Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I feel there's an agenda at work here.

[guitarfool2002]

Why not let Carl's words stand as they were published and let those reading it do so without the clarifications and other items added? I had a feeling this would happen...clarifying what he meant by the "scrap" line, etc. That is parsing. Let those reading read his words first before trying to tell anyone what Carl meant 49 years later.

Cam Mott served up a list of Brian quotes instead of commenting a single word of his own on what Carl said. No comments, Cam? Could it be because it looks like Carl in 1967 may have effectively shredded (or should I say scrapped?) some of the Smile theories Cam has been posting on this and other boards for over a decade? It's much harder to disprove Carl because he has a reputation among the fan base and both Carl and his word is held in high regard, so instead it's "well Carl said this, but Brian said this and here are a dozen quotes to back me up...". Says a lot about the whole ball of wax. How about addressing what Carl said?

Now Carl's statements were "more or less prepared"...Wait, how could that possibly be known enough what went into that interview in 1967 to even comment on it? It cannot, and we don't know what was prepared and what was Carl talking off the cuff, which is why I question even bringing it up unless it's to cast doubt on what he said or why he said it.  It means nothing to the point of applying what he did say to the discussions at hand and weighing them into the discourse.

We were asking for firsthand evidence from the Beach Boys, there it is. Carl Wilson, Fall 1967. Got what we asked for. If it doesn't support but instead serves to refute some popular theories and notions about Smile and Smiley Smile and the rest of it, it might be a case of "be careful what you wish for" since this (and possibly others we have not seen yet) information is exactly what some were asking for as the primary evidence possible to weigh these issues: Firsthand quotes from the Beach Boys themselves.

We now have it. Let's weigh it up based on what Carl said, not what we think he said or assume he said or speculate as to why he said it...take the words as they appear first.

Didn't you, in the very first reply to jiggityjars posting, parse the words and tell us what they meant?

My comment is the question was were the tapes destroyed and Carl answered they were not saying: "scrapped". Taylor also said they were not destroyed, so they agreed.

Carl says SMiLE was finished and Altham agreed, Brian says it was never finished with which Taylor agreed.  Carl says Brian was making the calls so there is what Brian said. I don't know who was trying to stop discussion of this thread, you were asking for more witness instead.....you're welcome.

On to what did Carl mean by "start from scratch" and how did Carl calculate "the quickest".  Hopefully Ian will have something that also sheds more light.

Have you considered Carl as the theoretical scrapped announcement conspirator?  (mind blown)

Cam, go back and look at the reactions here to when I first mentioned the possibility that Brian was *not* the source. Of course I've considered it. That's why I said what I said. Suggesting it brought out reactions that made it seem like even suggesting or questioning such a thing was akin to blasphemy in some circles. Implications I was doing it to again bash Mike, suggestions that the whole conversation was pointless or something...so what of those who seem to insist it was and could only be Brian tipping off Derek Taylor? Perhaps you could address some of them too.

Turns out that consideration wasn't so far out after all, was it?

[guitarfool2002]

I feel there's an agenda at work here.

Getting all the available information on the table on a public forum, so everyone can read it publicly and judge for themselves instead of being told what to think or why some should be ignored or dismissed over others...basic historical research, analysis, and application. The fact those Carl Wilson comments were exactly what was being asked for and were delivered with proper credit and citation for the source, then run through the ringer starting with the word "scrap" suggests there are some who might not want to let go of long-held theories that may not hold up as well as previously thought. Or some of the old theories accepted as fact may need to be reconsidered before stating them as fact in light of new information.

[CenturyDeprived]

I feel there's an agenda at work here.

If there's any agenda at work here, I can think of no greater evidence than the blatant question-dodging that happened earlier in this thread. 

[filledeplage]

I feel there's an agenda at work here.

If there's any agenda at work here, I can think of no greater evidence than the blatant question-dodging that happened earlier in this thread.  

CD - are you adding to the fact base of information of what happened in the Spring of 1967, in a dispassionate way?

You accused me of question-dodging.  And, in a context of this new PC concept called "micro-aggression" - which I happily use in quotations.  Maybe you can tell us what that term that means. 

Dispassionately, is what I am looking at.  First-hand, from a principal, like Carl's interview, telling the world that the Smile tapes were safe and secure.  And not from some propaganda source that may be becoming debunked.  

Please don't ask me to opine on other ancillary players, when I was not there as a witness.  

[SMiLE Brian]

I feel there's an agenda at work here.

If there's any agenda at work here, I can think of no greater evidence than the blatant question-dodging that happened earlier in this thread. 

Exactly, it's the wall of kokomaoist question dodging.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

This thread went from very interesting to the world's most inane pissing match. And now Smile Brian is participating. Thread over 

[filledeplage]

This thread went from very interesting to the world's most inane pissing match. And now Smile Brian is participating. Thread over 

Marcella - I would not consider that remark "participating."     

Some here are working hard, to get more clarity to that very muddy era. 

And strive to ignore immature remarks, fighting and keep working.   

Some progress already!     

[Cam Mott]

Why not let Carl's words stand as they were published and let those reading it do so without the clarifications and other items added? I had a feeling this would happen...clarifying what he meant by the "scrap" line, etc. That is parsing. Let those reading read his words first before trying to tell anyone what Carl meant 49 years later.

Cam Mott served up a list of Brian quotes instead of commenting a single word of his own on what Carl said. No comments, Cam? Could it be because it looks like Carl in 1967 may have effectively shredded (or should I say scrapped?) some of the Smile theories Cam has been posting on this and other boards for over a decade? It's much harder to disprove Carl because he has a reputation among the fan base and both Carl and his word is held in high regard, so instead it's "well Carl said this, but Brian said this and here are a dozen quotes to back me up...". Says a lot about the whole ball of wax. How about addressing what Carl said?

Now Carl's statements were "more or less prepared"...Wait, how could that possibly be known enough what went into that interview in 1967 to even comment on it? It cannot, and we don't know what was prepared and what was Carl talking off the cuff, which is why I question even bringing it up unless it's to cast doubt on what he said or why he said it.  It means nothing to the point of applying what he did say to the discussions at hand and weighing them into the discourse.

We were asking for firsthand evidence from the Beach Boys, there it is. Carl Wilson, Fall 1967. Got what we asked for. If it doesn't support but instead serves to refute some popular theories and notions about Smile and Smiley Smile and the rest of it, it might be a case of "be careful what you wish for" since this (and possibly others we have not seen yet) information is exactly what some were asking for as the primary evidence possible to weigh these issues: Firsthand quotes from the Beach Boys themselves.

We now have it. Let's weigh it up based on what Carl said, not what we think he said or assume he said or speculate as to why he said it...take the words as they appear first.

Didn't you, in the very first reply to jiggityjars posting, parse the words and tell us what they meant?

My comment is the question was were the tapes destroyed and Carl answered they were not saying: "scrapped". Taylor also said they were not destroyed, so they agreed.

Carl says SMiLE was finished and Altham agreed, Brian says it was never finished with which Taylor agreed.  Carl says Brian was making the calls so there is what Brian said. I don't know who was trying to stop discussion of this thread, you were asking for more witness instead.....you're welcome.

On to what did Carl mean by "start from scratch" and how did Carl calculate "the quickest".  Hopefully Ian will have something that also sheds more light.

Have you considered Carl as the theoretical scrapped announcement conspirator?  (mind blown)

Cam, go back and look at the reactions here to when I first mentioned the possibility that Brian was *not* the source. Of course I've considered it. That's why I said what I said. Suggesting it brought out reactions that made it seem like even suggesting or questioning such a thing was akin to blasphemy in some circles. Implications I was doing it to again bash Mike, suggestions that the whole conversation was pointless or something...so what of those who seem to insist it was and could only be Brian tipping off Derek Taylor? Perhaps you could address some of them too.

Turns out that consideration wasn't so far out after all, was it?

I'm not one of those saying it could only be Brian but the reveal was to Taylor and it seems almost certain to me that the info came from Brian which Taylor makes clear in a whole series of articles (including the announcement) about that April/May.  

I was joking about Carl. Maybe Ian can turn something, but I'm doubting it right now because I firmly believe there is nothing like that to turn. Brian told Taylor knowing he would report it. As far as I can tell almost all of Taylor's conversations and interviews came from Brian and that's what makes him a good source for stuff Brian was thinking and doing. Altham was mis-informed (as was Carl apparently) that SMiLE was ever finished by Brian (according to Brian, which even Carl says was making those decisions). It's all straightforward as far as I can see from everything presented so far.

[guitarfool2002]

Why not let Carl's words stand as they were published and let those reading it do so without the clarifications and other items added? I had a feeling this would happen...clarifying what he meant by the "scrap" line, etc. That is parsing. Let those reading read his words first before trying to tell anyone what Carl meant 49 years later.

Cam Mott served up a list of Brian quotes instead of commenting a single word of his own on what Carl said. No comments, Cam? Could it be because it looks like Carl in 1967 may have effectively shredded (or should I say scrapped?) some of the Smile theories Cam has been posting on this and other boards for over a decade? It's much harder to disprove Carl because he has a reputation among the fan base and both Carl and his word is held in high regard, so instead it's "well Carl said this, but Brian said this and here are a dozen quotes to back me up...". Says a lot about the whole ball of wax. How about addressing what Carl said?

Now Carl's statements were "more or less prepared"...Wait, how could that possibly be known enough what went into that interview in 1967 to even comment on it? It cannot, and we don't know what was prepared and what was Carl talking off the cuff, which is why I question even bringing it up unless it's to cast doubt on what he said or why he said it.  It means nothing to the point of applying what he did say to the discussions at hand and weighing them into the discourse.

We were asking for firsthand evidence from the Beach Boys, there it is. Carl Wilson, Fall 1967. Got what we asked for. If it doesn't support but instead serves to refute some popular theories and notions about Smile and Smiley Smile and the rest of it, it might be a case of "be careful what you wish for" since this (and possibly others we have not seen yet) information is exactly what some were asking for as the primary evidence possible to weigh these issues: Firsthand quotes from the Beach Boys themselves.

We now have it. Let's weigh it up based on what Carl said, not what we think he said or assume he said or speculate as to why he said it...take the words as they appear first.

Didn't you, in the very first reply to jiggityjars posting, parse the words and tell us what they meant?

My comment is the question was were the tapes destroyed and Carl answered they were not saying: "scrapped". Taylor also said they were not destroyed, so they agreed.

Carl says SMiLE was finished and Altham agreed, Brian says it was never finished with which Taylor agreed.  Carl says Brian was making the calls so there is what Brian said. I don't know who was trying to stop discussion of this thread, you were asking for more witness instead.....you're welcome.

On to what did Carl mean by "start from scratch" and how did Carl calculate "the quickest".  Hopefully Ian will have something that also sheds more light.

Have you considered Carl as the theoretical scrapped announcement conspirator?  (mind blown)

Cam, go back and look at the reactions here to when I first mentioned the possibility that Brian was *not* the source. Of course I've considered it. That's why I said what I said. Suggesting it brought out reactions that made it seem like even suggesting or questioning such a thing was akin to blasphemy in some circles. Implications I was doing it to again bash Mike, suggestions that the whole conversation was pointless or something...so what of those who seem to insist it was and could only be Brian tipping off Derek Taylor? Perhaps you could address some of them too.

Turns out that consideration wasn't so far out after all, was it?

I'm not one of those saying it could only be Brian but the reveal was to Taylor and it seems almost certain to me that the info came from Brian which Taylor makes clear in a whole series of articles (including the announcement) about that April/May.  

I was joking about Carl. Maybe Ian can turn something, but I'm doubting it right now because I firmly believe there is nothing like that to turn. Brian told Taylor knowing he would report it. As far as I can tell almost all of Taylor's conversations and interviews came from Brian and that's what makes him a good source for stuff Brian was thinking and doing. Altham was mis-informed (as was Carl apparently) that SMiLE was ever finished by Brian (according to Brian, which even Carl says was making those decisions). It's all straightforward as far as I can see from everything presented so far.

I was not joking. On the basis of what you now say, and in spite of Carl's own words after Smiley Smile had been released, you're latest point is that Carl speaking to the LA Times published October 67 was "misinformed"?

"We didn't scrap them," Carl said. "We just haven't used them yet. We did it all from scratch when we started again. We actually had finished the album but then a lot of things didn't turn out the way Brian liked. We all didn't agree on different types of things. We decided to do something new."

[guitarfool2002]

Cam, by October 1967 if Carl was unaware of what had been going on as of April or whenever the first Altham article came out, I can be reasonably certain he knew enough to speak with firsthand knowledge about what happened after four months or so of working on the music directly with his brother Brian and working to build Brother Records in general.

Seriously Cam, where is your logic coming from that compels you to bend and twist even the most definitive statement from a primary source like Carl into something that agrees with your theories?

[The Cincinnati Kid]

If Smile was really finished, wouldn't it have been released in the next few years?  I'm not really seeing what Carl's quote adds to the discussion here.

[guitarfool2002]

If Smile was really finished, wouldn't it have been released in the next few years?  I'm not really seeing what Carl's quote adds to the discussion here.

There were discussions of what to do with the tracks other than Heroes and Vegetables which are confirmed by a late July 67 memo from Capitol's Karl Engemann, where the memo mentioned discussions between "Polley, Schwartz..." and Brian Wilson about how to handle distributing the Smile booklet in light of Smiley Smile's release and the tracks mentioned in that booklet not being included on Smiley. The decision was to hold back the booklet until the "10" tracks not on Smiley Smile but somehow referenced in the booklet would be released in the future.

Those are from Capitol memos that suggest there were still plans in existence to do something with the unused Smile tracks. Add that to Carl's comment (and others) and there was still talk of doing something with those remaining Smile tracks.

[The Shift]

"We didn't scrap them," Carl said. "We just haven't used them yet. We did it all from scratch when we started again. We actually had finished the album but then a lot of things didn't turn out the way Brian liked. We all didn't agree on different types of things. We decided to do something new."

Surely that "Smile is finished" statement effectively discredits some of what Carl had to say that day? Or are we now holding on to the hope that a tape has been/will be found in time for a 50th anniversary "reveal"?

[SMiLE Brian]

This thread went from very interesting to the world's most inane pissing match. And now Smile Brian is participating. Thread over 

Thanks for the mature comments to me ....

[Andrew G. Doe]

The 7/67 memo, to me, indicates that Capitol were trying to salvage something, anything, from a series of cripplingly expensive sessions. That Brian apparently agreed to their plan is beside the point: it didn't happen.

As for Carl saying the album was finished... his 1972 statement about Smile being finally released utterly contradicts that. He said it would be pieced together and where necessary overdubbed: does that sound like a finished item to anyone here ?

[The Cincinnati Kid]

The 7/67 memo, to me, indicates that Capitol were trying to salvage something, anything, from a series of cripplingly expensive sessions. That Brian apparently agreed to their plan is beside the point: it didn't happen.

As for Carl saying the album was finished... his 1972 statement about Smile being finally released utterly contradicts that. He said it would be pieced together and where necessary overdubbed: does that sound like a finished item to anyone here ?

This is what I'm thinking as well.  His 1967 statements are just PR damage control, imo.  The only other possibility is that the "rest" of the album actually was lost/destroyed sometime between 1967 and when Smile tracks started showing up on albums. 

[CenturyDeprived]

I feel there's an agenda at work here.

If there's any agenda at work here, I can think of no greater evidence than the blatant question-dodging that happened earlier in this thread.  

CD - are you adding to the fact base of information of what happened in the Spring of 1967, in a dispassionate way?

You accused me of question-dodging.  And, in a context of this new PC concept called "micro-aggression" - which I happily use in quotations.  Maybe you can tell us what that term that means.  

Dispassionately, is what I am looking at.  First-hand, from a principal, like Carl's interview, telling the world that the Smile tapes were safe and secure.  And not from some propaganda source that may be becoming debunked.  

Please don't ask me to opine on other ancillary players, when I was not there as a witness.  

It’s quite simple: there’s a not negligible element at play when “adding to the fact base of information of what happened in the Spring of 1967” as you put it. A white elephant in the room that some people, such as yourself, try to avoid getting into is whether or not it’s logical that Brian’s state of mind would likely have been impacted, even in the slightest, by his bandmates' actions/vibes. IMO it’s enormously offbase to just try to blot that area out with White-Out simply because we aren’t “privy” to what happened. It’s true –we aren’t privy, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t make assumptions based on logic. It’s completely illogical to say that a person in a band, under enormous pressure, wouldn’t be impacted AT ALL by their mates’ opinions, frustrations, and questions. Our lack of full scope of their interpersonal relationships at the time does not negate the potential impact these actions could have made, does it?

You are clearly a big fan of the band, know the BB story and personalities very well (likely as well as most anyone could who’s not in the inner circle), and clearly everyone has some sort of opinion in their head, one way or another, about whether or not what I’ve just mentioned is remotely fathomable.  It either is possible, or it is not possible. Neither I, nor anyone on this board I’m sure, honestly believes that you don’t have an opinion either way about it. It’s yay or nay, or somewhere in between. It’s not “no answer”. Neither of us have the conclusive answer to what we are discussing – you can only pick what you honestly think is the most logical answer of the two choices: you think it likely had an effect (however insignificant)... or  you are claiming it’s logical to think that Brian’s mates had NO effect whatsoever on his state of mind. One of those two scenarios played out, and you know it.  

If you are somehow not dodging a question, please direct me to what you believe an example of dodging a question WOULD be. Or will you dodge this last question too?

It’s kind of like you saying that we only know that Murry or Landy had any kind of negative effect on Brian’s state of mind because of physical damage that happened from those guys, but that potential emotional wounds inflicted by other people are completely unimportant because we don’t have any physical proof of them. Pics or it didn’t happen, right? You do realize that type of mindset is exactly how emotional abusers continue to get away with abuse. No physical injuries means no emotional trauma or mistreatment could POSSIBLY have happened at any time, ever... right?

You surely have an opinion (perhaps somewhat mixed, not a black-and-white opinion, but an opinion nonetheless) of Murry and/or Landy, right? Every knowledgeable, well-read BB fan (such as yourself) does, to some degree. But you weren't there as a witness. So how exactly does that work? Care to explain?

PS - regarding my terminology of "microagressions" - while I have heard the term used by people in reference to subtle, aggressive comments in general, I may have misused the word since the dictionary seems to imply it is most appropriately used regarding racial stereotypes. So I'd replace that terminology with "passive aggression" or other behaviors that would have either directly or indirectly displayed dissatisfaction, lack of support, etc.  Stuff that a sensitive person could blow out of proportion. Because, you know, Brian's a sensitive guy who's been known to do that sometimes.

[Cam Mott]

Why not let Carl's words stand as they were published and let those reading it do so without the clarifications and other items added? I had a feeling this would happen...clarifying what he meant by the "scrap" line, etc. That is parsing. Let those reading read his words first before trying to tell anyone what Carl meant 49 years later.

Cam Mott served up a list of Brian quotes instead of commenting a single word of his own on what Carl said. No comments, Cam? Could it be because it looks like Carl in 1967 may have effectively shredded (or should I say scrapped?) some of the Smile theories Cam has been posting on this and other boards for over a decade? It's much harder to disprove Carl because he has a reputation among the fan base and both Carl and his word is held in high regard, so instead it's "well Carl said this, but Brian said this and here are a dozen quotes to back me up...". Says a lot about the whole ball of wax. How about addressing what Carl said?

Now Carl's statements were "more or less prepared"...Wait, how could that possibly be known enough what went into that interview in 1967 to even comment on it? It cannot, and we don't know what was prepared and what was Carl talking off the cuff, which is why I question even bringing it up unless it's to cast doubt on what he said or why he said it.  It means nothing to the point of applying what he did say to the discussions at hand and weighing them into the discourse.

We were asking for firsthand evidence from the Beach Boys, there it is. Carl Wilson, Fall 1967. Got what we asked for. If it doesn't support but instead serves to refute some popular theories and notions about Smile and Smiley Smile and the rest of it, it might be a case of "be careful what you wish for" since this (and possibly others we have not seen yet) information is exactly what some were asking for as the primary evidence possible to weigh these issues: Firsthand quotes from the Beach Boys themselves.

We now have it. Let's weigh it up based on what Carl said, not what we think he said or assume he said or speculate as to why he said it...take the words as they appear first.

Didn't you, in the very first reply to jiggityjars posting, parse the words and tell us what they meant?

My comment is the question was were the tapes destroyed and Carl answered they were not saying: "scrapped". Taylor also said they were not destroyed, so they agreed.

Carl says SMiLE was finished and Altham agreed, Brian says it was never finished with which Taylor agreed.  Carl says Brian was making the calls so there is what Brian said. I don't know who was trying to stop discussion of this thread, you were asking for more witness instead.....you're welcome.

On to what did Carl mean by "start from scratch" and how did Carl calculate "the quickest".  Hopefully Ian will have something that also sheds more light.

Have you considered Carl as the theoretical scrapped announcement conspirator?  (mind blown)

Cam, go back and look at the reactions here to when I first mentioned the possibility that Brian was *not* the source. Of course I've considered it. That's why I said what I said. Suggesting it brought out reactions that made it seem like even suggesting or questioning such a thing was akin to blasphemy in some circles. Implications I was doing it to again bash Mike, suggestions that the whole conversation was pointless or something...so what of those who seem to insist it was and could only be Brian tipping off Derek Taylor? Perhaps you could address some of them too.

Turns out that consideration wasn't so far out after all, was it?

I'm not one of those saying it could only be Brian but the reveal was to Taylor and it seems almost certain to me that the info came from Brian which Taylor makes clear in a whole series of articles (including the announcement) about that April/May.  

I was joking about Carl. Maybe Ian can turn something, but I'm doubting it right now because I firmly believe there is nothing like that to turn. Brian told Taylor knowing he would report it. As far as I can tell almost all of Taylor's conversations and interviews came from Brian and that's what makes him a good source for stuff Brian was thinking and doing. Altham was mis-informed (as was Carl apparently) that SMiLE was ever finished by Brian (according to Brian, which even Carl says was making those decisions). It's all straightforward as far as I can see from everything presented so far.

I was not joking. On the basis of what you now say, and in spite of Carl's own words after Smiley Smile had been released, you're latest point is that Carl speaking to the LA Times published October 67 was "misinformed"?

"We didn't scrap them," Carl said. "We just haven't used them yet. We did it all from scratch when we started again. We actually had finished the album but then a lot of things didn't turn out the way Brian liked. We all didn't agree on different types of things. We decided to do something new."

According to Brian, as I said.

[Cam Mott]

Cam, by October 1967 if Carl was unaware of what had been going on as of April or whenever the first Altham article came out, I can be reasonably certain he knew enough to speak with firsthand knowledge about what happened after four months or so of working on the music directly with his brother Brian and working to build Brother Records in general.

Seriously Cam, where is your logic coming from that compels you to bend and twist even the most definitive statement from a primary source like Carl into something that agrees with your theories?

You are arguing and logic-ing with Brian, are you saying your "logic" trumps Brian too?

[Cam Mott]

If Smile was really finished, wouldn't it have been released in the next few years?  I'm not really seeing what Carl's quote adds to the discussion here.

You would think wouldn't you. Why not just release that supposedly finished album (that Brian says he never finished) instead of coming up with a plan to spend more money making Smiley and still release the rest of the remnants as per Brian and Engemann's supposed plan.  Talk about logic.

[felipe]

How can anyone believe SMiLE was finished when Brian himself said in Beautiful Dreamer he didn't release it because he would need a whole year to do it and nobody would have given him that time

[Jim V.]

If Smile was really finished, wouldn't it have been released in the next few years?  I'm not really seeing what Carl's quote adds to the discussion here.

You would think wouldn't you. Why not just release that supposedly finished album (that Brian says he never finished) instead of coming up with a plan to spend more money making Smiley and still release the rest of the remnants as per Brian and Engemann's supposed plan.  Talk about logic.

I think this whole argument is a bit senseless, but I do wanna address this. One theoretical reason why Brian would spend more money making Smiley instead of releasing the prior finished album would possibly be because he's an artist and he didn't want the prior album released as maybe he wasn't happy with it.

But it's all for naught anyways cuz there wasn't any kind of finished SMiLE album at the time. So that's that.

[guitarfool2002]

Now the suggestion of discrediting Carl appears in the discussion. In both this and the other Smile discussions, so far we have seen attempts or suggestions to discredit the following people: Carl, Brian, Al, Michael Vosse, David Anderle, Jules Siegel. Any others to add? Van Dyke perhaps? Anyone else?

First question: Let's say we do for whatever reasons. Just discredit them and their words regarding what they've said or written about Smile since 1967.

Someone tell me who that leaves as a solid and reliable source when it comes to telling the history of Smile moving forward?


That bothers me in general, for the simple fact that we're basing this on how some are interpreting, parsing, or trying to explain their words. If everyone involved with this band were 100% free and clear of any errors, mistakes, bad memories, or outright lies in the past 50+ years, that would be different. They're not. None of them.

Related to that: We're trying to bend and shape what Carl said, suggesting he was lying to do PR, suggesting whatever else to discredit his comment about finishing the album. Most of the weight of that falls on the fact that there is no master tape, no acetate, no recorded example that exists of either a 10 or 12 track album sequenced and banded together. That's been known and obvious to anyone.

Is it possible to suggest they had plans for the album, had first those 12 tracks set and waiting for it all to be put together, and further the 10 tracks not on Smiley as referenced by the Capitol memo in late July 67? It was the same with Wild Honey not long after Carl's October 67 interview. The plans on the table for that album when the original liner notes were written included a collection of live recordings to go with the studio tracks. Some of the titles were different in name as well.

Guess what...whatever plan that was soon changed into what we know as Wild Honey.

Is there a master tape or an acetate of the sequence for the album as the liner notes originally said? No.

Does that mean the plans for the album which would include all of the tracks listed plus the live material existed as Wild Honey at that particular time, in terms of the tracks are listed and were available? Yes. At that point, Wild Honey was what the tracklist said. Plans changed.

Or, perhaps Carl was just lying...lets run that scenario. He's lying about the finished album. Why? The Beach Boys the month Carl did that interview had just released their first album on Brother Records, following up the Heroes and Gettin Hungry singles.

The band won, they beat Capitol. They won the money they asked for, they got their record label set up and got Capitol to distribute the label's releases. They asked for and got revised contracts from Capitol. They were David battling Goliath and David won.

They needed little if any leverage as of September 1967 as plans were coming to fruition. When they needed leverage was the Spring of 67 after the lawsuit was filed and went public.

Capitol in late July was on board with the plans for the "ten tracks" as outlined in the memo.

If Carl were lying, why did he? He and his bandmates had just run the table on Capitol and came out on top.

[Cam Mott]

I'm wonder how Carl was measuring "quickest"?  Did he mean man hours or studio hours or days in studio or span from first session to last session? Is he just talking about the Boys involvement or the Boys and the hired musicians contributions?

If you count studio days on AGD's sessionography site, Smiley is far from the quickest album. Of the 13 albums up to Smiley, only SMiLE and PS (just barely if you count the 1965 session) had more studio days than SS and that's if you don't count the April/May sessions for Smiley (just for arguments sake).