Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[filledeplage]

If the main tracks as we have become familiar with were released, I cannot imagine them fitting on one LP, even purely for counting the minutes. 

It would likely mean leaving off longer tracks such as GV, which was an anchor.  One single track? It might have been a new model...but if you are dividing "elements" concepts, it seems difficult to do.  Aren't medleys (entirely different songs) sort of blended in that manner?  Someone with the sound engineering background might be able to answer that question which might be a dumb one.

The double LP concept was one that was a very new in 1967. LPs were often used for classical music and Broadway shows or soundtracks for movies for the capacity to offer a more complete work. And it sure beat flipping over a bunch of 45s.  But,  what seemed lacking was "confidence" in the project to make a go of it, and not that it lacked quality.  It would have been bold. 

How many hours of material did Brian record for "Good Vibrations"? Yet that single didn't even run two sides. Brian would have made Smile fit on two sides of a mid-60's vinyl lp, period. The kitchen sink mixes are a fun take and some fans have made some really entertaining ones but that's all they are: Fan mixes.

Brian knew Smile was 12 songs (give or take), he even knew which songs. He knew the puzzle, he knew the size of the puzzle. His only problem with Smile, the reason it took several decades to finish, is he wasn't able to narrow which pieces belonged in the puzzle and which ones didn't.

My personal Smile runs about 45 minutes and is quite similar than BWPS, excluding just "Look" and "Holidays". It would fit on a single album, with room to spare. My version of "The Elements" is one, four part song, that runs almost a minute less than my "Heroes And Villains. No second disc necessary.

GV was prepped and edited down for a 45 rpm single (which could have gone on Pet Sounds, and is on the Pet Sounds Sessions Box set.)  That has nothing to do with a Smile double LP, which might have been dynamite with the 'kitchen sink' left for the listener to interpret rather than the creators providing the interpretation. 

A double LP had the sheer "heft" that might have been a big draw for those between 12 and 18 or so, which would have been the purchaser's demographic in 1967, which is the benchmark I am using.  And by today's standard CD  of 75 minutes of play, an hour on 2 LP's might have gone over very nicely.  Bragging rights included. 

They did some "out there" things like Stack o' Tracks which was just backing tracks and sheet music about a year later.  It was primitive karaoke. 

[Cam Mott]

Re. Post SMiLE: Aren't we kind of ignoring the 600 lb. gorilla in the room? There are multiple documentations of the SMiLE track "Vega-tables" (and one demo recording) and no documentations of "Vegetables" for SMiLE.  There are multiple documentations and recordings for the Smiley Smile track "Vegetables" and none of a "Vega-tables" Smiley track. "Vega-tables" is on the SMiLE album track list and "Vegetables" is not.  "Vegetables" is on the Smiley Smile track list and "Vega-tables" is not.

Recordings for "Vegetables" began on April 4 1967, well before the announcement published on May 6 1967.

[filledeplage]

Re. Post SMiLE: Aren't we kind of ignoring the 600 lb. gorilla in the room? There are multiple documentations of the SMiLE track "Vega-tables" (and one demo recording) and no documentations "Vegetables" for SMiLE.  There are multiple documentations and recordings for the Smiley Smile track "Vegetables" and none of a "Vega-tables" Smiley track. "Vega-tables" is on the SMiLE album track list and "Vegetables" is not.  "Vegetables" is on the Smiley Smile track list and "Vega-tables" is not.

Recordings for "Vegetables" began on April 4 1967 well before the announcement of May 6 1967.

Cam - that May, 1967 is in the beginning of the European tour where they are marketed as a surf band.  I wonder how much was "exasperation" with that "surprise" - one full year post Pet Sounds?

And, I am unconvinced of firm "time lines" with this project.  When people are in a creative "zone" it is not turned on and off like a light switch.  Just sayin.'  It could have been a case of "overload" all the way around, with Carl's arrest, and other factors.   

[guitarfool2002]

Re. Post SMiLE: Aren't we kind of ignoring the 600 lb. gorilla in the room? There are multiple documentations of the SMiLE track "Vega-tables" (and one demo recording) and no documentations "Vegetables" for SMiLE.  There are multiple documentations and recordings for the Smiley Smile track "Vegetables" and none of a "Vega-tables" Smiley track. "Vega-tables" is on the SMiLE album track list and "Vegetables" is not.  "Vegetables" is on the Smiley Smile track list and "Vega-tables" is not.

Recordings for "Vegetables" began on April 4 1967 well before the announcement of May 6 1967.

That 600 lb. gorilla might be getting obscured by the 6 ton elephant standing in the same room. His name is "Logic".

[guitarfool2002]

Altham in NME was reporting what he heard from Brian Wilson, that the 12 tracks were ready to go.

Taylor in Disc & Music Echo issue dated roughly 7 days after the Altham article was reporting the album was scrapped.

Where did Taylor get his information?

Word is...Taylor's info didn't come from Brian.

Where did it come from then?

Well, NME was a weekly publication, so even considering its publication being based on another continent, this indicates a pretty narrow window between 'twelve tracks are ready to go' and 'the album is scrapped'. Add in GF's inference that it wasn't Brian who called 'scrapped' on the record, and I'm more deeply intrigued by the events of late-April than I ever thought I might be.

Where or who did it come from?

Apparently Mike Love said it to Derek Taylor. The band was in England as part of their European tour, first week of May '67 that included the NME Poll Winners concert that was getting good coverage in the UK music press, front page actually in a few cases. Taylor was involved in the PR for that trip and got the info from Mike then published it. It was premature considering Brian had just told Altham the album's 12-tracks would be ready for a rush release.

[filledeplage]

Altham in NME was reporting what he heard from Brian Wilson, that the 12 tracks were ready to go.

Taylor in Disc & Music Echo issue dated roughly 7 days after the Altham article was reporting the album was scrapped.

Where did Taylor get his information?

Word is...Taylor's info didn't come from Brian.

Where did it come from then?

Well, NME was a weekly publication, so even considering its publication being based on another continent, this indicates a pretty narrow window between 'twelve tracks are ready to go' and 'the album is scrapped'. Add in GF's inference that it wasn't Brian who called 'scrapped' on the record, and I'm more deeply intrigued by the events of late-April than I ever thought I might be.

Where or who did it come from?

Apparently Mike Love said it to Derek Taylor. The band was in England as part of their European tour, first week of May '67 that included the NME Poll Winners concert that was getting good coverage in the UK music press, front page actually in a few cases. Taylor was involved in the PR for that trip and got the info from Mike then published it. It was premature considering Brian had just told Altham the album's 12-tracks would be ready for a rush release.

GF - I am trying to think this through logically. 

Since there was a BRI board at that time, which was established for more creative control, in existence for around a year, with voting members, wouldn't something as important as a new release have to be approached democratically, say, with advice, discussion, and a vote? 

Just sayin'.   

[guitarfool2002]

Altham in NME was reporting what he heard from Brian Wilson, that the 12 tracks were ready to go.

Taylor in Disc & Music Echo issue dated roughly 7 days after the Altham article was reporting the album was scrapped.

Where did Taylor get his information?

Word is...Taylor's info didn't come from Brian.

Where did it come from then?

Well, NME was a weekly publication, so even considering its publication being based on another continent, this indicates a pretty narrow window between 'twelve tracks are ready to go' and 'the album is scrapped'. Add in GF's inference that it wasn't Brian who called 'scrapped' on the record, and I'm more deeply intrigued by the events of late-April than I ever thought I might be.

Where or who did it come from?

Apparently Mike Love said it to Derek Taylor. The band was in England as part of their European tour, first week of May '67 that included the NME Poll Winners concert that was getting good coverage in the UK music press, front page actually in a few cases. Taylor was involved in the PR for that trip and got the info from Mike then published it. It was premature considering Brian had just told Altham the album's 12-tracks would be ready for a rush release.

GF - I am trying to think this through logically. 

Since there was a BRI board at that time, which was established for more creative control, in existence for around a year, with voting members, wouldn't something as important as a new release have to be approached democratically, say, with advice, discussion, and a vote? 

Just sayin'.   

That should have been the case, you'd think. In this case of Mike telling the UK music journalist Derek Taylor (who also happened to be working publicity for the band's tour of the UK) that the group's forthcoming album which had been reported the previous week was ready to go for rush promotion had instead been "scrapped", he spoke before any of that advice/discussion/vote happened, apparently.

[AndrewHickey]

Since there was a BRI board at that time, which was established for more creative control, in existence for around a year, with voting members, wouldn't something as important as a new release have to be approached democratically, say, with advice, discussion, and a vote? 

This seems to be making a few unfounded assumptions, at least to me. The existence of a BRI board (which of course at that time would have consisted only of Mike and the Wilson brothers, not the other two band members) doesn't necessarily imply decisions have to be made democratically. It's perfectly plausible that band members were given areas of responsibility where they didn't have to consult the other members -- Brian might have been given total control over recordings, Carl over setlists, and so on. Without access to BRI's corporate decision-making process in 1967, we can't assume that things would be subject to democratic vote.

(Indeed, do we know that BRI owned the Beach Boys' name yet at that point, or did it get transferred later?)

[filledeplage]

Since there was a BRI board at that time, which was established for more creative control, in existence for around a year, with voting members, wouldn't something as important as a new release have to be approached democratically, say, with advice, discussion, and a vote? 

This seems to be making a few unfounded assumptions, at least to me. The existence of a BRI board (which of course at that time would have consisted only of Mike and the Wilson brothers, not the other two band members) doesn't necessarily imply decisions have to be made democratically. It's perfectly plausible that band members were given areas of responsibility where they didn't have to consult the other members -- Brian might have been given total control over recordings, Carl over setlists, and so on. Without access to BRI's corporate decision-making process in 1967, we can't assume that things would be subject to democratic vote.

(Indeed, do we know that BRI owned the Beach Boys' name yet at that point, or did it get transferred later?)

Andrew H. - Not really - if the prime reason for the incorporation was "artistic control decision-making," it would seem to make little sense that any major decisions concerning releases, would have been done in a vacuum or without consensus. 

It is doubtful to me that in that high profile 2-week eventful time window of Carl's arrest, release, and travel to the UK, Inside Pop Brian (taped) appearance, that there were no overseas calls between and among corporate band members. I am making no assumptions but looking at the events as reported. 

That one band member says it is a "go," and one says it is a "no," is just not credible to me. 

[guitarfool2002]

That's exactly what happened. That's how in the span of a week, it was reported that the album was being readied for rush promotion, 12 tracks ready. Then Mike tells Derek Taylor in the UK something different, and it's now "scrapped".

[Cam Mott]

Altham in NME was reporting what he heard from Brian Wilson, that the 12 tracks were ready to go.

Taylor in Disc & Music Echo issue dated roughly 7 days after the Altham article was reporting the album was scrapped.

Where did Taylor get his information?

Word is...Taylor's info didn't come from Brian.

Where did it come from then?

Well, NME was a weekly publication, so even considering its publication being based on another continent, this indicates a pretty narrow window between 'twelve tracks are ready to go' and 'the album is scrapped'. Add in GF's inference that it wasn't Brian who called 'scrapped' on the record, and I'm more deeply intrigued by the events of late-April than I ever thought I might be.

Where or who did it come from?

Apparently Mike Love said it to Derek Taylor. The band was in England as part of their European tour, first week of May '67 that included the NME Poll Winners concert that was getting good coverage in the UK music press, front page actually in a few cases. Taylor was involved in the PR for that trip and got the info from Mike then published it. It was premature considering Brian had just told Altham the album's 12-tracks would be ready for a rush release.

GF - I am trying to think this through logically. 

Since there was a BRI board at that time, which was established for more creative control, in existence for around a year, with voting members, wouldn't something as important as a new release have to be approached democratically, say, with advice, discussion, and a vote? 

Just sayin'.   

That should have been the case, you'd think. In this case of Mike telling the UK music journalist Derek Taylor (who also happened to be working publicity for the band's tour of the UK) that the group's forthcoming album which had been reported the previous week was ready to go for rush promotion had instead been "scrapped", he spoke before any of that advice/discussion/vote happened, apparently.

What is the source of this info?

[filledeplage]

That's exactly what happened. That's how in the span of a week, it was reported that the album was being readied for rush promotion, 12 tracks ready. Then Mike tells Derek Taylor in the UK something different, and it's now "scrapped".

But - GF that conflicts with the video interview, done in the mid-70's with Brian who says that "he" (chucked it) for a while since he got so "next to it."

Was Derek accompanying them in the UK?  

[Andrew G. Doe]

The timeline doesn't hold up. The first mention of any cancellation was the May 2nd edition of Disc & Music Echo. Also... Mike "apparently" said ? Won't fly, Orville: either he did or he didn't.

[guitarfool2002]

The timeline doesn't hold up for the exact time Derek Taylor was working as the band's publicist and promoting the Beach Boys shows/tour in the UK that May? Go through the interviews and articles from that exact time, who was being quoted making the press rounds and who was the point man working with Taylor among the touring band members? It wasn't Carl, he had his hands full with the federal government on the draft issue, and he missed appearances on that UK tour due to that until he flew in late to the UK to join them.

[Andrew G. Doe]

That's exactly what happened. That's how in the span of a week, it was reported that the album was being readied for rush promotion, 12 tracks ready. Then Mike tells Derek Taylor in the UK something different, and it's now "scrapped".

Except we now know the album wasn't anything like ready, and that twelve tracks were most definitely not completed by then. So, inaccurate info... and now it's not "apparently": Mike did tell Taylor. Source for this ?

[guitarfool2002]

The Disc and Music Echo issue was May 6, 1967.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Currently away from my research library, will check when I get back tomorrow... but May 2nd has long been associated with the Taylor statement. Of course, I could be wrong. Have been before. 

[Cam Mott]

The timeline doesn't hold up for the exact time Derek Taylor was working as the band's publicist and promoting the Beach Boys shows/tour in the UK that May? Go through the interviews and articles from that exact time, who was being quoted making the press rounds and who was the point man working with Taylor among the touring band members? It wasn't Carl, he had his hands full with the federal government on the draft issue, and he missed appearances on that UK tour due to that until he flew in late to the UK to join them.

It seems to me that Taylor has said he had a limited length contract, 3 to 6 months maybe, beginning with promotion of Pet Sounds. Also he has said something like that he made a 1967 New Years' resolution to let contracts lapse or quit or otherwise get out of that business and his clients. Which I think he later made an exception to maybe.  All from memory, don't trust it, I'll try to find it.

[Emily]

The timeline doesn't hold up for the exact time Derek Taylor was working as the band's publicist and promoting the Beach Boys shows/tour in the UK that May? Go through the interviews and articles from that exact time, who was being quoted making the press rounds and who was the point man working with Taylor among the touring band members? It wasn't Carl, he had his hands full with the federal government on the draft issue, and he missed appearances on that UK tour due to that until he flew in late to the UK to join them.

It seems to me that Taylor has said he had a limited length contract, 3 to 6 months maybe, beginning with promotion of Pet Sounds. Also he has said something like that he made a 1967 New Years' resolution to let contracts lapse or quit or otherwise get out of that business and his clients. Which I think he later made an exception to maybe.  All from memory, don't trust it, I'll try to find it.

I don't know what his contract with the Beach Boys was, but he stayed and worked in LA as a publicist until 1968 when he accepted the job of Press Officer for Apple Corps.

[Cam Mott]

Currently away from my research library, will check when I get back tomorrow... but May 2nd has long been associated with the Taylor statement. Of course, I could be wrong. Have been before. 

The announcement hit the streets the 6th but probably Taylor was told by........whomever .......by the 2nd or the 25th of April to make publication on the 6th. The actual decision could have been made and acted on much earlier, like sayyyyyyyy by April 4th for instance when Brian actually recorded a track of Smiley provenance. All else could be some degree of suing-our-label subterfuge or wishful thinking from Capitol or republishing what was last known.

[Jeff]

I know that Keith Badman's book has been shown to be wrong in many cases, but this is the timeline according to him:

4/29: "From his desk in Los Angeles, Derek Taylor announces in Disc that 'Vegetables' will be the next single.  He writes: 'All the 12 songs for the new Beach Boys album are now completed and with every indication that the group's dispute with Capitol Records is over, there are plans to release the album on a rush schedule at any moment.  A rough draft of the cover depicts a nursery-like drawing of a smile shop, where people can go in and buy their smiles and grins to size.'  ...  A press release from Taylor dated today and appearing in both Record Mirror and New Musical Express reveals that 'Heroes and Villains' has been held up 'due to technical difficulties.  There is a new single in the wind.  ...  The title of the new Beach Boys single, 'Vegetables', is a light and lyrical, day to day, green grocery song on which Al Jardine sings a most vigorous lead.  The other side is 'Wonderful', which I only heard improvised at the piano with the boys humming the theme for Paul [McCartney]'."

5/6: "Today's Disc & Music Echo reports Taylor saying: 'In truth, every beautifully designed, finely wrought inspirationally-welded piece of music ... has been SCRAPPED'."

5/11: "Gold Star studio (A), Los Angeles, CA.  Back in California, unaffected (and possibly invigorated by) Taylor's statement of the 6th, Brian returns to the studio and 'sweetens' his March 2nd mixdown of 'Heroes and Villains'."

5/16, 5/17, 5/18: ILTSDD sessions.

5/19: ILTSDD session (cancelled).

6/3: Recording of Smiley Smile begins.
 

[Alan Smith]

That's exactly what happened. That's how in the span of a week, it was reported that the album was being readied for rush promotion, 12 tracks ready. Then Mike tells Derek Taylor in the UK something different, and it's now "scrapped".

While its a logical assumption Mike broke the news, surely Derek Taylor would have confirmed with the mothership before dropping a bomb like that, no matter who told him x.

[The_Holy_Bee]

I know that Keith Badman's book has been shown to be wrong in many cases, but this is the timeline according to him:

4/29: "From his desk in Los Angeles, Derek Taylor announces in Disc that 'Vegetables' will be the next single.  He writes: 'All the 12 songs for the new Beach Boys album are now completed and with every indication that the group's dispute with Capitol Records is over, there are plans to release the album on a rush schedule at any moment.  A rough draft of the cover depicts a nursery-like drawing of a smile shop, where people can go in and buy their smiles and grins to size.'  ...  A press release from Taylor dated today and appearing in both Record Mirror and New Musical Express reveals that 'Heroes and Villains' has been held up 'due to technical difficulties.  There is a new single in the wind.  ...  The title of the new Beach Boys single, 'Vegetables', is a light and lyrical, day to day, green grocery song on which Al Jardine sings a most vigorous lead.  The other side is 'Wonderful', which I only heard improvised at the piano with the boys humming the theme for Paul [McCartney]'."

5/6: "Today's Disc & Music Echo reports Taylor saying: 'In truth, every beautifully designed, finely wrought inspirationally-welded piece of music ... has been SCRAPPED'."

5/11: "Gold Star studio (A), Los Angeles, CA.  Back in California, unaffected (and possibly invigorated by) Taylor's statement of the 6th, Brian returns to the studio and 'sweetens' his March 2nd mixdown of 'Heroes and Villains'."

5/16, 5/17, 5/18: ILTSDD sessions.

5/19: ILTSDD session (cancelled).

6/3: Recording of Smiley Smile begins.

Thanks Jeff. Good to have fuller quotes in some context.

[Phoenix]

GV was prepped and edited down for a 45 rpm single (which could have gone on Pet Sounds, and is on the Pet Sounds Sessions Box set.)  That has nothing to do with a Smile double LP, which might have been dynamite with the 'kitchen sink' left for the listener to interpret rather than the creators providing the interpretation. 

The point is Brian recorded 90 HOURS of material for "Good Vibrations" and from those sessions, assembled a three and a half minute single, discarding far more from the sessions than he kept. He recorded Smile in the same, modular fashion, with the same "standard length" end game in mind. The volume of Smile recordings in no way points to the record being a double album because he never planned to use everything he recorded

[The_Holy_Bee]

The point is Brian recorded 90 HOURS of material for "Good Vibrations" and from those sessions, assembled a three and a half minute single, discarding far more from the sessions than he kept. He recorded Smile in the same, modular fashion, with the same "standard length" end game in mind. The volume of Smile recordings in no way points to the record being a double album because he never planned to use everything he recorded

Well, here's the thing. It may well be an entrenched position on my part (which I wrote about at length on a different thread several years ago), but I'm not convinced that the individual tracks for Smile - in '66, at least - were being approached in a similar style to GV. Modular recording (ie. one completed backing track for a verse, copied as many times as the song required, then dubbed with vocals), sure. But the evidence of the surviving edits, assemblies and recording logs suggest a far more concrete and considered approach to song structure.

One example: Cabin Essence, whatever the compositional origins of the three discrete musical sections, was entirely tracked in one day. I believe on the Durrie Parks acetates there is an alternate sequencing, but we also have a rough assembly done by Brian at that time which has the sections ordered in the same sequence as would eventually be heard on 20/20. Wind Chimes had a full assembly. 'Child' has a vintage edit. 'Wonderful'. 'Fire'. 'Cornucopia' Veggies. 'Worms'. Surf's Up has the solo recording, giving the structure (repeated, with added coda vocals, in 1972). There's an increasing likelihood even H&V (inc. IIGS and Barnyard) had a full sequence planned in October/November, at least.

The GV extended recording period, and 'mix'n'match' approach to sequencing the various sections, doesn't actually seem to have provided much of a precedent for Smile, at least according to the tape evidence we have. Go through the Dec '66 tracklisting, and the great majority of those listed were actually given pre-vocal edits/assemblies by Brian, which remained fairly consistent where there are multiple edits to compare. GV was a Frankenstein, going through at least two distinct lyrical iterations, the first provided by a (very talented) writer-for-hire and the second by a member of the band, at least one key part of which - according to that person - was actually conceived 'on the fly' in a car on the way to the studio. GV seems to have been as much a musical/textural/structural experiment as a formally-organised 'pop song' as they were typically composed in the sixties (or, indeed, now).

The SMiLE songs, or the great majority of them at least, appear to have been written by BW and VDP in a way GV simply wasn't. Sure, 'the verse of one might [have] become the bridge of another', but by the time Brian got them into studio, the data suggests he knew what went with where, and in what order. When I did my '66 Smile' mix (36 minutes all up), I was surprised to see just how little tracking material from that year proved extraneous - the 'Child' bridge, 'Da Da' recording, the first 'Wind Chimes', 'Heroes and Villians Intro - Early Version', 'Look' and 'Holidays', if I recall correctly. (Oh, and 'Speeches', but I actually used that as a bridge in 'Wonderful' - because it may have been recorded the same day, and I'm naughty.) Not including the re-recorded WC, and the abandoned bridge for 'Child' (not used in Brian's '66 assembly), less than 10 minutes all up.

Which brings me, really, to my fundamental belief about what happened to Smile, regardless of the potential causes for it (the band's possible disapproval; the legal wrangling with Capitol; Murray; drugs; growing tension between Brian and Van Dyke; Vietnam, I suppose): There was a more-or-less 'fully conceived' [Vosse] and roughly sequenced album, with fully structured and largely tracked songs, in the works in late '66, and this was derailed in December of that year. I think history and the recorded evidence suggests this more than it does the alternative.

The pressure for a single release that might meet or exceed the unexpected and enormous success of GV, and perhaps also to make it appear to Capitol that the band were attempting to meet the label's expectations in some measure, appears to have led to the H&V mania of Jan and Feb (Anderle/Williams; Vosse; the sessiongraphy). Then, after essentially a month's recording break - to drift closer to topic - a similar concentration in April on 'Vegetables', explicitly mentioned in at least one press clipping as a replacement for the now 'dumped' (by Brian) 'Heroes and Villians' single release.

The work on other album tracks during early '67 is pretty cursory - a 'Child' chorus here, a new take on 'Wonderful' (for the B-side of 'Veggies', according to Badman above) there - so surely one can either read this as meaning a) Brian was satisfied he had most of the tracks in the can from the '66 sessions (going from the Altham clipping of April 29) or b) the album was functionally dead in the new year, even if no one was quite willing to admit that yet (eventually confirmed by Taylor, May 6), and the majority of work was on potential A-side/B-side releases for the much-needed new single. Or both.

But none of it, I suggest, leads to the conclusion that there was enough material for a double album - or even a particularly long one - actually conceived and (instrumentally) tracked for the Smile album intended to see a Christmas '66 release date ('The Elements', probably, and 'I'm in Great Shape', possibly, aside). This we agree on. I just think GV is a red herring either way when considering Brian and Van Dyke's 'operational principles' in writing and recording Smile, according to all the data we do have.

As Van Dyke put it in the 'Beautiful Dreamer' doco, when describing the primary productive period: 'It was a very athletic situation.'