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Author Topic: Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?  (Read 118545 times)
The_Holy_Bee
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« Reply #700 on: February 07, 2016, 08:29:30 PM »

Quote
The Old Master Painter:
According to me, SMiLE was more complete in 1966 than in 1967.

With certain qualifications, I agree with this. At least I suspect that it was not significantly less complete in 1966 than mid-67. Certainly conceptually speaking.
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« Reply #701 on: February 07, 2016, 08:36:39 PM »

We've covered this topic many times and as has been brought up before it was also Brian's issues.  As we've discussed he'd become a fanatical perfectionist so smiley smiles looseness has to strike one as Brian kind of just giving up control to a degree.  Also he was bred to be a fanatical competitor so a single that hit 15 and an album that didn't do well just combined to send him into a real funk.  He came back for friends and again for sunflower to a degree but I think he came to view the beach boys as a failure by his impossible standards. He sure takes that point of view in his 1973 interviews on radio and in print. The beach boys weren't a big success on the charts and to Brian that was crucial

I've been following and have been aware of most Smile related "stuff" for 25 years or so, and I have seen little or no attention paid to June 1967 and the reasons how the band ended up in Brian's living room, apart from generalizations or theories painted with a broad brush. I've also seen theories about why they pulled out of Monterey that ranged from they just pulled out with no notice, Brian was concerned with getting the new album out, the pressures on Carl over the draft issues combined with pressure to release a single and an album would be too much of a distraction, to Stephen Desper recalling Mike had an objection with Coca Cola being a sponsor of the Montetery festival.

So there are still areas to explore. If it means revisiting some theories that may seem like old news, maybe looking at them anew isn;t such a bad thing. I'm certainly enjoying going over everything. And it's far better than some of the outright red herrings or whitewashing that has also crept into the dialogue even since the 2000's.

As far as Brian being a competitor: "As we've discussed he'd become a fanatical perfectionist so smiley smiles looseness has to strike one as Brian kind of just giving up control to a degree.  Also he was bred to be a fanatical competitor so a single that hit 15 and an album that didn't do well just combined to send him into a real funk.

That wouldn't seem relevant to the decisions made in June 67 that changed the entire scope of both the band and their recording methods and schedule. Heroes wasn't even out yet, so the band's single of record for the US was still the #1 smash Good Vibrations. The Beach Boys into 1967 were still Capitol's top selling US group on the label. Brian was still winning polls awards in various countries and markets for top producer on the strength of Good Vibrations, the band had just been presented with the NME award in May for topping the Beatles in the poll.

Brian was just on Inside Pop the third week of April doing Surf's Up, and that program was so talked-about that I even saw an article saying they were considering releasing a soundtrack from the program. Janis Ian got one of the most unlikely radio hits of '67 directly from that program, and Brian's performance near the end was one of the highlights. The industry buzz was still there.

If Heroes had not yet been released, and if Smiley Smile had not yet been recorded, then Good Vibrations was still the most recent single - there would be nothing to connect sending Brian into a funk relative to an under-performing release as of June 1967 when the whole ballgame changed almost in a few weeks' time while GV was still their latest release, and it was a #1 hit. If we're talking August or September, after Heroes didn't go top-5 and after Smiley stalled out, then a better case could be made. But the group didn't even have the revised single ready to present until July.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #702 on: February 07, 2016, 08:49:27 PM »

From January to May 1967, the Brian recorded at Columbia, Western, Sound Recorders and Gold Star a total of 49 times, with a further five scheduled sessions cancelled. Does that look like problems getting studio time ?

If he wasn't able to use them "on a whim without notice" I guess it was, according to Anderle and Taylor.

He couldn't record on a whim at the home studio either - was Jim Lockert staying at the house so that he could get up and engineer at a moment's notice?  Would the other Beach Boys get up at midnight and go to the house to record after a phone call?  the latter probably did happen occasionally, but more likely there would be a set time to show up and then recording would go on for as long Brian was up for it.

I still think the main change was the Beach boys doing it all instead of the studio musicians - hence the credit "produced by the Beach Boys" not in the sense of record producer production, but literally produced or a product of the Beach Boys, and not  a product of Brian and studio musicians.  "Puppets" no longer.


Jimmy was on contract or some kind of an arrangement as a dedicated engineer I believe, maybe Mr. Desper can elaborate.  Brian was able to record on much more of a whim with much less notice, which was the appeal of and reason for adoption of Grillo's plan, which also explains how SS took about as many sessions as PS but got done in a much shorter timespan.

The Beach Boys were doing it that same way most of their earlier career and it wasn't credited as to the Beach Boys, the real difference imo is they owned the label together in 1967.

Jim may have stayed at Bellagio on ocassion, I don't know.  He had a wife at home at the time and she was still his wife up until his death, as I remember, she mentioned being (not staying) at the house sometimes.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 06:49:31 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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« Reply #703 on: February 07, 2016, 09:04:08 PM »

"Puppets" no longer.

It also may have addressed two main points of criticism coming from the press after the May 67 tour in one fell swoop. Not only were the Beach Boys playing the music on their albums, the credit "Produced by The Beach Boys" would suggest they're no longer puppets, and as shown by the only concert they would give between May and the fall of 67, they could also play on stage and sound like they did on their most recent record. I'm sure at various times that criticism had to sting the band pretty hard and compromises made could serve to alleviate any issues related to that.

I just don't see it. They must have only been much bothered in Europe for one tour. Even in May they didn't cancel concerts when they couldn't get their extra musicians, they just went on as before. They just went on as before with out an expanded line-up after November 1966 and after May 1967. If the expanded band was because of this embarrassment, the embarrassment would still be there and why did they not keep enhancing the line up if it was out of embarrassmment?

I have a feeling it was more of a promotion for a particular newly expanding market or something like it, which would explain why they had not been bothered by it before or after this May 1967 tour and why when they planned to take extra musicians in November 1966 they dropped them when they were pre-sold and didn't need it.
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« Reply #704 on: February 07, 2016, 11:57:53 PM »

Al Jardine told me emphatically " Brian would call up at 2am/ 3am.......and would HAVE to be at the studio in half an hour. When he had that urge, we had to seize the moment"
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« Reply #705 on: February 08, 2016, 07:42:19 AM »

That would be the home studio, I'm assuming.
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« Reply #706 on: February 08, 2016, 09:16:59 AM »

Am I right in recalling that Stephen Desper said that he and one other person had the keys and when neither of them were there it was locked?
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« Reply #707 on: February 08, 2016, 01:03:18 PM »

Just for yucks, a timeline:

4/29 - Someone* states that Smile is finished and ready to be rush released once the Capitol lawsuit is settled.

  5/2 - European tour starts (ends 19th)

  5/6 - Derek Taylor states that Smile is "scrapped"

  6/3 - Smiley Smile sessions commence

  7/5 - Brian previews "H&V" at KHJ

7/20 - Smiley Smile assembled & mastered

7/24 - "H&V" single released (Brother)

7/25 - Engemann "10-track Smile" memo

7/31 - Best of... Volume 2 released

8/26 - and 27: Hawaiian shows for live album

8/28 - "Gettin' Hungry" single released (Brother)

9/11 - Wally Heider session for fake live album

9/15 - Smiley Smile released (Brother)

9/26 - "Wild Honey" session (and 27th)

10/18 - "Wild Honey" single released (Capitol)

10/25 - Wild Honey sessions commence

[* seeing as it was Carl who later claimed the album was finished, this earlier statement must make him at least a suspect...]

So... between July 25th and some time before August 26th, the Smile redux album went out the door. Why ? If Carl is to be believed, the tracks were waiting and ready to go, as was the booklets and cover art. Someone had to have said "no". Who ? And why ?


AGD - thanks for taking the time to do this timeline.

For my own sanity post reading through the thread, I started to put one together, wishing/hoping you or Cam (ie, people who know what they are talking about) would beat me to it.  And thank fcuk you did - cheers - A

PS - and someone also had to have said "where" (are these ready to go Smile songs)?"
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 01:06:01 PM by Alan Smith » Logged

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« Reply #708 on: February 08, 2016, 02:10:16 PM »

Ready to go Smile songs:

Wonderful
Wind Chimes
Surf's Up (solo version)
Good Vibrations
Vegetables (cornucopia version)
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow/The Elements (part one, but it certainly could have been released as its' own track)
Old Master Painter

Very close to ready:

Worms - needs lead vocal on verses only
Cabinessence - lead vocal on verses only

Tracks complete need vocals:
Child is Father (has chorus vocals, needs verse and bridge)
Heroes, December version (verses/shape/children were raised/3rd verse/Barnyard) - tracks complete, unclear in December what vocals had been attempted other than Barnyard backing vocals
Great Shape - part of Heroes at this point still, but some tracks could be added to the album as instrumentals - IWBA/Friday Night, Look, Holidays.

So An Album could have been close to completion - if he did the verse vocals on Worms and Cabinessence, and finished Heroes, I think the releasable tracks would have made a mind-blowing album in January 67.
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« Reply #709 on: February 08, 2016, 02:19:24 PM »

Just for yucks, a timeline:

4/29 - Someone* states that Smile is finished and ready to be rush released once the Capitol lawsuit is settled.

  5/2 - European tour starts (ends 19th)

  5/6 - Derek Taylor states that Smile is "scrapped"

  6/3 - Smiley Smile sessions commence

  7/5 - Brian previews "H&V" at KHJ

7/20 - Smiley Smile assembled & mastered

7/24 - "H&V" single released (Brother)

7/25 - Engemann "10-track Smile" memo

7/31 - Best of... Volume 2 released

8/26 - and 27: Hawaiian shows for live album

8/28 - "Gettin' Hungry" single released (Brother)

9/11 - Wally Heider session for fake live album

9/15 - Smiley Smile released (Brother)

9/26 - "Wild Honey" session (and 27th)

10/18 - "Wild Honey" single released (Capitol)

10/25 - Wild Honey sessions commence

[* seeing as it was Carl who later claimed the album was finished, this earlier statement must make him at least a suspect...]

So... between July 25th and some time before August 26th, the Smile redux album went out the door. Why ? If Carl is to be believed, the tracks were waiting and ready to go, as was the booklets and cover art. Someone had to have said "no". Who ? And why ?


AGD - thanks for taking the time to do this timeline.

For my own sanity post reading through the thread, I started to put one together, wishing/hoping you or Cam (ie, people who know what they are talking about) would beat me to it.  And thank fcuk you did - cheers - A

PS - and someone also had to have said "where" (are these ready to go Smile songs)?"


The timeline and the memo itself disputes the premise of the question asked. The memo is about not including the booklets with Smiley Smile, but instead "to hold it for the next album which will include the aforementioned 10 selections. The second album which would be packaged with the booklet would not include the selections Heroes And Villains and Vegetables"...and goes on to suggest an explanation would be included in the liner notes of the second album.

Why would the "Smile Redux" album have gone out the door between July 25 and August 26 if the memo was written July 25, and the timeline above says Smiley Smile wasn't released until September 15? Carl's comments were also published in the LA Times the first week of October, where he again suggested something was complete.

In other words, if this Smile redux album (the 'second album' in the Engemann memo) was going to at some point follow up after the release of Smiley Smile, and that didn't come out until September 15, how would it have gone out the door several weeks before Smiley Smile was even released if the plan were to follow Smiley?
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« Reply #710 on: February 08, 2016, 02:23:35 PM »

Ready to go Smile songs:

Wonderful
Wind Chimes
Surf's Up (solo version)
Good Vibrations
Vegetables (cornucopia version)
Mrs. O'Leary's Cow/The Elements (part one, but it certainly could have been released as its' own track)
Old Master Painter

Very close to ready:

Worms - needs lead vocal on verses only
Cabinessence - lead vocal on verses only

Tracks complete need vocals:
Child is Father (has chorus vocals, needs verse and bridge)
Heroes, December version (verses/shape/children were raised/3rd verse/Barnyard) - tracks complete, unclear in December what vocals had been attempted other than Barnyard backing vocals
Great Shape - part of Heroes at this point still, but some tracks could be added to the album as instrumentals - IWBA/Friday Night, Look, Holidays.

So An Album could have been close to completion - if he did the verse vocals on Worms and Cabinessence, and finished Heroes, I think the releasable tracks would have made a mind-blowing album in January 67.

I consider Wonderful and Wind Chimes to be in the very close to ready bucket - both have minor things to address (endings, edits) and I'm sure they could have used some additional complex vocal layering.  Similarly so for OMP - and Worms, sure it has chorus vocals, but it potentially would also need additional vocals on the chorus.

IMO of course - what would I know?  I'm just basing this on the vocal complexities of H/V (and the "Part 2" stuff), the verse background vox of Cabinessence and GV, and the complex vocal layers of Pet Sounds - I think vocally there was(is) still a long way to go on a releasable version of Smile.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 02:26:42 PM by Alan Smith » Logged

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« Reply #711 on: February 08, 2016, 02:46:50 PM »

Why would the "Smile Redux" album have gone out the door between July 25 and August 26 if the memo was written July 25, and the timeline above says Smiley Smile wasn't released until September 15? Carl's comments were also published in the LA Times the first week of October, where he again suggested something was complete.

In other words, if this Smile redux album (the 'second album' in the Engemann memo) was going to at some point follow up after the release of Smiley Smile, and that didn't come out until September 15, how would it have gone out the door several weeks before Smiley Smile was even released if the plan were to follow Smiley?

Because... on August 26th, the band were in Honolulu for the express purpose of recording a live album. Why would they do this, with Smiley Smile scant days away from release and a followup in the wings, unless there was a sudden and compelling need for some kind - any kind - of product ? If Smile redux was still a going concern, cover art, booklets and tracks ready to roll... just release the damn thing, already. Remember, Lei'd in Hawaii got as far as having a cover, and a catalog number  - Brother 9002 - some thing Smile II never achieved. As I've said before, to me, all the Engemann memo is proof of is a company trying to get some, any, return for a nearly year-long investment that looked like going straight down the drain, and Brian telling them what they wanted to hear, or saying whatever would get them off his case. My foundation for this premise ? Smile redux never happened, at a time when it really should have... if the tracks were, as claimed, all finished. Patently, they weren't, or we'd not be having this discussion now.
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« Reply #712 on: February 08, 2016, 05:02:37 PM »

Cam's theories as if everybody was buying them.

Et tu, Micha?  And I thought we were internet friends.... Wink

Why do you guys (you know who you are) keep pickin' on me by name?  (doe eyes)

I don't call you guys out by name over your half-assed theories and conspiracies that nobody else is buying. (granite jaw set)



Cam, I'm sorry if I did hurt your feelings with that, I don't know if I did, as you added that blinking smiley, but if so I apologize - I was just pointing out that while some of your opinions on this thread have not convinced a lot of people a certain poster got really upset as if everybody was readily agreeing. Probably I've been wording it badly, my excuse is of course that English is not my first language. Wink 2 Though I don't agree with some of your opinions I do respect them and appreciate your calm discussion style that doesn't take to emotional accusations when people disagree with you.
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« Reply #713 on: February 08, 2016, 05:16:10 PM »

I have to get back to this once more as I have been accused of being disrespectful and having "issues" which isn't true. I had been thinking of taking it to PMs but decided against that because if I'm on the wrong track maybe some of the other posters on this thread will be kind enough to tell me so. Some posters have confided me their sympathy with my points over the weekend, but other third party views are welcome.

I'll engage a conversation but not with someone whose goal might be more personal than something related to discussing the information. As I've already said, if your goal in posting this is to distract those who want to talk about the topics being discussed or make it about me and whatever issues you have against me or the board's moderation or anything else related, it will not happen here..

So, who's been talking about board moderation? Only you brought that up. I didn't. I was reflecting my perceptions oft your conduct in parts of this thread to you, but you don't consider them or explain to me what you really meant as I obviously got it wrong.


If you're here to discuss the issues, I engaged you in that and you chose instead to again bring up personal gripes, complaints, and everything else to make it personal. Your actions are unwelcome and if you're concerned about respect being shown by board members, start showing it in your own actions.

Some of your actions here are unwelcome to me, too. There's several instances where I found you to be not respectful at all. In what world is it respectful to just claim something and when asked for the source just go "Look for it, take more effort" - that's not what I would call camaraderie, that's condescending. And that is something I do have an issue with. Or do you find this respectful:

Oh, but Carl's word can be thrown out as he's been discredited, right? He only worked on the music, he didn't have access to session data and NME articles and timelines to reference.

Oh, so you choose to use sarcasm to discredit Cam? Is that quote not a "complaint", what you accused me of? GF, it's really too bad that you keep getting back to this style of discussion when people disagree with you, because you are very knowledgable and should not take disagreeing as a personal insult. That's how it seems sometimes to me. Maybe I'm just too sensitive and not tough enough to deal with this kind of behavior. It seems you have cooled down a bit in the last few days and I appreciate that. Still, I'll drop out of this discussion - the one about the situation of the band in summer 1967 and what led to the installation of the home studio - because I'm kind of emotionally drained right now.
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« Reply #714 on: February 08, 2016, 06:06:30 PM »

Cam's theories as if everybody was buying them.

Et tu, Micha?  And I thought we were internet friends.... Wink

Why do you guys (you know who you are) keep pickin' on me by name?  (doe eyes)

I don't call you guys out by name over your half-assed theories and conspiracies that nobody else is buying. (granite jaw set)



Cam, I'm sorry if I did hurt your feelings with that, I don't know if I did, as you added that blinking smiley, but if so I apologize - I was just pointing out that while some of your opinions on this thread have not convinced a lot of people a certain poster got really upset as if everybody was readily agreeing. Probably I've been wording it badly, my excuse is of course that English is not my first language. Wink 2 Though I don't agree with some of your opinions I do respect them and appreciate your calm discussion style that doesn't take to emotional accusations when people disagree with you.

I was teasing you (in a friendly way) while making a point about the board but we are respectfully friends and friendly even in our disagreements as far as I'm concerned.
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« Reply #715 on: February 08, 2016, 08:22:52 PM »

I have to get back to this once more as I have been accused of being disrespectful and having "issues" which isn't true. I had been thinking of taking it to PMs but decided against that because if I'm on the wrong track maybe some of the other posters on this thread will be kind enough to tell me so. Some posters have confided me their sympathy with my points over the weekend, but other third party views are welcome.

I'll engage a conversation but not with someone whose goal might be more personal than something related to discussing the information. As I've already said, if your goal in posting this is to distract those who want to talk about the topics being discussed or make it about me and whatever issues you have against me or the board's moderation or anything else related, it will not happen here..

So, who's been talking about board moderation? Only you brought that up. I didn't. I was reflecting my perceptions oft your conduct in parts of this thread to you, but you don't consider them or explain to me what you really meant as I obviously got it wrong.


If you're here to discuss the issues, I engaged you in that and you chose instead to again bring up personal gripes, complaints, and everything else to make it personal. Your actions are unwelcome and if you're concerned about respect being shown by board members, start showing it in your own actions.

Some of your actions here are unwelcome to me, too. There's several instances where I found you to be not respectful at all. In what world is it respectful to just claim something and when asked for the source just go "Look for it, take more effort" - that's not what I would call camaraderie, that's condescending. And that is something I do have an issue with. Or do you find this respectful:

Oh, but Carl's word can be thrown out as he's been discredited, right? He only worked on the music, he didn't have access to session data and NME articles and timelines to reference.

Oh, so you choose to use sarcasm to discredit Cam? Is that quote not a "complaint", what you accused me of? GF, it's really too bad that you keep getting back to this style of discussion when people disagree with you, because you are very knowledgable and should not take disagreeing as a personal insult. That's how it seems sometimes to me. Maybe I'm just too sensitive and not tough enough to deal with this kind of behavior. It seems you have cooled down a bit in the last few days and I appreciate that. Still, I'll drop out of this discussion - the one about the situation of the band in summer 1967 and what led to the installation of the home studio - because I'm kind of emotionally drained right now.

Micha, I admire you for returning to this as it seems to me that this has had you troubled for a few days, days in which I've not seen you post at all.

I also stepped back from this discussion for a while after an over-reaction to my comments about certain points made by Carl Wilson that were posted here; I sensed a potential shitstorm brewing and from the experience of one previous shitstorm thought it wiser to step back and let it play out or, better, immediately dissipate.

I hope some air has been cleared already; there's little hope for fair debate when personal misunderstandings impede posters' willingness to partake.

I also hope the weather forecast is for clear skies and sunshine.
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« Reply #716 on: February 08, 2016, 09:41:52 PM »

I've already said this is not the place to shift the discussions anywhere else except discussing and debating the issues related to Smile, I doubt people coming here to read the discussions and participate in them want to read personal issues, issues about moderating the board, or anything not Smile related. I have been discussing those issues, will continue to do so, and hope everyone will do the same moving forward.
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« Reply #717 on: February 08, 2016, 09:45:23 PM »

I hate to derail the topic by asking about "Wind Chimes" but since Micha is still active in this thread, I figured it was better than starting a new thread for him or anyone else to answer.

I recently learned (from Micha) that the first Smile recording of "Wind Chimes" was nearly identical in structure to the one on the first disc of TSS but with harpsichord in place of the marimba. Regarding this I have two questions: Am I correct that this version is "Take 5" on Unsurpassed Masters Vol. 17?  Second, when did the structure change? I know "Wind Chimes" was the first song recorded for the Smile sessions. Did Brian return to it later using the modular recording technique or did the tape used as the template for the 1993 use sections taken from the original session.  Either way, one final question as well: At what point did Brian first record it with the marimba?

Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #718 on: February 08, 2016, 10:13:54 PM »

Why would the "Smile Redux" album have gone out the door between July 25 and August 26 if the memo was written July 25, and the timeline above says Smiley Smile wasn't released until September 15? Carl's comments were also published in the LA Times the first week of October, where he again suggested something was complete.

In other words, if this Smile redux album (the 'second album' in the Engemann memo) was going to at some point follow up after the release of Smiley Smile, and that didn't come out until September 15, how would it have gone out the door several weeks before Smiley Smile was even released if the plan were to follow Smiley?

Because... on August 26th, the band were in Honolulu for the express purpose of recording a live album. Why would they do this, with Smiley Smile scant days away from release and a followup in the wings, unless there was a sudden and compelling need for some kind - any kind - of product ? If Smile redux was still a going concern, cover art, booklets and tracks ready to roll... just release the damn thing, already. Remember, Lei'd in Hawaii got as far as having a cover, and a catalog number  - Brother 9002 - some thing Smile II never achieved. As I've said before, to me, all the Engemann memo is proof of is a company trying to get some, any, return for a nearly year-long investment that looked like going straight down the drain, and Brian telling them what they wanted to hear, or saying whatever would get them off his case. My foundation for this premise ? Smile redux never happened, at a time when it really should have... if the tracks were, as claimed, all finished. Patently, they weren't, or we'd not be having this discussion now.

Add this to the timeline, taken from Billboard's July 22 1967 issue:




With that time frame in mind, again I'd ask why would there be an expectation that an album specifically described in the July 25th memo as a release which would follow Smiley Smile that was even planned as of July 25th to include an explanation in the liner notes be released prior to Smiley Smile?

Now - factoring in that Billboard article of July 22 - we can also better estimate a date when Capitol and the Beach Boys/Brother Records finally came to an agreement to allow new releases, as well as new contracts in place as the band had been demanding for months. As written in that article, the first Brother release was to be Heroes And Villains, even though some markets (and there is proof KHJ was among those playing advance copies as "exclusives" prior to the release) had already been playing it on air.

Thinking along the lines of a new record label, literally one which had just gotten all the papers signed and had been given the go-ahead to begin doing business as a record label with agreed distribution from Capitol...

What would be the #1, top priority for a new record label in its first months of business? Absolutely, positively, that label would need to have product on the store shelves. Within days after this "official" news item in Billboard, the first Brother single came out. Within a month, the second Brother "Brian And Mike" single came out. EDIT: Just a few weeks after Around the same that single came out, the Smiley Smile album was released.

How or why would Hawaii 67 be tied into this proposed Smile release, to come after Smiley Smile? It's quite simple. An album is rarely planned, executed, finished, then released in a few weeks' time. The Beach Boys needed material on hand for releases on their new label. When they played Hawaii, that label was more or less a month old since it had been made official - and since the Summer Spectacular shows were a big yearly event for the band, this time add the appeal that it was held in Hawaii...what better way to get material to have on hand for a future release? It's not as if they did not do this before, as the live shows in the vaults up to that point prove.

When they played Hawaii, they had a release date set for Smiley Smile. They had the ten-track album of whatever that would have been of the Smile tracks on the table. Now they had a set of new live recordings along with ones from Fall 66 and even back to 65 if they wanted to have another live release...and that was also planned around Wild Honey for a time, as the original WH tracklists, handwritten and typed, clearly show.

It does not suggest the Hawaii live material would have gone into the market right away, in fact to release it at any point too close to the release of Smiley Smile in September would have gone against basic record company practice of not flooding the market and piggybacking albums on top of each other without giving the previous album time to run its course on the charts and with sales. Had any Beach Boys' album except for the Christmas record come less than 2-3 months after the previous album was released? That's a simple label practice of not flooding the market with product.

*IF* this Smile 10-track deal would have come out, when would it come out? The memo says it would follow Smiley...but how soon after?

What we do know is the band got into their R&B thing by the fall of 67 with Wild Honey, first the Oct 67 single, then the December 67 album...both for some reason issued on Capitol.

If Smiley had come out in mid September, again according to standard label release practices and the usual schedule of new album releases from label artists, just how soon after that would they be expected to release a live album that had been recorded in late August? The expectation being presented in the points here wouldn't be in line with how things were done, perhaps as simple as that.

But they had more material in the vaults which they could use for future releases, both live and whatever the Smile material was, and we have both memos and proposed liner notes to back up that there were in fact plans in the fall of '67 to do something with the live material, and at one point in the timeline similar plans to include the Smile booklets in the album to be released after Smiley Smile.

The plans and dates and details changed as they often do, but there was still material to pull from in the Brother vaults for future releases if needed. Perhaps not coincidentally, Brian was working with Redwood to give them even more material for future Brother releases in the fall of 67. That was the plan for the label, to release both Beach Boys and outside acts, and they were following it.
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« Reply #719 on: February 08, 2016, 10:47:24 PM »

For those who may not have seen the "Wild Honey" liner notes handwritten as they had existed at one point, here they are:



Note the mention of an upcoming live album.
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« Reply #720 on: February 08, 2016, 11:29:19 PM »


Add this to the timeline, taken from Billboard's July 22 1967 issue:




With that time frame in mind, again I'd ask why would there be an expectation that an album specifically described in the July 25th memo as a release which would follow Smiley Smile that was even planned as of July 25th to include an explanation in the liner notes be released prior to Smiley Smile?

I've never said, nor implied, that Smile redux would be released prior to Smiley Smile (which incidentally had been assembled, and presumably mastered, five days before the memo). Nor has anyone else here. The wording of the memo is very clear on that point. Kindly refrain from attributing something I've not said to me, or inferring same.

Quote
Now - factoring in that Billboard article of July 22 - we can also better estimate a date when Capitol and the Beach Boys/Brother Records finally came to an agreement to allow new releases, as well as new contracts in place as the band had been demanding for months.

July 18th.

Quote
What would be the #1, top priority for a new record label in its first months of business? Absolutely, positively, that label would need to have product on the store shelves. Within days after this "official" news item in Billboard, the first Brother single came out. Within a month, the second Brother "Brian And Mike" single came out. EDIT: Just a few weeks after Around the same that single came out, the Smiley Smile album was released.

Single released August 28th, album released September 18th.

Quote
It does not suggest the Hawaii live material would have gone into the market right away, in fact to release it at any point too close to the release of Smiley Smile in September would have gone against basic record company practice of not flooding the market and piggybacking albums on top of each other without giving the previous album time to run its course on the charts and with sales. Had any Beach Boys' album except for the Christmas record come less than 2-3 months after the previous album was released? That's a simple label practice of not flooding the market with product.

*IF* this Smile 10-track deal would have come out, when would it come out? The memo says it would follow Smiley...but how soon after?

What we do know is the band got into their R&B thing by the fall of 67 with Wild Honey, first the Oct 67 single, then the December 67 album...both for some reason issued on Capitol.

If Smiley had come out in mid September, again according to standard label release practices and the usual schedule of new album releases from label artists, just how soon after that would they be expected to release a live album that had been recorded in late August? The expectation being presented in the points here wouldn't be in line with how things were done, perhaps as simple as that.

But they had more material in the vaults which they could use for future releases, both live and whatever the Smile material was, and we have both memos and proposed liner notes to back up that there were in fact plans in the fall of '67 to do something with the live material, and at one point in the timeline similar plans to include the Smile booklets in the album to be released after Smiley Smile.

The plans and dates and details changed as they often do, but there was still material to pull from in the Brother vaults for future releases if needed. Perhaps not coincidentally, Brian was working with Redwood to give them even more material for future Brother releases in the fall of 67. That was the plan for the label, to release both Beach Boys and outside acts, and they were following it.

All this is assuming standard business practise, and one of the ideas behind Brother was that it do business in a new way. As for material in the vaults, I doubt that even Mike would have contemplated the release of 1965 & 1966 shows, top heavy with hits and standards, in super-hip 1967. A reminder of the 1966 Michigan show:

1. Help Me Rhonda
2. I Get Around
3. Surfin Safari (#3-7 performed as a medley)
4. Fun Fun Fun
5. Shut Down
6. Little Deuce Coupe
7. Surfin USA
8. Surfer Girl
9. Papa Oom Mow Mow
10. You're So Good To Me
11. You've Got To Hide Your Love Away
12. California Girls
13. Sloop John B
14. Wouldnt It Be Nice
15. God Only Knows
16. Good Vibrations
17. Graduation Day
18. Barbara Ann
19. Johnny B. Goode

Released in, say, December 1966/January 1967, it would have been an invitation to ridicule. To be fair, the Hawaii shows weren't that much better:

1. Hawthorne Boulevard
2. Hawaii
3. You're So Good To Me
4. Help Me Rhonda
5. California Girls
6. Wouldn't It Be Nice
7. Gettin Hungry
8. Surfer Girl
9. Surfin'
10. Sloop John B
11. The Letter
12. God Only Knows
13. Good Vibrations
14. Heroes And Villains
15. Barbara Ann .

Maybe this was Plan Z - when in doubt, record a live album. But back to known facts. Smile redux, despite being allegedly on the blocks and ready to roar... never happened, likely because it never was good to go. The live Hawaii tapes were so problematic that the band seriously considered faking it up in the studio: now, if there was product available, why do this, and in a commercial studio too with the additional expense ? Then suddenly... there's a new single sounding like nothing they've ever done before, and when that does relatively well, they start recording a similarly themed album. I propose that none of this indicates a band with a profusion of material in the can that they were willing to release.

Also... Wild Honey was apparently originally set to be Brother 9003... yet the trailering single was released on Capitol. That's always fascinated me: why did Brother founder within months, if not weeks ? The Brother 1003 "Wild Honey" single would have given it a Top 40 hit, and then "Darlin'"on 1004 a respectable Top 20 placing, helping the album on 9003 into the Top 30. And this is the exact same music. Maybe Capitol sabotaged the deal with indifferent distribution... maybe the band just said "f*** it". Who knows ? Not me.
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« Reply #721 on: February 08, 2016, 11:47:38 PM »

For those who may not have seen the "Wild Honey" liner notes handwritten as they had existed at one point, here they are:



Note the mention of an upcoming live album.

Indeed... but compiled from a variety of shows, not the full Hawaii set. Also, the proposed track listing for this Ur-Wild Honey included songs that were never finished up, for whatever reason (tracks discarded indicated):

Side 1
Wild Honey
Here Comes The Night
Let The Wind Blow
I Was Made To Love Her
The Letter
Darlin'

Side 2
A Thing Or Two
Aren't You Glad
Cool, Cool Water
Game Of Love
Lonely Days
Honey Get Home


The Wild Honey sessions, the title track (and one other) excepted, occupied a very compressed timespan - October 25th to November 15th -  and the discarded tracks were all cut in October. The album itself was released December 18th, which somewhat contradicts your previous statement of " An album is rarely planned, executed, finished, then released in a few weeks' time." Essentially, 55 days from studio to the racks. Now, that's a rush release ! And somewhere in those 55 days, an early version was proposed, discarded, and the label changed. Again, looks to me like a band hurting for material they were comfortable releasing.
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« Reply #722 on: February 09, 2016, 12:02:19 AM »

I was addressing this comment:

So... between July 25th and some time before August 26th, the Smile redux album went out the door. Why ? If Carl is to be believed, the tracks were waiting and ready to go, as was the booklets and cover art. Someone had to have said "no". Who ? And why ?

How do we know the 10-track Smile plans were ditched before Hawaii? The suggestion that because the band recorded the Hawaii shows in August the "Smile Redux" went out the door between the date of the memo (July 25) and Hawaii (August 26) doesn't add up - they're not related. The Hawaii shows were a big deal, the band wanted to record them so they had more live material in their vaults to eventually release, there is nothing unusual about that, and nothing about holding such material for months on end waiting for a release. It's the claim that whatever the Smile Redux might have been got ditched before Hawaii or because of Hawaii being recorded that doesn't jive with the timeline. Maybe the band just wanted to capture the event of being in Hawaii for their annual Spectacular shows and that Brian would be performing with them live for the first time in several years which made it appealing as a potential live release. And, as a self-contained band on stage, they'd sound like their upcoming record, upcoming single, previous single, etc. No room for the type of criticism that followed their most recent UK shows on that point.  

And they would have more material to pull from the vaults for releases after Smiley Smile on the new label, independent of whatever would happen with the 10-track Smile deal. Plans changed.

I'm also revisiting how Wild Honey came about, it was obviously a major change in the band's sound to R&B, yet the single...it had Wind Chimes as the B-side, so even that doesn't seem to fit stylistically. Yet, releasing Wild Honey was a definite shift in direction especially in Carl's vocal style, followed by the album.

As I've said earlier, perhaps such a shift in sound going on the band's next lead-off single might have made releasing the Smile material at that specific time not as good of a match. If the band was trying to toughen up their sound as Carl said, go more hard-edged R&B in October 67 with that single, releasing Smile tapes at that time wouldn't fit their plan.

So, as Carl said not long before the WH single came out in October 67, ""We didn't scrap them we just haven't used them yet." If the band changed their sound for an important single, that would be one reason why they didn't use them at that time.

How or why Wild Honey ended up on the Capitol label and not Brother was a total mystery.
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« Reply #723 on: February 09, 2016, 12:17:46 AM »

Was Smile redux ever mentioned again, in such specific terms... or indeed at all ? No, so it's reasonable to consider it abandoned. Granted my wording could, should, have been less assured. I don't know, you don't know, hardly anyone knows. But fact is, it was canned at some point after 7/25/67 and before 9/11/67, when the band tried to fake a live album, realised it wasn't happening and instead made the first step on the road to Wild Honey.

We need to ask anyone we can what happened in the second half of 1967. In many ways, it's more of a mystery then Smile.
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« Reply #724 on: February 09, 2016, 01:31:57 AM »

We need to ask anyone we can what happened in the second half of 1967. In many ways, it's more of a mystery then Smile.

Maybe some  answers on what was happening with BW in summer of 1967 can be found in this "must read" article by D. Dalton. But on the other hand maybe it's just a big put on by BW, but..remember the scene in the pool in "Love and Mercy"?
Unfortunately, this is not an entire article, but if I recall correctly it's pretty close.. Maybe someone can put out entire article!
http://pleasekillme.com/epiphany-at-zuma-beach-or-brian-wilson-hallucinates-me/
Enjoy!
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