Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[Ian]

Sorry Pete Johnson reported in the LA Times "Beach Boys Break Silence" on July 16, 1967 that July 5 was the day Brian took the record to KHJ.  He also noted "Then he took copies to other local stations, placing Capitol in the difficult position of listening to music which legally belonged to the company but which the company could not immediately distribute.  Legal difficulties, however, appear to be near settlement"

[Ian]

In terms of October 8 1967 LA Times-again Pete Johnson's column:  Carl says "We didn't scrap them we just haven't used them yet.  We did it all from scratch when we started again.  We actually had finished the album but then a lot of things didn't turn out the way Brian liked.  We all didn't agree on different types of things.  We decided to do something new."  Mike Love, another Beach Boys, said "If Brian gets an idea it's now and it's better than something from the past. I've seen it a hundred times.  we've seen a lot of potentially great songs just be shelved.  They come out maybe two or three years later, but they're in his mind somehow.  If that particular idea seems to fit what he's working on at the time it will just come naturally."

[The_Holy_Bee]

Read the memo, it says "I agreed with Brian..." (about the booklets). Brian was involved in that decision.

Fair enough. Thanks GF - I should have re-read the memo before posting.

EDIT: So, here's the relevant quote from the memo: "[Engelman] agreed with Brian that the best course of action would be to NOT include this booklet with the SMILEY SMILE package, but rather to hold it for the next album which will include the aforementioned 10 selections."

And just for contrast:

"I told the company, 'No, I don't want this to be released; I want this to go on the shelf.' We didn't tell them for how long. We told them 'For a while.'" - Brian Wilson, 2011

[Cam Mott]

Could you clarify that? What was incorrect? Both Engemann and Desper say Brian took the song to KHJ so he could hear what it sounded like on the radio...which interview or what part of an interview are you saying is incorrect?

The date July 5 to KHJ apparently.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The Engemann memo is something of a red herring, as previously noted, with Brian most likely telling them what they wanted to hear. The "next album" swiftly became a proposed live set, then rapidly morphed into Wild Honey. In any event, a ten track Smile never happened.

[Cam Mott]

After seeing Dennis' and Mike's quotes posted by Ian, I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't Brian who sabotaged the Boys. Maybe intentionally, probably unintentionally, but if you take everybody at their word, the Boys seem to think SMiLE is still a go and will hit the stores after this May tour (so they aren't announcing it is scrapped) but at the same time Brian knows it's not finished, a lot is only half done, Brian's having all the issues with SMiLE and H&V that Taylor is reporting in April and May, and he is already recording alternate tracks but he announces it is scrapped in conversations with Taylor while the Boys are on the tour they think is preceding SMiLE's release.  Something like that?

[The_Holy_Bee]

After seeing Dennis' and Mike's quotes posted by Ian, I'm beginning wonder if it wasn't Brian who sabotaged the Boys. Maybe intentionally, probably unintentionally, but if you take everybody at their word, the Boys seem to think SMiLE is still a go and maybe will hit the stores after this May tour but at the same time Brian knows it's not finished (he is already recording alternate tracks) and announces it is scrapped in conversations with Taylor while they are on the tour.  Something like that?

Seems plausible.

[Ian]

We've been through all this before but other mysteries remain.  How come Bruce didn't appear on most of the album? Choice or was he asked not to attend? Why did Brian insist on recording new versions of wonderful and wind chimes and vegetables when he had great ones in the can?  Did the guys challenge him on that? I mean mike doesn't strike me as a guy who loves hanging out in the studio. He's like John Lennon-just get in and get it done! So did he not say "Brian I am not doing my vocals again when you have a basically finished version of this song in the vault!

[Ian]

I think you can compare Brian to orson Welles.  He was accused of going over budget and getting too arty and having trouble finishing projects so when a studio offered to let him direct a movie called the stranger in 1946 it was on the proviso that he work on a tight budget and stick to the script. Basically they wanted him to demonstrate that he could work within the rules. Maybe smiley smile was a bit like that.  Brian was sort of on the spot to just get a record done. Less crazy all night sessions and less modular recording. Straightforward hours and less outside musicians and a tight budget.  But as many have pointed out some even stranger arrangements and odd songs.

[CenturyDeprived]

After seeing Dennis' and Mike's quotes posted by Ian, I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't Brian who sabotaged the Boys. Maybe intentionally, probably unintentionally, but if you take everybody at their word, the Boys seem to think SMiLE is still a go and will hit the stores after this May tour (so they are aren't announcing it is scrapped) but at the same time Brian knows it's not finished, a lot is only half done, Brian's having all the issues with SMiLE and H&V that Taylor is reporting in April and May, and he is already recording alternate tracks but he announces it is scrapped in conversations with Taylor while the Boys are on the tour they think is preceding SMiLE's release.  Something like that?

Well, why oh why would Brian even *possibly*, as you concede he *might* have, intentionally sabotage the Boys, when there was surely zero resentment over the project (Brian being resentful of the Boys over some aspects of the project) whatsoever? Zilch, nada, none, right?

Hmm...

[Alan Smith]

We've been through all this before but other mysteries remain.  How come Bruce didn't appear on most of the album? Choice or was he asked not to attend? Why did Brian insist on recording new versions of wonderful and wind chimes and vegetables when he had great ones in the can?  Did the guys challenge him on that? I mean mike doesn't strike me as a guy who loves hanging out in the studio. He's like John Lennon-just get in and get it done! So did he not say "Brian I am not doing my vocals again when you have a basically finished version of this song in the vault!

Great questions, Ian.  Your later questions remind me of a brief section in the Byron Preiss book that says, "For the Beach Boys there was a sense of departure from the intense period of recording that had begun with Pet Sounds and dissipated in the final days of Smile.  The group and the family were back together again.  Brian's circle of friends from the Smile days had moved on. "Heroes and Villians" was a bona-fide hit, and Capitol wanted it on a new album along with "Good Vibrations".

No great insights from me as usual, but I imagine the "group/family" approach combined with hanging out at Brian's house would have removed/lessened any resistance to redoing things - a more on their terms kind of thing.

[Ian]

I agree with everything you said.  And like I said earlier-even though there is a ton of stuff that they should have discussed-I wouldn't be stunned to learn that none of this was ever addressed directly

[Sheriff John Stone]

That Engemann memo has always fascinated me. I wish we knew more about it.

Over the last 55 years, The Beach Boys have shown a propensity to, shall I say, not exactly tell the truth in interviews, for a variety of reasons. That makes it difficult and sometimes impossible to use quotes to make a point and certainly to prove (or disprove) one. I suppose we all, to some extent, use (cherry-pick?) quotes that strengthen our personal positions and dismiss the ones that weaken our arguments. However, to get down to the bare basics, as a Beach Boy diehard, I have learned, just because Brian or Mike or Carl or whoever said something, doesn't automatically mean it is true - or a fact. It might be all we have, and you have to consider it, and you have to assign some weight to it, but you also have to consider the source, and I'm sorry if that's being too blunt or negative.

I tend to put more weight on things that took more time to think over, discussed, and ultimately put down in writing. I think you get a better shot at the truth, or at least honest thoughts, when people (specifically the individual Beach Boys) take the time to discuss issues, maybe in a meeting setting, as opposed to just blurting out comments or sound bites to an interviewer. At the top of my wish list has always been meeting minutes. I think we would be astounded at what was discussed there and by whom. I think long-held myths would drop like flies.

Anyway, back to things in writing... I always put a lot of stock in the handwritten SMiLE tracklist submitted to Capitol in December 1966. It had to be thought out. It had to written down. It had to be submitted. It had to be/should have been taken seriously due to the reason/request for the tracklist in the first place. It wasn't something blurted out in a minute or two to satisfy fans or a reporter who wanted some quotes for a magazine article.

I'm finally getting to my point of this post! I guess I put more stock in the Karl Engemann memo than most do. This memo was the result of a series of conversations with Brian Wilson. It wasn't a quickie interview where Brian blurts out a few lines. This memo stated "After discussing a number of alternatives with Brian..." To me the key words are "discussing" and "a number". The memo mentioned specifically ten songs, SMiLE booklets, and a specific time frame, meaning the NEXT  Beach Boys'album. This was important stuff, not Teen Beat magazine fluff. Oh, and did I mention that it involved $$$$$$$$$$?

Brian Wilson could be a jerk in the way he treated various people including his wife, his children, and sometimes his bandmates and lyricists. But I would hope when he was discussing projects DIRECTLY with representatives of the record company, that he was being honest and fair. I believe that the December 1966 SMiLE tracklist was honest, and, at least for some period of time (insert your own), based on the Engemann memo, he intended to release a ten track SMiLE album after Smiley Smile. Based on that belief, I tend to view Smiley Smile as a laid back, Party-like album, used to buy more time, giving the record company and fans some "product", while Brian could satisfy himself with his next work of art (like Pet Sounds, now SMiLE). Yes, obviously things didn't come to pass as the Engemann memo planned, but, again, I believe, for a short period of time, it was THE PLAN. I hope Brian wasn't conning anybody. And, now it raises more questions. Why didn't it come to pass. Why did they go into Wild Honey? In SMiLE's history, it serves as a marker, I believe, and an important marker to at least consider. Hey, Karl Engemann is still alive and kicking. Anybody know how to contact him?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Discussing a number of alternatives could mean anything from several structured meetings to Engemann calling Brian for a few minutes, outlining three or four different plans and Brian saying "that one". I feel the memo reveals  more of Capitol than of Brian.

[Matt Bielewicz]

...Brian was sort of on the spot to just get a record done. Less crazy all night sessions and less modular recording. Straightforward hours and less outside musicians and a tight budget.  But as many have pointed out some even stranger arrangements and odd songs.

Ian, I think you're making some great points here and bringing, in the form of the quotes you've found by scouring contemporary publications, some fascinating material to this saga! But I did want to highlight this point. Although the Smiley recordings are simpler than the stuff recorded at the SMiLE sessions, and unquestionably involve fewer outside musicians (and therefore much less expense)... well, they're still pretty out there. Many of the tracks ARE recorded in modular fashion, as the SOT disc shows us. And the arrangements, particularly the vocals, are actually still very intricate, even if the slightly sloppy way a couple of them are delivered helps to create a superficially different impression (the intro to Little Pad, I'm looking at you).

This is one of the things that has always baffled me about Smiley Smile. It's been discussed here before, of course, and can be summed up as follows: if it was supposed to be a solution to the difficulties that Brian had got himself into while trying to finish SMiLE... then it's a pretty strange solution! Consider:

Some of the Beach Boys (we know who...) have expressed concerns about the VDP lyrics being hard to relate to. Maybe Brian thinks they are, too. So, what do they do for Smiley Smile? They, er... STILL USE several tracks featuring VDP's lyrics. And the others aren't exactly straightforward, 'Boy-Girl relatable' stuff. Even Getting Hungry, which is written by Brian and Mike, the classic team behind some of their archetypal boy-girl numbers, and does seem to be a boy addressing a girl, is pretty off-the-wall... the 'boy' sounds incredibly oversexed and creepy, and not in a good way. It's hardly 'Your Summer Dream'.

Brian said, both at the time and many times later, that he junked SMiLE because of concerns about it 'not being right for the Beach Boys' or 'not being commercial enough'. And we know, despite the success of Good Vibrations in between, that since Pet Sounds there had been concerns about the commercial appeal of the Boys' recent material: certainly at the record company and also, um, within the band (naming no names). So the obvious solution to this... IS TO PUT OUT SMILEY SMILE? An album featuring the Boys so obviously stoned that they crack up laughing, with songs about Vegetables and a girl pouring hair restorer on her head in a desperate attempt to bring back her shining tresses of yore...?? These aren't the apple-pie, gold-disc-winning Beach Boys of Surfer Girl any more — listen instead to the 'crazed acid party chat' rammed into the middle of the languid ballad Wonderful... the deep 'laughing' vocals and wonky Woody Woodpecker accordion motifs of the oddball 'Fall Breaks And Back To Winter', and the chipmunk squeaks of the 'Eltronned' Boys on 'She's Going Bald'...

OK, so the big hit Good Vibrations is on there too... but at that stage, that record was nearly three-quarters of a year old, and doesn't sound like anything else on the album. In short, what the ACTUAL Foda??

We also know that there were, as there had been over Pet Sounds, 'concerns' from the touring group that the new material would be far too hard to play on stage. So what does the group do? It puts out an album which... they hardly ever played any tracks from live. From memory, what? Heroes and Villains for a few weeks only (and then it was in the deep freeze until the early 70s concerts) and Getting Hungry for even less time... that was pretty much it for the 60s, wasn't it? Oh, and of course Brian put Baldwin organ all over it... that most eminently portable and lightweight of instruments for live use. And yeah, I know they DID use the Baldwin live in Hawaii... but it wasn't something they did very often after that. If, indeed, ever!

We also know that Brian is getting more and more unhappy as the SMiLE sessions progress. He doesn't feel as though things are coming easily to him any more... he gets totally stressed out over the recording of Heroes and Villains and how to put it together. He records more and more things in shorter and shorter sections, cutting far fewer tracks live as one piece. And his solution, moving to the 'clean sheet' of the Smiley Smile sessions, is... er...

...to continue recording everything in short sections, and to bring the recording environment which has caused him so much stress in recent time INTO HIS ACTUAL LIVING SPACE!

I could go on. In short, it just seems as though they looked at all the things that weren't working about SMiLE, said (sensibly enough) 'this is causing no end of stress, we need a break from this and a fresh start...' And then they pitched headlong into an album that almost seems calculated NOT to resolve any of the problems SMiLE was causing, and if anything, would actually exacerbate them...

Not that any of this diminishes my absolute love of Smiley Smile (I'm a believer through and through)... but it seems a pretty odd response to all the problems thrown up by late 1966 and early 1967 in Beach Boys land...!

[Cam Mott]

After seeing Dennis' and Mike's quotes posted by Ian, I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't Brian who sabotaged the Boys. Maybe intentionally, probably unintentionally, but if you take everybody at their word, the Boys seem to think SMiLE is still a go and will hit the stores after this May tour (so they are aren't announcing it is scrapped) but at the same time Brian knows it's not finished, a lot is only half done, Brian's having all the issues with SMiLE and H&V that Taylor is reporting in April and May, and he is already recording alternate tracks but he announces it is scrapped in conversations with Taylor while the Boys are on the tour they think is preceding SMiLE's release.  Something like that?

Well, why oh why would Brian even *possibly*, as you concede he *might* have, intentionally sabotage the Boys, when there was surely zero resentment over the project (Brian being resentful of the Boys over some aspects of the project) whatsoever? Zilch, nada, none, right?

Hmm...

I only mentioned "intentionally" because as I remember the original Priore "scrapped" announcement conspiracy theory was Mike was intentionally sabotaging Brian. Something like that.

[Cam Mott]

Smiley is a mystery. According to Brian in that KHJ HoR&R interview apparently the Boys did protest about the scrapping of the songs they had for SMiLE.  On the other hand, they had done take after take for the SMiLE versions and then did more takes of some of the same songs for Smiley. On the third hand, it doesn't seem to matter much maybe what they think and they don't seem that well informed about what is going on anyway. 

I suppose that what Brian didn't like or want is in what he scrapped or changed and I guess it must have been something other than the arrangements or instrumentation etc. for the ones he scrapped because he could have kept them, as he kept some, in alternate arrangements. Conversely I suppose what he did want is kept in or created for Smiley.

[Cam Mott]

Could you clarify that? What was incorrect? Both Engemann and Desper say Brian took the song to KHJ so he could hear what it sounded like on the radio...which interview or what part of an interview are you saying is incorrect?

The date July 5 to KHJ apparently.

After some sleep, I realize Engemann says it is a tape, so the original delivery of on or before July 3 was an acetate which isn't in conflict with Brian also delivering  tape on July 5. Seems sensible actually.

[guitarfool2002]

Could you clarify that? What was incorrect? Both Engemann and Desper say Brian took the song to KHJ so he could hear what it sounded like on the radio...which interview or what part of an interview are you saying is incorrect?

The date July 5 to KHJ apparently.

After some sleep, I realize Engemann says it is a tape, so the original delivery of on or before July 3 was an acetate which isn't in conflict with Brian also delivering  tape on July 5. Seems sensible actually.

What previous date was given? I only said July 3 referencing a KHJ aircheck that exists but has nothing to do with Heroes or Brian's tape, not the date when they went to KHJ's studios.

[Cam Mott]

Could you clarify that? What was incorrect? Both Engemann and Desper say Brian took the song to KHJ so he could hear what it sounded like on the radio...which interview or what part of an interview are you saying is incorrect?

The date July 5 to KHJ apparently.

After some sleep, I realize Engemann says it is a tape, so the original delivery of on or before July 3 was an acetate which isn't in conflict with Brian also delivering  tape on July 5. Seems sensible actually.

What previous date was given? I only said July 3 referencing a KHJ aircheck that exists but has nothing to do with Heroes or Brian's tape, not the date when they went to KHJ's studios.

My bad, I thought you were saying Steele played H&V on the 3rd, I didn't read it closely enough.  The 5th it is then.  An acetate for KHJ and a tape for Engemann.

[filledeplage]

Could you clarify that? What was incorrect? Both Engemann and Desper say Brian took the song to KHJ so he could hear what it sounded like on the radio...which interview or what part of an interview are you saying is incorrect?

The date July 5 to KHJ apparently.

After some sleep, I realize Engemann says it is a tape, so the original delivery of on or before July 3 was an acetate which isn't in conflict with Brian also delivering  tape on July 5. Seems sensible actually.

What previous date was given? I only said July 3 referencing a KHJ aircheck that exists but has nothing to do with Heroes or Brian's tape, not the date when they went to KHJ's studios.

My bad, I thought you were saying Steele played H&V on the 3rd, I didn't read it closely enough.  The 5th it is then.  An acetate for KHJ and a tape for Engemann.

Cam - according to Carlin, p. 121, "...in the summer of 1967, Brian felt strongly enough about the new version that he kept it to himself for weeks, waiting for his astrologer, named Genevelyn, to identify the perfect moment to spring it upon the unsuspecting world. She came to Brian in the evening of July 11

...As Terry Melcher told the tale to Rolling Stone in 1971, it all began around the evening on the eleventh, when Brian gathered his remaining intimates (unnamed) into a flock of limousines and sped from the gates of his Bel Air home...to... KHJ-AM...presented it to Tom Maule, the overnight DJ..."Hi, I'm Brian Wilson, Melcher recalled hearing the pop monarch declare. 'Here is the new Beach Boys single, and I'd like to give you and KHJ an exclusive on it.'

'...I can't play anything that's not on the playlist,'...Maule was convinced to call the program director at home --'Put it on, you idiot!' Melcher recalled hearing the guy shreik..."

[filledeplage]

double post - mea culpa

Happy Friday! 

[Micha]

What you wrote here:
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but every human being is fallible and there is nobody whose every word can be taken as gospel. Everybody's statements have to be checked for plausibility. That doesn't equal discrediting them completely.


That is EXACTLY what I have been saying too. Why you direct it at me who has been agreeing with exactly that principle instead of addressing those who are using one questionable line or one word to throw away everything a person said or wrote is something maybe you could answer for me

All right, here we go. This is my perception of things. I went back to read John Manning's post with the word "discredit", and he says:

Surely that "Smile is finished" statement effectively discredits some of what Carl had to say that day?

SOME of what Carl had to say THAT DAY. You then went into a kind of rant that seemed to me like a hissy fit about people trying to discredit Carl totally as a person rather a very limited couple of statements of his. You even accused Cam of claiming Carl was a liar, which, if I didn't skip the post in which he did because of lack of concentration, Cam didn't. It seemed to me your point was "How can you all doubt Carl?", as earlier it seemed to me your point was that it was proven Mike told Taylor about SMiLE being scrapped and that you were annoyed some of us didn't agree that it was proven. You even refused to give us the source for some time and for reasons beyond me. Also it seemed to me that you got into a huff about Cam's theories as if everybody was buying them.

In short, your points may actually elude me because of all these emotional reactions of yours that sidetrack your argumentation.

[Micha]

Some of the Beach Boys (we know who...) have expressed concerns about the VDP lyrics being hard to relate to. Maybe Brian thinks they are, too. So, what do they do for Smiley Smile? They, er... STILL USE several tracks featuring VDP's lyrics.

It seems significant to me that we have SMiLE era lead vocals only for those songs that were reworked for Smiley: H&V, Vegetables, Wind Chimes, Wonderful. Obviously there was no problem with those lyrics. The unused tracks - CE, SU, DYLW - all have no 1966 lead vocals, maybe because those were the questioned lyrics.

Brian said, both at the time and many times later, that he junked SMiLE because of concerns about it 'not being right for the Beach Boys' or 'not being commercial enough'.

Well, that's just making excuses, or trying to deliver an official version of things to cloud what was going on behind the scenes. The point is that in the Smiley recording mode the other boys were working WITH Brian rather than FOR Brian.

[guitarfool2002]

What you wrote here:
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but every human being is fallible and there is nobody whose every word can be taken as gospel. Everybody's statements have to be checked for plausibility. That doesn't equal discrediting them completely.


That is EXACTLY what I have been saying too. Why you direct it at me who has been agreeing with exactly that principle instead of addressing those who are using one questionable line or one word to throw away everything a person said or wrote is something maybe you could answer for me

All right, here we go. This is my perception of things. I went back to read John Manning's post with the word "discredit", and he says:

Surely that "Smile is finished" statement effectively discredits some of what Carl had to say that day?

SOME of what Carl had to say THAT DAY. You then went into a kind of rant that seemed to me like a hissy fit about people trying to discredit Carl totally as a person rather a very limited couple of statements of his. You even accused Cam of claiming Carl was a liar, which, if I didn't skip the post in which he did because of lack of concentration, Cam didn't. It seemed to me your point was "How can you all doubt Carl?", as earlier it seemed to me your point was that it was proven Mike told Taylor about SMiLE being scrapped and that you were annoyed some of us didn't agree that it was proven. You even refused to give us the source for some time and for reasons beyond me. Also it seemed to me that you got into a huff about Cam's theories as if everybody was buying them.

In short, your points may actually elude me because of all these emotional reactions of yours that sidetrack your argumentation.

This is exactly what I said:

But if you choose to call Carl a liar and discredit everything he says, Cam

"if you choose". Make sure you read my words correctly before accusing me of something.

I'll engage a conversation but not with someone whose goal might be more personal than something related to discussing the information. As I've already said, if your goal in posting this is to distract those who want to talk about the topics being discussed or make it about me and whatever issues you have against me or the board's moderation or anything else related, it will not happen here.

If you're here to discuss the issues, I engaged you in that and you chose instead to again bring up personal gripes, complaints, and everything else to make it personal. Your actions are unwelcome and if you're concerned about respect being shown by board members, start showing it in your own actions.

Line drawn.

Now we can get back to talking about the Smile issues people want to read and discuss.