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Author Topic: Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?  (Read 118860 times)
The_Holy_Bee
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« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2016, 10:30:12 PM »

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Altham in NME was reporting what he heard from Brian Wilson, that the 12 tracks were ready to go.

Well, NME was a weekly publication, so even considering its publication being based on another continent, this indicates a pretty narrow window between 'twelve tracks are ready to go' and 'the album is scrapped'. Add in GF's inference that it wasn't Brian who called 'scrapped' on the record, and I'm more deeply intrigued by the events of late-April than I ever thought I might be.
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« Reply #151 on: January 26, 2016, 01:01:03 AM »

If the main tracks as we have become familiar with were released, I cannot imagine them fitting on one LP, even purely for counting the minutes. 

It would likely mean leaving off longer tracks such as GV, which was an anchor.  One single track? It might have been a new model...but if you are dividing "elements" concepts, it seems difficult to do.  Aren't medleys (entirely different songs) sort of blended in that manner?  Someone with the sound engineering background might be able to answer that question which might be a dumb one.

The double LP concept was one that was a very new in 1967. LPs were often used for classical music and Broadway shows or soundtracks for movies for the capacity to offer a more complete work. And it sure beat flipping over a bunch of 45s.  But,  what seemed lacking was "confidence" in the project to make a go of it, and not that it lacked quality.  It would have been bold.  Wink

How many hours of material did Brian record for "Good Vibrations"? Yet that single didn't even run two sides. Brian would have made Smile fit on two sides of a mid-60's vinyl lp, period. The kitchen sink mixes are a fun take and some fans have made some really entertaining ones but that's all they are: Fan mixes.

Brian knew Smile was 12 songs (give or take), he even knew which songs. He knew the puzzle, he knew the size of the puzzle. His only problem with Smile, the reason it took several decades to finish, is he wasn't able to narrow which pieces belonged in the puzzle and which ones didn't.

My personal Smile runs about 45 minutes and is quite similar than BWPS, excluding just "Look" and "Holidays". It would fit on a single album, with room to spare. My version of "The Elements" is one, four part song, that runs almost a minute less than my "Heroes And Villains. No second disc necessary.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #152 on: January 26, 2016, 04:30:15 AM »

In the April 22 issue of D&ME, Taylor was describing the Veg session with Paul and explaining how "Vege-tables" was the next single. He also was explaining that there were problems and delays with forthcoming BB product as a result of Brian's re-evaluation of the music. Looking at what happened and who had the best prior info it would seem to be Taylor to me as he was explaining delays and changes while others were claiming finished and imminent.

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« Reply #153 on: January 26, 2016, 04:43:49 AM »

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.


Yes. Yes he is.   Wink

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.

Well, he's certainly mixing up the "single version" with the Smiley version, as he's claiming he played water bottles on that version recorded when McC visited. Al's a great guy , but human memory is not like written in stone, it's been 50 years ago, and he's not a researcher and hairsplitter like us.
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« Reply #154 on: January 26, 2016, 04:49:37 AM »

he even knew which songs.

Well... personally I doubt that. The crossed out parentheses on the December list indicate he wasn't that certain about it.
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« Reply #155 on: January 26, 2016, 05:09:10 AM »

Derek Taylor was the PR rep.. is it plausible Derek was hyping the album by saying it was scrapped, then Brian saw that as an opportunity to exit?
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puni puni
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« Reply #156 on: January 26, 2016, 05:14:34 AM »

So to say: "Brian says Air was a piano piece, so what have we got on TSS that is a piano piece… it must be one of those... ah yes, the Wind Chimes tag!!!" is too simplistic, I think.

Jesus, man. This is Brian Wilson, not Franz Kafka.
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« Reply #157 on: January 26, 2016, 05:43:31 AM »

If the main tracks as we have become familiar with were released, I cannot imagine them fitting on one LP, even purely for counting the minutes. 

It would likely mean leaving off longer tracks such as GV, which was an anchor.  One single track? It might have been a new model...but if you are dividing "elements" concepts, it seems difficult to do.  Aren't medleys (entirely different songs) sort of blended in that manner?  Someone with the sound engineering background might be able to answer that question which might be a dumb one.

The double LP concept was one that was a very new in 1967. LPs were often used for classical music and Broadway shows or soundtracks for movies for the capacity to offer a more complete work. And it sure beat flipping over a bunch of 45s.  But,  what seemed lacking was "confidence" in the project to make a go of it, and not that it lacked quality.  It would have been bold.  Wink

How many hours of material did Brian record for "Good Vibrations"? Yet that single didn't even run two sides. Brian would have made Smile fit on two sides of a mid-60's vinyl lp, period. The kitchen sink mixes are a fun take and some fans have made some really entertaining ones but that's all they are: Fan mixes.

Brian knew Smile was 12 songs (give or take), he even knew which songs. He knew the puzzle, he knew the size of the puzzle. His only problem with Smile, the reason it took several decades to finish, is he wasn't able to narrow which pieces belonged in the puzzle and which ones didn't.

My personal Smile runs about 45 minutes and is quite similar than BWPS, excluding just "Look" and "Holidays". It would fit on a single album, with room to spare. My version of "The Elements" is one, four part song, that runs almost a minute less than my "Heroes And Villains. No second disc necessary.
puni puni - what little I know about the length of LPs has or had to do with the number of minutes during the 60ish era has to do, as best I understand it, is the diminution of quality as the length of grooves cut increases.  I read where Arthur Fiedler put an enormous amount of time on an LP, both sides. 

But, if you  have a bad stylus/bad record needle, or, a some scratches on it,  that would diminish the sound quality.  So, whether that became an industry standard is better discussed by someone knowledgeable than I.  But, if you have 45 minutes and the rough standard is around 15 minutes per side, what do you do with the extra side?   Do you produce an album with an extra "blank" side or do you more fully "tell the story" with the extra sound/story details that add fullness to the work?  A double BB album of new work, would have knocked it out of the park and made the world take notice.  And that is JMHO.   Wink   

Since some the extra tracks leaked out on other LPs - the listener can create his or her own response to the work.  We knew there was more.  It might not have "fit" an original plan, but maybe it made is more comprehensive.   
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« Reply #158 on: January 26, 2016, 05:53:07 AM »

I didn't copy and clip every week's issue of this publication. But I've seen them and have them available. In subsequent issues, dated going into May, the same column reported on "Then I Kissed Her" going in as the "new" Beach Boys single to coincide with their UK tour at that time. It also mentioned "Vegetables", as they got the "s" on it this time, possibly not being the next single. It was information being sorted out and reported as it came in. The same column also reported on Paul and Mal's trip to the US in early April, again in an issue not listed above.

Lo and behold, in one of the May issues the same column reported Carl's surrendering to the FBI in New York and his issues with the draft. The same column below has speculations about Bob Dylan's disappearance, and goes on to report what fans years later would know as "The Basement Tapes", but when that story was new and rumors were flying, the thought was Dylan had not yet recovered from his accident and was "in seclusion" in a rural farmhouse near Woodstock, New York. Later, we found out exactly what he was doing there and who he was with.

So these kinds of columns and reports were pretty good in reporting what they were hearing on the streets. They didn't have the benefit of instant media reporting via TV or internet, obviously, so the information could be delayed several weeks between the event and having it published in these articles.

But they did report on Carl and the draft, and followed up on Vegetables' status as a possible single. That status seemed to only last a brief period.

Inside Pop was CBS News, if a particular station were outside the CBS network, they would be less likely to promote it. As Johnny Carson used to say "on another network...", because NBC wouldn't want their hosts promoting the competition.
GF - No one expect a clipping of everything.  Certainly not me.  But this arises out of pure frustration as to why there was this void.  Bernstein (or whomever) was very clever calling the program, Inside Pop instead of Inside Rock.  They softened the title, maybe to disarm the concept for parents.  And, the huge take-away was all those others who tuned in to see the other musicians such as Janis Ian, and,  who were not Brian Wilson, and who thought the Beach Boys were dorks, got a glimpse of the genius at the helm. 

CBS was huge.  And there was no internet to democratize on Youtube what happened on that program.  But, for that time, it was amazing. Everyone who loved music watched it because someone they liked was going to be featured. Ed Sullivan open the door to these musicians, and Bernstein walked right through it.

But there was a vacuum which if filled at the time, with TV appearances would have kept the momentum which the band had worked so hard to build, growing.  That is the tragedy.  It would have taken little to stop the spiral and made all the difference. I bet it would have made a difference to Brian Wilson to see his music performed on TV.

And, GF -  I appreciate your research.  But have had a long time to think about that dead "media" void, that was absolutely unnecessary and what might have changed it to promote the Pet Sounds' singles, reversing the non-action of Capitol as well as GV, which had been hugely successful.  Wink     

You commented on this publication not reporting on Carl's issues with the draft, and I came back and said they did, and would be happy to post that specific article.

The frustration for me is you're continually moving the goalposts. How can not reporting on Inside Pop in a music news column serve to discredit anything that column reported? Logic says it can't and it does not. Much like spelling errors, in the long term no one cares. So let's hypothetically throw these articles away too, discredit them because they didn't report on Inside Pop. They reported Carl's CO and draft issues, but for the sake of this thread let's hypothetically declare them sloppy and junk them.

What or who, then, is left as a credible source for information on this specific era? What or who has the credibility to have their word taken above everyone else?
GF - yes, maybe moving the goal posts and not getting comfortable in an information comfort zone is not a bad thing.  Not reporting Inside Pop is sacrilege for that era.  Bernstein drew the relationship as between classical styles and demonized rock music. Quelle surprise for a generation of parents who did not understand..  And you bet it matters. 

The political aspect matters because of the furor and inequity of the draft, which excused a person from service if he was enrolled in a "basket weaving" major (no offense to artful  basket weavers) to avoid the draft.  Had any e-college been available, Carl would have been excused from service by taking online courses. (which I strongly support as an educational model, having been involved since the 90's with that learning model.)   

And, I am not giving the industry a pass for not appropriately promoting my music.  My instincts told me that something was "rotten in Denmark" with this amazing music that was not broadcast on television.  And the objectifying of a woman musician who played on those sessions in a man's world.   Wink 
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« Reply #159 on: January 26, 2016, 06:12:04 AM »

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.


Yes. Yes he is.   Wink

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.

Well, he's certainly mixing up the "single version" with the Smiley version, as he's claiming he played water bottles on that version recorded when McC visited. Al's a great guy , but human memory is not like written in stone, it's been 50 years ago, and he's not a researcher and hairsplitter like us.

He may be, unless he did also play bottles in April. Did some of the April sessions end up in the Smiley version?

Still he would be putting both the April and June sessions as post-SMiLE, which I believe is true.  As I said, Taylor, reporting on these very sessions published April 22 (and in the following week's April 29 column), is warning that the album is not complete, there are delays because Brian has re-evaluated the music, and things have changed over the music.

Also, Marilyn has been quoted as saying regarding the purchase of the Bellagio house: "“I think the move may have had something to do with what happened to Smile. You know, new house, new things.”  Brian and Marilyn signed a Joint Tenancy Deed for the purchase of the Bellagio home on March 28, 1967 and the April 8 issue of New Music Express reported that "Brian Wilson transferred his crew from a rather small, newly built house to a 1937-built, two-storey Spanish mansion.” which probably would be info from April 4 to March 28 or earlier) . All of which I take as another evidence that SMiLE was in the past even as early as March 28 (or even earlier).

Also the SMiLE track was titled "Vega-Tables" with the probable master number of 56728. The April single and June Smiley versions have the non-SMiLE ("post-SMiLE") title of "Vegetables" beginning April 4 and have a different master number of 57450.



 
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« Reply #160 on: January 26, 2016, 06:14:29 AM »

I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up yet but I feel it's relevant to re-post this snippet from a Beach Boys gathering back in 2003. It seems as if Al, great as he is, does not quite know what constitutes a Smile song and what doesn't here.

Quote
UAM: OK, part 2. Um, were you aware that he’s planning on touring Smile next year? And what were your thoughts on that?

AJ: I heard about it, I think it’s crazy. [laughter]

Susan Lang: Well, good crazy or bad crazy, Al?

AJ: Well, not for good, I mean, why, [incredulously] how? I mean, I guess you could play snippets of it. Because it was never assembled, so, I mean, it’s an interesting idea but I think people are pushing Brian too hard. I mean, why in the world would he want to go back and do that, you know? Why not do something a little more progressive? I mean, if he wanted to do that he’d need the band to create… But his handlers, the people that make those decisions, they’ve forgotten origins I think of from whence that stuff came, you know? And it would require a great deal of imagination, I think, to call it a quote “SMiLE Tour” – I mean, that’s ridiculous, and who would relate to that? I mean, in this generation? What does that mean? I don’t know. I guess we would enjoy seeing it, but-

Dan Lega: I think there’s a lot of young people who do know about the SMiLE myth and are waiting to see it.

SD: He’s playing on the myth, though.

Alan Boyd: The legend looms large.

AJ: Does it really?

Peter Beyer (aka Catbirdman): I think a lot of people consider it Brian Wilson’s finest music – legitimately. Not for the myth, but for the music.

AJ: Well, yeah, but it’s not there.

DL: Well, there’s more there than we thought there was for so many years.

SD: No, there’s not. [laughter] There really isn’t – you mean to make up a whole concert? No.

SL: I don’t think he intended to make it the whole concert.

UAM: Probably about 30 minutes.

AB: No, I think it would be, my guess is it would be a segment within a larger show.

PB: Just like Pet Sounds.

UAM: It would be Vega-Tables and Wonderful and Cabin Essence…

AJ: Well, there you go.

AB: Probably like a half hour set within the show.

SD: It’s a clever name because it brings in the customers.

DL: They’re selling out like crazy over in the UK.

AJ: Uh, is Vegetables part of that album?

UAMs: Yeah, oh yeah. Mm-hm.

PB: Vega-Tables, Wonderful, Cabin Essence, Surf’s Up, Heroes & Villains.

AJ: Well, we re-recorded that stuff, and re-recorded it so much that [Al laughs] in a sense, you know, so many different projects, I suppose it could be assimilated into one CD, even. That might be something Capitol ought to do. And then he could go out and tour on that I guess. I guess you’re right. I keep thinking of all the stuff we didn’t finish but I guess you’re right. There is a lot of stuff there. I like Vegetables. I think Brian did a version of Vegetables which I prefer, the one with the tack piano and some of the more cutting edge stuff that we had been working on, as opposed to our version on Smiley Smile. And, for some reason, it just - You know, Steve, we had a great little medium, a little opportunity there to record, but it wasn’t edgy enough for me. I mean, we didn’t have that tack piano, and the Baldwin just seemed to, I don’t know, it just fills up too much space. Takes up too much space on tape, I think.

See: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10295.msg186226.html#msg186226
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Matt Bielewicz
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« Reply #161 on: January 26, 2016, 06:56:03 AM »

So to say: "Brian says Air was a piano piece, so what have we got on TSS that is a piano piece… it must be one of those... ah yes, the Wind Chimes tag!!!" is too simplistic, I think.

Jesus, man. This is Brian Wilson, not Franz Kafka.

Well, I don't know if you really read what I said. I'm not saying it's Kafka, and I'm not trying to over-complicate things. I'm just saying, there's *loads* of SMiLE-era stuff we know about which fits the one description Brian EVER gave of Air as 'a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals'. Just because the Wind Chimes tag happens to fit that description, really doesn't mean that must be Air. Lots of other stuff fits his description too. And that's before you even start to wonder whether

a) said piano piece was recorded, but was erased or subsequently lost, meaning most people have never heard it, or

b) said piano piece never even made it as far as tape in the first place, having been just an idea that Brian never got as far as recording.

Furthermore, there IS loads of evidence that, far from suggesting that the Wind Chimes tag was Air, in fact suggests that the Wind Chimes tag was, erm, well... the tag to Wind Chimes.

That's why I think saying 'Wind Chimes tag is piano - Brian says Air is a piano piece - therefore Wind Chimes tag is Air' is too simple.

Does that make any more sense...?

Es muss ja auch nicht ein Prozess werden...

PS For anyone round here who's still into Doctor Who, the reasoning reminds me of the Doctor talking to Davros at the end of Destiny of the Daleks: "All elephants are pink... Nellie is an elephant, therefore Nellie is pink"

If I remember rightly, that's not original Doctor Who dialogue, it's just lifted from a common way of exposing the poor reasoning of apparently logical thinking... which just happens to be complete gibberish, because it's based on a wonky first premise...
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 07:07:08 AM by Matt Bielewicz » Logged
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #162 on: January 26, 2016, 07:33:08 AM »

PS For anyone round here who's still into Doctor Who, the reasoning reminds me of the Doctor talking to Davros at the end of Destiny of the Daleks: "All elephants are pink... Nellie is an elephant, therefore Nellie is pink"

If I remember rightly, that's not original Doctor Who dialogue, it's just lifted from a common way of exposing the poor reasoning of apparently logical thinking... which just happens to be complete gibberish, because it's based on a wonky first premise...

Is that example worded correctly because the response that Nellie is pink makes perfect logical sense. What wouldn't make sense is the following: All elephants are pink, Nellie is pink, therefore Nellie is an elephant.
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« Reply #163 on: January 26, 2016, 07:59:40 AM »

puni puni - what little I know about the length of LPs has or had to do with the number of minutes during the 60ish era has to do, as best I understand it, is the diminution of quality as the length of grooves cut increases.  I read where Arthur Fiedler put an enormous amount of time on an LP, both sides.  

But, if you  have a bad stylus/bad record needle, or, a some scratches on it,  that would diminish the sound quality.  So, whether that became an industry standard is better discussed by someone knowledgeable than I.  But, if you have 45 minutes and the rough standard is around 15 minutes per side, what do you do with the extra side?

Nothing. Sgt. Pepper's... runs 39 minutes and change and there's neither a third side, nor a noticeable loss in quality. If the fabs could pull that off, I'm positive Brian could too. And If that extra two and a half minutes per side is too much for you to swallow, then I don't know what to tell you. Either Brian could have figured out something or, who knows? Maybe those four, pesky minutes were to blame the whole time. Smiley
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 08:10:16 AM by Phoenix » Logged
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« Reply #164 on: January 26, 2016, 08:04:53 AM »

PS For anyone round here who's still into Doctor Who, the reasoning reminds me of the Doctor talking to Davros at the end of Destiny of the Daleks: "All elephants are pink... Nellie is an elephant, therefore Nellie is pink"

If I remember rightly, that's not original Doctor Who dialogue, it's just lifted from a common way of exposing the poor reasoning of apparently logical thinking... which just happens to be complete gibberish, because it's based on a wonky first premise...

Is that example worded correctly because the response that Nellie is pink makes perfect logical sense. What wouldn't make sense is the following: All elephants are pink, Nellie is pink, therefore Nellie is an elephant.

Matt's quoting the episode correctly. As he says, it's complete gibberish, because the first premise is wrong. *NOT* all elephants are pink.


Doctor: All elephants are pink, Nellie is an elephant, therefore Nellie is pink. Logical?
Davros: Perfectly.
Doctor: You know what a human would say to that?
Davros: What?
Tyssan: Elephants aren't pink.
Davros: Humans do not understand logic.
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« Reply #165 on: January 26, 2016, 08:05:46 AM »

It's like Godwin's Law... once you start getting deeply into SMiLE, talk of pink elephants can't be far away!!!!

The Doctor Who quote is accurate (EDIT: Thanks Andrew, for the full transcript... mine's from memory)... but yes, I could have probably chosen a better analogy to Wind Chimes! It IS perfect logic... what it demonstrates is that logic doesn't tell you everything, because if your first premise is complete bobbins ('all elephants are pink') then no matter how watertight your logic, you still end up with a load of rubbish.

Chocolate Shake Man's version is indeed closer to the mistake that's being made here. ("Air is a piano piece. The Wind Chimes tag is a piano piece, therefore the Wind Chimes tag is Air")

On the other hand, you can recast the Doctor Who dialogue like this, which I think DOES then display the mistake that's being made here:

Brian Wilson wrote, conceived and recorded lots of music for an album that was going to be called SMiLE. The recordings he made were eventually released on a boxed set called The SMiLE Sessions. Therefore everything Brian planned is on that boxed set.

We KNOW that's rubbish because, as already noted, we know he had lots of plans for things that were either never recorded or (possibly) he did record and they were then erased or lost before The SMiLE Sessions was assembled. See, by way of just a couple of examples from a potentially VERY long list: the H&V bar fight, the talking in the pauses that was going to happen in 'All Day', the verse lyrics in Do You Like Worms, the strings in Part 2 of Surf's Up... and a proper assembled mix/edit of H&V that includes Barnyard and I'm In Great Shape (well... that example MAY have existed at some point, but if so, it didn't survive long enough to find its way out as a release on TSS).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 08:09:00 AM by Matt Bielewicz » Logged
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« Reply #166 on: January 26, 2016, 08:44:43 AM »

Removed my snarky comment in the spirit of the cooperation in this thread.  Shame on me.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 09:01:55 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #167 on: January 26, 2016, 09:09:36 AM »

there's *loads* of SMiLE-era stuff we know about which fits the one description Brian EVER gave of Air as 'a piano piece, an instrumental, no vocals'. Just because the Wind Chimes tag happens to fit that description, really doesn't mean that must be Air.

Off the top of my head, the instrumental piano pieces on Smile amount to the endings of "Do You Like Worms", "Holidays", and "Wind Chimes". Is Brian referring to something that was never recorded? He could be. Meanwhile, we have a song called "Wind Chimes" just laying around. How likely do you think it is that -- if and when Brian ever finishes Smile -- he'll use it for "Air"? I guess we'll never know for sure. Personally, on my Smile fan mix that I've been meticulously crafting for the last 35 years, I have "Air" set as "Little Deuce Coupe".
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« Reply #168 on: January 26, 2016, 10:12:19 AM »

Used to think there was some kind of Grand Design to Smile, like all the bits should fit to make this majestic Whole.

Gave that up and now just enjoy the bits as they are.

Smile in that respect does not disappoint.
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« Reply #169 on: January 26, 2016, 10:14:44 AM »

AJ: Well, not for good, I mean, why, [incredulously] how? I mean, I guess you could play snippets of it. Because it was never assembled, so, I mean, it’s an interesting idea but I think people are pushing Brian too hard. I mean, why in the world would he want to go back and do that, you know? Why not do something a little more progressive? I mean, if he wanted to do that he’d need the band to create… But his handlers, the people that make those decisions, they’ve forgotten origins I think of from whence that stuff came, you know? And it would require a great deal of imagination, I think, to call it a quote “SMiLE Tour” – I mean, that’s ridiculous, and who would relate to that? I mean, in this generation? What does that mean? I don’t know. I guess we would enjoy seeing it, but-

Hey, Al, you got any names for those handlers? Huh?
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« Reply #170 on: January 26, 2016, 10:42:51 AM »

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.


Yes. Yes he is.   Wink

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.

Well, he's certainly mixing up the "single version" with the Smiley version, as he's claiming he played water bottles on that version recorded when McC visited. Al's a great guy , but human memory is not like written in stone, it's been 50 years ago, and he's not a researcher and hairsplitter like us.

Agree… we're talking about a smashing guy but one who still misremembers the order of the lines in Wouldn't it Be Nice, after 50 years of singing it regularly!
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« Reply #171 on: January 26, 2016, 11:17:48 AM »

The Doctor Who quote is accurate (EDIT: Thanks Andrew, for the full transcript... mine's from memory)... but yes, I could have probably chosen a better analogy to Wind Chimes! It IS perfect logic... what it demonstrates is that logic doesn't tell you everything, because if your first premise is complete bobbins ('all elephants are pink') then no matter how watertight your logic, you still end up with a load of rubbish.

Gah - that's what I get for not paying close enough attention. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
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« Reply #172 on: January 26, 2016, 12:29:21 PM »

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.


Yes. Yes he is.   Wink

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.

Well, he's certainly mixing up the "single version" with the Smiley version, as he's claiming he played water bottles on that version recorded when McC visited. Al's a great guy , but human memory is not like written in stone, it's been 50 years ago, and he's not a researcher and hairsplitter like us.

Agree… we're talking about a smashing guy but one who still misremembers the order of the lines in Wouldn't it Be Nice, after 50 years of singing it regularly!

Right, but also a guy who has other evidence on his side on this one.  Smiley
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« Reply #173 on: January 26, 2016, 05:30:02 PM »

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.


Yes. Yes he is.   Wink

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.

Well, he's certainly mixing up the "single version" with the Smiley version, as he's claiming he played water bottles on that version recorded when McC visited. Al's a great guy , but human memory is not like written in stone, it's been 50 years ago, and he's not a researcher and hairsplitter like us.

He may be, unless he did also play bottles in April. Did some of the April sessions end up in the Smiley version?

Still he would be putting both the April and June sessions as post-SMiLE, which I believe is true.  As I said, Taylor, reporting on these very sessions published April 22 (and in the following week's April 29 column), is warning that the album is not complete, there are delays because Brian has re-evaluated the music, and things have changed over the music.

Also, Marilyn has been quoted as saying regarding the purchase of the Bellagio house: "“I think the move may have had something to do with what happened to Smile. You know, new house, new things.”  Brian and Marilyn signed a Joint Tenancy Deed for the purchase of the Bellagio home on March 28, 1967 and the April 8 issue of New Music Express reported that "Brian Wilson transferred his crew from a rather small, newly built house to a 1937-built, two-storey Spanish mansion.” which probably would be info from April 4 to March 28 or earlier) . All of which I take as another evidence that SMiLE was in the past even as early as March 28 (or even earlier).

Also the SMiLE track was titled "Vega-Tables" with the probable master number of 56728. The April single and June Smiley versions have the non-SMiLE ("post-SMiLE") title of "Vegetables" beginning April 4 and have a different master number of 57450.



 

Taylor is reporting that the album is still not complete and there are delays.  No kidding.  Nothing in what he said confirms that the Vegetable sessions are post Smile.  If anything it implies that Veggies is part of trying to complete the album.

New House, new things - yeah, after they moved into the new house, eventually Brian moved the recording studio into his house and Smile mutated into Smiley.  That in no way somehow suggests that on the actual move date, Smile was finished and now we were into post-Smile or Smiley.  That's a logical leap without any basis whatsoever.
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« Reply #174 on: January 26, 2016, 06:22:48 PM »

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.


Yes. Yes he is.   Wink

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.

Well, he's certainly mixing up the "single version" with the Smiley version, as he's claiming he played water bottles on that version recorded when McC visited. Al's a great guy , but human memory is not like written in stone, it's been 50 years ago, and he's not a researcher and hairsplitter like us.

He may be, unless he did also play bottles in April. Did some of the April sessions end up in the Smiley version?

Still he would be putting both the April and June sessions as post-SMiLE, which I believe is true.  As I said, Taylor, reporting on these very sessions published April 22 (and in the following week's April 29 column), is warning that the album is not complete, there are delays because Brian has re-evaluated the music, and things have changed over the music.

Also, Marilyn has been quoted as saying regarding the purchase of the Bellagio house: "“I think the move may have had something to do with what happened to Smile. You know, new house, new things.”  Brian and Marilyn signed a Joint Tenancy Deed for the purchase of the Bellagio home on March 28, 1967 and the April 8 issue of New Music Express reported that "Brian Wilson transferred his crew from a rather small, newly built house to a 1937-built, two-storey Spanish mansion.” which probably would be info from April 4 to March 28 or earlier) . All of which I take as another evidence that SMiLE was in the past even as early as March 28 (or even earlier).

Also the SMiLE track was titled "Vega-Tables" with the probable master number of 56728. The April single and June Smiley versions have the non-SMiLE ("post-SMiLE") title of "Vegetables" beginning April 4 and have a different master number of 57450.



 

Taylor is reporting that the album is still not complete and there are delays.  No kidding.  Nothing in what he said confirms that the Vegetable sessions are post Smile.  If anything it implies that Veggies is part of trying to complete the album.

New House, new things - yeah, after they moved into the new house, eventually Brian moved the recording studio into his house and Smile mutated into Smiley.  That in no way somehow suggests that on the actual move date, Smile was finished and now we were into post-Smile or Smiley.  That's a logical leap without any basis whatsoever.

Yeah, no kidding. It all together forms a context.
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