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Author Topic: The initial structure of Heroes and Villains  (Read 54379 times)
mike moseley
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« Reply #200 on: July 22, 2016, 11:29:47 AM »


but the June 'my children' section doesn't have the 'often wise' melody


and if I remember rightly:

'great shape' is a heavier arrangement we haven't heard yet

'my children' has the 'often wise' melody

i wonder if 'great shape' has a similar feel to the very early takes of 'false barnyard' before the ychanged the rhythm..?

Mike, I think you might be right about that.  Sorry guys, but I believe that this is some kind of mix that includes early "false barnyard" with june '67 "my children.."

To support my claim if I'm not mistaken the guy who heard the acetate said there was bicycle rider part with kick drum that he never heard before and we all know about that part (SOT...), and DYDW with different voals whick have also been discussed on board here (Vigotone bootleg)....

But who knows, I would love to be proven wrong! Shocked

[/quote]
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #201 on: July 22, 2016, 12:08:59 PM »


but the June 'my children' section doesn't have the 'often wise' melody


and if I remember rightly:

'great shape' is a heavier arrangement we haven't heard yet

'my children' has the 'often wise' melody

i wonder if 'great shape' has a similar feel to the very early takes of 'false barnyard' before the ychanged the rhythm..?

Mike, I think you might be right about that.  Sorry guys, but I believe that this is some kind of mix that includes early "false barnyard" with june '67 "my children.."

To support my claim if I'm not mistaken the guy who heard the acetate said there was bicycle rider part with kick drum that he never heard before and we all know about that part (SOT...), and DYDW with different voals whick have also been discussed on board here (Vigotone bootleg)....

But who knows, I would love to be proven wrong! Shocked

[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #202 on: July 22, 2016, 02:00:21 PM »


but the June 'my children' section doesn't have the 'often wise' melody


and if I remember rightly:

'great shape' is a heavier arrangement we haven't heard yet

'my children' has the 'often wise' melody

i wonder if 'great shape' has a similar feel to the very early takes of 'false barnyard' before the ychanged the rhythm..?

Mike, I think you might be right about that.  Sorry guys, but I believe that this is some kind of mix that includes early "false barnyard" with june '67 "my children.."

To support my claim if I'm not mistaken the guy who heard the acetate said there was bicycle rider part with kick drum that he never heard before and we all know about that part (SOT...), and DYDW with different voals whick have also been discussed on board here (Vigotone bootleg)....

But who knows, I would love to be proven wrong! Shocked

[/quote]

Not sure what you're suggesting . . . this is not a mix that includes false Barnyard or the june 67 "my children" - that would imply that this acetate mix was produced in June 67, would it not?

The alternate/remake "Great Shape" section was recorded Dec 19th, 1966.  Which is interesting in and of itself, as supposedly Great Shape had been split out to be its' track (the Dec 10th track list).  But apparently Brian hadn't yet decided to definitively do that as here he is recording "Shape" again AND doing a test edit/acetate into "my children . . . and often wise" and the Heroes verse track (probably "three score and five" as that's how it went in the cantina mix).  So when was this acetate produced?  Most likely right after the session or the day or two afterwards, to see how the new section fit into the song or if it did fit in as Brian thought it would.

Apparently it didn't turn out as he had hoped, because Jan 5th there is a Heroes session for a new "Part 2" which is the vocal and fuzz bass overdubs of the "Bicycle Rider" chorus of Worms, obvously replacing Great Shape.  That doesn't turn out as planned and Brian and Van Dyke write and record yet another "Part 2" - the cantina section, on Jan 27th.  So this acetate is likely made Dec 19th or 20th or certainly between Dec 19th and Jan 5th.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #203 on: July 23, 2016, 09:42:46 AM »

Again, imo, the January 5 recordings were towards a master take for the master of the "side 2" track titled "Heroes and Villains Part II" and not recordings toward a master take of a second part ("part 2") for the master of the side 1 track titled "Heroes and Villians".  Two separate masters for two separate sides of a proposed two sided H&V single. Carry on. 
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« Reply #204 on: July 24, 2016, 06:48:10 AM »

In your opinion.  Others (Alan Boyd among them) think otherwise.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #205 on: July 24, 2016, 06:04:13 PM »

In your opinion.  Others (Alan Boyd among them) think otherwise.

Does Alan disagree?  I've never read or heard him comment on it.
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« Reply #206 on: July 25, 2016, 01:54:12 AM »


but the June 'my children' section doesn't have the 'often wise' melody


and if I remember rightly:

'great shape' is a heavier arrangement we haven't heard yet

'my children' has the 'often wise' melody

i wonder if 'great shape' has a similar feel to the very early takes of 'false barnyard' before the ychanged the rhythm..?

Mike, I think you might be right about that.  Sorry guys, but I believe that this is some kind of mix that includes early "false barnyard" with june '67 "my children.."

To support my claim if I'm not mistaken the guy who heard the acetate said there was bicycle rider part with kick drum that he never heard before and we all know about that part (SOT...), and DYDW with different voals whick have also been discussed on board here (Vigotone bootleg)....

But who knows, I would love to be proven wrong! Shocked

[/quote]

I suggested that  'Andy' who heard this acetate maybe isn't familiar with whole Smile music, like when he said about the "new" BR part with kick drum and DYDW with alternate hawaiian vocal, which are known to general public for about 10 years through bootlegs!
But nobody would be more thrilled than me that this acetate is something we haven't heard till now!
 Rock!
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #207 on: July 26, 2016, 05:24:12 AM »

In your opinion.  Others (Alan Boyd among them) think otherwise.

Does Alan disagree?  I've never read or heard him comment on it.

Alan on Heroes Part 1 and 2:

"As far as "Heroes and Villains" PART Two is concerned, the tape box containing the "Bicycle Rider" theme with Brian's lead vocal, is labeled "HEROES PART TWO."  Judging from some fragmentary mix outtakes for the song's opening verses - which seem to go into a snippet of that harpsichord-based "Bicycle Rider" theme - I'm guessing that "Part Two" in that case refers to sections within an alternate complete edit of the song, rather than an actual separate side two."
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zosobird
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« Reply #208 on: July 29, 2016, 08:42:45 AM »

In your opinion.  Others (Alan Boyd among them) think otherwise.

Does Alan disagree?  I've never read or heard him comment on it.


"As far as "Heroes and Villains" PART Two is concerned, the tape box containing the "Bicycle Rider" theme with Brian's lead vocal, is labeled "HEROES PART TWO."  Judging from some fragmentary mix outtakes for the song's opening verses - which seem to go into a snippet of that harpsichord-based "Bicycle Rider" theme - I'm guessing that "Part Two" in that case refers to sections within an alternate complete edit of the song, rather than an actual separate side two."


I posted this elsewhere....Alan on Heroes Part 1 and 2:

From mark linett and alan boyd's iconfetch interviews (around the time of the smile sessions release):

- question asked by buddahat!! "was the sequence for HV pt 2 based on historical evidence meaning brians plans in 66/67?"

Alan:  "partially.. what we did was we took almost all sections that had been recorded in the first part of 1967. For instance, there was a section called prelude to fade..and a couple days later he went and recorded a new fade and so we went 'well, lets put the prelude to fade before the fade.' At the end of that, there was another section called tag to pt1 that just seemed to fit in there like a glove most beautifully.  And the other sections, you know, all the vocal parts were arranged in that order although not edited together on the original session master tape..and we did find pieces.. and you will hear some of this towards the end of CD 4 of edit attemps brian had made with some of those recordings in early 1967, so it's not as if brian had written a very specific blueprint for it, but based on the way he was titling these tracks and the order in which they were laid down.. the order in which they were recorded, it seemed the most intuitive method to arrange HV pt 2. I have to say Im not positive, you know, we're not positive that there actually was intended to be a HV side 2. We've heard reports from both sides on that."

Mark: "Well, Brian denies it. But 40 years on, thats his take on it.. that there was no two sided version of HV"
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 08:43:29 AM by zosobird » Logged
Cam Mott
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« Reply #209 on: July 30, 2016, 07:28:25 AM »

The first clue to me is the "Side 2" tapebox notation on takes toward a master take for a separate master separately titled Heroes and Villians - Part II. 

That title to me is the second clue; correct me if I'm wrong but it was not Brian's practice to create a new master and session number and new title including the part number (ie. Heroes and Villains - Part 2/II, master #57020 session #s 14236 through 14236D) for the second part, or third part, fourth part, of a separate master and title (ie. Heroes and Villains, master #57045, session #s 14247 through 14247R).

Confusing, I know.
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« Reply #210 on: July 30, 2016, 09:58:49 AM »

The Bicyclerider theme was Heroes Part Two, then cantina was recorded as Heroes Part Two, replacing the temporary Bicyclerider idea.  It's pretty simple and not that confusing.  I realize you are hung up on the different master number - but I believe there were some separate master numbers for Good Vibrations sections, were there not?  So it's not unprecedented for Brian to do that.  You have to look logically at the development of the song rather than a pre-ordained scheme based on numbers that doesn't appear to tally with where Brian was at the time.  There was no talk of a two sided single in January, Brian was trying to finish a one sided single, he wouldn't start a side two when side one was so incomplete.  After cantina was done he had side one and was quoted as saying he didn't know what was going on side two - why would he say that if he had already recorded material for side two in January?  And knew he was going to do a Part Two on that side?

In fact Brian has never been quoted as saying there was going to be a two sided single and he denied that was ever the plan in the quote above.  I suspect there may have been a very short time period when Brian considered doing variations on some Heroes and Villains chants as a side two, but that rapidly evolved into remaking side one after rejecting the cantina version.
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #211 on: July 31, 2016, 09:04:36 PM »

correct me if I'm wrong but it was not Brian's practice to create a new master and session number and new title including the part number (ie. Heroes and Villains - Part 2/II, master #57020 session #s 14236 through 14236D) for the second part, or third part, fourth part, of a separate master and title (ie. Heroes and Villains, master #57045, session #s 14247 through 14247R).


Cabin Essence - masters #56647, #56716 and #57044
Wonderful - masters #56550 and #57046
Surf's Up - masters #56842, (crossed out and written) #56850, and then #56841

And also With Me Tonight is logged as master # #57450, so it must be a part of Vege-Tables?  And Barnyard has a master #56727 and I'm in Great Shape as #56738 so they must not be a part of Heroes and Villains? 

You are free to believe what you want to believe but the master numbers are a red herring. 
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Micha
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« Reply #212 on: August 01, 2016, 10:46:48 AM »

I assume there never was a H&V planned to be streched over both sides of a single... yet there may have been plans for a track called "Heroes And Villains part 2", as there has been a precedent to that: "Shut Down part 2". There is no "Shut Down part 1" - there's only "Shut Down" proper and that instrumental piece which is not supposed to be a continuation of "Shut Down". So I could imagine a single that has the whole and complete H&V on side A... and some goofing around called "Heroes And Villains part 2" as the B-side, and only on that B-side, not to be included on the SMiLE album.


And also With Me Tonight is logged as master # #57450, so it must be a part of Vege-Tables?

Well, actually... there's this little piece on the Hawthorne CD that has the original Vega-Tables bass line with "With me tonight" sung over it, so indeed, yes, at one moment in time With Me Tonight was intended to be a section of Vega-Tables.
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #213 on: August 01, 2016, 11:33:34 AM »

Well, actually... there's this little piece on the Hawthorne CD that has the original Vega-Tables bass line with "With me tonight" sung over it, so indeed, yes, at one moment in time With Me Tonight was intended to be a section of Vega-Tables.
Or was the arrangement ideas of the Veges bridge just recycled into With Me Tonight?  (just like the DYLW/Bicycle Rider piano bit *and* the vocal arrangement of the Vege-Tables Fade was recycled into an interlude for Wonderful)
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Micha
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« Reply #214 on: August 01, 2016, 11:39:01 AM »

Or was the arrangement ideas of the Veges bridge just recycled into With Me Tonight?  (just like the DYLW/Bicycle Rider piano bit *and* the vocal arrangement of the Vege-Tables Fade was recycled into an interlude for Wonderful)

That's another possibility. Doesn't explain the master number, though. Still possible.
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« Reply #215 on: August 01, 2016, 01:11:23 PM »

I am proposing a theory: Pre-December Heroes and Villains was actually part of an album suite, tentatively titled 'The Barnyard Suite.' To me, this suite was composed of four modular songs that somehow linked together, that all shared an underlying theme of Americana.
I'm in Great Shape, and Barnyard are commonly associated as being a part of this suite. The Old Master Painter was linked to Barnyard in the Smile Sessions set. The Old Master Painter also has a fade that was later reused as a fade for Heroes and Villains. ALL of these 'Barnyard Suite' songs are drawn from rough ideas for Heroes and Villains.
We all know GS and Barnyard where sections of Heroes and Villains.
DYLW's Bicycle Rider bit was an alleged chorus for Heroes and Villains post-December.
Heroes and Villains' Bridge to The Indians connects to Worms.
Workshop was also even a part of GS according to a tape box labelling. (Which leads me to believe the construction noises of Workshop symbolized building a Barnyard of some sort).

So, going by the December track list, these tracks would logically have to be in this order-

1. Heroes and Villains
2. Do You Like Worms?
3. I'm In Great Shape (including Workshop in between)
4. The Old Master Painter (w/ Sunshine Fade)

Either that, or Brian scrapped the suite in favour of an album single (*cough *cough* Cantina mix of HV*)
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #216 on: August 01, 2016, 01:56:12 PM »

Interesting.

So in this scenario, is H&V proper only about 1 minute long? 
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #217 on: August 01, 2016, 08:33:26 PM »

Interesting.

So in this scenario, is H&V proper only about 1 minute long? 

Well, Heroes could be the first part of the suite, a suite made out of four MODULAR songs, so I highly doubt Heroes would just be the first verse.
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #218 on: August 02, 2016, 06:28:54 AM »

We have Smile era reports of both a five and a six minute version of Heroes . . . was Brian just adding on to cantina, or completely junking cantina and rejiggering the parts already recorded with the new parts he was adding in February and March . . . the latter was ultimately what he did for the new single version, I suspect that was what was going on when he rerecorded the verse and the fade.  If only some of these alternate longer versions could be found it would answer most of our questions about what Brian was up to in February and March.
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #219 on: August 02, 2016, 05:33:20 PM »

I haven't had time to do any homework but, yes, master numbers could change and be back dated and abandoned for new numbers but that isn't really what is going on with "H&V" #57020 beginning December 19 or "H&V-Part II" "Side 2" #57045 beginning January 5.  H&V Part II/Side 2 #57045 is a title of a track made up of sections recorded as master takes including an "intro" and what also might be something like a chorus and verse. Not a part 2/second part in the way cantina or any of the side 1 part twos for #57020 were sections. 

Anyways there is still more evidence for a two sided H&V single, even if Brian never mentioned it in an interview, than there is for many things SMiLE.  Vosse and Britz were both aware of it even if it wasn't published.
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« Reply #220 on: August 03, 2016, 10:07:15 AM »

So, does anybody believe my theory has any credibility? To be honest, I don't know a speck of valid information compared to the Smile-enthusiasts on this board, so I'd love to hear their thoughts on this proposed theory, and whether it is likely Brian envision HV to be a part of some sort of 'Barnyard Suite.'
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #221 on: August 03, 2016, 01:40:50 PM »

I haven't had time to do any homework but, yes, master numbers could change and be back dated and abandoned for new numbers but that isn't really what is going on with "H&V" #57020 beginning December 19 or "H&V-Part II" "Side 2" #57045 beginning January 5.  H&V Part II/Side 2 #57045 is a title of a track made up of sections recorded as master takes including an "intro" and what also might be something like a chorus and verse. Not a part 2/second part in the way cantina or any of the side 1 part twos for #57020 were sections. 
Not precisely.

It's true that the Bicycle Rider Chorus from 1/5/67 was master #57045 (the first use of it, which it was assigned this number upon receiving overdubs...), logged as Heroes and Villains Part 2 and slated as "Side 2".  But that's the only reference to Side 2... at all.  Ever.  Then we both know that master #57045 was used again on 2/27/67 for the Chorus (also logged as Part Two).  But the following three recordings from March '67 for the master #57045 (Fade Remake, Verse Remake, Organ Waltz) weren't logged as Part 2 or Part Two or Part II, just as Heroes and Villains, proper. 

So what that amounts to for all five individual sections of Master #57045, only two were connected to a "Part 2/Part Two/Part II" and only one connected to "Side 2".  Is that proof enough to connect all those dots and say Master 57045 = Side 2?  I'm sure you'll say 'yes' but statistically speaking there's only 1/5 probability that it's Side 2, and only 2/5 probability it's a Part 2.  The odds are not good.   

To me it all points to not only 'no' but that there was no "H&V Part II" that would exist as a flip-side to the Heroes and Villains single.  Only a second "part" of Heroes and Villains (if the verse and a capella sections are "Part 1") that Brian couldn't decide on: at first was I'm in Great Shape, then Bicycle Rider, then Cantina, then Gee and it's variations (which were also Parts 3 and 4), then finally a Chorus.  The Master numbers came, went, mislogged and reassigned; they are convenient, but not defining.  Any reference to "part" at all refers to sections of a song, rather than the A and B-side of a single. 

I think we're chasing our tails here. 
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soniclovenoize
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« Reply #222 on: August 03, 2016, 01:44:56 PM »

So, does anybody believe my theory has any credibility? To be honest, I don't know a speck of valid information compared to the Smile-enthusiasts on this board, so I'd love to hear their thoughts on this proposed theory, and whether it is likely Brian envision HV to be a part of some sort of 'Barnyard Suite.'

It's possible, but not sure how probable. 
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #223 on: August 03, 2016, 02:03:51 PM »

The H&V Part II/Side 2 #57045 was a sort of suite of bits of DYLW, The Elements, H&V #57020 (side 1), and TOMP  at least as the known tracks and documentation seem to indicate.  A suite of album track bits also makes sense of his February comment about trying to decide about what to put on H&V side 2 and maybe giving to much of the album away.
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« Reply #224 on: August 03, 2016, 08:44:59 PM »

But the following three recordings from March '67 for the master #57045 (Fade Remake, Verse Remake, Organ Waltz) weren't logged as Part 2 or Part Two or Part II, just as Heroes and Villains, proper.  

So what that amounts to for all five individual sections of Master #57045, only two were connected to a "Part 2/Part Two/Part II" and only one connected to "Side 2".  Is that proof enough to connect all those dots and say Master 57045 = Side 2?  I'm sure you'll say 'yes' but statistically speaking there's only 1/5 probability that it's Side 2, and only 2/5 probability it's a Part 2.  The odds are not good.  

To me it all points to not only 'no' but that there was no "H&V Part II" that would exist as a flip-side to the Heroes and Villains single.  Only a second "part" of Heroes and Villains (if the verse and a capella sections are "Part 1") that Brian couldn't decide on: at first was I'm in Great Shape, then Bicycle Rider, then Cantina, then Gee and it's variations (which were also Parts 3 and 4), then finally a Chorus.  The Master numbers came, went, mislogged and reassigned; they are convenient, but not defining.  Any reference to "part" at all refers to sections of a song, rather than the A and B-side of a single.  

I think we're chasing our tails here.  

I'm not sure I'm following you but my understanding is the very late February and very early March sessions are all titled "H&V Part II" and for the #57045 master and they also share the master's session number (14247 through 14247D) for the H&V Part II master.  I presume if the master is marked as "Side 2" the sessions for that master would be for "Side 2", the same way the sessions and master takes for master #57020 were for side 1. At least it shows the intention at the time of the recording, Brian apparently changed his mind from his previous intentions occasionally ie. Barnyard, IIGS, cantina, and various numbered sections recorded for the side 1 master #57020.  "Part 2" in the title must not mean a second section of the titled track's master because one of the master takes with that "H&V - Part II" master title is also noted as an "intro".  

I don't think it is chasing our tail at all, it seems pretty clearly laid out, identified, and organized at the time to me.  We don't know how the two sided single ended up but Vosse said something like he pretty much knew what it was going to be, nearly finished, when he left in March and didn't Britz say they had a two sided H&V single actually finished?  The H&V side 2 isn't some fan-tasy pulled out of thin air by grasping for evidence, it had witnesses and is documented.  I'm kind of confused by the resistance to the evidence I guess.

Anyways, all subject to C-man's superior data of course.  
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 04:39:48 AM by Cam Mott » Logged

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