not have what they were doing with Smile transition seamlessly into Smiley Smile as some are suggesting, but rather start from scratch and start something new. There isn't much of a way to parse or twist Carl's own description to suggest Smile just morphed into Smiley Smile by June 1967 without a definite start and end point when he says they "started from scratch" and recorded this new album which was Smiley Smile.

Further, Carl again suggests the actual "Smile" material was not scrapped and might still be coming out, i.e. "we just haven't used them yet".

My previous post is as true - if not more so - in this later context. They're officially back/still with Capitol. They've got their pay-out. They have their own label. There's thousands of Capitol's dollars worth of '66-'67 recordings sitting in storage unreleased. There's thousands of dollars worth of pre-printed covers and booklets unused. Am I really parsing things too closely here? And - just as an observation - the only known source of one of the two 'we've finished the album' statements released in the press is Carl.

Guitarfool states that Brian and Capitol were in talks to release a 10-track Smile album to make use of this printed stock/recording after 'Smiley Smile'. I know there's a memo from Capitol to Brian on the subject. Is there any record of Brian's active involvement with this plan? A response to Engelman from him? Any public statement? I'm really asking - there might be something I don't know about. But if there isn't, then all we know is a Capitol Exec was keen to try and salvage some of the resources they'd spent on the project, and contacted the band leader with a proposal for how to do so.

Whereas, within six months of the release of Smiley Smile, we do know that Brian Wilson said this:

Quote
Early 1967, I had planned to make an album entitled SMILE. I was working with a guy named Van Dyke Parks, who was collaborating with me on some of the tunes, and in the process, we came up with a song called "Surf's Up," and I performed that with just a piano on a documentary show made on rock music. The song "Surf's Up" that I sang on that documentary never came out on an album, and it was supposed to come out on the SMILE album, and that and a couple of other songs were junked... because... I don't know why... for some reason didn't want to put them on the album. And the group nearly broke up, actually broke up for good after that.

And, later, said this:

Quote
Cam Mott:
“After I came down off the drugs and saw what I had done with Smile, I junked it.”  Brian Wilson

"I junked it. We junked them. I didn’t like where the music was coming from. I thought it was inappropriate for the Beach Boys and I junked it.”  Brian Wilson

“We never finished it, because a lot of that sh*t just bothered me - but half of it we didn’t finish anyway." Brian Wilson

"“We didn’t finish it because we had a lot of problems, inner group problems. We had time commitments we couldn’t keep, so we stopped."  Brian Wilson

Read the memo, it says "I agreed with Brian..." (about the booklets). Brian was involved in that decision.

By the time Carl spoke to the LA Times in fall 67, the lawsuit had been settled and the Beach Boys won. They had nothing to leverage, they got what they wanted and had a new Brother Records label on their new album, plus two singles on their new label. Plus, they got the money and the new contracts too. They ran the table on Capitol.
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« Reply #598 on: February 04, 2016, 08:08:41 AM »

I'll simplify something.

Fall 1967: Carl says the album was finished.

Fall 1972: Carl says they're going to finish up the album.

Now, one of those statements is obviously untrue. Bear in mind that the later statement was preceded by Carl actually going into the vault and listening to the tapes. So was he lying in 1967, or was he simply not fully aware of the true facts ? Strong language, lying. To be used with extreme caution.

Was the Surf's Up album already complete or released when Carl said that? If so - and this is BB's History 101 - the band had already officially released versions of 8 out of the 12 on the Capitol tracklist and back cover. Some were "finished" as in adding new parts to existing structures, some were full re-recordings, some were reworked into other songs (Child Is Father...).

But we all know that already. If it were any way connecting that tracklist they gave to Capitol to what Capitol and the press releases were saying was "12 songs" then "10 songs" after the Heroes and Vegetables singles (and GV somehow in there too)...it's too bad we can't ask Carl what he meant. All we have are the tracklists and tracks that were actually released.
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« Reply #599 on: February 04, 2016, 08:22:01 AM »

I'm asking the original poster, why did you delete the original post that had the Carl quotes?

Where they were posted was changed to this hours later:
edit

For reference, here is the original post with the quotes:

Excerpts from "The Beach Boys' Quickest Album" , LA Times, October 8th 1967:

"Well, the album didn't really head for any direction. We just decided to, or I should say Brian decided to, make a real simple album. So, with that in mind, we recorded it at his house and it's the quickest album we've ever done." (Carl Wilson quote)

"You see, the whole thing is that 'Pet Sounds' was really an expanded type of musical thing. It's really quite a musical album and we got into a thing where we just wanted to ease up and make a simple album. It was a nice change. It's very hard on a person to keep on doing a 'Pet Sounds.'" (Carl Wilson quote)

Last year, when "Good Vibrations" was racking up its million-plus sales, Capitol had the follow-up album scheduled under the title of "Smile." The album jacket already had been printed, a picture of a shop which dispensed smiles. But the album never came out and the Beach Boys became embroiled in a royalty suit against Capitol. Rumors said that Brian, a perfectionist, had destroyed all the tapes for the LP. "We didn't scrap them," Carl said. "We just haven't used them yet. We did it all from scratch when we started again. We actually had finished the album but then a lot of things didn't turn out the way Brian liked. We all didn't agree on different types of things. We decided to do something new."

"If he gets an idea it's now and it's better than something from the past. I've seen it a hundred times. We've seen a lot of potentially great songs just be shelved. They come out maybe two or three years later, but they're in his mind somehow. If that particular idea seems to fit what he's working on at the time it will just come naturally." (Mike Love quote)


Is something going on that needs to be reported or was there a problem with the original post that made it necessary to go back later and delete it?
« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 08:22:59 AM by guitarfool2002 » Logged

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