Was there any evidence "Wind Chimes" was Air?

[CenturyDeprived]

There are also people who recall the song that Macca played was "She's Leaving Home", which would make more sense than "ADITL", being both a song of his, and somewhat easier to preview on a piano. Again, pick your source.  

That would also make sense why Brian became so fond of SLH, fond enough to nearly record a duplicate of it when he recorded "Where is She?" not long thereafter.

[CenturyDeprived]

The fact that Al was in the vocal booth recording vocals for Vegetables when McCartney dropped in is and has been confirmed for years, Al was the only one recording when McCartney showed up. McCartney also left, and later hooked up with Brian and John Phillips to hang out and jam.

Was Al not right in what he said about that session? Or McCartney for that matter? No mention, ever, of Paul meeting with other band members that day. He was in and out as Al was in the vocal booth, then he and Brian hung out later. No mention of other band members.

EDIT: Crossed out the bad info. The rest stands.

If Mike had been there too, perhaps he and Paul could've gotten to talking, which could have inspired Paul in writing yet another Beatles song, a fact which Mike then could also subsequently remind everybody in every single interview from that point on 

[Cam Mott]

Ah, I see they left on the 11th for the date on the 14th with no vocals sessions between.

Ummm... Cam ?

11 - Smile session: Tones (Part #3) [Western] (x)
11 - Smile session: Vega-Tables ['chorus 1' and '2nd chorus' vocals - Sound Recorders]

12 - Smile session: Vega-Tables ['insert part 4' (SR) and 'fade part 4' GS): 2 sessions - Gold Star & Sound Recorders]

13 - Smile session: Vega-Tables [vocals - Sound Recorders] [BW]
13 - Smile session: Vega-Tables [cancelled] [Western]
13 - Mississippi State University, Starkville MS

Note that the vocal session on the 13th is for Brian alone (of course) indicating that the 11th date was most likely a band session (they would have flown out on the 12th).

By the end of April, there were reports in the UK music press that "Vegetables" would be the new single, not "H&V", which would explain both the frenzied work on said song, and the LA Farmer's Market  photoshoot. I feel the evidence listed here against the 4/10 session being for "The Elements" is much stronger than a 15-year-old second hand recollection. This is, of course, merely my notion and not to be taken - or presented - as irrefutable.

TSS shows Al as a vocalist at the April 12 sessions if I'm reading it right.

[Cam Mott]

What tour did Al leave for the next morning?

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

This really, really stands out to me.

Think about the RE-recording of Vega-tables AND Wonderful AND Child is Father of the Man...VT with it's significantly simplified instrumentation compared to the rest of the SMiLE tracks, it was also just the BB's on those sessions (sans the tag), right? It was that simplified production technique that led towards Smiley Smile. 

Al has the big picture points right but maybe confused some fine detail.

Decades ago there was a brilliant younger man from Kansas, I forget his name, who pointed out evidence that SMiLE was cancelled long before the May announcement, before the April Veg sessions, and even before the 3rd week in March when the Wilson's took a contract on the Bellagio house.  It's nice (for him, whoever he was, I mean) to see further confirmation.

[filledeplage]

What tour did Al leave for the next morning?

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

This really, really stands out to me.

Think about the RE-recording of Vega-tables AND Wonderful AND Child is Father of the Man...VT with it's significantly simplified instrumentation compared to the rest of the SMiLE tracks, it was also just the BB's on those sessions (sans the tag), right? It was that simplified production technique that led towards Smiley Smile. 

Al has the big picture points right but maybe confused some fine detail.

Decades ago there was a brilliant younger man from Kansas, I forget his name, who pointed out evidence that SMiLE was cancelled long before the May announcement, before the April Veg sessions, and even before the 3rd week in March when the Wilson's took a contract on the Bellagio house.  It's nice (for him, whoever he was, I mean) to see further confirmation.

Al would be a good source, I think.  And there may be many versions of when this project was cancelled.  Smiley remains a "subset" of the project, for me, with the various tracks that came out.  If the main tracks as we have become familiar with were released, I cannot imagine them fitting on one LP, even purely for counting the minutes. 

It would likely mean leaving off longer tracks such as GV, which was an anchor.  One single track? It might have been a new model...but if you are dividing "elements" concepts, it seems difficult to do.  Aren't medleys (entirely different songs) sort of blended in that manner?  Someone with the sound engineering background might be able to answer that question which might be a dumb one.

The double LP concept was one that was a very new in 1967. LPs were often used for classical music and Broadway shows or soundtracks for movies for the capacity to offer a more complete work. And it sure beat flipping over a bunch of 45s.  But,  what seemed lacking was "confidence" in the project to make a go of it, and not that it lacked quality.  It would have been bold. 

[guitarfool2002]

Al is a good source because he was actually there when McCartney showed up. The part that gets left out sometimes is from the accounts I've seen, McCartney didn't spend all day at that studio, as Al said he was there as Al was doing the vocal at the mic, they were playing back the track for Al, McCartney was talking with Brian and showing the Wilson brothers some of the tracks he was working on with the Beatles, and by the time he came out of the vocal booth McCartney was gone. He reconnected with Brian later for the jam session.

Isn't it possible McCartney showed them several songs that could have included both She's Leaving Home and A Day In The Life? It's all guessing and speculation, so it's not out of the question. Maybe Paul played the section he wrote, "woke up, fell out of bed..." from Day In The Life. We just don't know.

Both Mal Evans and Paul shot home movies during this trip to the US. Some of Mal's has survived. Paul's, unfortunately, I believe was stolen or lost and has never been seen. Imagine if they shot film of either this session or the jam session with the Phillip's...

[Cam Mott]

What is Brown's quote?  He would be secondhand at best it seems. Is there a quote from Evans or Paul?

Al's story doesn't make a connection with The Elements and Vegetables is post-SMiLE if anything according to him. Al seems to refute Brown. Or did I miss something? 

Even if Brown was right, which seems very doubtful imo, he doesn't identiify which song of three he was led to believe was for The Elements.  Did Al not sing on the other two songs recorded that day?

[guitarfool2002]

Why is what Brown said "doubtful"? Al says he was recording Vegetables as McCartney showed up. That seemed to be in doubt earlier in the discussion, but it's pretty clear fact at this point that Al was recording a vocal to Vegetables. The fact that he was recording in the vocal booth and listening to playbacks so he got his lead vocal right also prevented him from knowing exactly what Brian and Paul were discussing, unless one of them got on the talkback mic. As soon as Al was finished, McCartney had left. Everything else, from which songs Paul mentioned or played, to whatever Brian told Paul or Mal or whatever they heard, is at this point speculation unless it was recorded. And 99.99999999% chance it was not. Filmed, perhaps...not recorded.

Al admits he didn't know or didn't recall what version it was, but check the available recordings we have and line them up with whatever incarnation Vegetables was in as of April 10th 1967, listen if possible, and it's as simple as that. If a particular version did not exist until June or whenever, then we know it wasn't that one. Al has said before, about other sessions, that some of them to him did not have a context beyond what he was in the studio that day to record. He had a part, he'd record it, and it was done as far as his contribution, and Brian would put it together. It was just like any number of the session players have said, they'd do their parts and be done, and often the first time they heard what the played in context was on the radio or on an album. They were adding parts...it could have been the album version, the single version, or something that wasn't even used.

It's not rocket science.

And what Brown said specifically is in the book "The Love You Make".

[guitarfool2002]

If the news reports of the day are any help in piecing this stuff together, a few years ago I collected a timeline of these and posted the clippings with the dates they were published. This is the link to the full set:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10389.0.html

And specific to Vegetables being a single, and other factors, here are a few selections:








For those wondering about why something wasn't released as a placeholder or a stop-gap release between the GV single and Smiley Smile (or a possible Smile release), these news reports clearly say the lawsuit put everything on hold as far as Beach Boys releases.

[filledeplage]

If the news reports of the day are any help in piecing this stuff together, a few years ago I collected a timeline of these and posted the clippings with the dates they were published. This is the link to the full set:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10389.0.html

And specific to Vegetables being a single, and other factors, here are a few selections:








For those wondering about why something wasn't released as a placeholder or a stop-gap release between the GV single and Smiley Smile (or a possible Smile release), these news reports clearly say the lawsuit put everything on hold as far as Beach Boys releases.

First clip, I think is wrong.  They went to the UK around May 1st of 1967.  

And the third one leaves the reader thinking that the establishment of Brother was Capitol's idea.

[guitarfool2002]

As I've written here many times, the formation of Brother Records under the control of the Beach Boys but still under the Capitol umbrella was part of the agreement that settled the lawsuit. That's why the contract was reworked. Brother was being organized, planned, and formed since late 1966, credit to those doing the work that they were able to audit Capitol's books and find out the band was being ripped off. The settlement of the suit allowed the band to formally set up "Brother Records" as their own entity within the Capitol contracts.

The lawsuit held up new releases from the time it was filed to the time it was settled, which explains why the band didn't release anything new between GV and Heroes/Smiley in summer '67. They couldn't.

[Cam Mott]

Why is what Brown said "doubtful"? Al says he was recording Vegetables as McCartney showed up. That seemed to be in doubt earlier in the discussion, but it's pretty clear fact at this point that Al was recording a vocal to Vegetables. The fact that he was recording in the vocal booth and listening to playbacks so he got his lead vocal right also prevented him from knowing exactly what Brian and Paul were discussing, unless one of them got on the talkback mic. As soon as Al was finished, McCartney had left. Everything else, from which songs Paul mentioned or played, to whatever Brian told Paul or Mal or whatever they heard, is at this point speculation unless it was recorded. And 99.99999999% chance it was not. Filmed, perhaps...not recorded.

Al admits he didn't know or didn't recall what version it was, but check the available recordings we have and line them up with whatever incarnation Vegetables was in as of April 10th 1967, listen if possible, and it's as simple as that. If a particular version did not exist until June or whenever, then we know it wasn't that one. Al has said before, about other sessions, that some of them to him did not have a context beyond what he was in the studio that day to record. He had a part, he'd record it, and it was done as far as his contribution, and Brian would put it together. It was just like any number of the session players have said, they'd do their parts and be done, and often the first time they heard what the played in context was on the radio or on an album. They were adding parts...it could have been the album version, the single version, or something that wasn't even used.

It's not rocket science.

And what Brown said specifically is in the book "The Love You Make".

Brown is a secondhand witness is why in my opinion.

Al isn't sure if it was for the post-SMiLE album or the post-SMiLE single, which either way is post-SMiLE.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Taking Alan as a reliable source... did he say he was working on "The Elements" ? Has Macca ever stated he dropped into a session for "The Elements" ? No, and no. Both clearly state it was "Vegetables". None of the press at the timemention "The Elements". Sometimes it's what's not said that's significant. The only elemental reference is a second hand one some fifteen years later. If I had to, I'd say Brown was misremembering.

[filledeplage]

As I've written here many times, the formation of Brother Records under the control of the Beach Boys but still under the Capitol umbrella was part of the agreement that settled the lawsuit. That's why the contract was reworked. Brother was being organized, planned, and formed since late 1966, credit to those doing the work that they were able to audit Capitol's books and find out the band was being ripped off. The settlement of the suit allowed the band to formally set up "Brother Records" as their own entity within the Capitol contracts.

The lawsuit held up new releases from the time it was filed to the time it was settled, which explains why the band didn't release anything new between GV and Heroes/Smiley in summer '67. They couldn't.

GF -  I get what you are saying but these articles are not accurate. They are sloppy.  And people should not rely on them especially for research.  


The last one suggests a reformation of the contract with some modifications.   Not sure "Vegetable" (as was written in the second article) had the voltage to be a hit single.  "Stop-gap" is a very good term.

[guitarfool2002]

The issues with the lawsuit as detailed in those columns above pretty much slam the door shut on the notion that the band could or should have released something/anything during this time, as well as silence the criticism (implied or stated outright) leveled at various people involved as to why didn't the band release anything. The whole ball of wax between the band and Capitol got engulfed by the lawsuit and by the legalities involved in settling it. There simply could not be a "new" release during these months in '67 even if everyone wanted one, because of the lawsuit. As soon as that got settled, Brother Records became official, both sides agreed on the settlement, and the existing contracts were revised and updated. Then, mid summer 1967, the next new Beach Boys single appeared on Brother Records. It's really not that complicated.

[filledeplage]

The issues with the lawsuit as detailed in those columns above pretty much slam the door shut on the notion that the band could or should have released something/anything during this time, as well as silence the criticism (implied or stated outright) leveled at various people involved as to why didn't the band release anything. The whole ball of wax between the band and Capitol got engulfed by the lawsuit and by the legalities involved in settling it. There simply could not be a "new" release during these months in '67 even if everyone wanted one, because of the lawsuit. As soon as that got settled, Brother Records became official, both sides agreed on the settlement, and the existing contracts were revised and updated. Then, mid summer 1967, the next new Beach Boys single appeared on Brother Records. It's really not that complicated.

GF - Here is the problem with this week between April 21 and 28th of 1967 - or dates of two of the clips.  Their "news" was eclipsed by a couple of "biggies" - IMDB has Inside Pop, airing on April 25, 1967.  Carl was arrested on April 26, 1967, and released that week.  It was not a "slow news week" for The Beach Boys.  It was on national news.

Of course, the Pet Sounds nonsense in the Spring/Summer of 1966, sent them to the drawing board for meetings for "getting creative" for creative control.  

But the way it reads, from a radio station personality is that it was fed to them (the music stations) as a press release (probably from Capitol) and from there it was woven into something the radio station had as news for the listeners.  It is slanted to represent the BRI was Capitol's brain child.  It looks like a weekly publication from the dates a week apart but they had the European concert schedule all wrong.  It seemed they were touring in the States and doing sessions at that time.  I was paying particular attention that week. (probably not to math)   It was the first time I had seen them.  

[guitarfool2002]

The main point is that for all the questions and critiques, the band could not release anything new as a single or an album or even a placeholder until the lawsuit was settled. As soon as it was, they did.

[filledeplage]

The main point is that for all the questions and critiques, the band could not release anything new as a single or an album or even a placeholder until the lawsuit was settled. As soon as it was, they did.

GF - notwithstanding that their "hands were tied," during the pendency of the suit, for me, as discussed earlier, was, that any singles (LP's) were not appropriately promoted with TV coverage that was done at the corporate level. And that was pre and post BRI incorporation, spanning from late 1965 to early 1968.  

Given that the band was established 1961-2, three years of anemic promotion was close to half their career by that point in time.  

The dates of the sessions and the concert schedule are not unimportant for those who follow how this Smile project unfolded.  It impeaches the credibility of the information flow.  

There should have been smart fans writing in op-eds calling them out on their sloppiness with regard the tour schedule. Or, calling in to the radio station who was responsible.  The fans were not illiterate.  You can bet if it were The Beatles it would have happened.  Just sayin'.  

[Cam Mott]

I'm guessing the Elements reference has more to do with the book's author Gaines than Brown or anyone else.

[guitarfool2002]

As one of those who has been following and researching the history of the Smile project for the better part of 25+ years, I can definitively say that leaving the "s" off of "Vegetables" and reporting something about tour dates is not grounds to dismiss everything factual written in those articles. The info about the lawsuit is accurate, that is what happened and that is what held up a lot of the band's activities during this time, and also had implications beyond just a new release. It answers several questions related to this specific time that start with "why didn't they...". Ultimately the band won that case and got Brother Records along with the back payments as settled.

I can also say that if such typos and errors were used to dismiss entirely the contents of any given article, report, interview quote, or similar source, there would be absolutely nothing left to research or consider as a primary source or eyewitness account regarding this band, Smile, or much else up to the present day. We could look at interviews as current as 2016 so far, find something in there that doesn't jive with the facts or dates or even accepted truth, and say "we must throw it all away, that one point was wrong."

What (or who) then would be left as a credible source?

[filledeplage]

As one of those who has been following and researching the history of the Smile project for the better part of 25+ years, I can definitively say that leaving the "s" off of "Vegetables" and reporting something about tour dates is not grounds to dismiss everything factual written in those articles. The info about the lawsuit is accurate, that is what happened and that is what held up a lot of the band's activities during this time, and also had implications beyond just a new release. It answers several questions related to this specific time that start with "why didn't they...". Ultimately the band won that case and got Brother Records along with the back payments as settled.

I can also say that if such typos and errors were used to dismiss entirely the contents of any given article, report, interview quote, or similar source, there would be absolutely nothing left to research or consider as a primary source or eyewitness account regarding this band, Smile, or much else up to the present day. We could look at interviews as current as 2016 so far, find something in there that doesn't jive with the facts or dates or even accepted truth, and say "we must throw it all away, that one point was wrong."

What (or who) then would be left as a credible source?

GF - of course the "s" missing is of little consequence.  But, if, up to that time, in the Spring of 1967, there was hardly a more historic and newsworthy week for this band;  Inside Pop, Carl's arrest and release.  It is conspicuous by it's absence.  These two events were nationally televised.  The Beach Boys were notoriously under-covered or under-reported by the media.  Just because there is little available should not mean every word should be taken as meritorious.  I would have believed it at the time, but not today.   

They reported non-news.  Within a week's time, there is material being held up from release (April 21) and next week (April 28) it is "Vegetable" - followed in August (4th) by the sanitized version of the settlement.  But it talks about Heroes being released in Britain and not the US. 

There could have been some promo in those articles about Inside Pop. There was certainly lead time.  The arrest of Carl in NY, maybe not as no one knew when that might happen. 

There are many ways to keep media things alive without a new record and that would be TV appearances during the Fall/Winter of 1966-7 in the US, featuring under promoted WIBN and GOK with a finale of GV.  Those recordings were out and apparently not in contention.   Just sayin'. 

[guitarfool2002]

I didn't copy and clip every week's issue of this publication. But I've seen them and have them available. In subsequent issues, dated going into May, the same column reported on "Then I Kissed Her" going in as the "new" Beach Boys single to coincide with their UK tour at that time. It also mentioned "Vegetables", as they got the "s" on it this time, possibly not being the next single. It was information being sorted out and reported as it came in. The same column also reported on Paul and Mal's trip to the US in early April, again in an issue not listed above.

Lo and behold, in one of the May issues the same column reported Carl's surrendering to the FBI in New York and his issues with the draft. The same column below has speculations about Bob Dylan's disappearance, and goes on to report what fans years later would know as "The Basement Tapes", but when that story was new and rumors were flying, the thought was Dylan had not yet recovered from his accident and was "in seclusion" in a rural farmhouse near Woodstock, New York. Later, we found out exactly what he was doing there and who he was with.

So these kinds of columns and reports were pretty good in reporting what they were hearing on the streets. They didn't have the benefit of instant media reporting via TV or internet, obviously, so the information could be delayed several weeks between the event and having it published in these articles.

But they did report on Carl and the draft, and followed up on Vegetables' status as a possible single. That status seemed to only last a brief period.

Inside Pop was CBS News, if a particular station were outside the CBS network, they would be less likely to promote it. As Johnny Carson used to say "on another network...", because NBC wouldn't want their hosts promoting the competition.

[filledeplage]

I didn't copy and clip every week's issue of this publication. But I've seen them and have them available. In subsequent issues, dated going into May, the same column reported on "Then I Kissed Her" going in as the "new" Beach Boys single to coincide with their UK tour at that time. It also mentioned "Vegetables", as they got the "s" on it this time, possibly not being the next single. It was information being sorted out and reported as it came in. The same column also reported on Paul and Mal's trip to the US in early April, again in an issue not listed above.

Lo and behold, in one of the May issues the same column reported Carl's surrendering to the FBI in New York and his issues with the draft. The same column below has speculations about Bob Dylan's disappearance, and goes on to report what fans years later would know as "The Basement Tapes", but when that story was new and rumors were flying, the thought was Dylan had not yet recovered from his accident and was "in seclusion" in a rural farmhouse near Woodstock, New York. Later, we found out exactly what he was doing there and who he was with.

So these kinds of columns and reports were pretty good in reporting what they were hearing on the streets. They didn't have the benefit of instant media reporting via TV or internet, obviously, so the information could be delayed several weeks between the event and having it published in these articles.

But they did report on Carl and the draft, and followed up on Vegetables' status as a possible single. That status seemed to only last a brief period.

Inside Pop was CBS News, if a particular station were outside the CBS network, they would be less likely to promote it. As Johnny Carson used to say "on another network...", because NBC wouldn't want their hosts promoting the competition.

GF - No one expect a clipping of everything.  Certainly not me.  But this arises out of pure frustration as to why there was this void.  Bernstein (or whomever) was very clever calling the program, Inside Pop instead of Inside Rock.  They softened the title, maybe to disarm the concept for parents.  And, the huge take-away was all those others who tuned in to see the other musicians such as Janis Ian, and,  who were not Brian Wilson, and who thought the Beach Boys were dorks, got a glimpse of the genius at the helm. 

CBS was huge.  And there was no internet to democratize on Youtube what happened on that program.  But, for that time, it was amazing. Everyone who loved music watched it because someone they liked was going to be featured. Ed Sullivan open the door to these musicians, and Bernstein walked right through it.

But there was a vacuum which if filled at the time, with TV appearances would have kept the momentum which the band had worked so hard to build, growing.  That is the tragedy.  It would have taken little to stop the spiral and made all the difference. I bet it would have made a difference to Brian Wilson to see his music performed on TV.

And, GF -  I appreciate your research.  But have had a long time to think about that dead "media" void, that was absolutely unnecessary and what might have changed it to promote the Pet Sounds' singles, reversing the non-action of Capitol as well as GV, which had been hugely successful.       

[Micha]

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.

"CIFOTM version 3"... I think it is very likely that that recording was to be a section of either V-T or Wonderful rather than a song of its own as previously planned. IMHO that's Brian's first attempt to salvage that chant before finally using it as a tag to Surf's Up.

[Cam Mott]

Also Al put the end of SMiLE pre-April Veg.

But is he right about that? He isn't really sure even what version ov V-T they were working on.

Yes. Yes he is.   

He knew either way that that Veg was post-SMiLE. And we've learned that Al is totally reliable in this interview.  And that isn't the only thing that points to that Veg being post-SMiLE.