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Author Topic: Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?  (Read 118828 times)
The_Holy_Bee
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« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2016, 06:05:19 PM »

Hi Cam, I wrote a full reply to you earlier, but enragingly my laptop decided to have a major hissy fit just as I was about to click 'Post'!

You're absolutely right, of course, about 'The Elements' suite being identified as a standalone track in these articles. My main objective in the post above was to make a case that if indeed Brian said he was 'working' on 'The Elements' in March/April (and I don't know that he did - I'm relying on Bicycle Rider's paraphrasing of that statement) then he was unlikely to be referring to the 'Love to Say Dada' remake, as that track didn't have work resumed on it until mid-May. (Of course, there may be lost tapes/logs, or he may been writing as opposed to recording, but I'm operating on the data we do have.)

The only titles (apart from a couple of 'Heroes' sessions right at the beginning of March) under which work seems to have been done over those eight weeks were 'Vegetables' and 'Wonderful', plus the brief 'Child of the Man' keys-and-verse section logged, I believe, as 'Nothing #1' and located in a 'Tune X' tape box. Where I may have stretched (or lost!) my original point is the contention that if Brian did consider himself to be 'working on The Elements' - at least in the studio - during this period, then of these three known titles, it seems most likely he's referring to (some of?) the various 'Vegetables' sections recorded in April.

Perhaps tracked under this title - as there seems to be grounds to believe Veggies was a part of the 'suite' six months earlier - there was also some material Brian was considering for a stand-alone 'Elements' track? I have no particular grounds for this suggestion, just throwing it out there as a possibility.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 07:57:59 PM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2016, 06:10:57 PM »

Quote
That may be the one, I'll have to look tomorrow.  Brian says in effect all the 12 tracks for Smile are finished except for one he's having trouble with, The elements.  Based on where it appears in LLVS it appears to date to April, when he was working on Vegetables or shortly thereafter.  So if he was worried about Elements, and needed to work on it, and the next session is Dada, it's kind of suggestive but certainly not proof of anything.

Thanks, BR. And yeah, I don't deny it's possible - my argument depends largely on just when the article/interview date from. If Brian made that comment in late April, it's not too much of a stretch to think he might have 'Dada' in mind when talking about ongoing work on 'The Elements'. If late March/early April, though, my view is that it'd be less likely for Brian to be referring to a remake attempt on a previous 'Heroes' section still six weeks away. Hopefully there're a few contextual clues in the article itself.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 06:14:42 PM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
Cam Mott
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« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2016, 07:47:20 PM »

That's what I've been saying too, I even linked a video as proof.

That's right, I don't think the ability or inability to move a grand piano is enough to rule out the possibility entirely.

It has been pointed out to me that Western 3 is the specific room.  Because Western could get grands into the building and other rooms doesn't mean they could be gotten into Western 3.  It has been suggested that it is a distinct possibility that one couldn't from someone who has been in the studio decades ago. Maybe the floorplan did prevent it.  Anyway, it may not be a definite slam dunk for 3. Maybe we do need a 1966 measured floor plan and some piano dimensions.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2016, 07:57:57 PM »

Well I don't know how different it is today but:

http://www.eastweststudios.com/studio3/#floorplan

One of the site photos shows a grand piano in Studio 3.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 08:49:40 PM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2016, 06:37:36 AM »

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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2016, 07:14:32 AM »






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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2016, 07:22:25 AM »

Well I don't know how different it is today but:

http://www.eastweststudios.com/studio3/#floorplan

One of the site photos shows a grand piano in Studio 3.
Thanks Cam for that link.  Just watched the well-done historic background video contained within.

And to GF for the stills.   Wink
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« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2016, 07:27:56 AM »

Cam, I would say photos of a grand piano in the current Western #3 and a photo of Brian sitting at one in Studio 3 during a GV session in 1966 are more than enough evidence at this point...surely more than enough to say the ability or inability to move (and have) a grand piano in Western 3 is not enough to dismiss the possibility entirely.

The photos tell the real story. Who was suggesting there was no way a grand piano would fit into Western 3?

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Cam Mott
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« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2016, 07:45:13 AM »

Cam, I would say photos of a grand piano in the current Western #3 and a photo of Brian sitting at one in Studio 3 during a GV session in 1966 are more than enough evidence at this point...surely more than enough to say the ability or inability to move (and have) a grand piano in Western 3 is not enough to dismiss the possibility entirely.

The photos tell the real story. Who was suggesting there was no way a grand piano would fit into Western 3?



There we go.

Brad Elliott.
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« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2016, 02:11:10 PM »

Was Country Air the Air section then? It's more likely than Wind Chimes though!
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« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2016, 02:38:29 PM »

Was Country Air the Air section then? It's more likely than Wind Chimes though!

My thought is that if Country Air was/or related to "Air" it probably would've at least shown up on the working list of SMiLE contenders in 2003. That said, there is "The Elements" on there. Anyone confirm whether or not the list is legitimate?

Do You Like Worms
Prayer
Time To Get Alone
Bicycle Rider
Diamond Head
Holidays
Song For The Children
Fall Breaks And Back To Winter
I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night
Wind Chimes
Heroes And Villians
Surf's Up
Good Vibrations
Cabin Essence
Wonderful
I'm In Great Shape
Child Is Father Of The Man
The Elements
Vega-Tables
The Old Master Painter

Taken from this thread: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,6748.msg108239.html#msg108239 (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,6748.msg108239.html#msg108239)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 02:53:53 PM by zosobird » Logged
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« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2016, 03:26:05 PM »

I believe this list to have been genuine but also that it was simply a list drawn up by Darian (or A N Other) of Smile tracks and tracks of suspected Smile origins/associations, that was to be out to Brian so that he could give a quick "yes" or "no" to each to indicate their validity as Smile inclusions - hence the inclusion of Fall Breaks…, Diamond Head, and Time to Get Alone.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2016, 07:52:50 PM »

Cam, I would say photos of a grand piano in the current Western #3 and a photo of Brian sitting at one in Studio 3 during a GV session in 1966 are more than enough evidence at this point...surely more than enough to say the ability or inability to move (and have) a grand piano in Western 3 is not enough to dismiss the possibility entirely.

The photos tell the real story. Who was suggesting there was no way a grand piano would fit into Western 3?



There we go.

Brad Elliott.

Turns out I am wrong about it being Brad Elliott. 

I will have to go back in time and search the Wheeler board and Annie board and Jon & John board and Usenet and PSML for the culprit. I'll be back to the future if I find it.
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« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2016, 07:55:14 PM »

Quote
That may be the one, I'll have to look tomorrow.  Brian says in effect all the 12 tracks for Smile are finished except for one he's having trouble with, The elements.  Based on where it appears in LLVS it appears to date to April, when he was working on Vegetables or shortly thereafter.  So if he was worried about Elements, and needed to work on it, and the next session is Dada, it's kind of suggestive but certainly not proof of anything.

Thanks, BR. And yeah, I don't deny it's possible - my argument depends largely on just when the article/interview date from. If Brian made that comment in late April, it's not too much of a stretch to think he might have 'Dada' in mind when talking about ongoing work on 'The Elements'. If late March/early April, though, my view is that it'd be less likely for Brian to be referring to a remake attempt on a previous 'Heroes' section still six weeks away. Hopefully there're a few contextual clues in the article itself.

I'm at home looking through LLVS and having trouble finding the quote.  LLVS is pretty maddening, quotes from articles from Feb, March, April and July 67 all on the same page, many short news items have no date at all . . . I think I remember it's the quote where Brian talks about doing a candle instead of fire?  where the hell is that quote?  There's one from March that talks about the fires and Brian having trouble with The Elements because of that, but it doesn't say the other tracks are finished.  Oh well, I'll find it eventually.
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« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2016, 08:13:00 PM »

Quote
That may be the one, I'll have to look tomorrow.  Brian says in effect all the 12 tracks for Smile are finished except for one he's having trouble with, The elements.  Based on where it appears in LLVS it appears to date to April, when he was working on Vegetables or shortly thereafter.  So if he was worried about Elements, and needed to work on it, and the next session is Dada, it's kind of suggestive but certainly not proof of anything.

Thanks, BR. And yeah, I don't deny it's possible - my argument depends largely on just when the article/interview date from. If Brian made that comment in late April, it's not too much of a stretch to think he might have 'Dada' in mind when talking about ongoing work on 'The Elements'. If late March/early April, though, my view is that it'd be less likely for Brian to be referring to a remake attempt on a previous 'Heroes' section still six weeks away. Hopefully there're a few contextual clues in the article itself.

I'm at home looking through LLVS and having trouble finding the quote.  LLVS is pretty maddening, quotes from articles from Feb, March, April and July 67 all on the same page, many short news items have no date at all . . . I think I remember it's the quote where Brian talks about doing a candle instead of fire?  where the hell is that quote?  There's one from March that talks about the fires and Brian having trouble with The Elements because of that, but it doesn't say the other tracks are finished.  Oh well, I'll find it eventually.

There's the Siegel article:

“A few days after the record was finished , a building across the street from the studio burned down and, according to Brian, there was also an unusually large number of fires in Los Angeles. Afraid that his music might in fact turn out to be magic fire music, Wilson destroyed the master.
“I don’t have to do a big scary fire like that. I can do a candle and it’s still a fire. That would have been a really bad vibration to let out on the world, that Chicago fire. The next one is going to be a candle.” ….One with psychiatric inclinations would hear all this stuff about someone who actually believed music could cause fires and start using words like neurosis and maybe psychosis. A true student of spoken hip, however, would say hang-up, which covers all of the above.
As far as Brian’s pretentions toward hipness are concerned, no label could do him more harm,,, In case, whatever his talent, Brian Wilson’s attempt to win a hip following and reputation foundered for many months in an obsessive cycle of creation and destruction that threatened not only his career and his future but also his marriage, his friendships, his relationship with the Beach Boys and, some of his closet friends worried, his mind.“
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« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2016, 09:29:42 PM »

Take it for what it's worth, but the 1967 Surf's Up was found on a reel containing "Country Air"

Mark Linett: "In fact, on this set, we were transferring reels for the Wild Honey album late last year and completely unmarked on the session reel for a song called “Country Air” discovered Brian doing four or five takes of “Surf’s  Up” – just him at the piano from late ’67.  So, we included that on the box.  No explanation for why he did that and it was never taken any farther.  Although I don’t think the intention was to take it any farther because it’s just him singing live and playing piano."


Is any of this available anywhere? By box does he mean box set?
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« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2016, 11:18:55 PM »

Quote
Mark Linett: "In fact, on this set, we were transferring reels for the Wild Honey album late last year and completely unmarked on the session reel for a song called “Country Air” discovered Brian doing four or five takes of “Surf’s  Up” – just him at the piano from late ’67.  So, we included that on the box.  No explanation for why he did that and it was never taken any farther.  Although I don’t think the intention was to take it any farther because it’s just him singing live and playing piano."

Yep, on TSS. The track itself appears to be a composite made up from a couple (at least) different takes, according to some expert ears here who say they can hear edit points. Which isn't me being sarcastic - my ears are far short of expert, and I believe I can hear 'em too. Linnet's quote above about putting 'that' (meaning the 'four or five takes' described immediately prior) on the box set would seem to suggest this too.
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« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2016, 11:51:07 PM »

- Fire was Mrs. O' Leary's Fire (duh)

- Water (in 1966, at least) was water sounds that the Vosse Posse recorded on their Nagra reels

- Earth (pre-December 1966) was Vega-Tables. This is due to the revealing Van Dyke Parks quotations, and Frank Holmes drawings.

- Air was a piano cut(?)

I think many have raised the issue about a similiar Wind Chimes piano cut that was never fully realised by Brian. If so, could this be the mythical Air piece everyone is searching for? I don't think so at all.... Couldn't it have been much easier for Brian (and all of us) to say that "Wind Chimes" was "Air" in 1978 and get it over with? Why the vague "piano cut" description? But then again, maybe in August 1966, Brian and Van Dyke dreamed of a SMiLE with Wind Chimes fulfilling the "Air" piece, but moved on from that idea due to it's single potential.... Similarly with Veggies. Who knows? 

I wish I could find it, but years ago Brian had a Q&A on his webpage, and I asked him what was Earth, Fire, Water, and Air, and he answered it, but it was just a kind of off the top of his head B.S. answer.  It was still really cool for him to stipulate something, though... there's probably a copy of it here on the forum somewhere because I mentioned it before, but he basically mentioned 1 song for each element and I can't remember which was which but one didn't even make any sense.  i'm sure he was just saying whatever, but it was still fascinating to me...
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« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2016, 12:12:52 AM »

Feel I should point out that in my original post in this thread, I didn't state that there could be no grand, nor an eight track in the studio, rather that it was hugely unlikely that they were Brian's own as reported.
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« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2016, 03:13:30 AM »

[
I wish I could find it, but years ago Brian had a Q&A on his webpage, and I asked him what was Earth, Fire, Water, and Air, and he answered it, but it was just a kind of off the top of his head B.S. answer.  It was still really cool for him to stipulate something, though... there's probably a copy of it here on the forum somewhere because I mentioned it before, but he basically mentioned 1 song for each element and I can't remember which was which but one didn't even make any sense.  i'm sure he was just saying whatever, but it was still fascinating to me...
[/quote]

I can't find the source, but I'm sure this can be found on this board somewhere, anyway it was:
MOCW - Fire
Prayer - Air
HV - Earth
Surf's up - Water!
This is very good..each song really represents one elemnent! Will try that in a mix!
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« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2016, 05:35:59 AM »

Quote
That may be the one, I'll have to look tomorrow.  Brian says in effect all the 12 tracks for Smile are finished except for one he's having trouble with, The elements.  Based on where it appears in LLVS it appears to date to April, when he was working on Vegetables or shortly thereafter.  So if he was worried about Elements, and needed to work on it, and the next session is Dada, it's kind of suggestive but certainly not proof of anything.

Thanks, BR. And yeah, I don't deny it's possible - my argument depends largely on just when the article/interview date from. If Brian made that comment in late April, it's not too much of a stretch to think he might have 'Dada' in mind when talking about ongoing work on 'The Elements'. If late March/early April, though, my view is that it'd be less likely for Brian to be referring to a remake attempt on a previous 'Heroes' section still six weeks away. Hopefully there're a few contextual clues in the article itself.

I'm at home looking through LLVS and having trouble finding the quote.  LLVS is pretty maddening, quotes from articles from Feb, March, April and July 67 all on the same page, many short news items have no date at all . . . I think I remember it's the quote where Brian talks about doing a candle instead of fire?  where the hell is that quote?  There's one from March that talks about the fires and Brian having trouble with The Elements because of that, but it doesn't say the other tracks are finished.  Oh well, I'll find it eventually.

There's the Siegel article:

“A few days after the record was finished , a building across the street from the studio burned down and, according to Brian, there was also an unusually large number of fires in Los Angeles. Afraid that his music might in fact turn out to be magic fire music, Wilson destroyed the master.
“I don’t have to do a big scary fire like that. I can do a candle and it’s still a fire. That would have been a really bad vibration to let out on the world, that Chicago fire. The next one is going to be a candle.” ….One with psychiatric inclinations would hear all this stuff about someone who actually believed music could cause fires and start using words like neurosis and maybe psychosis. A true student of spoken hip, however, would say hang-up, which covers all of the above.
As far as Brian’s pretentions toward hipness are concerned, no label could do him more harm,,, In case, whatever his talent, Brian Wilson’s attempt to win a hip following and reputation foundered for many months in an obsessive cycle of creation and destruction that threatened not only his career and his future but also his marriage, his friendships, his relationship with the Beach Boys and, some of his closet friends worried, his mind.“

Yeah, that's not the quote I'm thinking of . . . I will find it, I will find it, I WILL FIND IT . . . .
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« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2016, 02:00:45 PM »

[
I wish I could find it, but years ago Brian had a Q&A on his webpage, and I asked him what was Earth, Fire, Water, and Air, and he answered it, but it was just a kind of off the top of his head B.S. answer.  It was still really cool for him to stipulate something, though... there's probably a copy of it here on the forum somewhere because I mentioned it before, but he basically mentioned 1 song for each element and I can't remember which was which but one didn't even make any sense.  i'm sure he was just saying whatever, but it was still fascinating to me...

I can't find the source, but I'm sure this can be found on this board somewhere, anyway it was:
MOCW - Fire
Prayer - Air
HV - Earth
Surf's up - Water!
This is very good..each song really represents one elemnent! Will try that in a mix!
[/quote]

Well.... that's intriguing.... Makes a lot more sense than half complete or nonexistent piano excerpts though....
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« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2016, 02:21:29 PM »

I admire and appreciate your dedication to tracking this down, Bicycle Rider!
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« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2016, 11:17:23 AM »

[
I wish I could find it, but years ago Brian had a Q&A on his webpage, and I asked him what was Earth, Fire, Water, and Air, and he answered it, but it was just a kind of off the top of his head B.S. answer.  It was still really cool for him to stipulate something, though... there's probably a copy of it here on the forum somewhere because I mentioned it before, but he basically mentioned 1 song for each element and I can't remember which was which but one didn't even make any sense.  i'm sure he was just saying whatever, but it was still fascinating to me...

I can't find the source, but I'm sure this can be found on this board somewhere, anyway it was:
MOCW - Fire
Prayer - Air
HV - Earth
Surf's up - Water!
This is very good..each song really represents one elemnent! Will try that in a mix!
[/quote]


Thank you, I  tried to find it the other day and couldn't track it down.  That's really interesting, huh?  Of course I immediately think that's just Brian running something off the top of his head, but.... what if it isn't? 
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« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2016, 11:42:51 AM »

Quote
That may be the one, I'll have to look tomorrow.  Brian says in effect all the 12 tracks for Smile are finished except for one he's having trouble with, The elements.  Based on where it appears in LLVS it appears to date to April, when he was working on Vegetables or shortly thereafter.  So if he was worried about Elements, and needed to work on it, and the next session is Dada, it's kind of suggestive but certainly not proof of anything.

Thanks, BR. And yeah, I don't deny it's possible - my argument depends largely on just when the article/interview date from. If Brian made that comment in late April, it's not too much of a stretch to think he might have 'Dada' in mind when talking about ongoing work on 'The Elements'. If late March/early April, though, my view is that it'd be less likely for Brian to be referring to a remake attempt on a previous 'Heroes' section still six weeks away. Hopefully there're a few contextual clues in the article itself.

I'm at home looking through LLVS and having trouble finding the quote.  LLVS is pretty maddening, quotes from articles from Feb, March, April and July 67 all on the same page, many short news items have no date at all . . . I think I remember it's the quote where Brian talks about doing a candle instead of fire?  where the hell is that quote?  There's one from March that talks about the fires and Brian having trouble with The Elements because of that, but it doesn't say the other tracks are finished.  Oh well, I'll find it eventually.

There's the Siegel article:

“A few days after the record was finished , a building across the street from the studio burned down and, according to Brian, there was also an unusually large number of fires in Los Angeles. Afraid that his music might in fact turn out to be magic fire music, Wilson destroyed the master.
“I don’t have to do a big scary fire like that. I can do a candle and it’s still a fire. That would have been a really bad vibration to let out on the world, that Chicago fire. The next one is going to be a candle.” ….One with psychiatric inclinations would hear all this stuff about someone who actually believed music could cause fires and start using words like neurosis and maybe psychosis. A true student of spoken hip, however, would say hang-up, which covers all of the above.
As far as Brian’s pretentions toward hipness are concerned, no label could do him more harm,,, In case, whatever his talent, Brian Wilson’s attempt to win a hip following and reputation foundered for many months in an obsessive cycle of creation and destruction that threatened not only his career and his future but also his marriage, his friendships, his relationship with the Beach Boys and, some of his closet friends worried, his mind.“

The story of Smile as foretold on Pet Sounds: "I went through all kinds of changes, took a look at myself and said "That's not me".
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