Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[guitarfool2002]

 
Further, at  that precise early May '67 tour, we have comments by Brian, Mike and Bruce concerning dissatisfaction about the type of promotion of the live concerts in Europe which were promoting them as a surf band, and not including Brian's new work.   I think those quotes are in either Badman or Rusten.  I quoted them in some other contentious thread.  

I would like to see more examples of ads for the shows, specifically any that used the "surf band" label for the May 67 tour.

I've seen a handful from the pages of NME, Disc & Music Echo, and other UK ads that were more along the lines of this one I'll post here, where some version of the line "Arthur Howes Presents The World's # 1 Group" was prominent in the ad. Maybe I haven't seen all of the May 67 ads, but I've seen a handful and none have the word "surf" in the copy. Also, NME was still promoting them as the #1 group specific to the Poll Winners show, which received coverage the weeks before and after.

[guitarfool2002]

From the Carlin book (UK hardback, p. 120):

"If Taylor's distinction between "destroyed" and "scrapped" seems unclear, Brian must have felt the same way. In fact, there's reason to suggest that Brian didn't even know Taylor had announced the demise of Smile, a release that may have been authorised by other factions of The Beach Boys."

"May have been"... and a vague reference to "other factions". Further, the bibliography for Catch A Wave lists LLVS, making it entirely possible that Carlin's source was Priore.

From Dom's book, (UK paperback, p. 114):

"Mike Love, though Derek Taylor, told a counter-productive story to Disc & Music Echo...".

Specific enough for sure, but the problem is, Mike has this very day denied he said any such thing to Taylor... and the article itself makes no attribution.

As for the 4/29/67 report of 12 tracks being finished, "Vegetables" (sic) being the next single and the album being on a rush release schedule, again, no attribution as to who was the source, but - to me at least, you may disagree - talk of a rush release and all tracks being completed smack of a frantic record company trying to pressure someone into delivering product. But, as I stated, that's just me.

I'd like to dialogue on this a bit.

There was more to what Domenic wrote, specifically this line coming before the quote above:

"It's clear that, at this time, one hand had no idea what the other hand was doing. Mike Love's second-guessing had now taken the form of controlling Derek Taylor's media relations about the Beach Boys - a disastrous appropriation." A line which is followed by the description of the NME article by Keith Altham about the album being readied, the one that Taylor's post the next week contradicted entirely.

Direct question: Are you willing to suggest the process that led to him publishing those words (and that claim if we call it that) may have been flawed, and the claims published were either false, or deliberately fabricated by Domenic?

If so, I think Domenic in fairness should have his say, or at least make his case or defend himself. Reading that quote, those words are also specific and definitive sounding statements.

Is it now a case of he said versus he said? It seems that way.

[Cam Mott]

In the April 29 1967 D&ME Taylor is asking "What is going on with ‘Heroes and Villains’? What is ‘Vegetables’ the next single? When is the album ready?”.  

Maybe putting too much stock in Altham's knowledge is the problem.  I can't think of any one who was involved ever claiming the album was ever "completed", they say the opposite as far as I can remember.  

"Every indication the dispute with Capitol Records is over"? "Rough draft of the sleeve"? "Release" on a "rush schedule"? I agree with AGD the info sounds like wishful thinking coming from Capitol.

Why was Altham a cycle late with the report of Paul's visit if he was so clued in (also demonstrating that not everything makes the next week cycle in a weekly) and where does it say any of the info came from Brian?

[Andrew G. Doe]

From the Carlin book (UK hardback, p. 120):

"If Taylor's distinction between "destroyed" and "scrapped" seems unclear, Brian must have felt the same way. In fact, there's reason to suggest that Brian didn't even know Taylor had announced the demise of Smile, a release that may have been authorised by other factions of The Beach Boys."

"May have been"... and a vague reference to "other factions". Further, the bibliography for Catch A Wave lists LLVS, making it entirely possible that Carlin's source was Priore.

From Dom's book, (UK paperback, p. 114):

"Mike Love, though Derek Taylor, told a counter-productive story to Disc & Music Echo...".

Specific enough for sure, but the problem is, Mike has this very day denied he said any such thing to Taylor... and the article itself makes no attribution.

As for the 4/29/67 report of 12 tracks being finished, "Vegetables" (sic) being the next single and the album being on a rush release schedule, again, no attribution as to who was the source, but - to me at least, you may disagree - talk of a rush release and all tracks being completed smack of a frantic record company trying to pressure someone into delivering product. But, as I stated, that's just me.

I'd like to dialogue on this a bit.

Sure.

There was more to what Domenic wrote, specifically this line coming before the quote above:

"It's clear that, at this time, one hand had no idea what the other hand was doing. Mike Love's second-guessing had now taken the form of controlling Derek Taylor's media relations about the Beach Boys - a disastrous appropriation." A line which is followed by the description of the NME article by Keith Altham about the album being readied, the one that Taylor's post the next week contradicted entirely.

Direct question: Are you willing to suggest the process that led to him publishing those words (and that claim if we call it that) may have been flawed, and the claims published were either false, or deliberately fabricated by Domenic?

Accusing someone of lying isn't something I'm prone to do unless there's hard evidence they're doing just that. Dom's claim that Mike was, at the time, controlling Taylor's press releases doubtless had a considerable personal bias - he'll agree with anyone that Mike isn't his favourite band member - and the scrapped comment has as much supporting evidence that it was Mike as the 4/29/67 piece has that it was Brian: surely it would have said something along the lines of "Brian has said...". That is, none. Flawed, yes... false, in my opinion possibly... fabricated, no. Way back in the day, I wrote a piece about Brian's "lost years" (which is now utterly laughable to revisit) that put forth the proposition he started off the Spring sessions tentatively, then as he became more comfortable his involvement increased, and at the time I truly believed my assumption and reading of the available evidence was valid. Now, of course, we know the exact reverse is the case. What I'd written was indeed flawed, and false, but I didn't fabricate it out of thin air, or with malice aforethought.

If so, I think Domenic in fairness should have his say, or at least make his case or defend himself. Reading that quote, those words are also specific and definitive sounding statements.

They're definitive statements of Dom's opinions and beliefs, but are they facts ? No, I don't think so. As for words being specific, that's very subjective. For example:

"I told you in the garden".

I feel most folk would read that as "I told you when we were in the garden", and not "I told you when I was in the garden and you were down the road and round the corner."

Is it now a case of he said versus he said? It seems that way.

Always has been. Always will be. The question is which he is more credible in context. I, and pretty much every other poster in this thread, are willing to admit there are other possibilities and other readings, while you insist that all evidence shows Mike is responsible. Saying "that's exactly what happened" doesn't make it so.

[Micha]

when Cam Mott in this discussion says Smile was already scrapped before the April sessions, and the timelines list them all up to June 1967 as a "Smile Session" on the timeline, why not put a challenge to Cam

Actually I did, a few pages ago, and I did so because he based his claim solely on Al Jardine's memory, and human memories always prove to be faulty. His claim is to me no more plausible than yours. At least we know Cam's source, the Al interview. I don't think a lot of people agree with Cam on this matter.

I gave several sources for my interpretation, Micha, ol' pal.  

I see that first person testimony, land and album and union and Capitol documents don't stack up to second hand opinion and fan ears and fan opinions and fan timelines and unattributed biographies and what-not but I keep pushing anyway.

I have to admit that you brought forward the master number issue additionally to Al's vague memories. But IMHO that's no valid evidence either. The Smiley master number of H&V is first used in January, when there is no talk whatsoever yet of that session being for a different album project, and both Wonderful and Wind Chimes had two different master numbers during the SMiLE era. (WC unless it's a typo in the TSS book.) So again, ol' pal, we disagree.

I'm sorry, but I don't get what the word "land" means in the context of your posting - "land documents"? I must be reading it incorrectly.

[Micha]

So Mike says he didn't give the info to Taylor - you can either believe that or not. As I stated, human memory isn't written in stone and instead very liable to change over time, and of course, there is also the possibility he doesn't tell the truth.

Now that GF has decided to come down from Mount Olympus and granted us mortals knowledge of his source, the next one to ask for his source is Priore.

[Cam Mott]

when Cam Mott in this discussion says Smile was already scrapped before the April sessions, and the timelines list them all up to June 1967 as a "Smile Session" on the timeline, why not put a challenge to Cam

Actually I did, a few pages ago, and I did so because he based his claim solely on Al Jardine's memory, and human memories always prove to be faulty. His claim is to me no more plausible than yours. At least we know Cam's source, the Al interview. I don't think a lot of people agree with Cam on this matter.

I gave several sources for my interpretation, Micha, ol' pal.  

I see that first person testimony, land and album and union and Capitol documents don't stack up to second hand opinion and fan ears and fan opinions and fan timelines and unattributed biographies and what-not but I keep pushing anyway.

I have to admit that you brought forward the master number issue additionally to Al's vague memories. But IMHO that's no valid evidence either. The Smiley master number of H&V is first used in January, when there is no talk whatsoever yet of that session being for a different album project, and both Wonderful and Wind Chimes had two different master numbers during the SMiLE era. (WC unless it's a typo in the TSS book.) So again, ol' pal, we disagree.

I'm sorry, but I don't get what the word "land" means in the context of your posting - "land documents"? I must be reading it incorrectly.

I was talking about Vegetables' having a new master number and the land documents was in reference to a quote from Marilyn Wilson but I didn't express it very eloquently.  As always, your ol' pal in disagreement. 

[guitarfool2002]

Replying first to what I said was fact, I was posting "that's exactly what happened" to this discussion:

Since there was a BRI board at that time, which was established for more creative control, in existence for around a year, with voting members, wouldn't something as important as a new release have to be approached democratically, say, with advice, discussion, and a vote? 

This seems to be making a few unfounded assumptions, at least to me. The existence of a BRI board (which of course at that time would have consisted only of Mike and the Wilson brothers, not the other two band members) doesn't necessarily imply decisions have to be made democratically. It's perfectly plausible that band members were given areas of responsibility where they didn't have to consult the other members -- Brian might have been given total control over recordings, Carl over setlists, and so on. Without access to BRI's corporate decision-making process in 1967, we can't assume that things would be subject to democratic vote.

(Indeed, do we know that BRI owned the Beach Boys' name yet at that point, or did it get transferred later?)

Andrew H. - Not really - if the prime reason for the incorporation was "artistic control decision-making," it would seem to make little sense that any major decisions concerning releases, would have been done in a vacuum or without consensus. 

It is doubtful to me that in that high profile 2-week eventful time window of Carl's arrest, release, and travel to the UK, Inside Pop Brian (taped) appearance, that there were no overseas calls between and among corporate band members. I am making no assumptions but looking at the events as reported. 

That one band member says it is a "go," and one says it is a "no," is just not credible to me. 

That's exactly what happened. That's how in the span of a week, it was reported that the album was being readied for rush promotion, 12 tracks ready. Then Mike tells Derek Taylor in the UK something different, and it's now "scrapped".

It was my reply that - again instead of the actual topics at hand - got parsed and tried to be picked apart word by word, and used to argue or dispute things that weren't even an issue. I guess every reply needs to include a quote and be proofread before posting so the focus is on the issue and not the parsing/spelling/grammar/punctuation...

To put this to an end, it was not written to say that Derek was in the UK, it was not written to say that everything being said was "exactly what happened" and cold, hard fact...in this case, I was replying to Andrew Hickey's comment about band members not consulting other band members, and how that point was debated. And using the "source" of Domenic's book and interviews, as well as Carlin, if it was not Brian who declared the album scrapped, if it was not Carl who declared it scrapped...who on the BRI board as of 1967 was left to make such a call to the band's publicist? Mike or Dennis.

Is it reasonable to conclude using the reference materials that addressed this specific issue that someone had to tell Taylor the album was cancelled? Is it reasonable to use those reference materials and the bigger history to conclude Carl was all but unavailable at this exact time to handle band affairs due to his draft issues with the government? Is it reasonable to use the timeline of events following the Taylor announcement as well as Carlin and Priore to conclude Brian was still recording "Smile" music with the same methods as he did on Smile (described by Bicyclerider above) after Taylor declared the album scrapped?

So there was a wide disconnect, no, there IS a massive disconnect somewhere in this whole event. What happened seemed to be these statements were made without "BRI" as a group vote, if Mike says it wasn't him, if we can reasonably conclude it wasn't Carl who was very preoccupied, if it's said that Brian wasn't aware of it and his recording schedule backs up that he was still working on music for the apparently "scrapped" album, who does that leave on the BRI front? Dennis?

[SMiLE Brian]

It was a band coup from Mike Love, plain and simple. He got fed up with BW's tinkering and let the world know that "smile" was canceled without BW's input.

[guitarfool2002]

From the Carlin book (UK hardback, p. 120):

"If Taylor's distinction between "destroyed" and "scrapped" seems unclear, Brian must have felt the same way. In fact, there's reason to suggest that Brian didn't even know Taylor had announced the demise of Smile, a release that may have been authorised by other factions of The Beach Boys."

"May have been"... and a vague reference to "other factions". Further, the bibliography for Catch A Wave lists LLVS, making it entirely possible that Carlin's source was Priore.

From Dom's book, (UK paperback, p. 114):

"Mike Love, though Derek Taylor, told a counter-productive story to Disc & Music Echo...".

Specific enough for sure, but the problem is, Mike has this very day denied he said any such thing to Taylor... and the article itself makes no attribution.

As for the 4/29/67 report of 12 tracks being finished, "Vegetables" (sic) being the next single and the album being on a rush release schedule, again, no attribution as to who was the source, but - to me at least, you may disagree - talk of a rush release and all tracks being completed smack of a frantic record company trying to pressure someone into delivering product. But, as I stated, that's just me.

I'd like to dialogue on this a bit.

Sure.

There was more to what Domenic wrote, specifically this line coming before the quote above:

"It's clear that, at this time, one hand had no idea what the other hand was doing. Mike Love's second-guessing had now taken the form of controlling Derek Taylor's media relations about the Beach Boys - a disastrous appropriation." A line which is followed by the description of the NME article by Keith Altham about the album being readied, the one that Taylor's post the next week contradicted entirely.

Direct question: Are you willing to suggest the process that led to him publishing those words (and that claim if we call it that) may have been flawed, and the claims published were either false, or deliberately fabricated by Domenic?

Accusing someone of lying isn't something I'm prone to do unless there's hard evidence they're doing just that. Dom's claim that Mike was, at the time, controlling Taylor's press releases doubtless had a considerable personal bias - he'll agree with anyone that Mike isn't his favourite band member - and the scrapped comment has as much supporting evidence that it was Mike as the 4/29/67 piece has that it was Brian: surely it would have said something along the lines of "Brian has said...". That is, none. Flawed, yes... false, in my opinion possibly... fabricated, no. Way back in the day, I wrote a piece about Brian's "lost years" (which is now utterly laughable to revisit) that put forth the proposition he started off the Spring sessions tentatively, then as he became more comfortable his involvement increased, and at the time I truly believed my assumption and reading of the available evidence was valid. Now, of course, we know the exact reverse is the case. What I'd written was indeed flawed, and false, but I didn't fabricate it out of thin air, or with malice aforethought.

If so, I think Domenic in fairness should have his say, or at least make his case or defend himself. Reading that quote, those words are also specific and definitive sounding statements.

They're definitive statements of Dom's opinions and beliefs, but are they facts ? No, I don't think so. As for words being specific, that's very subjective. For example:

"I told you in the garden".

I feel most folk would read that as "I told you when we were in the garden", and not "I told you when I was in the garden and you were down the road and round the corner."

Is it now a case of he said versus he said? It seems that way.

Always has been. Always will be. The question is which he is more credible in context. I, and pretty much every other poster in this thread, are willing to admit there are other possibilities and other readings, while you insist that all evidence shows Mike is responsible. Saying "that's exactly what happened" doesn't make it so.

First, no, Domenic Priore published and said in interviews that Mike was responsible, that Mike was the one at that time controlling Derek Taylor's media relations for the Beach Boys, and then going from that to say it was Mike that gave Derek the word that Smile was scrapped.

What I or anyone else on this board says or said isn't the core of the issue, what we have now is up to this point (to my knowledge) no one had really offered much of a background on how Taylor could have made such a statement when it was premature at best and not accurate for that time, and contradictory as well to other reports. We have Priore saying what he said and published in his book, we have Mike saying it wasn't him.

If Domenic wrote as specifically as he did related to this issue, then Mike says no - it wasn't him, it's now people choosing whose version of events to believe. Up to this point the only accounts that went deeper into how Taylor would come to write such a thing were Domenic's book and interviews and Carlin's book that stated there was reason to believe Taylor wrote what he did with Brian unaware of it and that it instead was "factions within the Beach Boys". Those are two published books and interviews giving that information, where no one up to this week had really gone deeper to see how this mess actually happened.

I doubt as authors Priore and Carlin would publish this specific claim without sourcing and checking the info they're going to publish, but again it's up to them if they choose to address or even defend where they sourced the info that backed up what they wrote in light of Mike saying he wasn't Taylor's source.

But what it does say now is their word has been put in doubt based on Mike's word - I'd like to see the authors whose accounts were the only frame of reference up to this point offer some explanation on how they came to write what they did.

As said, it is "he said versus he said" and every band member as far as we know has made statements that were not accurate at various times. So hopefully we'll hear more so both sides get their say.


Further dialogue relative to Taylor: Would it make sense for a band's press agent to drop such a bombshell of an announcement that not only affected his client but also his client's business with their label? Capitol was still expecting and planning for a release, Brian judging from his activities was still working toward a release (Altham article aside though it backs that up), the band was on tour for another several weeks and wouldn't be able to do much of anything recording wise until they returned home...unless he just acted on his own, which is possible, why would Taylor essentially collapse what his clients were planning to do, or why would it be done prematurely? It makes no sense, as said many times.

The only explanations so far have been published by Priore, Carlin, and now Mike. And they contradict. So where does it stand? or, better question, what other possibilities and other readings exist if we've eliminated nearly every other possibility and reading except it was either Taylor acting alone or it was someone other than Mike, Brian, or Carl in the band that tipped him off.

[filledeplage]

Further, at  that precise early May '67 tour, we have comments by Brian, Mike and Bruce concerning dissatisfaction about the type of promotion of the live concerts in Europe which were promoting them as a surf band, and not including Brian's new work.   I think those quotes are in either Badman or Rusten.  I quoted them in some other contentious thread.  

I would like to see more examples of ads for the shows, specifically any that used the "surf band" label for the May 67 tour.

I've seen a handful from the pages of NME, Disc & Music Echo, and other UK ads that were more along the lines of this one I'll post here, where some version of the line "Arthur Howes Presents The World's # 1 Group" was prominent in the ad. Maybe I haven't seen all of the May 67 ads, but I've seen a handful and none have the word "surf" in the copy. Also, NME was still promoting them as the #1 group specific to the Poll Winners show, which received coverage the weeks before and after.

GF - Thanks for finding that ad.  Those photos don't look like 1967 Beach Boys.  They look like mid year of 1965.  Girls notice that stuff.  It is a cut-and-paste. 

In Carlin's book, p. 112 "...Brian, for instance, had never once been paid for his work as a producer.  The group filed a lawsuit against the label, but the move only prompted more tension in his dealings with the executives already impatient to get Smile in the stores.  Worse, several of Brian's closest aides (who are unnamed) came to believe that Murry Wilson, who had negotiated and countersigned the first contract, might have had something to do with the situation.  How could such a savvy, hands-on businessman (I don't know who that is either) have failed to recognize the disparity between what Capitol owned and what they were actually paying?   They even speculated (Brian's aides?) that that he (Murry?) may have received some kind of kickback in exchange for not tipping off his sons that they were being ripped off.  No one knew for sure..."

This is happening during the Smile Sessions.  
 

[filledeplage]

sorry double post -

[Cam Mott]

In the weeks before the May 6 issue, Taylor was describing how Brian had problems with the SMiLE album music and the single, so it was something Taylor was aware of and discussing and that was when they all were in LA. He attributes the problems as Brian's with the Boys as sort of bystanders. Unless Priore has something concrete, his claim does not seem to fit.  Again I'm puzzled how we go so speculative about this while we ignore that Brian was not recording SMiLE music beginning April 4, Vegetables is neither the title, lyrics, or master number of a SMiLE track, it is all of those of a Smiley Smile track. ILTSDD is not a SMiLE title.

Why would Capitol pay any attention to a unilateral Mike pronouncement (or any of the Boys save the Producer)? Why would Taylor? Brian was the Producer. Why would Brian not just have Taylor make a correction announcement (as was done with Vegetables) if it wasn't something he wanted or agreed with or was just premature or incorrect? Why would Taylor be a toll free phone call away from Brian, who he knows is the Producer, ask about this information? I find Dom's claim exetremely suspicious as of now with no evidence.

[bonnevillemariner]

You know, as much as I love Smile (to the point of spending countless hours making my own mixes of it, which hours a reasonable person might allocate to, say, spending quality time with family and forwarding a career), I have approximately zero interest in the whole elements mythos.  I couldn't care less if "Wind Chimes" was Air. But... I'm glad that so many of you do, and it's way interesting to read you're back-and-forth.

[Emily]

I'm sorry, but I don't get what the word "land" means in the context of your posting - "land documents"? I must be reading it incorrectly.

I was talking about Vegetables' having a new master number and the land documents was in reference to a quote from Marilyn Wilson but I didn't express it very eloquently.  As always, your ol' pal in disagreement. 

I'm sorry Cam, but I'm still not clear on 'land documents'. Is it a reference to their moving houses or is there a sort of document known as a 'land document' that I'm unaware of?

[Emily]

Two questions for whoever knows:
Is there evidence that BW was the source for the first report (that Smile was about ready to go)?
I have LLVS but if I've ever read Priore's history it was long ago. I understand that the conventional wisdom is that he's greatly biased but outside of that has he been proven factually incorrect more than is usual for a popular historian?

[Cam Mott]

I'm sorry, but I don't get what the word "land" means in the context of your posting - "land documents"? I must be reading it incorrectly.

I was talking about Vegetables' having a new master number and the land documents was in reference to a quote from Marilyn Wilson but I didn't express it very eloquently.  As always, your ol' pal in disagreement. 

I'm sorry Cam, but I'm still not clear on 'land documents'. Is it a reference to their moving houses or is there a sort of document known as a 'land document' that I'm unaware of?

It was a Joint Tenancy Deed for the Bellagio house.

[Micha]

Why would Capitol pay any attention to a unilateral Mike pronouncement (or any of the Boys save the Producer)? Why would Taylor? Brian was the Producer. Why would Brian not just have Taylor make a correction announcement (as was done with Vegetables) if it wasn't something he wanted or agreed with or was just premature or incorrect? Why would Taylor be a toll free phone call away from Brian, who he knows is the Producer, ask about this information? I find Dom's claim extremely suspicious as of now with no evidence.

In this matter though, Cam, we agree. Yay!

[Emily]

I'm sorry, but I don't get what the word "land" means in the context of your posting - "land documents"? I must be reading it incorrectly.

I was talking about Vegetables' having a new master number and the land documents was in reference to a quote from Marilyn Wilson but I didn't express it very eloquently.  As always, your ol' pal in disagreement. 

I'm sorry Cam, but I'm still not clear on 'land documents'. Is it a reference to their moving houses or is there a sort of document known as a 'land document' that I'm unaware of?

It was a Joint Tenancy Deed for the Bellagio house.

I was thinking you meant something along those lines, but I don't trust my knowledge enough in this area to assume. Thank you!

[filledeplage]

In the weeks before the May 6 issue, Taylor was describing how Brian had problems with the SMiLE album music and the single, so it was something Taylor was aware of and discussing and that was when they all were in LA. He attributes the problems as Brian's with the Boys as sort of bystanders. Unless Priore has something concrete, his claim does not seem to fit.  Again I'm puzzled how we go so speculative about this while we ignore that Brian was not recording SMiLE music beginning April 4, Vegetables is neither the title, lyrics, or master number of a SMiLE track, it is all of those of a Smiley Smile track. ILTSDD is not a SMiLE title.

Why would Capitol pay any attention to a unilateral Mike pronouncement (or any of the Boys save the Producer)? Why would Taylor? Brian was the Producer. Why would Brian not just have Taylor make a correction announcement (as was done with Vegetables) if it wasn't something he wanted or agreed with or was just premature or incorrect? Why would Taylor be a toll free phone call away from Brian, who he knows is the Producer, ask about this information? I find Dom's claim exetremely suspicious as of now with no evidence.

Cam - here is my problem.  Taylor's job is to generate propaganda and buzz for the band.  Keep it light, upbeat and forward-moving... So, my first problem with him is that he is the one who first writes that "Brian is a genius." (p. 109) Brian's response is "I'm just a hard working guy." p. 110 (Carlin)

"Derek Taylor started to lay even more of the group's public reputation on the shoulders of its semireculusilve leader. "This is Brian Wilson.  He is a Beach Boy.  Some say he is more. (who?) Some say he is Beach Boy and a genius," read the headline of one typical profile.  And the text didn't let up: "This twenty-three-year-old powerhouse not only sings with the famous group, he writes the words, and music then arranges, engineers, and produces the disc..." I'll stop here for a second.  If Taylor is announcing Brian's tasks, which was supported by Johnston in the C50 Prism film series, he says that (I am paraphrasing) that Brian had "all these jobs."  

So, Taylor is writing the job description and Brian is maybe not getting paid.  

"...It's the last line that's priceless (thought the rest of it doesn't' hesitate to stretch the facts up to and beyond the breaking point ) given the expert way Taylor, working through a reporter (or alter ego) identified as "60's Hollywood reporter Jerry Fineman," manages to both assert Brian's genius and then shrug it off as a nuisance in the same breath."  

This looks like another "interview within an interview." An interview "through Mike?"  

"A canny publicist with a hipster's sensibility and novelist's eye for poetic imagery.  Taylor could sense how well the image of Brian as a solitary, quirky genius would play to the rapidly maturing, increasingly serious rock audience." (p. 110) Carlin.

Was Taylor trying to cause a split within the band and undermine that essential arrangement among the band, where Brian would be working on composition and the band would be out in the field working?  

A publicist's job is to make you look good.  It is a peer, who calls you a "genius" because they recognize a unique technique or process that is innovative and barrier-breaking.  Bernstein is a musician with credentials in music. Bernstein is bona fide. That is Bernstein's job and not Taylor's.  The more I read about these people the less I believe anything they say.  

Doesn't mean any of these people are inherently bad people.  But some have conflicting industry agendas that may or may not have always had the Beach Boys' (all of them) interest uppermost in their sights.    

[AndrewHickey]

Two questions for whoever knows:
Is there evidence that BW was the source for the first report (that Smile was about ready to go)?
I have LLVS but if I've ever read Priore's history it was long ago. I understand that the conventional wisdom is that he's greatly biased but outside of that has he been proven factually incorrect more than is usual for a popular historian?

It depends what you mean by "more than is usual". Priore has a tendency to make small assumptions and present them as part of the narrative, without checking every tiny detail. So you end up sometimes with things like this paragraph from his "Riot on Sunset Strip" (the only book of his I have in electronic format to copy stuff from):

"When Kurtzman made an attempt to create a hip version of Mad called Help!, he chose a student from Birmingham High School in Los Angeles named Terry Gilliam as his associate editor. Gilliam studied art at Occidental College in LA and absorbed Sunset Strip culture while working at Help!. His talents were finally exposed to a larger audience from 1969 onward as the Californian member of the UK television comedy troupe Monty Python."

Now, it's true that Gilliam studied at Birmingham High School and Occidental College in LA, and became associate editor of Help! under Kurtzman. But to say he "absorbed Sunset Strip culture while working at Help!" seems unlikely, as Help! was based in New York, not LA, and its last issue was the one cover-dated September 1965 (I don't know the date it was released, but usually magazine cover dates are the month after release, so I'd guess August 1965), and while there's no hard start date to the "Sunset Strip culture" Priore's writing about, it was only just starting in summer '65.
To call Gilliam "the Californian member" of Monty Python also seems misleading, as while Gilliam did study in LA, he was born in Minnesota and only moved to LA when he was 12, moved away after finishing university, and by the time Monty Python had started he had British citizenship, so either "Minnesotan" or "British" would be more accurate than "Californian".

That's one example I noticed -- there are others. He's not saying anything definitely *wrong* there, and you'd get the right overall impression, but I wouldn't personally rely on Priore as my only source for a detail.

(Note that I am NOT saying Priore is a bad writer or researcher here -- rather that what he's doing is trying to construct a narrative, rather than an academic study. Different standards apply, I think.)

[Cam Mott]

In the weeks before the May 6 issue, Taylor was describing how Brian had problems with the SMiLE album music and the single, so it was something Taylor was aware of and discussing and that was when they all were in LA. He attributes the problems as Brian's with the Boys as sort of bystanders. Unless Priore has something concrete, his claim does not seem to fit.  Again I'm puzzled how we go so speculative about this while we ignore that Brian was not recording SMiLE music beginning April 4, Vegetables is neither the title, lyrics, or master number of a SMiLE track, it is all of those of a Smiley Smile track. ILTSDD is not a SMiLE title.

Why would Capitol pay any attention to a unilateral Mike pronouncement (or any of the Boys save the Producer)? Why would Taylor? Brian was the Producer. Why would Brian not just have Taylor make a correction announcement (as was done with Vegetables) if it wasn't something he wanted or agreed with or was just premature or incorrect? Why would Taylor be a toll free phone call away from Brian, who he knows is the Producer, ask about this information? I find Dom's claim exetremely suspicious as of now with no evidence.

Cam - here is my problem.  Taylor's job is to generate propaganda and buzz for the band.  Keep it light, upbeat and forward-moving... So, my first problem with him is that he is the one who first writes that "Brian is a genius." (p. 109) Brian's response is "I'm just a hard working guy." p. 110 (Carlin)

"Derek Taylor started to lay even more of the group's public reputation on the shoulders of its semireculusilve leader. "This is Brian Wilson.  He is a Beach Boy.  Some say he is more. (who?) Some say he is Beach Boy and a genius," read the headline of one typical profile.  And the text didn't let up: "This twenty-three-year-old powerhouse not only sings with the famous group, he writes the words, and music then arranges, engineers, and produces the disc..." I'll stop here for a second.  If Taylor is announcing Brian's tasks, which was supported by Johnston in the C50 Prism film series, he says that (I am paraphrasing) that Brian had "all these jobs."  

So, Taylor is writing the job description and Brian is maybe not getting paid.  

"...It's the last line that's priceless (thought the rest of it doesn't' hesitate to stretch the facts up to and beyond the breaking point ) given the expert way Taylor, working through a reporter (or alter ego) identified as "60's Hollywood reporter Jerry Fineman," manages to both assert Brian's genius and then shrug it off as a nuisance in the same breath."  

This looks like another "interview within an interview." An interview "through Mike?"  

"A canny publicist with a hipster's sensibility and novelist's eye for poetic imagery.  Taylor could sense how well the image of Brian as a solitary, quirky genius would play to the rapidly maturing, increasingly serious rock audience." (p. 110) Carlin.

Was Taylor trying to cause a split within the band and undermine that essential arrangement among the band, where Brian would be working on composition and the band would be out in the field working?  

A publicist's job is to make you look good.  It is a peer, who calls you a "genius" because they recognize a unique technique or process that is innovative and barrier-breaking.  Bernstein is a musician with credentials in music. Bernstein is bona fide. That is Bernstein's job and not Taylor's.  The more I read about these people the less I believe anything they say.  

Doesn't mean any of these people are inherently bad people.  But some have conflicting industry agendas that may or may not have always had the Beach Boys' (all of them) interest uppermost in their sights.    

Taylor was revealing that Brian was having issues with his own music when others were incorrectly saying everything is hunky dory so I guess I'm not seeing how that would be Taylor myth making or PRing.  Carlin sounds like conjecture to me but I don't know, maybe he will come on here and gives his sources.

[Emily]

Two questions for whoever knows:
Is there evidence that BW was the source for the first report (that Smile was about ready to go)?
I have LLVS but if I've ever read Priore's history it was long ago. I understand that the conventional wisdom is that he's greatly biased but outside of that has he been proven factually incorrect more than is usual for a popular historian?

It depends what you mean by "more than is usual". Priore has a tendency to make small assumptions and present them as part of the narrative, without checking every tiny detail. So you end up sometimes with things like this paragraph from his "Riot on Sunset Strip" (the only book of his I have in electronic format to copy stuff from):

"When Kurtzman made an attempt to create a hip version of Mad called Help!, he chose a student from Birmingham High School in Los Angeles named Terry Gilliam as his associate editor. Gilliam studied art at Occidental College in LA and absorbed Sunset Strip culture while working at Help!. His talents were finally exposed to a larger audience from 1969 onward as the Californian member of the UK television comedy troupe Monty Python."

Now, it's true that Gilliam studied at Birmingham High School and Occidental College in LA, and became associate editor of Help! under Kurtzman. But to say he "absorbed Sunset Strip culture while working at Help!" seems unlikely, as Help! was based in New York, not LA, and its last issue was the one cover-dated September 1965 (I don't know the date it was released, but usually magazine cover dates are the month after release, so I'd guess August 1965), and while there's no hard start date to the "Sunset Strip culture" Priore's writing about, it was only just starting in summer '65.
To call Gilliam "the Californian member" of Monty Python also seems misleading, as while Gilliam did study in LA, he was born in Minnesota and only moved to LA when he was 12, moved away after finishing university, and by the time Monty Python had started he had British citizenship, so either "Minnesotan" or "British" would be more accurate than "Californian".

That's one example I noticed -- there are others. He's not saying anything definitely *wrong* there, and you'd get the right overall impression, but I wouldn't personally rely on Priore as my only source for a detail.

(Note that I am NOT saying Priore is a bad writer or researcher here -- rather that what he's doing is trying to construct a narrative, rather than an academic study. Different standards apply, I think.)

understood. Thanks for the good example.

[guitarfool2002]

Look at other articles also from May 1967 and statements made in those articles by various writers and band members. At that point in the UK there was a lot of talk about why the Heroes single was abandoned or delayed, why the old single was released in its place, and what was going on with a new album or single. Dennis, Bruce, Mike, and Carl at various times said the reason for the holdup was they didn't want to be rushed, and each said a variation of "we want to give the public the best product we can".

Dennis was interviewed the day of the Dublin show while waiting for Carl to fly in from the US to play that first show of the tour in Dublin. He defends the art of it, explains why they didn't release Heroes: "Oh, we got a little frightened. We've got a lot of songs recorded, but we got nervous about whether they were good enough. We've got afraid to put anything out unless it comes up to a certain standard. We're not just putting out singles to sell thousands and earn money."

Bruce was interviewed at a later show on the same leg of the show by the same Keith Altham who wrote the piece published April 29 saying Smile was being readied. After expressing his anger over releasing Then I Kissed Her as a single, he says: "I've got some tapes at home of the new tracks to be on the "Smile" LP which would blow your mind. All the ideas are new and Brian is coming up with fantastic ideas all the time"

Mike in that same article, same interview, after also commenting on the EMI single decision says: "The reason for the hold up with the new single has simply been that we wanted to give our public the best and the best isn't ready yet."

Carl's interviews from roughly the same time suggest Brian was working in the studio.

So add all of that up, the "word" from the band members ranges from Bruce suggesting Smile would be coming out, Dennis saying it will come out when it's ready, and Mike saying something similar.

This same week those interviews were given, Taylor writes that the album was scrapped.

Two weeks after the interviews, Brian is working on "DaDa" following the same template he had been recording Smile previously.

When the Beach Boys returned from the tour, the first week of sessions they did were at Western and Sound Recorders for Vegetables, With Me Tonight, and Cool Cool Water. Not the home studio, which didn't exist and wasn't ready to do sessions, but instead at the "pro studios" Brian had been using all along. The next week, they started using the home studio to start tracking Heroes, followed by Vegetables (again).



Is it out of the question to suggest something major within the band developed between that last Western session and the first "home studio" session which caused such a dramatic shift in the work?

Ironically it was Derek Taylor who - when writing his hype piece (aka PR) for the "new" Heroes single release in July '67, wrote this:

"In one inspired decision, (Nick) Grillo and the Beach Boys were able to a. Make use of Brian Wilson's new house, b. restructure the attitude and atmosphere at recording sessions and c. remove the problem of availability of commercial studios. They built their own 8-track studio in the Spanish house."

Does tracing that line add up to anything, or does it show where the band members' minds were at when talking to Altham and other press people on the UK tour, versus what Derek Taylor was writing? I don't know. But it's there (and more) for consideration.

My question beyond what the hell happened with Taylor's "scrapped" article is what did Taylor later mean when he wrote "b. Restructure the attitude and atmosphere at recording sessions". Any guesses what that refers to? Compromises, perhaps?

[guitarfool2002]

Look at other articles also from May 1967 and statements made in those articles by various writers and band members. At that point in the UK there was a lot of talk about why the Heroes single was abandoned or delayed, why the old single was released in its place, and what was going on with a new album or single. Dennis, Bruce, Mike, and Carl at various times said the reason for the holdup was they didn't want to be rushed, and each said a variation of "we want to give the public the best product we can".

Dennis was interviewed the day of the Dublin show while waiting for Carl to fly in from the US to play that first show of the tour in Dublin. He defends the art of it, explains why they didn't release Heroes: "Oh, we got a little frightened. We've got a lot of songs recorded, but we got nervous about whether they were good enough. We've got afraid to put anything out unless it comes up to a certain standard. We're not just putting out singles to sell thousands and earn money."

Bruce was interviewed at a later show on the same leg of the show by the same Keith Altham who wrote the piece published April 29 saying Smile was being readied. After expressing his anger over releasing Then I Kissed Her as a single, he says: "I've got some tapes at home of the new tracks to be on the "Smile" LP which would blow your mind. All the ideas are new and Brian is coming up with fantastic ideas all the time"

Mike in that same article, same interview, after also commenting on the EMI single decision says: "The reason for the hold up with the new single has simply been that we wanted to give our public the best and the best isn't ready yet."

Carl's interviews from roughly the same time suggest Brian was working in the studio.

So add all of that up, the "word" from the band members ranges from Bruce suggesting Smile would be coming out, Dennis saying it will come out when it's ready, and Mike saying something similar.

This same week those interviews were given, Taylor writes that the album was scrapped.

Two weeks after the interviews, Brian is working on "DaDa" following the same template he had been recording Smile previously.

When the Beach Boys returned from the tour, the first week of sessions they did were at Western and Sound Recorders for Vegetables, With Me Tonight, and Cool Cool Water. Not the home studio, which didn't exist and wasn't ready to do sessions, but instead at the "pro studios" Brian had been using all along. The next week, they started using the home studio to start tracking Heroes, followed by Vegetables (again).



Is it out of the question to suggest something major within the band developed between that last Western session and the first "home studio" session which caused such a dramatic shift in the work?

Ironically it was Derek Taylor who - when writing his hype piece (aka PR) for the "new" Heroes single release in July '67, wrote this:

"In one inspired decision, (Nick) Grillo and the Beach Boys were able to a. Make use of Brian Wilson's new house, b. restructure the attitude and atmosphere at recording sessions and c. remove the problem of availability of commercial studios. They built their own 8-track studio in the Spanish house."

Does tracing that line add up to anything, or does it show where the band members' minds were at when talking to Altham and other press people on the UK tour, versus what Derek Taylor was writing? I don't know. But it's there (and more) for consideration.

My question beyond what the hell happened with Taylor's "scrapped" article is what did Taylor later mean when he wrote "b. Restructure the attitude and atmosphere at recording sessions". Any guesses what that refers to? Compromises, perhaps?

Adding to that, specifically addressed to Cam Mott: If as you've suggested Brian's move to the new house was some kind of point where the idea of "Smile" was abandoned, Bruce for one as of May 1967 was still suggesting the Smile album would be released. Their reasons and quotes are listed above.

Further, the notion of using Brian's house to record does not seem to have been on the table until the band returned from Europe at the end of May. Even then, they were still using Western for a series of sessions upon their return. If you trace what Taylor wrote about this time, the decision to record at Brian's house could have (and most likely did) come in that week the band was back at Western in June 1967 still tracking Vegetables sessions.

The way the studio was hastily assembled using rented gear from Wally Heider, a radio station broadcast console (the Gates Dualux) versus an actual studio board, and cables running around the various floors and rooms of the house suggest it was indeed an ad hoc setup and not planned out or constructed in advance. The notion from the July Taylor piece is that the band with Grillo must have worked out some details and changed gears to get working on an album sometime after they returned from Europe, and whatever 'attitude and atmosphere' changes were discussed led to the change in direction that produced an ad hoc studio, a "produced by the Beach Boys" credit, and a total shift in direction from where Brian was recording up to that week in June.