Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[filledeplage]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

[CenturyDeprived]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

While we indeed aren't privy to the internal stuff... do you honestly think it's logical to state that bandmate microagressions absolutely, unequivocally didn’t happen WHATSOEVER, and/or if they did happen, they had ZERO effect on Brian’s state of mind?

Wouldn't you say that they probably occurred, and they probably (along with all sorts of unrelated SMiLE-killing things, like technology) made a smidgen of impact on him? In all likelihood? Or is it gonna be a cop out that "we can't know". We're talking about logic here, and what is the MORE logical choice of the two (that they likely did occur and made at least a tiny bit of impact, or that they never ever occurred nor made any impact W H A T S O E V E R).
 
Please don't duck the question! You can choose logic! It is possible! Choosing logic doesn't mean you are passing judgment on anyone either.

[SMiLE Brian]

She is using the same method of denial Mike Love uses when hiding from the truth of being a microagressor.

[filledeplage]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

While we indeed aren't privy to the internal stuff... do you honestly think it's logical to state that bandmate microagressions absolutely, unequivocally didn’t happen WHATSOEVER, and/or if they did happen, they had ZERO effect on Brian’s state of mind?

Wouldn't you say that they probably occurred, and they probably (along with all sorts of unrelated SMiLE-killing things, like technology) made a smidgen of impact on him? In all likelihood? Or is it gonna be a cop out that "we can't know". We're talking about logic here, and what is the MORE logical choice of the two (that they likely did occur and had at least a tiny bit of impact, or that they never ever occurred nor had any impact whatsoever). Please don't duck the question! You can choose logic! It is possible! Choosing logic doesn't mean you are passing judgment on anyone either.

CD  - family-based companies, face particular challenges. 

They have huge benefits because no one will will put in that extra time the way you will do for a family member.  It is more likely that you will stay together, and more likely that this band stayed together longer than the Beatles because they are family. 

The challenge is to separate those other factors out.  Ignore them, until you are finished with the job. 

Look at Dennis for example.  Did anyone take him seriously at first, when he started recording?  It took a while to accept that the oldest was not in that role, on that day.  It was the middle child who had to go get his r-e-s-p-e-c-t.  Later it was each one of them

When you are doing the job, you become co-workers.  These guy were in a job role.     

[filledeplage]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

While we indeed aren't privy to the internal stuff... do you honestly think it's logical to state that bandmate microagressions absolutely, unequivocally didn’t happen WHATSOEVER, and/or if they did happen, they had ZERO effect on Brian’s state of mind?

Wouldn't you say that they probably occurred, and they probably (along with all sorts of unrelated SMiLE-killing things, like technology) made a smidgen of impact on him? In all likelihood? Or is it gonna be a cop out that "we can't know". We're talking about logic here, and what is the MORE logical choice of the two (that they likely did occur and made at least a tiny bit of impact, or that they never ever occurred nor made any impact W H A T S O E V E R).
 
Please don't duck the question! You can choose logic! It is possible! Choosing logic doesn't mean you are passing judgment on anyone either.

CD - I am not ducking the question and I think you are clouding the issue.  I am looking only at work product and why it did not get released.   

Nothing more, nothing less.     I don't care if they sang Kumbaya. 

[filledeplage]

She is using the same method of denial Mike Love uses when hiding from the truth of being a microagressor.

Seriously, Smile Brian - that is a distractor from the reason the LP did not get released.

Are you making apologies for Taylor or maybe even Murry, if he was behind this? 

[Micha]

You don't have to be senile to misremember something after 50 years. Or maybe I am senile because in my less than 50 years of life I have found to have been misremembering numerous times.

The weird thing to me is why, after the publication of the article in the UK and they continuing to tour there, why some journalist wouldn't have asked them about the scrapped pronouncement.  Were the journalists also unaware of this brief paragraph in the article about the tour?  And if they were unaware, it's not a stretch to think the Boys never saw it either.

And if the journalists did see it, did they judge it as earth-shattering as we do?

While we indeed aren't privy to the internal stuff... do you honestly think it's logical to state that bandmate microagressions absolutely, unequivocally didn’t happen WHATSOEVER, and/or if they did happen, they had ZERO effect on Brian’s state of mind?

Very few people do think so, I guess. In the Williams dialogue it was stated there was negative things from all directions, including from the boys.

But, as it seems on most internet discussions, asking to treat others respectfully is asking too much.

Good advice to follow. Try it.

I'm pretty sure I am. Did you perceive my criticism of your mindset as condescending?

[CenturyDeprived]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

While we indeed aren't privy to the internal stuff... do you honestly think it's logical to state that bandmate microagressions absolutely, unequivocally didn’t happen WHATSOEVER, and/or if they did happen, they had ZERO effect on Brian’s state of mind?

Wouldn't you say that they probably occurred, and they probably (along with all sorts of unrelated SMiLE-killing things, like technology) made a smidgen of impact on him? In all likelihood? Or is it gonna be a cop out that "we can't know". We're talking about logic here, and what is the MORE logical choice of the two (that they likely did occur and made at least a tiny bit of impact, or that they never ever occurred nor made any impact W H A T S O E V E R).
 
Please don't duck the question! You can choose logic! It is possible! Choosing logic doesn't mean you are passing judgment on anyone either.

CD - I am not ducking the question and I think you are clouding the issue.  I am looking only at work product and why it did not get released.    

Nothing more, nothing less.    I don't care if they sang Kumbaya.  

So... to recap:

I asked you, OF THE TWO, either that

a) bandmate microagressions (however justified they may have been) in all likelihood actually occurred (with Brian being the recipient), and that these microagressions maybe... just MAYBE... had even the smallest bit of impact on Brian's state of mind... or

b) that surely none of the above bandmate microagressions ever happened, nor could they possibly have had an iota of impact on Brian in the unlikely event that they actually occured.

You refuse to answer which is the most likely scenario OF THE TWO, yet state that you are "not ducking the question".  

Amazing. I'd like to know what WOULD constitute "ducking the question".

[Emily]

Something happened in those few weeks between when the Beach Boys returned home from Europe, did almost a week of sessions at Western and Sound Recorders on Vegetables that song where they left off in April, then suddenly they were running cables in Brian Wilson's living room and kitchen with rented gear. It was more than a suggestion that they make the record in Brian's house, whatever the "attitude and atmosphere" aspect might have been.

The problem with the month prior to that is the Beach Boys didn't seem to react at all, Brian was doing business as usual like he had been more or less, cutting tracks in the studio with the same people and sounds, everyone operating as if the word that the project had been scrapped had never been published.

So we assume the project they were all talking about as if it were still being worked on and coming out, and were still in fact working on, had in reality already been "scrapped" sometime in April or earlier, or had been "scrapped" based on Derek Taylor's information as he published it, even though the band seemed to be unaware where that info came from, and Brian was still in the same studios with the same people he had been using the whole time, creating similar sounds to the point where *many* have speculated "Love To Say DaDa" was the missing "Air" element of that suite.

Find the logic in that scenario, and consider it's not even a scenario, it's how it played out as far as the timeline we all have available to study.

How do some think they should have reacted? How about any reaction at all to the news their album was dead in the water?

I think it makes sense (though it's too gray for certainty) that when the touring band got home they pressed forward with their intention to change the paradigm. I also think it made sense that they thought "nothing's changed; still working on the album" was a better PR message than "scrapped" and really, as DonnyL's comment illustrates, the same facts can be looked at two ways: old project/new project or one project with a paradigm shift.

[Emily]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

FdP, do you know if those videos are online? I haven't seen them.

[CenturyDeprived]

She is using the same method of denial Mike Love uses when hiding from the truth of being a microagressor.

Seriously, Smile Brian - that is a distractor from the reason the LP did not get released.

But regardless, it's not untrue.

[Emily]

Microagressions are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project.

I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project are just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  That makes no sense. A project that took an eternity to work on (and never got completed) involving all sorts of weird stuff, animal noises, non-commercial songs, etc. was of COURSE gonna make some bandmates pissed and non-supportive AT SOME POINTS ALONG THE WAY. People don't hold emotions like that in 100%; those emotions were gonna leak out. They were and are human, and in the case of at least one band member, not necessarily the likely recipient of the 1966 Tact Award®.

I agree with this. I also don't write off the possibility of macroaggressions. It's pretty easy to conclude that these guys haven't always had the healthiest relationships.

[filledeplage]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

While we indeed aren't privy to the internal stuff... do you honestly think it's logical to state that bandmate microagressions absolutely, unequivocally didn’t happen WHATSOEVER, and/or if they did happen, they had ZERO effect on Brian’s state of mind?

Wouldn't you say that they probably occurred, and they probably (along with all sorts of unrelated SMiLE-killing things, like technology) made a smidgen of impact on him? In all likelihood? Or is it gonna be a cop out that "we can't know". We're talking about logic here, and what is the MORE logical choice of the two (that they likely did occur and made at least a tiny bit of impact, or that they never ever occurred nor made any impact W H A T S O E V E R).
 
Please don't duck the question! You can choose logic! It is possible! Choosing logic doesn't mean you are passing judgment on anyone either.

CD - I am not ducking the question and I think you are clouding the issue.  I am looking only at work product and why it did not get released.    

Nothing more, nothing less.    I don't care if they sang Kumbaya.  

So... to recap:

I asked you, OF THE TWO, either that

a) bandmate microagressions (however justified they may have been) in all likelihood actually occurred (with Brian being the recipient), and that these microagressions maybe... just MAYBE... had even the smallest bit of impact on Brian's state of mind... or

b) that surely none of the above bandmate microagressions ever happened, nor could they possibly have had an iota of impact on Brian in the unlikely event that they actually occured.

You refuse to answer which is the most likely scenario OF THE TWO, and state that you are "not ducking the question".  

Amazing.

You bet I am not responding because it is not about the people involved.  This is about outside influence.

First,  I saw Inside Pop. Definite plug for Smile.

Second, I read the newspapers and saw the TV reports, the outside stressors of Carl's arrest.  That was an outside influence.

Third, they did not get to control the UK tour.  Outside influence.

Fourth, the LP is not released.  Outside influence.

That has zero to do with personalities and all about power and control from an outside influence.    

[filledeplage]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

FdP, do you know if those videos are online? I haven't seen them.

They were under Smile 2011 or something similar on youtube.

[SMiLE Brian]

She is using the same method of denial Mike Love uses when hiding from the truth of being a microagressor.

Seriously, Smile Brian - that is a distractor from the reason the LP did not get released.

But regardless, it's not untrue.

Exactly, Mike bullying VDP was the first microagression before the blow up with BW.

[filledeplage]

Something happened in those few weeks between when the Beach Boys returned home from Europe, did almost a week of sessions at Western and Sound Recorders on Vegetables that song where they left off in April, then suddenly they were running cables in Brian Wilson's living room and kitchen with rented gear. It was more than a suggestion that they make the record in Brian's house, whatever the "attitude and atmosphere" aspect might have been.

The problem with the month prior to that is the Beach Boys didn't seem to react at all, Brian was doing business as usual like he had been more or less, cutting tracks in the studio with the same people and sounds, everyone operating as if the word that the project had been scrapped had never been published.

So we assume the project they were all talking about as if it were still being worked on and coming out, and were still in fact working on, had in reality already been "scrapped" sometime in April or earlier, or had been "scrapped" based on Derek Taylor's information as he published it, even though the band seemed to be unaware where that info came from, and Brian was still in the same studios with the same people he had been using the whole time, creating similar sounds to the point where *many* have speculated "Love To Say DaDa" was the missing "Air" element of that suite.

Find the logic in that scenario, and consider it's not even a scenario, it's how it played out as far as the timeline we all have available to study.

How do some think they should have reacted? How about any reaction at all to the news their album was dead in the water?

I think it makes sense (though it's too gray for certainty) that when the touring band got home they pressed forward with their intention to change the paradigm. I also think it made sense that they thought "nothing's changed; still working on the album" was a better PR message than "scrapped" and really, as DonnyL's comment illustrates, the same facts can be looked at two ways: old project/new project or one project with a paradigm shift.

Emily - this just sets the whole thing up for a philosophical discussion and does not uncover who pulled the plug on the project.  Read what Andrew wrote yesterday.  Who had the motivation and the ability to do it. Or something that I am not quoting (haha) but paraphrasing.

[CenturyDeprived]

We know, now, there was more than one publicist was involved.  We know that the tour was a TIKH tour.  We know that the public statements about the tour by the band including Brian, Mike and Bruce were negative and that the public statements from all the band were uniformly positive.  We know what they said in Paris (Gaumont.)  We know what Dennis said to Peter Fornatale.  We know how happy they look during the recording of Smile.  It does not square in any credible manner (for me) with the nonsense that was advanced by their PR people.

So, I am thinking (just for myself) that there is real progress debunking this blame-game, that was spread to perhaps every member of the band, where they were blameless.  The stories out there are inconsistent and don't pass the smell-test.  (Mine, anyway) JMHO        

Regarding the footage: firstly, the footage of the Boys was surely staged. They knew the cameras were rolling. Of course they were gonna put on smiles. Just like a photo session. Doesn't mean they never smiled during the album, but it proves zilch about the general frame of mind. I bet there were no smiles when Mike confronted Van about Cabinessence lyrics... unless you might count nervous smiles ("smiles" that I've seen both Mike and Brian make over the years) as actual "happy" smiles?

Secondly, I believe the footage in question you are referring to is Good Vibrations, right? This is a song where Mike already (presumably) had songwriting input at the time this was filmed, so right off the bat, he (just for one) was likely going to be happier working on that tune, more so than tunes that were more “out there”. Not that GV wasn’t “out there” too, but there were much more extreme examples of “out there”  songs on that project that would have probably led to irksome facial expressions.

Bottom line: it’s preposterous IMO to judge that video as some sort of barometer for the final story of how Brian’s bandmates were or weren’t giving him bad vibes. Ditto for session tapes. Those are but a glimpse of the interactions the guys had together at the time.

How about you address the possibility of microagressions? They are not negligible, and I don’t know why a small contingent of people illogically insist it’s impossible that they could have repeatedly been unloaded on Brian in all sorts of small ways that could have built up over the course of the project. I’m not saying that’s the entire reason it was scrapped either – however, cumulative bandmate microagressions aimed at Brian about the SMiLE project is just not something that can be written off as absolutely not in any way, shape or form relevant to his frame of mind at the time.  

CD - the videos I looked at today were from the SMiLE box set video promos - and didn't look like the "we are on TV" stuff but more candid and not posed for.  Don't have time now but will look later or tomorrow.  They did not look like GV.  Some of these, I had not seen.

The whole lawsuit thing, I can't speculate about because I have not seen the docs.  

This concept of micro-aggressions, or value judgments, goes into what we tried ( I did) to stay away from and that is the internal stuff to which we were not privy.  I don't know of organizations where people agree on everything.  And, I won't be relying on a teen magazine, either one I would have bought at age of 11 or one that the record company advanced.  The news accounts and press releases are inconsistent.  

This band was working for each other.  By that I mean that Brian was working at home, composing, and the band was working in the field, performing.  If they had a crappy performance, he would have (or perhaps should have had ) every right to work with them on rehearsals.   From what I have seen during C50, Brian was still very much in charge of how they sounded on tour.  By the same token the members would have a say on some aspects of the music.  They were vested in the same company.    

While we indeed aren't privy to the internal stuff... do you honestly think it's logical to state that bandmate microagressions absolutely, unequivocally didn’t happen WHATSOEVER, and/or if they did happen, they had ZERO effect on Brian’s state of mind?

Wouldn't you say that they probably occurred, and they probably (along with all sorts of unrelated SMiLE-killing things, like technology) made a smidgen of impact on him? In all likelihood? Or is it gonna be a cop out that "we can't know". We're talking about logic here, and what is the MORE logical choice of the two (that they likely did occur and made at least a tiny bit of impact, or that they never ever occurred nor made any impact W H A T S O E V E R).
 
Please don't duck the question! You can choose logic! It is possible! Choosing logic doesn't mean you are passing judgment on anyone either.

CD - I am not ducking the question and I think you are clouding the issue.  I am looking only at work product and why it did not get released.    

Nothing more, nothing less.    I don't care if they sang Kumbaya.  

So... to recap:

I asked you, OF THE TWO, either that

a) bandmate microagressions (however justified they may have been) in all likelihood actually occurred (with Brian being the recipient), and that these microagressions maybe... just MAYBE... had even the smallest bit of impact on Brian's state of mind... or

b) that surely none of the above bandmate microagressions ever happened, nor could they possibly have had an iota of impact on Brian in the unlikely event that they actually occured.

You refuse to answer which is the most likely scenario OF THE TWO, and state that you are "not ducking the question".  

Amazing.

You bet I am not responding because it is not about the people involved.  This is about outside influence.

First,  I saw Inside Pop. Definite plug for Smile.

Second, I read the newspapers and saw the TV reports, the outside stressors of Carl's arrest.  That was an outside influence.

Third, they did not get to control the UK tour.  Outside influence.

Fourth, the LP is not released.  Outside influence.

That has zero to do with personalities and all about power and control from an outside influence.    

All of those items you stated are not non-issues; they are all parts of the puzzle for sure.  

But how does that negate bandmate microagressions? Are you saying that if they occurred, well it doesn't matter because the project was gonna fail regardless?  If that's your opinion, fair enough, but just say so, because you seem to completely fail to address the remote possibility that they even happened (regardless of how much they impacted the project ultimately).

It isn't hard for me to directly address each and every thing you mention. It would be nice if you returned the favor.

[filledeplage]

CD - they are the prime issues for me. 

It is not personal. 

Who pulled the plug?

Reasonable minds can differ. 

[CenturyDeprived]

She is using the same method of denial Mike Love uses when hiding from the truth of being a microagressor.

Seriously, Smile Brian - that is a distractor from the reason the LP did not get released.

But regardless, it's not untrue.

Exactly, Mike bullying VDP was the first known microagression before the blow up with BW.

Fixed that for ya

[SMiLE Brian]

 

[CenturyDeprived]

And again... lest I be accused of being blindly one-sided... I can genuinely empathize with Mike, and I can understand how a young guy in his position might have acted that way. It sucks, I wish it didn't happen in the manner that it did, but we can't change it. Empathy is not in short supply here.

What I am short on is patience for absurd history rewriting attempts, which are best exemplified in this thread by some of the most incredible, brazen displays of question-dodging attempts I've ever seen, which accomplish accruing absolutely no "points" for the absolving-all-bandmates-for-any-role-whatsoever-in-SMiLE's-demise camp.

I've learned a lot due to knowledgeable posters on this board (across the BB political spectrum) when it comes to nuance about the SMiLE era (ie. that many non-bandmate factors hugely impacted the project). But posters like FDP who outright duck questions only serve to inadvertently cause that type of nuance to be diminished in the minds of many budding young fans eager to learn more details about the band. Everyone sees through that, and can tell that question dodging = something not right with the logic.

[SMiLE Brian]

That is the whole gist of the problem, using the answers of 2016 M&B as gospel and refusing to answer anything else.

[CenturyDeprived]

CD - they are the prime issues for me.  

It is not personal.  

Who pulled the plug?

Reasonable minds can differ.  

Maybe you missed the part where I said "regardless of how much they [microagressions] impacted the project ultimately".

 

[jiggityjars]

edit

[guitarfool2002]

Excerpts from "The Beach Boys' Quickest Album" , LA Times, October 8th 1967:

"Well, the album didn't really head for any direction. We just decided to, or I should say Brian decided to, make a real simple album. So, with that in mind, we recorded it at his house and it's the quickest album we've ever done." (Carl Wilson quote)

"You see, the whole thing is that 'Pet Sounds' was really an expanded type of musical thing. It's really quite a musical album and we got into a thing where we just wanted to ease up and make a simple album. It was a nice change. It's very hard on a person to keep on doing a 'Pet Sounds.'" (Carl Wilson quote)

Last year, when "Good Vibrations" was racking up its million-plus sales, Capitol had the follow-up album scheduled under the title of "Smile." The album jacket already had been printed, a picture of a shop which dispensed smiles. But the album never came out and the Beach Boys became embroiled in a royalty suit against Capitol. Rumors said that Brian, a perfectionist, had destroyed all the tapes for the LP. "We didn't scrap them," Carl said. "We just haven't used them yet. We did it all from scratch when we started again. We actually had finished the album but then a lot of things didn't turn out the way Brian liked. We all didn't agree on different types of things. We decided to do something new."

"If he gets an idea it's now and it's better than something from the past. I've seen it a hundred times. We've seen a lot of potentially great songs just be shelved. They come out maybe two or three years later, but they're in his mind somehow. If that particular idea seems to fit what he's working on at the time it will just come naturally." (Mike Love quote)

*This* is why I cannot understand wanting to shut this or similar discussions down. This is relevant info that cuts to the chase and gets to the core issues and questions some of us have been discussing.

Carl Wilson, in Fall 1967 after the release of Smiley Smile says the following (in bold and italics in my re-quote):

- They did not "scrap" Smile, despite what Taylor's May 6th article said.

- They had parts which they just haven't used yet, suggesting some of the Smile material may still see the light of day in some form (backed up by various Capitol memos from the months prior as well)

- They had finished the album in some way and at some point, which backs up the Altham piece from late April where he wrote the "12 tracks are finished"

- They did not all agree on some things...anyone's guess what those were.

- They decided to do something new, and started from scratch, exact words according to Carl. *Not* continue "Smile", not have what they were doing with Smile transition seamlessly into Smiley Smile as some are suggesting, but rather start from scratch and start something new. There isn't much of a way to parse or twist Carl's own description to suggest Smile just morphed into Smiley Smile by June 1967 without a definite start and end point when he says they "started from scratch" and recorded this new album which was Smiley Smile.

Further, Carl again suggests the actual "Smile" material was not scrapped and might still be coming out, i.e. "we just haven't used them yet".


So much for shutting down the discussion because everything we needed to see was already on the table.

Thanks for posting the quotes. It opened up a very large door to allow information to be entered into the discussion coming direct from a Beach Boy, and Carl the Beach Boy perhaps closest to the music besides Brian in 1967, who made these comments in the Fall of 1967 when it was still current business for the band.

And in light of what Carl said, consider taking an even closer look at what could have happened in the weeks between the Beach Boys returning home from the May 67 tour in Europe and the move to recording in Brian's house in mid June, and what during that time caused the entire focus and direction of the band and the Smile project to shift dramatically in such a relatively short period of time.