Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[filledeplage]

Going back a page, I had suggested that guitarfool's proposition based on Priore and Carlin's accounts that Mike was the source of the Taylor "scrapped" press release, IMPLIED that Mike was sabotaging or trying to sabotage the project.   If not, what was his motivation if we agree that in fact Brian was still working on Smile, as evidenced by the Vegetables and ILTSDD sessions?  Or was he just the messenger relaying information from another source?

There's no doubt Van Dyke's leaving made the recording process more difficult for Brian - whereas before if on a whim Brian wrote and wanted to record a new section for a song, Van Dyke would be there and able to write lyrics to it, now he had to work with what Van Dyke had left and revisions became more difficult.  When he recorded "sweeping strings" in February he talks with Van, who is present, about the tempo needing to be slowed for the vocals - probably expecting Van was going to write lyrics to go there.  With Van gone, what does he do with that piece?

It seems after the lyric questioning in December, very little new lyrical work occurs, even though Van Dyke returns and attempts to help Brian finish Heroes and Villains.  The pressure for a single was clearly intense and Brian's focus starting in January shifts to getting a single and the other tracks are abandoned - presumably temporarily but in fact for good.  With the possible exception of that curious outlier, ILTSDD.

I personal would like to see any attribution for that Mike reveal claim before getting obscured by the speculation.

Yet he is retooling the title and lyrics for Vegetables for the single and Smiley by April and that title nor ILTSDD are ever on the SMiLE track list nor are the titles of several other tracks to follow for Smiley through July.

Cam - I think you (you are not alone)  are putting way too much stock in a PR guy. 

From Rusten/Stebbins..."Jann Wenner of the new San Francisco-based music paper Rolling Stone declared that Brian's 'promotion men started to tell him and his audience that he  was a 'genius' on par with Lennon and McCartney.  That's cool cause all just folks, but no one is John Lennon except John Lennon and no one is Paul McCartney except Paul McCartney.'" p. 97.

"Men" is plural - meaning those who went to Wenner.  Besides Taylor, who else is involved in this? 

Is the fine hand of Uncle Murry in this equation or is this "scrapped" press release a "frolic of his own?" (Taylor)

This is layers of he-said / she-said. 

None of that post was dependent on Taylor but I get what you mean. On the other hand Taylor was there, seems to be connected in ways other journalists weren't, and his reporting is not always flattering. Imo, he is maybe getting stereotyped and seems to be a truthful source as much as any scenester is with their understanding of things.

Cam - I am laughing because this is like trying to solve a murder mystery (which I would not read on a bet) - and blaming Mike is just "too easy."

And, that Spring tour (at least the beginning) was a complete horror show.  Talk about extremes.  Brian on TV on one day, and Carl is arrested the next.  Polar opposites.

Going to Europe in '67 to find that it is a '65 cover and not one of their own originals, that is being promoted?   Were they consulted as to the focus of the tour?  Why would they have hired those 4 extra musicians to bring on tour if not to further promote Pet Sounds and GV? What would be the point?  Wouldn't Mike, Dennis, Bruce, Carl and Al have vetted these musicians to tour?  Advancing the new work?   And psyched to have a new blockbuster in the pipeline?

Either one hand didn't know what the other was doing, or it was a plan about which the band was not informed.  They were "distracted" and that situation presented a perfect opportunity for sabotage of the release.  By "someone or multiple someones."  They were the "last to know," like a scorned lover.  And, musicians and not "music business sharks" - still of tender age.

In the alternative, it makes no sense with the timeline of sessions after the announcement that it was Brian.   Why would he have sessions scheduled after pulling the plug?

There are layers of b.s. that have to be unearthed.  Taylor had other things on his plate at that time.  Monterey.  

Who was not a member of BRI?  Three guesses and the first two - don't count.

Someone did "make the call" or "caused the call to be made"  and made an announcement, that appears to have come from the band.  But, did it?  

More questions than answers...

Where is Columbo when we need him?  

[Andrew G. Doe]

I personal would like to see any attribution for that Mike reveal claim before getting obscured by the speculation.

How about negative evidence ? I asked him about it specifically on Thursday, and he said he never told Tayor any such thing.

I feel there's a lot here being obscured by speculation, misdirection, red herrings and smoke & mirrors, all to a soundtrack of goalposts being moved. 

[Cam Mott]

I personal would like to see any attribution for that Mike reveal claim before getting obscured by the speculation.

How about negative evidence ? I asked him about it specifically on Thursday, and he said he never told Tayor any such thing.

Quite right, that is the only definitive info so far and should close the case on Mike I'm sure.........................................(tumbleweed).............................................................
I was thinking of the parallel claims, but wasn't clear, that it couldn't haven't been other Boys besides Mike who would pull the rug out from under Brian in this scenario.  Hopefully you will hear from Dom with an equally definitive attribution.........................................(another tumbleweed).............................................................
(stuff guys say just before eating their words)

[Bicyclerider]

Oh lord, more of this Vega-tables/Vegetables nonsense.  First of all, how do you pronounce Vega-tables?  Maybe a lot like . . . Vegetables? 

By the way, the Heroes single was NEVER intended to be on Smile, all along Brian knew it was for Smiley - because all the studio documentation slates et all make it clear he was recording "Heroes and Villains."  The track list for Smile makes it perfectly clear THAT Heroes was "Heroes and Villians."

[Cam Mott]

Going back a page, I had suggested that guitarfool's proposition based on Priore and Carlin's accounts that Mike was the source of the Taylor "scrapped" press release, IMPLIED that Mike was sabotaging or trying to sabotage the project.   If not, what was his motivation if we agree that in fact Brian was still working on Smile, as evidenced by the Vegetables and ILTSDD sessions?  Or was he just the messenger relaying information from another source?

There's no doubt Van Dyke's leaving made the recording process more difficult for Brian - whereas before if on a whim Brian wrote and wanted to record a new section for a song, Van Dyke would be there and able to write lyrics to it, now he had to work with what Van Dyke had left and revisions became more difficult.  When he recorded "sweeping strings" in February he talks with Van, who is present, about the tempo needing to be slowed for the vocals - probably expecting Van was going to write lyrics to go there.  With Van gone, what does he do with that piece?

It seems after the lyric questioning in December, very little new lyrical work occurs, even though Van Dyke returns and attempts to help Brian finish Heroes and Villains.  The pressure for a single was clearly intense and Brian's focus starting in January shifts to getting a single and the other tracks are abandoned - presumably temporarily but in fact for good.  With the possible exception of that curious outlier, ILTSDD.

I personal would like to see any attribution for that Mike reveal claim before getting obscured by the speculation.

Yet he is retooling the title and lyrics for Vegetables for the single and Smiley by April and that title nor ILTSDD are ever on the SMiLE track list nor are the titles of several other tracks to follow for Smiley through July.

Cam - I think you (you are not alone)  are putting way too much stock in a PR guy. 

From Rusten/Stebbins..."Jann Wenner of the new San Francisco-based music paper Rolling Stone declared that Brian's 'promotion men started to tell him and his audience that he  was a 'genius' on par with Lennon and McCartney.  That's cool cause all just folks, but no one is John Lennon except John Lennon and no one is Paul McCartney except Paul McCartney.'" p. 97.

"Men" is plural - meaning those who went to Wenner.  Besides Taylor, who else is involved in this? 

Is the fine hand of Uncle Murry in this equation or is this "scrapped" press release a "frolic of his own?" (Taylor)

This is layers of he-said / she-said. 

None of that post was dependent on Taylor but I get what you mean. On the other hand Taylor was there, seems to be connected in ways other journalists weren't, and his reporting is not always flattering. Imo, he is maybe getting stereotyped and seems to be a truthful source as much as any scenester is with their understanding of things.

Cam - I am laughing because this is like trying to solve a murder mystery (which I would not read on a bet) - and blaming Mike is just "too easy."

And, that Spring tour (at least the beginning) was a complete horror show.  Talk about extremes.  Brian on TV on one day, and Carl is arrested the next.  Polar opposites.

Going to Europe in '67 to find that it is a '65 cover and not one of their own originals, that is being promoted?   Were they consulted as to the focus of the tour?  Why would they have hired those 4 extra musicians to bring on tour if not to further promote Pet Sounds and GV? What would be the point?  Wouldn't Mike, Dennis, Bruce, Carl and Al have vetted these musicians to tour?  Advancing the new work?   And psyched to have a new blockbuster in the pipeline?

Either one hand didn't know what the other was doing, or it was a plan about which the band was not informed.  They were "distracted" and that situation presented a perfect opportunity for sabotage of the release.  By "someone or multiple someones."  They were the "last to know," like a scorned lover.  And, musicians and not "music business sharks" - still of tender age.

In the alternative, it makes no sense with the timeline of sessions after the announcement that it was Brian.   Why would he have sessions scheduled after pulling the plug?

There are layers of b.s. that have to be unearthed.  Taylor had other things on his plate at that time.  Monterey.  

Who was not a member of BRI?  Three guesses and the first two - don't count.

Someone did "make the call" or "caused the call to be made"  and made an announcement, that appears to have come from the band.  But, did it?  

More questions than answers...

Where is Columbo when we need him?  

Later I think Taylor admitted that the old release by EMI they were all complaining had actually gone on to chart pretty high in England, which I think according to AGD was at #4.

Imo, he continued to book sessions April through July because he was recording sessions for a post-SMiLE album project and that album is Smiley Smile.  

Imo, someone did make the call and that would be the Producer which was Brian who was in LA as was Taylor.  

[Bicyclerider]

"Imo, he continued to book sessions April through July because he was recording sessions for a post-SMiLE album project and that album is Smiley Smile. "

Glad to see you made that IMO since the evidence to support this is very weak.

[filledeplage]

I personal would like to see any attribution for that Mike reveal claim before getting obscured by the speculation.

How about negative evidence ? I asked him about it specifically on Thursday, and he said he never told Tayor any such thing.

Quite right, that is the only definitive info so far and should close the case on Mike I'm sure.........................................(tumbleweed).............................................................
I was thinking of the parallel claims, but wasn't clear, that it couldn't haven't been other Boys besides Mike who would pull the rug out from under Brian in this scenario.  Hopefully you will hear from Dom with an equally definitive attribution.........................................(another tumbleweed).............................................................
(stuff guys say just before eating their words)

Cam - the "absence of a fact" (negative evidence) can be used to prove a fact, (Andrew is correct on this one.)

So, it might be the process of elimination.

Who had authority?  Who had apparent authority? Who was motivated?  (maybe someone would would not have profited from Smile - in a monetary sense)

Who would want retaliation for anything or nothing?  

Would any and all of these authors bought into this myth?

So this is one that could a dead-end.  The answer is somewhere.  But, it may un-published.        

[filledeplage]

Going back a page, I had suggested that guitarfool's proposition based on Priore and Carlin's accounts that Mike was the source of the Taylor "scrapped" press release, IMPLIED that Mike was sabotaging or trying to sabotage the project.   If not, what was his motivation if we agree that in fact Brian was still working on Smile, as evidenced by the Vegetables and ILTSDD sessions?  Or was he just the messenger relaying information from another source?

There's no doubt Van Dyke's leaving made the recording process more difficult for Brian - whereas before if on a whim Brian wrote and wanted to record a new section for a song, Van Dyke would be there and able to write lyrics to it, now he had to work with what Van Dyke had left and revisions became more difficult.  When he recorded "sweeping strings" in February he talks with Van, who is present, about the tempo needing to be slowed for the vocals - probably expecting Van was going to write lyrics to go there.  With Van gone, what does he do with that piece?

It seems after the lyric questioning in December, very little new lyrical work occurs, even though Van Dyke returns and attempts to help Brian finish Heroes and Villains.  The pressure for a single was clearly intense and Brian's focus starting in January shifts to getting a single and the other tracks are abandoned - presumably temporarily but in fact for good.  With the possible exception of that curious outlier, ILTSDD.

I personal would like to see any attribution for that Mike reveal claim before getting obscured by the speculation.

Yet he is retooling the title and lyrics for Vegetables for the single and Smiley by April and that title nor ILTSDD are ever on the SMiLE track list nor are the titles of several other tracks to follow for Smiley through July.

Cam - I think you (you are not alone)  are putting way too much stock in a PR guy.  

From Rusten/Stebbins..."Jann Wenner of the new San Francisco-based music paper Rolling Stone declared that Brian's 'promotion men started to tell him and his audience that he  was a 'genius' on par with Lennon and McCartney.  That's cool cause all just folks, but no one is John Lennon except John Lennon and no one is Paul McCartney except Paul McCartney.'" p. 97.

"Men" is plural - meaning those who went to Wenner.  Besides Taylor, who else is involved in this?  

Is the fine hand of Uncle Murry in this equation or is this "scrapped" press release a "frolic of his own?" (Taylor)

This is layers of he-said / she-said.  

None of that post was dependent on Taylor but I get what you mean. On the other hand Taylor was there, seems to be connected in ways other journalists weren't, and his reporting is not always flattering. Imo, he is maybe getting stereotyped and seems to be a truthful source as much as any scenester is with their understanding of things.

Cam - I am laughing because this is like trying to solve a murder mystery (which I would not read on a bet) - and blaming Mike is just "too easy."

And, that Spring tour (at least the beginning) was a complete horror show.  Talk about extremes.  Brian on TV on one day, and Carl is arrested the next.  Polar opposites.

Going to Europe in '67 to find that it is a '65 cover and not one of their own originals, that is being promoted?   Were they consulted as to the focus of the tour?  Why would they have hired those 4 extra musicians to bring on tour if not to further promote Pet Sounds and GV? What would be the point?  Wouldn't Mike, Dennis, Bruce, Carl and Al have vetted these musicians to tour?  Advancing the new work?   And psyched to have a new blockbuster in the pipeline?

Either one hand didn't know what the other was doing, or it was a plan about which the band was not informed.  They were "distracted" and that situation presented a perfect opportunity for sabotage of the release.  By "someone or multiple someones."  They were the "last to know," like a scorned lover.  And, musicians and not "music business sharks" - still of tender age.

In the alternative, it makes no sense with the timeline of sessions after the announcement that it was Brian.   Why would he have sessions scheduled after pulling the plug?

There are layers of b.s. that have to be unearthed.  Taylor had other things on his plate at that time.  Monterey.  

Who was not a member of BRI?  Three guesses and the first two - don't count.

Someone did "make the call" or "caused the call to be made"  and made an announcement, that appears to have come from the band.  But, did it?  

More questions than answers...

Where is Columbo when we need him?  

Later I think Taylor admitted that the old release by EMI they were all complaining had actually gone on to chart pretty high in England, which I think according to AGD was at #4.

Imo, he continued to book sessions April through July because he was recording sessions for a post-SMiLE album project and that album is Smiley Smile.  

Imo, someone did make the call and that would be the Producer which was Brian who was in LA as was Taylor.  

Cam - it does not matter what it charted. This is no defense.  They did not bring extra musicians to Europe to play retro stuff. "... Expressing the group's feelings, Bruce exclaimed, "It's really ridiculous.  The record is in no way representative of the kind of things we are doing now...this is not the music that won us the NME award as the World's Top Vocal Group."  Rusten/Stebbins p. 90.  

Their actions are completely inconsistent with the theories that any band member is responsible for this announcement.

If Taylor admitted that the EMI old release that they complained about - he was mixed up in it - he was part of the problem.  Would Brian have wanted them to be on a "Then I Kissed Her" tour?

For whom did Taylor work?  

Was he a producer or publicist?  

Further..."Disc and Music Echo's Jonathan King piled on, "Wax wizard Brian Wilson may still be, but it has to be said in this country, the Beach Boys are finished. This tour and this record, Then I Kissed Her, were the decline. Very sad." It was a demoralizing experience for the group who had come to England expecting to be treated as triumphant heroes.  While the group was in Europe, momemtou events were unfolding in America.  On May 6, publicist (not producer) Derek Taylor broke the news in Disc and Music Echo that Smile had been SCRAPPED (yes they used caps.)  Not destroyed, but scrapped." p. 91 Rusten/Stebbins.

So I am thinking that this whole theory of "what happened to the band in the States" is nonsense.  This appears to have happened abroad.  

(I need remind myself to thank my family and friends for many of these books used as resources.  Mostly gifts.)

[Andrew G. Doe]

Cam - the "absence of a fact" (negative evidence) can be used to prove a fact, (Andrew is correct on this one.)

So, it might be the process of elimination.

Who had authority?  Who had apparent authority? Who was motivated?  (maybe someone would would not have profited from Smile - in a monetary sense)

Who would want retaliation for anything or nothing?  

Would any and all of these authors bought into this myth?

So this is one that could a dead-end.  The answer is somewhere.  But, it may un-published.        

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian.

Occam's razor.

[guitarfool2002]

Cam - the "absence of a fact" (negative evidence) can be used to prove a fact, (Andrew is correct on this one.)

So, it might be the process of elimination.

Who had authority?  Who had apparent authority? Who was motivated?  (maybe someone would would not have profited from Smile - in a monetary sense)

Who would want retaliation for anything or nothing?  

Would any and all of these authors bought into this myth?

So this is one that could a dead-end.  The answer is somewhere.  But, it may un-published.        

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian.

Occam's razor.

Occam's razor may not cut through this one, or else it needs a good sharpening. 

Consider the articles/interviews from this time and what was both said by band members and reported by the writers. Not trying to suggest anything definitive, but weigh the evidence and the timeline as published (and spoken).

Taylor dropped that bombshell in a column reporting on the Beach Boys flying to the UK for the tour, and specifically the NME Poll Winners show which was the highlight. Taylor's piece came out before the Poll Winners show, yet includes tidbits about the band's arrival including how their plane had the banner listing "Igor.." and all of that. Taylor described "Igor" and the musicians and the plane before he dropped the Smile bombshell in the piece, he was reporting on the tour the band would be playing.

The other Altham article in NME which I referenced in posts above came *after* Taylor's piece had dropped. The text suggests it was after the Boys had received their NME award at the Poll event, but before they left the UK region to play the European leg of the tour. Altham's piece hit the stands in the May 27 issue, but the band member interviews had to be done sometime between May 8-10 or thereabouts if we match up the tour schedule to the article's contents.

In that article, Bruce is speaking about Smile as if it will come out, and is most enthusiastic about the music. Altham reports Carl as saying Brian was back home working on very important tracks for the album. Mike echos what Dennis said the previous week (while waiting for Carl to arrive in Ireland) about not being rushed and wanting to give fans a good product. They're all upset that an old song (and not even an original) was released as a stop-gap UK single by EMI to coincide with their tour.

If we reverse the scenario, how or why would it come to pass that Derek Taylor both reports info specific to the UK tour arrival which had to come from someone in the UK, then declares the Smile album had been scrapped...if such a decision were made, surely Taylor would have let the band members know of this as well. Instead, Bruce is talking about the upcoming Smile album and Carl is saying Brian is home working on important tracks, and they're all saying we can't be rushed...it's as if the band members didn't get the word that the album had been scrapped either.

That disconnect is as blatant and obvious as the scenario painted above where Brian was the tip-off to Taylor. Did Taylor when he was reporting on the band's arrival not bother to tell them the album was scrapped too? Bruce especially is talking as if the album is still coming out. Carl too...

These comments to Altham were after Taylor's piece: The band speaks as if they didn't get the word either.

[filledeplage]

Cam - the "absence of a fact" (negative evidence) can be used to prove a fact, (Andrew is correct on this one.)

So, it might be the process of elimination.

Who had authority?  Who had apparent authority? Who was motivated?  (maybe someone would would not have profited from Smile - in a monetary sense)

Who would want retaliation for anything or nothing?  

Would any and all of these authors bought into this myth?

So this is one that could a dead-end.  The answer is somewhere.  But, it may un-published.        

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian.

Occam's razor.

Andrew - Notwithstanding, that Brian 70-ish interview where Brian says he "chucked it" (Smile) - that leaves the question of not what "was said" but, how "they behaved" - and instead of relying on "words," rely on "conduct" of the parties.  

So, the old "actions speak louder than words" might be what has to be used to deal with any logic. Conduct is a clue here.  Not good or bad conduct but the extra musicians, not needed for the old garage band tunes.  ( I think of the BB's as a happy accident anyway. No logic necessary. Most are alive, and I am still alive, so it is all good.)  

They seem to behaving in a way that is in the PS and GV mode, while anticipating Smile.  Not the opposite.  

First, my sense is more that someone with "apparent authority" (a non-band member but one who may have "substituted his judgment" for the band or Brian) might have been involved in causing this press release announcement.  The band or BRI would have had "actual authority."  

Second, it was "frolic on his own" by Taylor whom others may have believed was "vested with authority" to make a decision like that. (Apparent authority)  

Third, is it the record company who could have pulled the plug?  

My question is why is this news released, at that time when they were in Europe?  And while having to sing Spector/Barry/Greenwich and not Brian Wilson. It could have been a Pet Sounds tour with those extra musicians in tow.  It is confounding.  
 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Third, is it the record company who could have pulled the plug?  

No - even before the release of Smiley Smile, they were discussing with Brian the possibility of the next release being a 10-track Smile. There's memo dated 7/25/67, from Karl Engemann, Capitol's A&R director concerning the inclusion of the booklet, not with Smiley Smile but the next album, which would include the 10 tracks illustrated, but not included Brother 9001.

 However, there's a distinct possibility that Brian was telling them what they wanted to hear...

[filledeplage]

Third, is it the record company who could have pulled the plug?  

No - even before the release of Smiley Smile, they were discussing with Brian the possibility of the next release being a 10-track Smile. There's memo dated 7/25/67, from Karl Engemann, Capitol's A&R director concerning the inclusion of the booklet, not with Smiley Smile but the next album, which would include the 10 tracks illustrated, but not included Brother 9001.

 However, there's a distinct possibility that Brian was telling them what they wanted to hear...

OK - that would come off the list.

And, maybe Brian was doing what many of us do...my mother would refer to it as "yes-sing" someone to death.   

[Alan Smith]

These comments to Altham were after Taylor's piece: The band speaks as if they didn't get the word either.

So are you now suggesting no one in the band told Taylor?

[Bicyclerider]

These comments to Altham were after Taylor's piece: The band speaks as if they didn't get the word either.

So are you now suggesting no one in the band told Taylor?

That seems the most likely scenario, and we get back to Andrew's assertion that the band member who told Taylor was Brian.  It is a perfectly possible scenario that while Taylor was using touring Beach Boys as information about the tour for his article, that as a separate event Brian (or someone associated with the band) told him Smile was scrapped, and that made the article as well.  Nothing unusual about having multiple sources for a single article.

Who was the tour manager in Europe with the Boys?  That may be the source of Taylor's tour information, not the Boys at all.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Dick Duryea was road manager in 1968, so it's possible he was a year earlier.

[guitarfool2002]

These comments to Altham were after Taylor's piece: The band speaks as if they didn't get the word either.

So are you now suggesting no one in the band told Taylor?

That seems the most likely scenario, and we get back to Andrew's assertion that the band member who told Taylor was Brian.  It is a perfectly possible scenario that while Taylor was using touring Beach Boys as information about the tour for his article, that as a separate event Brian (or someone associated with the band) told him Smile was scrapped, and that made the article as well.  Nothing unusual about having multiple sources for a single article.

Who was the tour manager in Europe with the Boys?  That may be the source of Taylor's tour information, not the Boys at all.

I laid out the timeline with dates and references. Whatever suggestions someone wants to add to it are their own.

My reply was long, yes, so to summarize the process Andrew used to suggest Brian was "Beach Boy X" who told Taylor could as easily flip onto the band on tour in the UK, and the question asked why wouldn't Derek Taylor have confirmed with one of the touring Beach Boys before publishing? Especially since he was doing press for their tour as much of a priority in May 1967 over anything Brian was doing that first week in May, which some here have suggested was nothing related to the music. The question could and should be asked as follows:

If Taylor was working publicity for The Beach Boys, and the Beach Boys were arriving in the UK for a major tour, why would Taylor contact Brian for information on the tour when Brian wasn't involved in that tour at all? Related to that, if Taylor is set to publish a piece that says the Beach Boys' long-awaited album has been junked and will not come out, would it make sense or not for him to inform *them* their album has been scrapped and possibly get either a confirm or even a comment? Days after Taylor's article dropped, the band is either unaware of or is ignoring the fact that their Smile album has just been declared scrapped by their press agent in a major UK weekly music paper.

It's really some kind of SNAFU when neither the band nor their producer and main songwriter seems to have been aware their album was scrapped...unless there is more to it.



Just for reference, here is Andrew's original line of thought and the timeline of the articles:

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian.

Occam's razor.

Occam's razor may not cut through this one, or else it needs a good sharpening.  

Consider the articles/interviews from this time and what was both said by band members and reported by the writers. Not trying to suggest anything definitive, but weigh the evidence and the timeline as published (and spoken).

Taylor dropped that bombshell in a column reporting on the Beach Boys flying to the UK for the tour, and specifically the NME Poll Winners show which was the highlight. Taylor's piece came out before the Poll Winners show, yet includes tidbits about the band's arrival including how their plane had the banner listing "Igor.." and all of that. Taylor described "Igor" and the musicians and the plane before he dropped the Smile bombshell in the piece, he was reporting on the tour the band would be playing.

The other Altham article in NME which I referenced in posts above came *after* Taylor's piece had dropped. The text suggests it was after the Boys had received their NME award at the Poll event, but before they left the UK region to play the European leg of the tour. Altham's piece hit the stands in the May 27 issue, but the band member interviews had to be done sometime between May 8-10 or thereabouts if we match up the tour schedule to the article's contents.

In that article, Bruce is speaking about Smile as if it will come out, and is most enthusiastic about the music. Altham reports Carl as saying Brian was back home working on very important tracks for the album. Mike echos what Dennis said the previous week (while waiting for Carl to arrive in Ireland) about not being rushed and wanting to give fans a good product. They're all upset that an old song (and not even an original) was released as a stop-gap UK single by EMI to coincide with their tour.

If we reverse the scenario, how or why would it come to pass that Derek Taylor both reports info specific to the UK tour arrival which had to come from someone in the UK, then declares the Smile album had been scrapped...if such a decision were made, surely Taylor would have let the band members know of this as well. Instead, Bruce is talking about the upcoming Smile album and Carl is saying Brian is home working on important tracks, and they're all saying we can't be rushed...it's as if the band members didn't get the word that the album had been scrapped either.

That disconnect is as blatant and obvious as the scenario painted above where Brian was the tip-off to Taylor. Did Taylor when he was reporting on the band's arrival not bother to tell them the album was scrapped too? Bruce especially is talking as if the album is still coming out. Carl too...

These comments to Altham were after Taylor's piece: The band speaks as if they didn't get the word either.

[guitarfool2002]

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian.

Occam's razor.

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) Brian (not someone in the Beach Boys) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian one of the Beach Boys to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian the Beach Boys allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian. Taylor's source could indeed have been someone in the Beach Boys.

Occam's razor.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Taylor's source could have been someone in the Beach Boys.

Except that you disproved that (to your own satisfaction, at least) a few pages back. That's the problem with moving the goalposts - it's a bitch to move them back to where they were.  

[guitarfool2002]

Taylor's source could have been someone in the Beach Boys.

Except that you disproved that, to your own satisfaction, at least, a few pages back. That's the problem with moving the goalposts - it's a bitch to move them back to where they were. 

Not moving any goalposts...exploring every possible scenario, this time plugging in the reverse variables into your logic and getting a different answer as a result. If you stand by that logic to conclude Brian tipped off Taylor, you could flip it around and conclude someone in the Beach Boys did it.

The question is why were they (the Beach Boys) either blissfully unaware or ignoring the matter entirely when talking to Altbach after the Poll Winners show?

Related: Was there a point man within the group who would be Taylor's main contact for info at that time? Domenic Priore believes that person was Mike. Thoughts?

[Cam Mott]

Oh lord, more of this Vega-tables/Vegetables nonsense.  First of all, how do you pronounce Vega-tables?  Maybe a lot like . . . Vegetables?  

By the way, the Heroes single was NEVER intended to be on Smile, all along Brian knew it was for Smiley - because all the studio documentation slates et all make it clear he was recording "Heroes and Villains."  The track list for Smile makes it perfectly clear THAT Heroes was "Heroes and Villians."

1. No. Also spelled differently.

2. I don't have many of the Capitol forms and not all of the AFM sheets and just transcripts of the H&V Part II/Side 2 #57045 sessions but a quick scan of what I have looks like most of the SMiLE H&V sessions' AFMs show it as "Villians" like the SMiLE track list except Feb. 15, and possibly March 1 and 2. I only have one of the June AFMs and it is spelled as "Villains" just like the Smiley Smile track list. It would be interesting to hear from someone with better info (wagging my eyebrows toward c-man) how the spelling shook out.

So, I guess maybe the H&V spelling did change from "Heroes and Villians" for the SMiLE sessions and tracklist to the "Heroes and Villains" for the Smiley Smile sessions and tracklist, just like "Vega-tables" to "Vegetables" did.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Taylor's source could have been someone in the Beach Boys.

Except that you disproved that, to your own satisfaction, at least, a few pages back. That's the problem with moving the goalposts - it's a bitch to move them back to where they were. 

Not moving any goalposts...exploring every possible scenario, this time plugging in the reverse variables into your logic and getting a different answer as a result. If you stand by that logic to conclude Brian tipped off Taylor, you could flip it around and conclude someone in the Beach Boys did it.

The question is why were they (the Beach Boys) either blissfully unaware or ignoring the matter entirely when talking to Altbach after the Poll Winners show?

Related: Was there a point man within the group who would be Taylor's main contact for info at that time? Domenic Priore believes that person was Mike. Thoughts?

Altbach ? You know something we don't ? 

As for Dom assuming it was Mike, I think the only possible response to that is "well, he would, wouldn't he ?". Others have made the valid point that, as Brian was the man with all the toys, it's reasonable to assume it was him. Some feel it was Murry. The trick is not to pick an answer, then work back from it, but to scout around for that which might indicate an answer. Sadly, Derek is no longer with us, so I asked the other guy, and he said "no".

BTW, I knew I saw May 2nd as the given date for the "scrapped" article, and eventually, I remembered where - in David Leaf's book.

[Bicyclerider]

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian.

Occam's razor.

Let's do something criminally dumb, and introduce logic into a BB scenario.

Beach Boy X (not Brian) Brian (not someone in the Beach Boys) tells Taylor Smile is scrapped. Given that Taylor was directly employed by the band as their publicist, does he...

a) run to his typewriter, hammer out the release and wire it to D&ME without delay, or...

b) call Brian one of the Beach Boys to seek both confirmation and permission to publish ?

No-brainer: it's b). The problem is now, why would Brian the Beach Boys allow that - unless it was true ?  Of course, there is...

c) Beach Boy X is indeed Brian. Taylor's source could indeed have been someone in the Beach Boys.

Occam's razor.

That makes no sense.  If Brian told Taylor, why would he have to confirm it with the other Beach Boys?  If Brian scraps it, it's scrapped - he's the producer and songwriter.

"If Taylor was working publicity for The Beach Boys, and the Beach Boys were arriving in the UK for a major tour, why would Taylor contact Brian for information on the tour when Brian wasn't involved in that tour at all? Related to that, if Taylor is set to publish a piece that says the Beach Boys' long-awaited album has been junked and will not come out, would it make sense or not for him to inform *them* their album has been scrapped and possibly get either a confirm or even a comment?"

What makes you think Taylor would have to contact Brian for info on the tour to have Brian tell him that the album is scrapped?  Taylor and Brian are in L.A., lots of opportunities to meet and talk on the phone.  There could be TWO events - Brian tells him it's scrapped, and he gets tour information (his job as PR guy) to relay to the UK press from whomever.  He writes up the tour info and adds in the scrapped announcement.  Not his job to inform the Boys Smile is scrapped, it's Brian's or Capitol's or somebody in BRI, not him. 

[Cam Mott]

FdP, still it was very popular in England as #4 proves. That's in spite of all the previous handwringing of the band and jounos.

I'm not sure why we are chasing the tail of conjecture about who revealed SMiLE had been junked. According to art directors and production manager at Capitol during the SMiLE years the Producer, Brian in this case, was the only one with authority, Capitol required Producer approval of everything about the album right down to the wording of the back liner. Capitol would not recognize anyone one else in the band as having any authority to make changes let alone cancel because they weren't the Producer. Is it any different today?  I suppose A&R guy  Karl Engemann could have maybe exerted authority over Brian regarding the album (seems unlikey when they were trying avoid a suit and keep the Boys with the label) but we already know from the Taylor May 6 announcement itself as it explains the problems causing the cancellation and the scrapping were Brian's and the Boys were left wondering what was next (paraphrasing).

[Chownow]

This is a really interesting topic.


I feel like I've missed something, but Andrew Doe, if you are in contact with Mike Love, why not just ask him who it was that told Taylor the album was "scrapped", instead of everyone arguing about it here? I get the sense that he is not considered the most factually reliable guy (e.g. from the 2012 reunion tour threads) but surely he has an idea?

I understand you asked him if it was him, and he said no. But did you ask if he knew who told Taylor, or who he thought probably did?