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Author Topic: The initial structure of Heroes and Villains  (Read 54376 times)
Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #175 on: June 17, 2016, 03:57:18 PM »

I have a theory that the Cantina section wasn't just a replacement for I'm in Great Shape but was actually a rewriting of it, similar to how Cool, Cool Water was a rewriting of Love To Say Da Da. I layered the Great Shape vocals over the Cantina backing track and it's almost a perfect fit.

COMMENT:  Since after 174 posts on Heroes and Villains, no one has mentioned my Study-Video on this subject, I will.

For what it's worth, the engineer's two-cents is available for free by visiting my website and pushing to the H & V button.

http://swdstudyvideos.com


~swd
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #176 on: June 17, 2016, 04:01:22 PM »

I have a theory that the Cantina section wasn't just a replacement for I'm in Great Shape but was actually a rewriting of it, similar to how Cool, Cool Water was a rewriting of Love To Say Da Da. I layered the Great Shape vocals over the Cantina backing track and it's almost a perfect fit.

COMMENT:  Since after 174 posts on Heroes and Villains, no one has mentioned my Study-Video on this subject, I will.

For what it's worth, the engineer's two-cents is available for free by visiting my website and pushing to the H & V button.

http://swdstudyvideos.com


~swd

Mr. Desper, awesome video!  Shocked
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:03:01 PM by The Old Master Painter » Logged
The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #177 on: June 17, 2016, 04:02:00 PM »

Also, Heck, I can't believe this thread's alive again!
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Nile
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« Reply #178 on: June 27, 2016, 04:21:29 AM »

The second iteration is written by Brian and Van Dyke Parks, beginning sometime in May (and possibly completed, in compositional terms, that same month). By October 1966, at the latest, it includes sections entitled ‘I’m in Great Shape’ and ‘Barnyard’. Combining the ‘Humble Harv’ demo of November 4th ('Miller is excited: “That is going to be the greatest record anybody's ever heard"' - Teen Set) and the the ‘Durrie Parks’ assembly of three sections of the song, we have a possible sequence for [some of] this version as follows:

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', ‘here’s another section now’:] Barnyard.


The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.

True, but that goes only for the Cantina mix that survives. The lyric "My children.. 3 score&5 ...survive with the H&V" could have existed before, and just be sung over the verse track, as it's really a third verse lyrically/metrically/melodically.

Micha, you genius! This is probably true! "My children..! part was probably at some point (maybe October/November '66) verse!
It fits perfectly, try singin' it over the verse instrumental!
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Micha
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« Reply #179 on: June 27, 2016, 03:56:24 PM »

Micha, you genius!

I've heard that before! Grin

Seriously, I thought it's rather obvious.
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #180 on: June 27, 2016, 10:06:43 PM »



[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', ‘here’s another section now’:] Barnyard.


The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.[/quote]

True, but that goes only for the Cantina mix that survives. The lyric "My children.. 3 score&5 ...survive with the H&V" could have existed before, and just be sung over the verse track, as it's really a third verse lyrically/metrically/melodically.
[/quote]

Micha, you genius! This is probably true! "My children..! part was probably at some point (maybe October/November '66) verse!
It fits perfectly, try singin' it over the verse instrumental!
[/quote]

The Durrie Parks acetate, presumably from December, has the "My children were raised . . . often wise" instrumental backing in it after the new Great Shape section.  Not a verse backing repeat.
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thorgil
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« Reply #181 on: June 28, 2016, 01:03:50 AM »

Is there in the whole world of music so complex and fascinating a mystery as H & V? I don't think so.
I think H & V is in a "fractal" relationship with Smile: it's a part of Smile, but as complex as the whole.
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Nile
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« Reply #182 on: June 28, 2016, 01:07:30 AM »



[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', ‘here’s another section now’:] Barnyard.


The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.

True, but that goes only for the Cantina mix that survives. The lyric "My children.. 3 score&5 ...survive with the H&V" could have existed before, and just be sung over the verse track, as it's really a third verse lyrically/metrically/melodically.
[/quote]

Micha, you genius! This is probably true! "My children..! part was probably at some point (maybe October/November '66) verse!
It fits perfectly, try singin' it over the verse instrumental!
[/quote]

The Durrie Parks acetate, presumably from December, has the "My children were raised . . . often wise" instrumental backing in it after the new Great Shape section.  Not a verse backing repeat.
[/quote]

BR, you're right but what Micha and me were talking about was that at some point "..my children.." part was to be sung over verse instrumental, and from there to "..3 score..."
Wonderful stuff this H&V! Smiley
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Micha
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« Reply #183 on: June 29, 2016, 06:57:01 AM »

The Durrie Parks acetate, presumably from December, has the "My children were raised . . . often wise" instrumental backing in it after the new Great Shape section.  Not a verse backing repeat.

The point is, that lyric may likely have originally been a third verse, and at some point - lacking surviving mixes, impossible to know when exactly - Brian chose to use a different backing for that third verse lyric. Later on, he chose to ditch the second half of that lyric altogether.

Hace you actually heard the Durrie Parks acetate or just read about it?
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terrei
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« Reply #184 on: July 01, 2016, 10:42:04 AM »

Is there in the whole world of music so complex and fascinating a mystery as H & V? I don't think so.

 It's just a I-II-V riff with a descending diatonic melody. Not much more complex than Mary Had a Little Lamb.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #185 on: July 03, 2016, 01:07:59 AM »

The main melody is indeed very simple but its length and high-to-low-note ratio (tessitura) is quite unusual.

The arrangements of vox and backing tracks are very creative and intricate - I mean the various discarded sections as well as the 45 version.

The themes are very interesting too:  childhood, barnyard, love, life and death + the punning wordplay etc.  Its not a simple song lyrically.

A lot of Smile is chordally very simple but the arrangements are among Brian's best.


Is there in the whole world of music so complex and fascinating a mystery as H & V? I don't think so.

 It's just a I-II-V riff with a descending diatonic melody. Not much more complex than Mary Had a Little Lamb.
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« Reply #186 on: July 03, 2016, 04:05:00 AM »

So is the chording of God Only Knows polychordal and Heroes and Villains relatively more basic?
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mike moseley
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« Reply #187 on: July 03, 2016, 10:29:48 AM »

I think GOK is polychordal..?  so yes would be much more sophisticated + is a more active chord structure anyway

I think Wonderful has key shifts but I don't think CE does - I think CE has normal chord changes

I'm not trained though so if any of this is wrong I'm happy to be corrected


So is the chording of God Only Knows more complex than Heroes and Villains? Are Cabin Essence and Wonderful (with three key shifts) roughly more complex? Being a musical illiterate when it comes to the technicalities, It'd be interesting to know where they stand relatively.
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« Reply #188 on: July 11, 2016, 01:30:29 PM »

Are the organ overdubs on the Smiley Smile H&V chorus on the TSS version?

They add a lot to the track, even though they were specifically recorded for the Smiley version. Seems to have been overlooked.
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« Reply #189 on: July 11, 2016, 01:36:44 PM »

Are the organ overdubs on the Smiley Smile Heroes and Villains chorus on the TSS version?

They add a lot to the track, even though they were specifically for the Smiley version

Yes, on the first disc version although it's only on the "Stand or Fall" section as I believe the multi to that is lost.
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #190 on: July 11, 2016, 01:42:07 PM »

The Durrie Parks acetate, presumably from December, has the "My children were raised . . . often wise" instrumental backing in it after the new Great Shape section.  Not a verse backing repeat.

The point is, that lyric may likely have originally been a third verse, and at some point - lacking surviving mixes, impossible to know when exactly - Brian chose to use a different backing for that third verse lyric. Later on, he chose to ditch the second half of that lyric altogether.

Hace you actually heard the Durrie Parks acetate or just read about it?

I've discussed it with someone who has heard it and has a digital copy of it.   I have not heard it although obviously I would love to.
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« Reply #191 on: July 11, 2016, 05:00:14 PM »

Are the organ overdubs on the Smiley Smile Heroes and Villains chorus on the TSS version?

They add a lot to the track, even though they were specifically for the Smiley version

Yes, on the first disc version although it's only on the "Stand or Fall" section as I believe the multi to that is lost.

Actually on the 2012 Stereo Smiley Smile Remaster the Baldwin is heard all over the song during the first verse, Second verse and the choruses. I think after the Smile Sessions were released Mark and Alan were still doing a search for proper Master Tapes. If you notice Vegetables on the Smiley Smile Stereo Remaster has the cool Electric Piano part on the ending, which was absent from the Stereo mix on Hawthorne CA.
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« Reply #192 on: July 13, 2016, 08:57:31 AM »

The Durrie Parks acetate, presumably from December, has the "My children were raised . . . often wise" instrumental backing in it after the new Great Shape section.  Not a verse backing repeat.

So what backing is that? The "alternate version" has little to no backing on the first half Of the children verse. Or is it a harpsichord backing like on the released version?
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« Reply #193 on: July 13, 2016, 09:45:49 AM »

The Durrie Parks acetate, presumably from December, has the "My children were raised . . . often wise" instrumental backing in it after the new Great Shape section.  Not a verse backing repeat.

So what backing is that? The "alternate version" has little to no backing on the first half Of the children verse. Or is it a harpsichord backing like on the released version?

Yes, there isn't much in the way of backing.  I'll ask my source and get back to you.  But apparently it was recognizably the fast "my children were raised" and not the verse backing, and there were no vocals.  Really this acetate needs to see a wider release as it is a key missing link in the song's development.
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mike moseley
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« Reply #194 on: July 13, 2016, 10:01:37 AM »

I don't think the fast 'my children' has any instruments at all until the piano comes in..?  I think its all created with backing vocals..?


The Durrie Parks acetate, presumably from December, has the "My children were raised . . . often wise" instrumental backing in it after the new Great Shape section.  Not a verse backing repeat.

So what backing is that? The "alternate version" has little to no backing on the first half Of the children verse. Or is it a harpsichord backing like on the released version?

Yes, there isn't much in the way of backing.  I'll ask my source and get back to you.  But apparently it was recognizably the fast "my children were raised" and not the verse backing, and there were no vocals.  Really this acetate needs to see a wider release as it is a key missing link in the song's development.
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« Reply #195 on: July 13, 2016, 08:22:57 PM »

According to my source, there's 8 bars of the great shape music, "then, harpsichord playing the my children were raised part, then back into the familiar H & V backing track."  I've asked him about the my children were raised part if there's silence before it (for the a Capella beginning of the section) or if there's harpsichord throughout.
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« Reply #196 on: July 14, 2016, 02:28:34 PM »

Maybe one day the music on the acetates will find its way online...
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« Reply #197 on: July 16, 2016, 06:14:27 AM »


and if I remember rightly:

'great shape' is a heavier arrangement we haven't heard yet

'my children' has the 'often wise' melody

i wonder if 'great shape' has a similar feel to the very early takes of 'false barnyard' before the ychanged the rhythm..?



According to my source, there's 8 bars of the great shape music, "then, harpsichord playing the my children were raised part, then back into the familiar H & V backing track."  I've asked him about the my children were raised part if there's silence before it (for the a Capella beginning of the section) or if there's harpsichord throughout.
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #198 on: July 21, 2016, 12:07:45 PM »


and if I remember rightly:

'great shape' is a heavier arrangement we haven't heard yet

'my children' has the 'often wise' melody

i wonder if 'great shape' has a similar feel to the very early takes of 'false barnyard' before the ychanged the rhythm..?



According to my source, there's 8 bars of the great shape music, "then, harpsichord playing the my children were raised part, then back into the familiar H & V backing track."  I've asked him about the my children were raised part if there's silence before it (for the a Capella beginning of the section) or if there's harpsichord throughout.

We REALLY NEED to hear that acetate! In my books, it's as much of a big deal as the Cantina acetate is! How I would love to hear a December '66 mixdown of Heroes!
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« Reply #199 on: July 21, 2016, 11:39:14 PM »


and if I remember rightly:

'great shape' is a heavier arrangement we haven't heard yet

'my children' has the 'often wise' melody

i wonder if 'great shape' has a similar feel to the very early takes of 'false barnyard' before the ychanged the rhythm..?
[/quote]

Mike, I think you might be right about that.  Sorry guys, but I believe that this is some kind of mix that includes early "false barnyard" with june '67 "my children.."

To support my claim if I'm not mistaken the guy who heard the acetate said there was bicycle rider part with kick drum that he never heard before and we all know about that part (SOT...), and DYDW with different voals whick have also been discussed on board here (Vigotone bootleg)....

But who knows, I would love to be proven wrong! Shocked
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