Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[Bicyclerider]

" And that was not the one they did on Smile. That was a post-Smile production."

So what is the "one they did on Smile?"  He is talking about the one on the Smile sessions box?  And this one in April he was working on was after that, and before the one on Smiley?  Because that's not supported by the tape and session data.

If he's saying this April version was post-Smile, i.e. the Smile project had already been abandoned, the album they were working on was still being referred to as Smile in press reports as late as June and July - he may mean the April version was the start of the Smiley sessions yet the Vegetables tag doesn't really fit in with the homebrewed aesthetic of Smiley.  And if this is the first Smiley version of Vegetables, what was the the one they did on Smile?  Cornucopia?

[Cam Mott]

" And that was not the one they did on Smile. That was a post-Smile production."

So what is the "one they did on Smile?"  He is talking about the one on the Smile sessions box?  And this one in April he was working on was after that, and before the one on Smiley?  Because that's not supported by the tape and session data.

If he's saying this April version was post-Smile, i.e. the Smile project had already been abandoned, the album they were working on was still being referred to as Smile in press reports as late as June and July - he may mean the April version was the start of the Smiley sessions yet the Vegetables tag doesn't really fit in with the homebrewed aesthetic of Smiley.  And if this is the first Smiley version of Vegetables, what was the the one they did on Smile?  Cornucopia?

I'm guessing it was for the Vegetables single being touted in the press around the time, as that is sort of reflected in Al's uncertain memory of its post-SMiLE use. The April version may have never been intended for an album, anybody have the Capitol Popular Session Worksheets on those and is the "album" or "single" box checked?

The "cornicopia" Vega-Tables would be SMiLE according to the TSS dating and the later Vegetables is Smiley.

[guitarfool2002]

I didn't copy and clip every week's issue of this publication. But I've seen them and have them available. In subsequent issues, dated going into May, the same column reported on "Then I Kissed Her" going in as the "new" Beach Boys single to coincide with their UK tour at that time. It also mentioned "Vegetables", as they got the "s" on it this time, possibly not being the next single. It was information being sorted out and reported as it came in. The same column also reported on Paul and Mal's trip to the US in early April, again in an issue not listed above.

Lo and behold, in one of the May issues the same column reported Carl's surrendering to the FBI in New York and his issues with the draft. The same column below has speculations about Bob Dylan's disappearance, and goes on to report what fans years later would know as "The Basement Tapes", but when that story was new and rumors were flying, the thought was Dylan had not yet recovered from his accident and was "in seclusion" in a rural farmhouse near Woodstock, New York. Later, we found out exactly what he was doing there and who he was with.

So these kinds of columns and reports were pretty good in reporting what they were hearing on the streets. They didn't have the benefit of instant media reporting via TV or internet, obviously, so the information could be delayed several weeks between the event and having it published in these articles.

But they did report on Carl and the draft, and followed up on Vegetables' status as a possible single. That status seemed to only last a brief period.

Inside Pop was CBS News, if a particular station were outside the CBS network, they would be less likely to promote it. As Johnny Carson used to say "on another network...", because NBC wouldn't want their hosts promoting the competition.

GF - No one expect a clipping of everything.  Certainly not me.  But this arises out of pure frustration as to why there was this void.  Bernstein (or whomever) was very clever calling the program, Inside Pop instead of Inside Rock.  They softened the title, maybe to disarm the concept for parents.  And, the huge take-away was all those others who tuned in to see the other musicians such as Janis Ian, and,  who were not Brian Wilson, and who thought the Beach Boys were dorks, got a glimpse of the genius at the helm. 

CBS was huge.  And there was no internet to democratize on Youtube what happened on that program.  But, for that time, it was amazing. Everyone who loved music watched it because someone they liked was going to be featured. Ed Sullivan open the door to these musicians, and Bernstein walked right through it.

But there was a vacuum which if filled at the time, with TV appearances would have kept the momentum which the band had worked so hard to build, growing.  That is the tragedy.  It would have taken little to stop the spiral and made all the difference. I bet it would have made a difference to Brian Wilson to see his music performed on TV.

And, GF -  I appreciate your research.  But have had a long time to think about that dead "media" void, that was absolutely unnecessary and what might have changed it to promote the Pet Sounds' singles, reversing the non-action of Capitol as well as GV, which had been hugely successful.       

You commented on this publication not reporting on Carl's issues with the draft, and I came back and said they did, and would be happy to post that specific article.

The frustration for me is you're continually moving the goalposts. How can not reporting on Inside Pop in a music news column serve to discredit anything that column reported? Logic says it can't and it does not. Much like spelling errors, in the long term no one cares. So let's hypothetically throw these articles away too, discredit them because they didn't report on Inside Pop. They reported Carl's CO and draft issues, but for the sake of this thread let's hypothetically declare them sloppy and junk them.

What or who, then, is left as a credible source for information on this specific era? What or who has the credibility to have their word taken above everyone else?

[guitarfool2002]

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.

Yes. Yes he is.   

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.

Use your ears, Cam, and line up the tracks we have with the session dates of those tracks. It's not rocket science.

[Cam Mott]

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.

Yes. Yes he is.   

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.

Use your ears, Cam, and line up the tracks we have with the session dates of those tracks. It's not rocket science.

That's what I'm doing.  What are your ears telling you?   Are we questioning Al's witness?  What isn't rocket science.......I'm not sure what you mean?

[guitarfool2002]

To simplify it:

"Cornucopia" Vega-Tables was late October 1966, the Vegetables chants and the "argument" session with Blaine and Vosse followed a few weeks later in November 1966.

The more fully orchestrated Vegetables was recorded April 1967. This was the version closest to Heroes in that Brian recorded numerous separate sections of the song and even experimented with test edits of how to put the pieces together in a working sequence.

The Smiley Smile version was recorded in June 1967 and features the jug pouring, bottles being blown into, etc. It borrowed one of the April 1967 version's more fully orchestrated sections to use in the coda. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

Again, just listen to all of these versions, you can easily pick out which ones are which. The only sections perhaps not as readily available are the test edits.

It's not rocket science. April 1967 was not Smiley Smile's version, you can hear the difference easily.

If Al thought what he did in April was what was done in June, he and the band were on a long tour of the US and then Europe immediately after he cut those vocals in April. It's not grounds to throw everything he said out the window or discredit his words entirely.

[The_Holy_Bee]

EDIT: Sorry, Guitarfool! Connection problems meant this ended up getting online moments after your very similar breakdown of recording!

Very interesting discussion. Have been away for a few days, but did Bicycle Rider ever locate the quote (from circa April '67) about Brian being 'working on The Elements' at that time? Have taken a quick read of the intervening pages but couldn't spot it if so. If that quote does exist, it would surely constitute a 'primary source' back-up to Brown's later recollections about BW working on 'The Elements Suite' when McCartney visited the studio - and was present as Al worked on Vegetables.

My gut tells me that Cam is onto something with the notion that the 'Smile' Veggies is Cornucopia (taped, possibly, in October), presumably the same version recalled in Teen Set by Vosse as follows: 'a funky, silly, joyous little ode to VEGA-TABLES. A young pop artist is commissioned to do a vega-table painting for the album, and the Wilson creative process continues.'

If Al is correct (and implied by the clipping posted by Guitarfool above) then the April version is a 'post-Smile' single version intended to replace 'Heroes and Villians' as a 45 release, when Brian 'decided [he was] unhappy with [H&V's] overall sound and... dumped it'.

Which would make 'Vegetables', as released on Smiley Smile, the third distinct version of the song to be attempted, and the only one to be completed to the band's satisfaction.

Then again, my gut tells me a diet consisting exclusively of red wine and spaghetti is a good idea, so I'm not sure it should entirely be trusted. How this all relates to whatever 'Elements' material Brian may have been recording in April 1967 rather depends on locating the clipping from LLVS in which he apparently discusses it.

[Cam Mott]

To simplify it:

"Cornucopia" Vega-Tables was late October 1966, the Vegetables chants and the "argument" session with Blaine and Vosse followed a few weeks later in November 1966.

The more fully orchestrated Vegetables was recorded April 1967. This was the version closest to Heroes in that Brian recorded numerous separate sections of the song and even experimented with test edits of how to put the pieces together in a working sequence.

The Smiley Smile version was recorded in June 1967 and features the jug pouring, bottles being blown into, etc. It borrowed one of the April 1967 version's more fully orchestrated sections to use in the coda. It sticks out like a sore thumb.

Again, just listen to all of these versions, you can easily pick out which ones are which. The only sections perhaps not as readily available are the test edits.

It's not rocket science. April 1967 was not Smiley Smile's version, you can hear the difference easily.

If Al thought what he did in April was what was done in June, he and the band were on a long tour of the US and then Europe immediately after he cut those vocals in April. It's not grounds to throw everything he said out the window or discredit his words entirely.

With all due respect to our ears, I don't think they are going to be definitive in this case.  By that criteria my ears would probably tell me the October version was the Smiley version.

I didn't say The April version was the Smiley version, I said the June Smiley version was the Smiley version.  I said the October version would be the SMiLE version.  

I'm agreeing with Al that what he/they did in April was post-SMiLE and also probably for a single, the new " ‘Vege-tables’ (the spelling may be wrong) a light and lyrical day-to-day green-grocer song on which AL JARDINE sings a most vigorous lead" single Disc & Music Echo revealed in their April 22 issue (which info probably came from sometime between April 18 and 11 or earlier).

[The_Holy_Bee]

With all due respect to our ears, I don't think they are going to be definitive in this case.  By that criteria my ears would probably tell me the October version was the Smiley version.

I didn't say The April version was the Smiley version, I said the June Smiley version was the Smiley version.  I said the October version would be the SMiLE version.  

I'm agreeing with Al that what he/they did in April was post-SMiLE and also probably for a single, the new " ‘Vege-tables’ (the spelling may be wrong) a light and lyrical day-to-day green-grocer song on which AL JARDINE sings a most vigorous lead" single Disc & Music Echo revealed in their April 22 issue (which info probably came from sometime between April 18 and 11 or earlier).

Again, for what it's worth (and I concede that's probably very little) I'm leaning toward what Cam suggests here. Interestingly, on the subject of what 'our ears hear', here's Vosse in '69:

'Vegetables" is another one that could have been, but wasn't quite, but almost was. On Smiley Smile, though, it's really pretty close to the way it was meant to be done...'

Now, to my ears at least - much as Cam suggests above - the 'Cornucopia' and 'Smiley Smile' versions of the song (laidback, limited musical backing, short'n'simple) are much closer to each other than the intervening GV/H&V-style 'modular' version they seem to have been working toward in April. So Vosse's comments support the idea of 'Cornucopia' as the ur-Veggies, the general approach to which was returned to in late '67 for Smiley, with the April version the anomaly. The years of bootlegged and official 'Vegetables' mixes, since 1993, which concentrate on the more complex April material well may have warped our views on what should constitute a 'legitimate' 'Smile-era' Veggies.

[guitarfool2002]

Consider what I've already said about the "Vegetables" possibility as a single. If the articles are read in sequence (including ones I didn't clip and post), the span of time where Vegetables was thought to be a single was very short, a few weeks if that. This is backed up as the articles state Vegetables would replace H&V, then not more than a few weeks later they reported that would not be the case. In LLVS there are several clippings where Brian and maybe even Mike if I'm remembering dismiss the claim that Vegetables would be the next single. Then further articles/clippings returned to H&V being the next single.

Once again, it looks like so much else to be a case of a snapshot of a moment in time where plans that were on the table were mentioned, reported (or put down on paper), and very soon after the plans changed. This is exactly what looks like happened with Vegetables. When Al did that vocal, he may have assumed it was for a single, or like Heroes that Brian was going to take all of the parts (and there were quite a few) and edit them into something as he did GV. Or maybe some parts would be something else.

One article says McCartney heard what would be the flip side of a new single demo'ed in the studio via band members humming the theme. Who knows what that could have been...pure speculation at this point.

But in April 1967 Vegetables seems to have been many things that would have been assembled in theory as the band was on tour, or at least something would have had a place for that song they had recorded multiple sections for in April. Obviously, whatever plans for a single of Vegetables were changed in a short period of time and then those plans were refuted by band members via interviews.

[guitarfool2002]

I guess the point could be taken as this: Look at the confusion around all this. Look at how pieces of Vegetables were recorded, re-recorded, then ended up not only in Vegetables but in later songs too (thinking something like Do A Lot which had multiple variations). If Al Jardine looks back at this session, he might have very vivid and accurate memories about the time McCartney showed up. He might recall exact details, and he did in several interviews.

If we have so much data and info available in retrospect, and are having a hard time trying to piece it together, look at it from where Al was in April 1967. He's in the studio cutting a lead vocal for a song Vegetables. There already was a Vegetables from the fall of '66 and other vegetables related things going on. Now it's April, immediately after the sessions he and the band are gone on a rather long tour of both the US and Europe. They're not present to see what was going on in LA regarding these sessions. Then - word of Vegetables as a single gets reported in various press outlets - and a few weeks later is basically retracted. Heroes is back on tap as the single.

Now they're back in June 67, another Vegetables session. Then not long after that, different Vegetables sessions. Different tracks, same song. Then Brian edits in one of the April Vegetables tracks into this "new" session.

Let me suggest again, if Al's description of Vegetables' various versions would be suggested as grounds to refute other info that he provided in the conversation, it's not grounds enough to do so considering what we can look back and see was a pretty tangled web of a song's history. To Al, Vegetables was the song he worked on in April and picked up on again after the tour ended and they reconvened in June. At some point, the exact days and whatnot don't stand out as much as specific memories like the session with McCartney. That's more than understandable, and again not grounds enough to refute the man's memories based on us not seeing these Vegetables versions line up with our various timelines and session notes.

[The_Holy_Bee]

If the articles are read in sequence (including ones I didn't clip and post), the span of time where Vegetables was thought to be a single was very short, a few weeks if that.

Sure, but isn't this in line with the actual recording history too? The 'Vega-Tables' sessions in April only last for 'a few weeks if that' (actually, only nine days, 4-12 April) and these intersect both with the dates given by Al Jardine in the relevant interview, and the articles which suggest this was to be the next single. So I can't see how these clippings contradict the notion that the 'April sessions' were for an aborted, 'post-Smile' single version of Veggies, presumably to replace H&V as a 45 release. I agree that plans obviously changed - as seems to have been pretty common in early '67 - but again, I can't see how what you've posted above discounts a brief attempt at Veggies as a 'post-Smile' A-side, before the focus shifted toward something else/back to H&V.

Of course, I may well be misunderstanding your argument completely, in which case I apologise.

[guitarfool2002]

If the articles are read in sequence (including ones I didn't clip and post), the span of time where Vegetables was thought to be a single was very short, a few weeks if that.

Sure, but isn't this in line with the actual recording history too? The 'Vega-Tables' sessions in April only last for 'a few weeks if that' (actually, only nine days, 4-12 April) and these intersect both with the dates given by Al Jardine in the relevant interview, and the articles which suggest this was to be the next single. So I can't see how these clippings contradict the notion that the 'April sessions' were for an aborted, 'post-Smile' single version of Veggies, presumably to replace H&V as a 45 release. I agree that plans obviously changed - as seems to have been pretty common in early '67 - but again, I can't see how what you've posted above discounts a brief attempt at Veggies as a 'post-Smile' A-side, before the focus shifted toward something else/back to H&V.

Of course, I may well be misunderstanding your argument completely, in which case I apologise.

When did Derek Taylor's announcement that Smile had been scrapped appear in the press, and in what publication? That for many - existing as an actual public report that the project had been scrapped - might be the point where it was said beyond speculation that Smile was not going to be coming out.

[The_Holy_Bee]

When did Derek Taylor's announcement that Smile had been scrapped appear in the press, and in what publication? That for many - existing as an actual public report that the project had been scrapped - might be the point where it was said beyond speculation that Smile was not going to be coming out.

May 6, Music and Disc Echo.

[Cam Mott]

Consider what I've already said about the "Vegetables" possibility as a single. If the articles are read in sequence (including ones I didn't clip and post), the span of time where Vegetables was thought to be a single was very short, a few weeks if that. This is backed up as the articles state Vegetables would replace H&V, then not more than a few weeks later they reported that would not be the case. In LLVS there are several clippings where Brian and maybe even Mike if I'm remembering dismiss the claim that Vegetables would be the next single. Then further articles/clippings returned to H&V being the next single.

Once again, it looks like so much else to be a case of a snapshot of a moment in time where plans that were on the table were mentioned, reported (or put down on paper), and very soon after the plans changed. This is exactly what looks like happened with Vegetables. When Al did that vocal, he may have assumed it was for a single, or like Heroes that Brian was going to take all of the parts (and there were quite a few) and edit them into something as he did GV. Or maybe some parts would be something else.

One article says McCartney heard what would be the flip side of a new single demo'ed in the studio via band members humming the theme. Who knows what that could have been...pure speculation at this point.

But in April 1967 Vegetables seems to have been many things that would have been assembled in theory as the band was on tour, or at least something would have had a place for that song they had recorded multiple sections for in April. Obviously, whatever plans for a single of Vegetables were changed in a short period of time and then those plans were refuted by band members via interviews.

So just as Al says, when Al recorded his April vocals for Vegetables it was for a single reported in D&ME at the same time (the same week) and it was a post-SMiLE recording. Later plans changed and were still post-SMiLE. Not rocket science.

[guitarfool2002]

I'll answer that. Taylor's statements were the second week of May 1967, May 10th or so. April 29th Brian Wilson said the twelve tracks were finished and ready to be released.

See the contradiction? Like vegetables being a single, these words were very fleeting sometimes and changed often. Snapshots in time. So if Brian says it;s coming out, and just over a week later Taylor says Brian scrapped it...was Taylor right?

May 6, OK. Even closer (Edit)

[guitarfool2002]

Let's add it up.

April 26 1967 - Brian is on Inside Pop playing Surf's Up on CBS TV.

April 29 1967 Brian is reported by Keith Altham in the UK press to have said the album is ready to go, 12 tracks, and mentions a "rush schedule" around the release.

May 6 1967 Derek Taylor reports the album was "scrapped".

May 15-18 1967 Brian holds Love To Say DaDa sessions at Gold Star.

First week of June 1967 Band returns from Europe, sessions for Vegetables, With Me Tonight, and Cool Cool Water are held at Sound Recorders and Western, not the home studio.

Just more to add to the discussion.

Who told Derek Taylor that Smile was "scrapped"?

[The_Holy_Bee]

I'll answer that. Taylor's statements were the second week of May 1967, May 10th or so. April 29th Brian Wilson said the twelve tracks were finished and ready to be released.

See the contradiction? Like vegetables being a single, these words were very fleeting sometimes and changed often. Snapshots in time. So if Brian says it;s coming out, and just over a week later Taylor says Brian scrapped it...was Taylor right?

I don't think anyone's disagreeing that plans were quickly changing around this time. In fact, that's a key premise of the 'April-Veggies-as-post-Smile-single' argument, for me at least. Can someone provide the full quote from April 29 about Brian saying the 'twelve tracks were finished' (sorry if I've missed it above)? Any idea of the delay between quotation and publication? This seems to be a critical factor here.

Re: Taylor's announcement in 'Echo': Even if we go with the date of publication being the same as the date of writing (which it almost certainly wasn't, for obvious reasons), we're talking three weeks after the last Veggies session that this gets published.

I find it hard to believe there wasn't some extended period of thought/discussion 'within the camp' about whether or not to abandon the album taking place for some time. And, even after it was more-or-less decided, at least some real pause for thought before their PR man publically announced that the long-awaited 'Smile' LP was 'SCRAPPED'.

If Al recalls the April 'Veggies' sessions as being 'post-Smile' - and the rest of his recollections in that interview seem to check out - then all the above considered, I'm inclined to believe him.

[The_Holy_Bee]

April 29 1967 Brian is reported by Keith Altham in the UK press to have said the album is ready to go, 12 tracks, and mentions a "rush schedule" around the release.

Ah, cheers. Was this in a monthly/weekly/daily publication, do you know?

Who told Derek Taylor that Smile was "scrapped"?

I thought this was published during Taylor's second stint as PR rep for the BBs, which means the statement must have been known of by Brian, if not actively approved/suggested by him. I may well be wrong though.

[Cam Mott]

Derek Taylor didn't seem to share that certainty in the April 29 iss of Disc and Music Echo:

"“Now the Byrds and the Beach Boys and Eric Burdon for instance are a different story because they furnish the scene with turbulence and arouse violently disparate views… The Beach Boys?…Yet by the erratic pattern of their single releases and their dramatic changes in their albums they are a constant stimulant to conversation. Where are they at?  Who is Brian Wilson? What is going on with ‘Heroes and Villains’? What is ‘Vegetables’ the next single? When is the album ready?
PASSION
It is not deliberate that there is a an unending dilemma with the Beach Boys (if that were so, we would all be bored). It is just that they are blessed with the twin-assets of spontaneous combustion and sporadic engine failure. You know that ultimately they will produce another mind-messing and uniquely-their-own piece of music.” p14

[Cam Mott]

Lou, are you sure that Elements quote you are looking for isn't on page 132 in the bottom left hand corner (in my copy)?

[guitarfool2002]

April 29 1967 Brian is reported by Keith Altham in the UK press to have said the album is ready to go, 12 tracks, and mentions a "rush schedule" around the release.

Ah, cheers. Was this in a monthly/weekly/daily publication, do you know?

Who told Derek Taylor that Smile was "scrapped"?

I thought this was published during Taylor's second stint as PR rep for the BBs, which means the statement must have been known of by Brian, if not actively approved/suggested by him. I may well be wrong though.

Brian talking to Keith Altham was in NME, April 29, 1967.

Derek Taylor's comments were in Disc And Music Echo, May 6, 1967.

[guitarfool2002]

Altham in NME was reporting what he heard from Brian Wilson, that the 12 tracks were ready to go.

Taylor in Disc & Music Echo issue dated roughly 7 days after the Altham article was reporting the album was scrapped.

Where did Taylor get his information?

[guitarfool2002]

Word is...Taylor's info didn't come from Brian.

[Alan Smith]

Where did it come from then?