Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[yonderhillside]

The story of Smile as foretold on Pet Sounds: "I went through all kinds of changes, took a look at myself and said "That's not me".

A+

[rasmus skotte]

Or to quote D Cunningham:

>Yon "AIR"... Brian! OY!<

[Mitchell]

[
I wish I could find it, but years ago Brian had a Q&A on his webpage, and I asked him what was Earth, Fire, Water, and Air, and he answered it, but it was just a kind of off the top of his head B.S. answer.  It was still really cool for him to stipulate something, though... there's probably a copy of it here on the forum somewhere because I mentioned it before, but he basically mentioned 1 song for each element and I can't remember which was which but one didn't even make any sense.  i'm sure he was just saying whatever, but it was still fascinating to me...

I can't find the source, but I'm sure this can be found on this board somewhere, anyway it was:
MOCW - Fire
Prayer - Air
HV - Earth
Surf's up - Water!
This is very good..each song really represents one elemnent! Will try that in a mix!


Thank you, I  tried to find it the other day and couldn't track it down.  That's really interesting, huh?  Of course I immediately think that's just Brian running something off the top of his head, but.... what if it isn't?  

I'm glad you brought this up. I think it may be worth further thought. If you subscribe to this then you can dispense with the notion that there was an unfinished mythical "Elements Suite" out there.  The important thing is that the Elemental themes came through... And since Fire was the only one tracked as such then that's what made the hand-written track list.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit but this old post from Brian definitely came to mind as I was reading through the thread.

[Cam Mott]

IMO, these late interviews describing The Elements as a track that is itself a suite or four parts (along with Fire being logged as a "part 1") at the time Brian was also reportedly trying to finish the track while listing the track separately along side the usual suspect individual tracks also listed separately argues pretty convincingly against The Elements ultimately being a multi-track concept back in the day of its creation.

[Bicyclerider]

The Elements was a theme that reoccurred throughout the album, "nature" more than just the four elements really, just like the other three major themes,  childhood/innocence, spirituality, and Americana/history.  So that theme is still represented even with the Elements suite remaining unfinished.  But as Cam points out Brian makes it clear in the spring 67 interviews that the suite was to be composed of four parts and it was unfinished, not that he had decided to restrict it to one element and let other tracks do the job of the other three parts.

[Andrew G. Doe]

IMO, these late interviews describing The Elements as a track that is itself a suite or four parts (along with Fire being logged as a "part 1") at the time Brian was also reportedly trying to finish the track while listing the track separately along side the usual suspect individual tracks also listed separately argues pretty convincingly against The Elements ultimately being a multi-track concept back in the day of its creation.

Not to mention what VDP told me back in the early years of this Millennium. I put the then current Smile-as-double-album notion to him, and, to redact his lapidary response to plain English, he said no, the gameplan he was working to was a single album of 10-12 tracks, individually banded with no crossfades or segues at all except internally in one track, which he named as "The Elements". So. There you have it.

[Mitchell]

I'm not disputing that (and I've not read all the evidence in a long time) but its more that, like many ideas (and Smile itself), perhaps what started as one thing ended up as another.

On that note, and going in a different direction, I feel that Fall Breaks, as one track, could almost be The Elements suite (has Fire, Earth and Air sounds in it). My opinion is not important but it's all interesting to think about.

[guitarfool2002]

Keep in mind a recent discussion about Peter Brown who reported in the early 80's (before most of the speculation and bootlegs and internet chats and whatnot) that when Paul McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and dropped in on Brian working in the studio, the title Brown gave as what Brian had been working on was "The Four Elements Suite". And we know the day Paul dropped in, Brian had Al cutting a vocal for Vegetables, that was it.

Suite is the key word.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I'm not disputing that (and I've not read all the evidence in a long time) but its more that, like many ideas (and Smile itself), perhaps what started as one thing ended up as another.

On that note, and going in a different direction, I feel that Fall Breaks, as one track, could almost be The Elements suite (has Fire, Earth and Air sounds in it). My opinion is not important but it's all interesting to think about.

The joy of Smile: that which began as part of this track could easily become a different part of that track, or possibly become a track on its own.

[guitarfool2002]

November 1966 Brian had his friends in the studio chanting about vegetables, trying to create underwater sounds, and recording variations based on breathing sounds, aka "air" sounds. Three out of four elements themes in November 1966 getting put onto tape somehow ain't nothing to sneeze at. To me, just as valid as a snapshot of what could have been on the table at that given time as other 'evidence' that may or may not have been anything more than what existed that week as a possibility.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Keep in mind a recent discussion about Peter Brown who reported in the early 80's (before most of the speculation and bootlegs and internet chats and whatnot) that when Paul McCartney visited the US in April 1967 and dropped in on Brian working in the studio, the title Brown gave as what Brian had been working on was "The Four Elements Suite". And we know the day Paul dropped in, Brian had Al cutting a vocal for Vegetables, that was it.

Suite is the key word.

On 4/10/67, vocals were also recorded for "Wonderful ['version 3']" and "Child Is Father To The Man ['version 3']", at Sound Recorders. Brian had been working on the vocals for"Vega-Tables" at Sound Recorders (and Columbia) for four straight days before the Macca session (April 4th-7th) and would continue to do so for the next five days. Obsessive much ?

[guitarfool2002]

The exact day Paul was there was a Vegetables session with Al, so if he went back (or if Paul's traveling companion Mal Evans) and told Brown he saw Brian working on "The Four Elements Suite" and it was Vegetables, it's pretty strong circumstantial evidence that Paul or Mal had been told what they were dropping in on and watching that day. If it were just Vegetables as a standalone song or even a single, Brown would have said "Vegetables" I'd think. Brown was very specific in that title.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The exact day Paul was there was a Vegetables session with Al, so if he went back (or if Paul's traveling companion Mal Evans) and told Brown he saw Brian working on "The Four Elements Suite" and it was Vegetables, it's pretty strong circumstantial evidence that Paul or Mal had been told what they were dropping in on and watching that day. If it were just Vegetables as a standalone song or even a single, Brown would have said "Vegetables" I'd think. Brown was very specific in that title.

Again, vocals for two other tracks were also recorded at that session, so Brown could have been referring any one of three songs. Or all three. Or, given the passage of some fifteen odd years, none of them if Brown was misremembering. My point, laboured as it might be, is that the session Paul dropped in at wasn't exclusively for "Vega-Tables".

[guitarfool2002]

Al says he was in the vocal booth waiting to do takes as Brian and Paul were talking, forgetting about both the time and apparently that Al was in the booth to cut a vocal. We know Al took the lead vocal on Vegetables which explains why he was the only one at the mic as Paul and Brian hung out, his contributions to the others vocally were much, much less.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Can't help you, Sundance...

[guitarfool2002]

The fact that Al was in the vocal booth recording vocals for Vegetables when McCartney dropped in is and has been confirmed for years, Al was the only one recording when McCartney showed up. McCartney also left, and later hooked up with Brian and John Phillips to hang out and jam.

Was Al not right in what he said about that session? Or McCartney for that matter? No mention, ever, of Paul meeting with other band members that day. He was in and out as Al was in the vocal booth, then he and Brian hung out later. No mention of other band members.

EDIT: Crossed out the bad info. The rest stands.

[guitarfool2002]

My bad...here is the interview, Al does say Carl and Dennis were there too...listening to McCartney's new song while Al was in the booth waiting to record Vegetables.

Excerpt:

JM: Going back to Smile, when you were recording “Vegetables”, I understand that Paul McCartney showed up. So Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson are sitting there. What was going through your mind when you have two of the greatest songwriters ever listening to you sing?

AJ: Well, actually Paul took over the production on that particular song. It was pretty late, and I was really anxious to get home because we had to go out and tour the next morning. So my memory of it is exasperation that Brian and Paul couldn’t seem to get on with the song, so I said a couple of probably nasty words. [In annoyed voice] “Can we get this thing over with, please? We have to get up and go to work tomorrow.” Like that [laughs]. Oh, I remember what I did Mary Ann – I’m talking to my wife. I whistled really loud into the microphone. And I can really whistle, ask anybody. I can bring the dogs in from the hill. And both of them just stopped and jerked and looked up at me. They were just… you can only imagine the two of them talking about music. And they’re not going on tour. They’re both hanging out in L.A., and the rest of us have to do a 25, 30 day tour. So anyway, oh man, I got their attention [laughs], then Paul took over.

Then he played us a song at the piano, which I missed because I was listening to the play back. You know, I wanted to make sure I got my lead right. So he and Brian are out at the piano with Carl and Dennis. It was “A Day in the Life”. So I came out and I said, “Hey, can you play it again?” And by that time Paul was gone. I must’ve been wonderful to hear, but I had my “Vegetables” song. And that was not the one they did on Smile. That was a post-Smile production. Or maybe that was a single, I don’t know. Maybe that was the flip-side of “Heroes and Villains”. I’ll have to go check the single. By the way, I played the water bottles on that, or soft drink bottles. I filled them up at different levels to get a perfect triad. [Sings] Da-da-da.

Link to full interview with Al, 2014:
http://music-illuminati.com/interview-al-jardine/

[guitarfool2002]

I'll go with what Al said.

[Cam Mott]

What tour did Al leave for the next morning?

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

[Andrew G. Doe]

What tour did Al leave for the next morning?

http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs67.html

[Cam Mott]

What tour did Al leave for the next morning?

http://www.esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs67.html

Ah, I see they left on the 11th for the date on the 14th with no vocals sessions between.

If it were a post-SMiLE session wouldn't that argue against it being a SMiLE session toward The Elements?  Or did I misunderstand again?

[zosobird]

What tour did Al leave for the next morning?

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

This really, really stands out to me.

Think about the RE-recording of Vega-tables AND Wonderful AND Child is Father of the Man...VT with it's significantly simplified instrumentation compared to the rest of the SMiLE tracks, it was also just the BB's on those sessions (sans the tag), right? It was that simplified production technique that led towards Smiley Smile. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Ah, I see they left on the 11th for the date on the 14th with no vocals sessions between.

Ummm... Cam ?

11 - Smile session: Tones (Part #3) [Western] (x)
11 - Smile session: Vega-Tables ['chorus 1' and '2nd chorus' vocals - Sound Recorders]

12 - Smile session: Vega-Tables ['insert part 4' (SR) and 'fade part 4' GS): 2 sessions - Gold Star & Sound Recorders]

13 - Smile session: Vega-Tables [vocals - Sound Recorders] [BW]
13 - Smile session: Vega-Tables [cancelled] [Western]
13 - Mississippi State University, Starkville MS

Note that the vocal session on the 13th is for Brian alone (of course) indicating that the 11th date was most likely a band session (they would have flown out on the 12th).

By the end of April, there were reports in the UK music press that "Vegetables" would be the new single, not "H&V", which would explain both the frenzied work on said song, and the LA Farmer's Market  photoshoot. I feel the evidence listed here against the 4/10 session being for "The Elements" is much stronger than a 15-year-old second hand recollection. This is, of course, merely my notion and not to be taken - or presented - as irrefutable.

[The Shift]

So Al was a little confused as to when they were departing for the tour? He blew Macca out because he got his diary dates a little muddled?

[Andrew G. Doe]

There are also people who recall the song that Macca played was "She's Leaving Home", which would make more sense than "ADITL", being both a song of his, and somewhat easier to preview on a piano. Again, pick your source.