The initial structure of Heroes and Villains

[soniclovenoize]

If it was recorded for the #57045 master it was for the "H&V Part II"/"Side 2" master (as the session number 14247 they share in common shows).

If it was recorded for the #57020 master (as the session number 14236 they share in common shows) it was for what is Side 1. If it was recorded for #57020 as "part two" it is still for the #57020 Side 1 master.

Just as if it was recorded for the #57020 master as "part 3" or "part 4" it doesn't mean it was recorded for the third and fourth side of a three or four sided single, it is still for the #57020 master which is Side 1.

It is pretty simple imo.

Yeah I understand what you are saying, going simply by the master numbers.  But what was actually recorded doesn't really make sense as a B-side, since it was literally remakes of material already tracked and finished (at the time).  Assuming your theory is correct, you'd have the Cantina mix on side A and then just simply an alternate version of the A side as it's B-side (that likely would have sounded like http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/GsEfh80Z/file.html).  What would be the point?  It's certainly possible (anything is possible) but it seems more probable that Master 57045 was an attempt to re-record the A-side from scratch rather than a completely different track that mirrored the A-side... imo

[yonderhillside]

@soniclovenoize I can't help but crack up at the thought of you slapping together that mix to prove a point haha! 
Sounds kinda cool though, would be interesting to hear vocals over that. Check out my mix above. It's pretty rough but not bad for my 2nd attempt at using Audacity.

[Cam Mott]

I'd like to discuss this more but I'll have to wait until next week probable.

[yonderhillside]

I made a much better, different version of H&V today and am quite proud of it. It contains just about every idea Brian Wilson had for Heroes & Villains (damn near). It's 9 and a half minutes.

Heroes & Villains Pts. 1 & 2
Fire Intro > Been In This Town So Long > Piano Theme > Peace In The Valley > Barnyard > Psychedelic Sounds: Moaning/Laughing > Cantina > H&V Organ Waltz (an intermizzo) > I'm In Great Shape > Children Were Raised (Often Wise) > Three Score and Five > Tape Explosion > Sunny Down Snuff > Piano Theme > Old Master Painter

All original recordings, of course, but I added one or two very minimal edits/sound effects for smoother segueing purposes.

Enjoy.

http://www60.zippyshare.com/v/aCCI5fXq/file.html

[The_Holy_Bee]

Righto, going to have a go here at synthesizing the information available to us into some kind of timeline for 'Heroes'. I'll note whenever my own guesses or supposition come into play. Please disregard if it's not OT - or at least not in line with how the thread has developed.

February '66: VDP and BW 'reconnect' at a lawn party at Terry Melcher's house. [source: Wikipedia, and apparently the BW ‘autobiography’. Corrections and/or further information welcomed.] Pet Sounds is now complete, although work on a song initially recorded during those sessions - GV - continues.

‘Early May’ '66: The collaboration between VDP and BW begins with 'Heroes and Villians', written in 'the sandbox' in Wilson's home. [Badman, 2004] Both credit the other for the title, VDP saying: "I think he made that up. I think it was a great title, and he suggested it. To me, 'Heroes And Villains' sounds like a ballad out of the Southwest. That’s what it was intended to be—as good as any of those—and, really, to be a ballad. This Spanish and Indian fascination is a big chapter in Californian history, and that’s what it’s supposed to be—historically reflective, to reflect this place. I think it did it." [Priore, 2005]

May 11 '66: The first tracking session for H&V is held at Gold Star Studio A, including four sax players and, notably, apparently no French or 'flutterhorn' player. The resultant master is assigned the number #55999, and is timed at 2:45. Since the events described in the entry above are dated as 'Early May' by Badman, this means a total possible interval of ten days between the initial songwriting collaboration by VDP and BW and its recording in studio.

Later May ‘66: Al Kooper: ‘He also played me a rough tape of ‘Heroes and Villains’, which evolved, I believe, from a Wilson revamping of ‘You Are My Sunshine’.” [Kooper; Backstage Passes & Backstabbing Bastards, 2008]

Further, as related by Cam Mott earlier in this thread, quoting from his own email correspondance with Kooper in 2000:

[Cam]: Was the version of Brian Wilson's "Heroes and Villains" you heard at Brian's house in May '66 much different than the version that was released as a 45 and on Smiley Smile or the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations" boxset?

Al: yes-it was interpolated with "you are my sunshine." go figure…
Al Kooper 6/10/00

Al: IT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A BIZARRE ARRANGEMENT OF "SUNSHINE" HE MUST HAVE DECIDED LATER TO MAKE HIS OWN SONG OVER THE TRACK - THATS MY GUESS. ASK HIM - HE'S STILL ALIVE.
Al Kooper 9/21/00

Supposition: Is it possible, going from the above, that the VDP/BW collaboration began following this recording, perhaps as a result of it? Kooper certainly seems to suggest that this early version of ‘H&V’ didn’t so much feature a ‘YAMS’ section as was based upon a ‘bizarre arrangement’ of the traditional tune. If this is the case, it supports the idea - as do Parks’ recollections above - that BW’s first ‘assignment’ for VDP was providing new lyrics for a vague musical/thematic concept he had in mind; much like his prior work with Tony Asher - or, more specifically, an existing composition the lyrics/melody for which he had since grown dissatisfied (cf. ‘In My Childhood’/’You Still Believe in Me’.)

20 Oct ‘66: An afternoon’s tracking session occurs at Western Studio 3. Sections recorded are the ‘Verse’ and ‘Barnyard’.

27 Oct ‘66: ‘I’m in Great Shape’ tracked, under the title ‘Heroes and Villains: I’m in Great Shape’. [A vocal session under the title ‘I’m in Great Shape’ with all six Beach Boys appears to have been taped ten days earlier at Columbia Studio A, which C-man posits might have been the ‘Vega-Tables’ Cornucopia version - though this remains uncertain.]

4 Nov ‘66: Brian and VDP meet with DJ ‘Humble Harv’ Miller in the evening at Western Studio 3. A ‘demo’ piano-and-voice run through of H&V is taped, as well as some introductory chat, incorporating the first two verses of H&V (lyrics as released), Brian’s vocal imitation of a flutterhorn, ‘I’m in Great Shape’ - and ‘here’s another section, now’ - two attempts at Barnyard, the second apparently mainly so Brian can coax the right animal noises out of VDP.

Circa Nov/Dec ‘66: 'Brian sits in his bedroom playing the background track to "Heroes and Villains' for a reporter from New York. As the barnyard section comes over the speaker Brian leaps off of his bed. "I'VE GOT IT!" He laughs and jumps into the center of the room. "It's a color short. 16 mm. I'll shoot it. Next week. It's a chicken, and the chicken is wearing TENNIS SHOES. The chicken is wearing tennis shoes and he is bopping around the most beautiful pad. Paul Robbins' pad. Somebody get Robbins on the phone. We've got to shoot it next week!"' (from Teen Set, ‘67)

Supposition: If this extract is accurate, it implies an least partially sequenced ‘Heroes and Villians’ backing track which included ‘Barnyard’ existed at some point. Certainly the ‘demo’ as well as Siegel [in ‘Goodbye Surfing, Hello God!, 1967] confirm chickens played a key role in the lyric for this section: ‘Out in the farmyard the cook is chopping lumber; out in the barnyard the chickens do their number… [...] [C]ivilized chickens bobbed up and down in a tiny ballet of comic barnyard melody.’

13/14 Nov ‘66: ‘'It is a crisp, clear November night, and from Brian Wilson's living room, high atop Beverly Hills, the city glistens in patterns of light. Wilson sits at his piano. [...] Wilson turns to no one in particular and speaks. "'You Are My Sunshine' can happen another way. Listen." He plays a mournful series of chord patterns while singing a sad revision of the song "You were my sunshine, my only sunshine ..." The next night he is back at Goldstar and a studio full of cellos, strings, and percussion performing those same poignant chords.'
(Teen Set, '67)

‘Vosse: So one night we were over at his house and he started playing "You Are My Sunshine" by ... [...] Well, Brian started playing it slowly—almost like an R&B thing— just slowing down the tempo: really mournful. [...] and he started doing a "you were my sunshine" thing: he put the song in the past tune—and he was trying to find his bass rhythm for it: and in doing that he found this weird little riff that just sort of developed. And it hit him, man, right then that he wanted a barn yard—he wanted Old MacDonald's farm—he wanted all that stuff. So he immediately got Van Dyke over and they did a chart for "You were my sunshine," which ... It's so hard to remember exactly what he wound up doing because he changed things so much ... he wound up writing a clarinet part for it which is impossible to describe: a whole different sound that he found in the middle of all this ... and it developed into an instrumental thing with barnyard sounds—people sawing—he had people in the studio sawing on wood—and Van Dyke being a duck—and it was marvelous. It made you smile and at the same time touched you.’
[Fusion, 1969]

Nov 29, ‘66: ‘I Wanna Be Around/Workshop’ tracked - session logs give this recording the notation ‘(Great Shape)’.

'"Brian Wilson is cutting an album. He wants the sounds of a workshop for background on one of the tracks.’ [Teen Set]

Nov 30, ‘66: Dennis’ lead vocal for ‘You [Were] My Sunshine’ is taped, and the two parts (OMP/YAMS and the Part Two 'finale’/’Barnshine’ fade) edited together on this date. [TSS]

Supposition: Re: ‘You Are My Sunshine’ - there appear to be at least three separate SMiLE tracking sessions referenced in the above quotation from ‘Fusion’. ‘Heroes and Villians: Barnyard’ recorded (tracking and possibly backing vocals) at the second H&V session on 20 October; the past tense ‘You Were My Sunshine’ and preceding ‘Old Master Painter’ extract (‘he wound up writing a clarinet part for it which is impossible to describe’) recorded on 14 Nov; and 'IWBA/Workshop’ recorded on 29 Nov. It also appears to be the case that the traditional YAMS had indeed provided some of the impetus for H&V as far back as May.

So, one possible reading of this data: Mid-May ‘66, BW and VDP begin writing what is essentially a new song called ‘Heroes and Villians’, based on the music devised for the May 11 recording. 'Barnyard’ and ‘IIGS’ sections are written during the compositional process, and tracked as sections of H&V, as evidenced by the ‘demo’, the session logs, and the Teen Set excerpt. As part of this fresh start, YAMS is removed from the sequence, but it remains part of the fabric of the song for Brian, at least. Later, in November, Brian begins tooling around with the traditional tune again, finding a way to transform it into a minor key and past tense. Vosse recalls this ‘developed into [...] animal sounds’ - presumably the already recorded Heroes section ‘Barnyard’ - and, with greater, emphasis, the ‘Workshop’ recording. From this perspective, the apparent confusion over ‘what went with what’ is fairly understandable: if ‘Barnyard’ was a compositional surrogate for ‘YAMS’ in the second, BW/VDP version of H&V in mid ‘66, then it’s no surprise that Brian might connect the two later in ‘Nov in the circumstances Vosse describes. Further thoughts on ‘Workshop’ - and the sections later excised from H&V - in further supposition after the December diary entries.

Nov/Dec ‘66 [?]: One of the Durrie Parks acetates contains the following partial edit of 'Heroes and Villians', as described by ‘andy’ on these Boards:

In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five", and that then played out until the finish of the acetate.'

One can’t be sure, as dates are not available, but since none of the released ‘67 mixes or recording sessions contain any sign of IIGS (and, indeed, the Feb ‘single version’ features the 'Cantina' section in what appears to be the same spot, and ends with a re-recording of the OMP/YAMS fade, one of the first ‘cannibalisations’ of one SMiLE track into another), I’d say a pre-’67 dating for this assembly seems to be a reasonable assumption.

Dec ‘66 [?]: ‘Heroes and Villians: Intro [Early Version]’ (also referred to as ‘intro to part 3’) tracked.

13 [?] Dec ‘66*: ‘The Beach Boys are back from Europe, Thanksgiving has just passed and an awesome recording schedule faces them. The new album "Smile" and the new single "Heroes and Villains" must be completed by Christmas. Day and night and long weekend sessions are planned. Mike Love, Carl Wilson and Al Jardine huddle around one of the big playback speakers at Columbia Records, studio A ... (Brian records all over town—Western, Goldstar, Columbia .) .. twelve takes on one small section of background voices for "Heroes and Villains" have just been completed. Mike is not quite satisfied with his singing on a few bars. They go back into the studio. Over and over they re-record the difficult and complex harmony pattern until it is perfect. Then Brian takes them to the piano and teaches them more background to be overdubbed. The creative process here is as spontaneous as in the earlier track sessions. Carl has an idea and goes to the microphone alone laying in a lovely and funny little riff behind the choral effect.’
[Teen Set, Jan ‘67 - presumably referring to either the verse backing or the acapella section that follows the first two verses on most edits - * courtesy Andrew G Doe, via the research of C-Man - this is the earliest known ‘H&V’ vocal session if one doesn’t count the lost ‘I’m in Great Shape’ recording of 17 Oct]

Mid Dec ‘66: The ‘Capitol memo’ giving the 'not in correct order' tracklisting is apparently composed, including ‘I’m in Great Shape’ as a separate listing. Also worthy of note: the inclusion of ‘The Old Master Painter’ in scribbled-out parentheses.

Late Dec ‘66:
'PAUL: When I was there in December, Brian was thinking of "Heroes & Villains" as the single.
DAVID: Right. He would think of "Heroes & Villains," and then he would call up two nights later and say it was going to be this, and it was going to be that, and it was going to be "Heroes & Villains" again, and then everyone said, No, Brian, it should be "Heroes & Villains," no Brian it should be this...’
[Crawdaddy! Pt II, May 1968]

Conclusion (guesswork on the basis of above):

There are three major 1966 iterations of ‘Heroes and Villians’. The first, an instrumental recording tracked in mid-May and apparently played to Al Kooper from an acetate later that month, is an experimental catalyst for the song as we know it, a thematic concept based around a ‘bizarre arrangement’ of ‘You Are My Sunshine’. What’s more, it appears to have been recorded in a single 2:45 take (the third take providing the master) - already a far cry in approach from the deliberately ‘modular’ assembly of different tracking sections apparently undertaken in October, and also from the similarly-fragmented song with this name eventually released in mid-’67.

The second iteration is written by Brian and Van Dyke Parks, beginning sometime in May (and possibly completed, in compositional terms, that same month). By October 1966, at the latest, it includes sections entitled ‘I’m in Great Shape’ and ‘Barnyard’. Combining the ‘Humble Harv’ demo of November 4th ('Miller is excited: “That is going to be the greatest record anybody's ever heard"' - Teen Set) and the the ‘Durrie Parks’ assembly of three sections of the song, we have a possible sequence for [some of] this version as follows:

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', ‘here’s another section now’:] Barnyard.

Mid November, and on the evening of the 13th at his home, ‘a little high, I guess’, Brian returns to that initial May ‘66 fascination with ‘You Are My Sunshine’, only now putting it into a minor key and ‘the past tune’. He and Van Dyke put together some charts, and the number - including a new, major key pastoral coda (latterly known by fans as ‘Barnshine’, or ‘False Barnyard’) is tracked the following day. A subsequent ‘development’ from the YAMS experimenting, ‘IWBA/Workshop’, is recorded two weeks later, marked as ‘Great Shape’ on the logs.

December - pressure for a single mounts [Anderle/Vosse]. ‘Heroes’, by virtue of being ‘the closest thing to being finished, at that point’ [Anderle] is nominated. At the same time, the covers for the album need to be designed in preparation for a January release, and for the first time since the October session logs, the phrase ‘I’m in Great Shape’ appears in print. So does a track called ‘The Old Master Painter’ - though the parentheses included and then scratched out on the Capitol tracklist suggests the writer was unsure whether this two-part assembly would constitute its own track, or be a part of something else.

One possible interpretation of the above: Around mid-November, YAMS is recalled by Brian, re-enters ‘the mix’, and is possibly planned to conclude an expanded or revised ‘H&V’: indeed, possibly to provide an explicit ‘[grand] finale’ (as Part Two is described on the session tape). This is one possible explanation for the uncertainty on the memo as to whether the medley was in fact a standalone track.

As one result of this initiative, and/or the need for a more commercial/unified version of ‘Heroes’ for A-side release, the decision is also made to take IIGS, at least, and possibly ‘Barnyard’ too (as Vosse’s recollections could be seen to support the notion that the rural coda was at this time amended from the original ‘Barnyard’ tracking to the OMP ‘Part Two’ fade, also to be eventually added with high, wordless backing vocals by Brian) and build a new multi-section track around them. (An H&V ‘part two’, if you will.) ‘I Wanna Be Around (Great Shape)’ is conceived and taped in late November, quite possibly to provide some more meat on the bones of this new addition to the album's tracklisting.

That’s one interpretation of all of this stuff, anyway.

Which brings us to the end of 1966. I’ll head into Jan and Feb ‘67 in the next couple of days, if there’s any interest in me doing so. In the meantime, I’d be interested to hear any thoughts others have about the above.

[soniclovenoize]

The second iteration is written by Brian and Van Dyke Parks, beginning sometime in May (and possibly completed, in compositional terms, that same month). By October 1966, at the latest, it includes sections entitled ‘I’m in Great Shape’ and ‘Barnyard’. Combining the ‘Humble Harv’ demo of November 4th ('Miller is excited: “That is going to be the greatest record anybody's ever heard"' - Teen Set) and the the ‘Durrie Parks’ assembly of three sections of the song, we have a possible sequence for [some of] this version as follows:

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', ‘here’s another section now’:] Barnyard.

The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.  So your above described configuration from the Durrie Parks acetate couldn't have existed in 1966. 

Going over the session chronology, I'd say the December 1966 H&V would just have been simply Verse -> IIGS -> Barnyard, with possibly Chimes as an intro. 

[The_Holy_Bee]

The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.  So your above described configuration from the Durrie Parks acetate couldn't have existed in 1966.

Quite correct, SNL. I hadn't remembered - until reading your post and checking the TSS book - that the 'Often' version was recorded as late as that, and I'm grateful to you for pointing it out. Which means, if the description of that particular acetate is correct, there might be a version of 'Heroes' as late as Feb '67 (or, I suppose, later) which includes IIGS. Which is pretty interesting in and of itself.

What now mystifies me about this - unless I'm forgetting something obvious, which is quite likely - is the quoted

'harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single'.

I've just been listening to the '67 single, and it sounds largely acapella until the close of the verse, much like the 'often'-including version from the Feb mix. My ears (or laptop speakers) are probably faulty here - anyone able to add to this?

The TSS sessionography for Jan 27 lists only the vocalists, 'thigh slap' [Brian], 'Brillo pad percussion' [Dennis] and tack piano [Brian, apparently just the closing, very audible chords leading into 'Three score and five' on the Feb 'single version'l. If 'andy' did indeed hear a backing harpsichord in the DP acetate for this part - and that isn't, in fact, present on either version of this section which survive - then this might mean an earlier (or, I concede, later) version of 'Children Were Raised' that we're not otherwise aware of. Which would still allow for the possibility the acetate dates from '66, and one of the - probably several - 'Heroes' sessions for which no records or tapes currently exist.

Or I'm just not hearing/aware of a harpsichord in the June mix, which is quite possible too. Were the Parks still likely to be getting dubs of tracks as late as June and 'the single version'?

[The_Holy_Bee]

Going over the session chronology, I'd say the December 1966 H&V would just have been simply Verse -> IIGS -> Barnyard, with possibly Chimes as an intro.

A further thought - as I largely agree with what you've posted above:

The idea of the 'three minute musical comedy' - and I wish I could identify where that phrase came from; I'm sure someone else here can - has always intrigued me. By my estimation, the backing track for verses 1 & 2 of H&V (sans the acapella follow-up), IIGS and Barnyard get to about 2 minutes altogether. So, going by the 'Humble Harv' structure, at least, this allows another minute's worth of material. 'Intro to Part 3' fills most of this time, if we assume it was going to be edited in at full length. But I can't help but feel that Brian Wilson - a master at pop structure - would have included at least one repetition of the song's titular musical theme.

So, if indeed (and I do concede, pending responses to my post above, there may not be an if in the first place) there is an unyet-heard-by-the-masses '66 recording of 'Children are Raised', this and 'Three Score and Five' (about forty seconds altogether, depending on 'whistling bridge' etc) might well have constituted the 'Part 3' indicated by the nomenclature of the keyboard-and-percussion 'Chimes' section we've both mentioned above.

[Micha]

The second iteration is written by Brian and Van Dyke Parks, beginning sometime in May (and possibly completed, in compositional terms, that same month). By October 1966, at the latest, it includes sections entitled ‘I’m in Great Shape’ and ‘Barnyard’. Combining the ‘Humble Harv’ demo of November 4th ('Miller is excited: “That is going to be the greatest record anybody's ever heard"' - Teen Set) and the the ‘Durrie Parks’ assembly of three sections of the song, we have a possible sequence for [some of] this version as follows:

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', ‘here’s another section now’:] Barnyard.

The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.

True, but that goes only for the Cantina mix that survives. The lyric "My children.. 3 score&5 ...survive with the H&V" could have existed before, and just be sung over the verse track, as it's really a third verse lyrically/metrically/melodically.

[Cam Mott]

If it was recorded for the #57045 master it was for the "H&V Part II"/"Side 2" master (as the session number 14247 they share in common shows).

If it was recorded for the #57020 master (as the session number 14236 they share in common shows) it was for what is Side 1. If it was recorded for #57020 as "part two" it is still for the #57020 Side 1 master.

Just as if it was recorded for the #57020 master as "part 3" or "part 4" it doesn't mean it was recorded for the third and fourth side of a three or four sided single, it is still for the #57020 master which is Side 1.

It is pretty simple imo.

Yeah I understand what you are saying, going simply by the master numbers.  But what was actually recorded doesn't really make sense as a B-side, since it was literally remakes of material already tracked and finished (at the time).  Assuming your theory is correct, you'd have the Cantina mix on side A and then just simply an alternate version of the A side as it's B-side (that likely would have sounded like http://www48.zippyshare.com/v/GsEfh80Z/file.html).  What would be the point?  It's certainly possible (anything is possible) but it seems more probable that Master 57045 was an attempt to re-record the A-side from scratch rather than a completely different track that mirrored the A-side... imo

I don't know how Brian was intending to use the tracks he recorded for Part II/Side 2, I only see what he intended to use it for. He recorded several master takes all under the same session number shown to be used toward the same #57045 master for H&V Part II/Side 2. What he didn't use, or added to it, or altered (pitchwise etc.) I couldn't say.  I believe the documentation shows it wasn't a reboot of Side 1, #57020 was begun before and was on-going while and in between and continued after the recordings for #57045. Also #57045 is specifically identified as Part II/Side 2 (not Side 1) as opposed to just the title of H&V for the #57020 sessions (which is Side 1).

I disagree with the opinion that the cantina version was still the final form of #57020 Side 1 during the February/March recordings for #57045 Part II/Side 2 as there were already several sessions and new master takes for H&V #57020 including new part 2s, part 3, part 4 (for the side 3 and 4 he intended to carve the #57020 master into   ) etc. since the cantina version. But I agree there was a  post-cantina Side 1 #57020 in addition to the separate Side 2 #57045.

[Cam Mott]

Later May ‘66: Al Kooper: ‘He also played me a rough tape of ‘Heroes and Villains’, which evolved, I believe, from a Wilson revamping of ‘You Are My Sunshine’.” [Kooper; Backstage Passes & Backstabbing Bastards, 2008]

Further, as related by Cam Mott earlier in this thread, quoting from his own email correspondance with Kooper in 2000:

[Cam]: Was the version of Brian Wilson's "Heroes and Villains" you heard at Brian's house in May '66 much different than the version that was released as a 45 and on Smiley Smile or the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations" boxset?

Al: yes-it was interpolated with "you are my sunshine." go figure…
Al Kooper 6/10/00

Al: IT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A BIZARRE ARRANGEMENT OF "SUNSHINE" HE MUST HAVE DECIDED LATER TO MAKE HIS OWN SONG OVER THE TRACK - THATS MY GUESS. ASK HIM - HE'S STILL ALIVE.
Al Kooper 9/21/00

Supposition: Is it possible, going from the above, that the VDP/BW collaboration began following this recording, perhaps as a result of it? Kooper certainly seems to suggest that this early version of ‘H&V’ didn’t so much feature a ‘YAMS’ section as was based upon a ‘bizarre arrangement’ of the traditional tune. If this is the case, it supports the idea - as do Parks’ recollections above - that BW’s first ‘assignment’ for VDP was providing new lyrics for a vague musical/thematic concept he had in mind; much like his prior work with Tony Asher - or, more specifically, an existing composition the lyrics/melody for which he had since grown dissatisfied (cf. ‘In My Childhood’/’You Still Believe in Me’.)

Regarding his visits along with Anderle: "We visited Brian at home one evening, and Van Dyke, on several occasions when he lived over a garage in the valley with his first wife.”  Al Kooper 5/18/99


Regarding meeting Al Kooper: “As for Spring '66: Yes, I remember David Anderle's bringing Al over. Al came in and announced "I'm the East Coast Van Dyke Parks!" That took me aback, and it took me some time to figure that Al was just trying to be nice. It surprised me that I'd been heard of in NYC, by other than a few folk musicians. It was also a jolt that Al related to me as a keyboard player, which was a relatively new career interest for me.

I didn't know there were several musical versions of Joyce Kilmer's poem. I went over to Brian's house one evening, being asked, and sang a short solo on such a song. I wasn't "hanging out" with Brian alot during that time, but I can say fairly, every time I've been with Brian, something came of it.” VDP 5/23/99

[soniclovenoize]

Going over the session chronology, I'd say the December 1966 H&V would just have been simply Verse -> IIGS -> Barnyard, with possibly Chimes as an intro.

A further thought - as I largely agree with what you've posted above:

The idea of the 'three minute musical comedy' - and I wish I could identify where that phrase came from; I'm sure someone else here can - has always intrigued me. By my estimation, the backing track for verses 1 & 2 of H&V (sans the acapella follow-up), IIGS and Barnyard get to about 2 minutes altogether. So, going by the 'Humble Harv' structure, at least, this allows another minute's worth of material. 'Intro to Part 3' fills most of this time, if we assume it was going to be edited in at full length. But I can't help but feel that Brian Wilson - a master at pop structure - would have included at least one repetition of the song's titular musical theme.

So, if indeed (and I do concede, pending responses to my post above, there may not be an if in the first place) there is an unyet-heard-by-the-masses '66 recording of 'Children are Raised', this and 'Three Score and Five' (about forty seconds altogether, depending on 'whistling bridge' etc) might well have constituted the 'Part 3' indicated by the nomenclature of the keyboard-and-percussion 'Chimes' section we've both mentioned above.

I was thinking about this before bed last night...  "Tag To Part 1" was the next thing recorded in January for H&V, and that sort of implies that the first "part" (not the A & B side argument "part"!) of H&V is the aforementioned Verse/IIGS/Barnyard, and that he set out in January to finish the first half (or 2/3rds) of the single he already had in the can. 

I think the notion of solving any SMiLE problems with "Well there are some tapes that we simply haven't heard" is dangerous logic, I'm not sure we should rely on it.  Due to TSS, bootlegs and session logs, we should know, by now, what does and does not exist.  Of course there may be things that slipped through the cracks, but we shouldn't rely on that fact as the basis of any theories, because we just don't know either way. 

What now mystifies me about this - unless I'm forgetting something obvious, which is quite likely - is the quoted

'harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single'.

I've just been listening to the '67 single, and it sounds largely acapella until the close of the verse, much like the 'often'-including version from the Feb mix. My ears (or laptop speakers) are probably faulty here - anyone able to add to this?

The TSS sessionography for Jan 27 lists only the vocalists, 'thigh slap' [Brian], 'Brillo pad percussion' [Dennis] and tack piano [Brian, apparently just the closing, very audible chords leading into 'Three score and five' on the Feb 'single version'l. If 'andy' did indeed hear a backing harpsichord in the DP acetate for this part - and that isn't, in fact, present on either version of this section which survive - then this might mean an earlier (or, I concede, later) version of 'Children Were Raised' that we're not otherwise aware of. Which would still allow for the possibility the acetate dates from '66, and one of the - probably several - 'Heroes' sessions for which no records or tapes currently exist.

Or I'm just not hearing/aware of a harpsichord in the June mix, which is quite possible too. Were the Parks still likely to be getting dubs of tracks as late as June and 'the single version'?

This is my problem with that description of the Durie acetate...  The harpsichord was underneath the Smiley Smile recut of My Children, tracked in June.  Just exactly as you said above, why would the Parks have an acetate of June recordings?  Wasn't VDP gone by then?  And just as you said, was Brian really using IIGS in H&V in June? I suppose he could have, but is it probable? 

I think of that description of the acetates as urban legend, it's the SMiLE equivalent of Big Foot.  I'm not saying it's wrong, but it would make waaaaay more sense if that poster was just simply mistaken! 

True, but that goes only for the Cantina mix that survives. The lyric "My children.. 3 score&5 ...survive with the H&V" could have existed before, and just be sung over the verse track, as it's really a third verse lyrically/metrically/melodically.

Yeah, it could have been written, but I'm talking about what was recorded.  And as I said above, it's dangerous to write everything off as "Oh must be a tape we don't have". 

I don't know how Brian was intending to use the tracks he recorded for Part II/Side 2, I only see what he intended to use it for. He recorded several master takes all under the same session number shown to be used toward the same #57045 master for H&V Part II/Side 2. What he didn't use, or added to it, or altered (pitchwise etc.) I couldn't say.  I believe the documentation shows it wasn't a reboot of Side 1, #57020 was begun before and was on-going while and in between and continued after the recordings for #57045. Also #57045 is specifically identified as Part II/Side 2 (not Side 1) as opposed to just the title of H&V for the #57020 sessions (which is Side 1).

I disagree with the opinion that the cantina version was still the final form of #57020 Side 1 during the February/March recordings for #57045 Part II/Side 2 as there were already several sessions and new master takes for H&V #57020 including new part 2s, part 3, part 4 (for the side 3 and 4 he intended to carve the #57020 master into   ) etc. since the cantina version. But I agree there was a  post-cantina Side 1 #57020 in addition to the separate Side 2 #57045.

Yeah I understand what you are saying, but I suppose we are looking at it a bit differently, which is OK. 

I am not going to jump to the conclusion that Master 57045 was the mythical H&V Part 2 just because one of the pieces was slated as such (but not the other pieces).  Think about it: many people have said there was no Part 2, including Brian himself.  Linett said they could not find any evidence of a Part 2.  But if you are right, wouldn't those folks know of Master 57045?  "No there is no H&V Part 2, oh wait here's Master 57045, nevermind."  But that never happened. 

On the other hand, assuming the mythical H&V Part 2 was recorded under the same Master 57020 as one continuous piece that would eventually be split in half for the single (just like Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone", as I already said), that would support the reports of a six-minute Heroes and Villains.  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. 

What sections were recorded concurrently?  Perhaps I am misreading the data. 

[Cam Mott]

Yeah I understand what you are saying, but I suppose we are looking at it a bit differently, which is OK.  

I am not going to jump to the conclusion that Master 57045 was the mythical H&V Part 2 just because one of the pieces was slated as such (but not the other pieces).  Think about it: many people have said there was no Part 2, including Brian himself.  Linett said they could not find any evidence of a Part 2.  But if you are right, wouldn't those folks know of Master 57045?  "No there is no H&V Part 2, oh wait here's Master 57045, nevermind."  But that never happened.  

On the other hand, assuming the mythical H&V Part 2 was recorded under the same Master 57020 as one continuous piece that would eventually be split in half for the single (just like Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone", as I already said), that would support the reports of a six-minute Heroes and Villains.  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.  

What sections were recorded concurrently?  Perhaps I am misreading the data.  

We don't see any evidence that there was an H&V Part 2 even though all of the #57045 master takes are titled "Heroes and Villains - Part 2" unlike the other H&V master takes for the other "Heroes and Villains" masters including those for #57020 which are not titled as a "part 2"?  All of the #57045 sections' master takes share a session number which is for the "Part II" #57045 master including the one noted as both "Part II" and "Side 2".  Even without that "Side 2" note, #57045 is still master takes sharing a session number toward a single master for "Part II" of H&V, so if one is for the Side 2 master they all are.  

I don't think it would be jumping to conclusions. To me this has much more evidence for it than almost anything else that is considered settled history.

I'm not a Dylan expert, but wasn't LARS master recorded as a single master take?  Brian's masters were recorded in sections under a session number assigned to a master and compiled from several master takes under that session number for that master number. #57020 and #57045 where recorded and documented with single separate session numbers of their own for separate assigned masters of their own assigned for different sides. One is H&V #57020 and the other is H&V Part 2 #57045. I don't think Dylan applies to H&V #57020 and H&V Part 2 #57045.

[ash]

I'm in agreement with Cam on this Pt 1 Pt 2 issue.
Some additional points which are obviously my opinion rather than hard fact.

Tag to part 1 - do we know what the designated part 1 was at this time - one of BW problems was where to go after the first two verses. Were these part 1 and did they end with the accapella verse (like Cantina version) or one of the vocal links ?
In terms of missing tapes we know that there are missing tapes - December 19th sessions (which was largely strings iirc) could be key to putting bits together.
On the other hand it might not. The transition to part 3 from December is highly problematic as is where to go after part 3. It's in a funny key isn't it ??
October 17th is still amystery, there is some suggestion it might have been Veg Cornucopia rather than Great Shape. Maybe it was Great Shape and the acetate version of My Children, we just don't know.
Didn't Alan or Mark say on this board that there are several Heroes tape boxes with no tape ? aarrgghh.
There are some tapes we simply haven't heard and that applies to the whole Smile period.
Re the Durrie acetate -according to the person who heard and described it,  it has a different Great Shape backing  we haven't heard. I don't see why the My Children were raised with a harpsichord backing is a problem - that could have been done at any number of sessions October to December and then Brian could have gone back to the idea for the single.
My Children appears in both the Cantina and final single, along with verse 1 and 2 it occurs in some shape or form in both versions. So does an accapella verse.
The Great Shape Heroes / 3 minute musical comedy could consist of Verse 1, 2, Great Shape, My Children, Accapella verse, Barnyard or verse 1 verse 2, accapella. great shape, my children, barnyard which could pan out at xlose to 3 minutes depending on the length of great shape and barnyard.
Regarding part 1 and part 2 - didn't Vosse say BW had recorded it but not edited it together ?
I have a British demonstration copy of Like A Rolling Stone by Dylan - same master number both sides. Agree with Cam that we can't use the Dylan single as a guide.
That January 3rd reel is highly problematic - 3 different versions of Ah = one ending on c sharp, one quicker ending on the A flat and one ending on a hummed F7. Was he gonna use that vocal riff 3 times in the same song ?
I could go on....
I would love it if Alan and Mark could post pictures of all the Heroes tape boxes / notations. Not sure it would help our quest but it would be something to drool over.
I wonder how hard the band looked through their personal archives and storage facilities for tape reels and acetates, didn't Durrie find the auctioned acetates after the box was issued? they were a second batch weren't they ? she did also say that she should have all the video tapes somewhere that were shot with the video camera given to Brian.
At the end of the day it's fun to speculate. I wish Brian and Van had recorded home demos (and kept them). I so badly want there to be an answer to all these Smile questions but after 30 years of listening to, playing with the recorded pieces and recording my own versions I fear we are in Magnificent Ambersons territory. Unless somewhere at Capitol or in The Beach Boys archive there are a pile of tapes in the wrong boxes or as yet unplayed but i think Alan said they'd now been through everything.
and remember , someone said BW had a finished Heroes, played it to someone who said it wasn't as good as Good Vibrations and BW then wiped it.
aarrgghhh.

 

[The_Holy_Bee]

I think of that description of the acetates as urban legend, it's the SMiLE equivalent of Big Foot.  I'm not saying it's wrong, but it would make waaaaay more sense if that poster was just simply mistaken!  

If you have a look through that thread, 'andy' gives pretty solid evidence that he did in fact hear the acetates and the circumstances under which he heard them, despite some initial and understandable skepticism from other posters. So 'urban legend' - unless one's suggesting 'andy' was lying in a pretty major way, or I'm misunderstanding your use of the term - seems a bit over the top here.

This is my problem with that description of the Durie acetate...  The harpsichord was underneath the Smiley Smile recut of My Children, tracked in June.  Just exactly as you said above, why would the Parks have an acetate of June recordings?  Wasn't VDP gone by then?  And just as you said, was Brian really using IIGS in H&V in June? I suppose he could have, but is it probable?  

Right, so in context of your points above, we seem to have the following three options:

A) 'Andy' never heard - or substantively misremembered, despite posting his descriptions (apparently) only a short time after listening to the acetates - an edit of H&V which included a harpsichord backing for 'Children Were Raised', following a version of IIGS
B) 'Andy' heard an edit of H&V that included the harpsichord backing from the single version of 'Children Were Raised', following a version of IIGS, which was provided to the Parks in June (or later) of 1967
C) 'Andy' heard an edit of H&V that included an otherwise unbooted/unreleased harpsichord backing, following a version of IIGS, similar to that in the single version of 'Children Were Raised', which was provided to the Parks in late 1966/early 1967

Of these, A strikes me - on re-reading the related thread - as the least likely. B is possible, but doesn't seem all that likely either, for the reasons I think we agreed on above. Going by the principle of Ockham's razor, this would seem (to me, natch) to leave C (the least obviously unlikely to be true) as the most sensible position to take - bearing in mind this might well change should new info come to light.

EDIT: Crud. The final acetate includes the backing of the Redwood version of 'Time to Get Alone', cut in October '67. So who knows? Maybe IIGS really was thrown back into the mix for a bit in June '67, and the Parks supplied with a dub of it. As you were.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Regarding part 1 and part 2 - didn't Vosse say BW had recorded it but not edited it together ?

Is this the quote you're referring to?

"[ S ]o at that point they decided to concentrate on the single, "Heroes and Villains" - of which there must have been a dozen versions. The best version I heard, which was never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes. It was a beautifully structured work; and Van Dyke was still very involved.'
[Fusion, 1969]

I'm not a Dylan expert, but wasn't LARS master recorded as a single master take?

Yep. The issued LARS is Take 4 (second day), though there were no less than 11 subsequent attempts, funnily enough. It was only released on two sides of a 45 as it was believed DJs were unlikely to play a six minute track on the air, though many in fact bodged the two halves together, and did.

[yonderhillside]

The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.  So your above described configuration from the Durrie Parks acetate couldn't have existed in 1966. 

Going over the session chronology, I'd say the December 1966 H&V would just have been simply Verse -> IIGS -> Barnyard, with possibly Chimes as an intro. 

Now, when you refer to Chimes, are you meaning the song Wind Chimes or is this some snippet from H&V that's titled something differently on box set?

[AndrewHickey]

The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.  So your above described configuration from the Durrie Parks acetate couldn't have existed in 1966. 

Going over the session chronology, I'd say the December 1966 H&V would just have been simply Verse -> IIGS -> Barnyard, with possibly Chimes as an intro. 

Now, when you refer to Chimes, are you meaning the song Wind Chimes or is this some snippet from H&V that's titled something differently on box set?

I assumed the reference there was to Intro [Early Version] -- track six on disc two of the Smile Sessions box. Thirty-five seconds of the up-and-down scales a la Fire, with the main melody played on chimes.

[yonderhillside]

The problem is that the My Children section wasn't recorded until 1/27/67.  So your above described configuration from the Durrie Parks acetate couldn't have existed in 1966. 

Going over the session chronology, I'd say the December 1966 H&V would just have been simply Verse -> IIGS -> Barnyard, with possibly Chimes as an intro. 

Now, when you refer to Chimes, are you meaning the song Wind Chimes or is this some snippet from H&V that's titled something differently on box set?

I assumed the reference there was to Intro [Early Version] -- track six on disc two of the Smile Sessions box. Thirty-five seconds of the up-and-down scales a la Fire, with the main melody played on chimes.

Yeah that was my guess, I just hadn't heard anyone refer to it as Chimes. 'Tis what I use as my intro to H&V. It sounds more darkly psychedelic, which is a bit more, anecdotally speaking, the bag Brian seems to have been in at the time.

[ash]

Regarding part 1 and part 2 - didn't Vosse say BW had recorded it but not edited it together ?

Is this the quote you're referring to?

"[ S ]o at that point they decided to concentrate on the single, "Heroes and Villains" - of which there must have been a dozen versions. The best version I heard, which was never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes. It was a beautifully structured work; and Van Dyke was still very involved.'
[Fusion, 1969]

Yep, that's the one and crikey would I like to hear that ! I wonder if that was the one that Mike Love played for a journalist or whether there were 2 "long" versions.

[Cam Mott]

I'm in agreement with Cam on this Pt 1 Pt 2 issue.

Thanks, ash.  Maybe someone has pointed this out in the past and I don't remember it or missed it because it's always been smack dab simple and in plain sight, but I feel like I've cracked the code on a 50 year old mystery.

(Stuff guys say just before they are proven wrong)

[The_Holy_Bee]

Thanks, ash.  Maybe someone has pointed this out in the past and I don't remember it or missed it because it's always been smack dab simple and in plain sight, but I feel like I've cracked the code on a 50 year old mystery.

(Stuff guys say just before they are proven wrong)

I only just realized that in all my pontifications on Heroes etc, here and on various threads, I've never offered my thanks to Cam for identifying the fact of the respective early '67 master numbers, and putting together a very solid thesis regarding the 'A side/B side' version of Heroes on the basis of them. Part of this is simply because - in the light of contradictory data coming to light - I was quickly satisfied that the 'code' was indeed 'cracked' (this part of it, anyway) and didn't feel I had any further comment to make on the subject. But I do think it's an excellent insight, and sound piece of reasoning, that has shone some light on one of the big SMiLE mysteries. So thank you, Cam.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Further to my epic post above, and bearing in mind the ongoing discussion of 'Part 1/Part 2' master numbers, is this a plausible piece of conjecture:

Oct/Nov: H&V includes - Verses, IIGS, Barnyard (possibly 'Children Were Raised' and 'Three Score', possibly not), the backing being played to the reporter in New York and giving Brian the idea for a nascent 'music video' as inspired by the 'Barnyard' section [Teen Set]

Mid-Nov/Dec (after the 13/14 Nov 'OMP/YAMS/Barnshine' creation and development related by Vosse) - H&V includes (at least): Verses, OMP/YAMs, 'Barnshine' 'finale'. This then 'develops into' - ie. is followed by/related to - 'Barnyard' proper, IIGS and 'I Wanna Be Around/Workshop (Great Shape)', now grouped under the title 'I'm in Great Shape' as per the memo.

This could be seen as effectively a 'Heroes Part II'; certainly IIGS and Barnyard first appear in recorded history as part of that song. Regarding YAMS, this seems to have been a part of 'Heroes' - if not the underlying musical basis, as described by Al Kooper - in May '66, before re-emerging in the middle of November and appearing (with a certain level of uncertainty indicated by the scribbled-out parentheses) on the Capitol tracklisting in Dec.

'PAUL: When I was there in December, Brian was thinking of "Heroes & Villains" as the single.
DAVID: Right. He would think of "Heroes & Villains," and then he would call up two nights later and say it was going to be this, and it was going to be that, and it was going to be "Heroes & Villains" again, and then everyone said, No, Brian, it should be "Heroes & Villains," no Brian it should be this...’
[Crawdaddy! Pt II, May 1968]

VOSSE: ‘So, in the studio, things were going off and on: the album was moving very slowly, and it missed its Christmas release -- so at that point they decided to concentrate on the single, "Heroes and Villains" - of which there must have been a dozen versions. The best version I heard, which was never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes. It was a beautifully structured work; and Van Dyke was still very involved.’
[Fusion, 1969]

Jan '67: Work continues/begins on a dedicated 'two part' Heroes. Now IIGS and Barnyard (appear to have been) have been siphoned off from the version described under 'Oct/Nov', and 'Workshop' possibly devised to supplement them, January sees logged sessions occur on the 3rd, 20th and 27th (under master number #57020) for what Cam persuasively argues may have been 'Heroes Pt I', the A-side of a projected two-sided single. These are mainly vocal sessions, with limited percussive and piano accompaniment. These recordings also produce relatively brief, musically stand-alone sections ('Do a Lot'/'Cantina') and transitions  ('Mission Pak'/'Bridge to Indians'). No further vocal or tracking work on the verses - the first two of these being the only common factor between all known full edits of the song - occurs. There is also a Jan 5 session for the 'Bicycle Rider' chorus vocals, logged as 'Heroes and Villians Part 2' - the first use of Master #57045, and the first time the 'Part 2' nomenclature appears in the logs for H&V. Interestingly, it's also the first recorded incidence we have of a section of one SMiLE song being re-recorded for apparent inclusion in another.

About this time, many of the 'Vosse Posse' - key collaborators and confidants during the late '66 period - are beginning to, or have made their departures.

Feb '67: Known sessions occur on the 15th, 20th, 27th and 28th; (according to logs, tapes missing) vocal sessions also took place on the 24th and 26th. Going by the master numbers, if we assume Cam's part 1/part 2 argument to be correct, most of the month (until that of the 27th) is spent producing/replacing further sections for the A-side of the single. First up is a remake of Part 2 of 'The Old Master Painter', complete with concluding flutterhorn, now entitled 'Prelude to Fade'. (VDP is present and apparently actively involved at this session.) The next thing recorded (exact date unknown) seems to be a tack piano version of 'Heroes and Villians: Piano Theme', including parts based on the DYLW chorus. These two sections, edited in this sequence could - and I emphasis, could - have been intended as the 'Prelude to' and 'Fade' respectively of the A-side as it then stood.

The 20th sees mainly vocal performances (with Brian's tack piano backing) of more short sections, such as 'Gee' and 'Part 3 (Animals)', all still under the same master number (#57020) as that used in January. The 'Bicycle Rider' section repurposed from DYLW is now seemingly a key part of 'Heroes', with multiple vocal variations on this theme attempted. The 'single version' first released on the 1990 'Smiley Smile/Wild Honey' twofer is apparently mixed around this time; apart from 'Cantina', 'Children Were Raised' (both tracked in Jan) and (sorta) the 'Prelude to Fade' (15 Feb) this edit apparently features comparatively little of the new material recorded in the post '66 sessions.

Work starts to slow down again: the 27th sees the final (as in used in the eventual single release) backing recorded for the 'Bicycle Rider'-derived chorus, now called 'Heroes and Villians: Part Two'. Interestingly, this also sees the use of the master number #57045. On the 28th, the 'Old Master Painter' coda is re-recorded again, called simply 'Fade', with Van Dyke Parks once again in the studio. ('Not that it matters,' to quote the seminal English comedian Peter Cook, 'but it is important.') At this point, the section is also recorded under Master #57045, possibly implying it's now meant to close off Part Two.

March 3: The verse is remade, and the 'Intro: Early Version' ('Chimes') section remade into what would later be known as the 'Fire Intro'. These are both under master #57045. Work is then effectively suspended on the number until June.

Cam - sorry for the turnabout, and especially if you've covered this elsewhere - but what's your position on why a verse remake would occur under a 'Part Two' master number? Do you think it's likely that Brian intended to use the original verse backing for the A-side, and a new, simplified form for the B?.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but going through the sessionography this aspect does confuse me a bit.

[soniclovenoize]

Yeah I understand what you are saying, but I suppose we are looking at it a bit differently, which is OK.  

I am not going to jump to the conclusion that Master 57045 was the mythical H&V Part 2 just because one of the pieces was slated as such (but not the other pieces).  Think about it: many people have said there was no Part 2, including Brian himself.  Linett said they could not find any evidence of a Part 2.  But if you are right, wouldn't those folks know of Master 57045?  "No there is no H&V Part 2, oh wait here's Master 57045, nevermind."  But that never happened.  

On the other hand, assuming the mythical H&V Part 2 was recorded under the same Master 57020 as one continuous piece that would eventually be split in half for the single (just like Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone", as I already said), that would support the reports of a six-minute Heroes and Villains.  I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.  

What sections were recorded concurrently?  Perhaps I am misreading the data.  

We don't see any evidence that there was an H&V Part 2 even though all of the #57045 master takes are titled "Heroes and Villains - Part 2" unlike the other H&V master takes for the other "Heroes and Villains" masters including those for #57020 which are not titled as a "part 2"?  All of the #57045 sections' master takes share a session number which is for the "Part II" #57045 master including the one noted as both "Part II" and "Side 2".  Even without that "Side 2" note, #57045 is still master takes sharing a session number toward a single master for "Part II" of H&V, so if one is for the Side 2 master they all are.  

I don't think it would be jumping to conclusions. To me this has much more evidence for it than almost anything else that is considered settled history.

I'm not a Dylan expert, but wasn't LARS master recorded as a single master take?  Brian's masters were recorded in sections under a session number assigned to a master and compiled from several master takes under that session number for that master number. #57020 and #57045 where recorded and documented with single separate session numbers of their own for separate assigned masters of their own assigned for different sides. One is H&V #57020 and the other is H&V Part 2 #57045. I don't think Dylan applies to H&V #57020 and H&V Part 2 #57045.

I feel like this is selective reasoning.  Why?  because there was already two different Part 2s recorded under Master Number 57020: Gee and Anvil.  Then there was a Part 3! And then, Part Two and a Side Two, etc for the new Master.  It feels like you are picking and choosing which was a part of Part 1 and which was actually a Part 2 based on a master number that coincidentally coincides with Brian restarting the whole song from scratch.  I admit it's convenient and sits well on paper, but the practicality does not.  Again, look at what was recorded rather than what the number is.  Book smarts vs street smarts... 

It's more probable that all of these designations of Part 2, Part 2 Revised, Part Two, Side 2, etc are all parts of one composition rather than two separate sides for a single.  That is already the precedent that Brian set, why is that logic discarded here?  That is probably why some doubt there was a Part 1 and Part 2 single to begin with--it's all one piece with two halves, the first part and the second part (hence Tag to Part 1).  Brian was able to construct a "part 1" of H&V (meaning the Verse/IIGS/Barnyard in Dec 66, or Verse/My Children in Jan 67, or Verse/A Capella in Feb 67, etc) but he could not figure out where to go next to the "part 2" (first Cantina/My Children/Three Score in Feb 67, then Part 2/Part 2 Revised/Part 3 a week later, and then the aped Bicycle Rider and decided "Forget it, this is not working, I need to start all over from the beginning with a new master number"). 

[Cam Mott]

Thanks THB for the recognition and discussion. Maybe I misunderstood but the first recording for a master take of a section of the #57045 master was January 5th.

It is sort of a bang-your-forehead moment. We were looking for evidence of Brian's 2 part H&V single, and let's see he was recording for "H&V" under the same session number (14236 thru 14236-R) and same master # (#57020). He was also recording at the same time an "H&V-Part II" all under a different unique session number (14247 thru 14247-D) and master number (#57045) and one of those master takes is marked as "Side 2". Hhhhhhhmmmmmmm?.....Nope, We don't see it.

I think I might have even written an essay back in the day on the Smile Shop arguing there was no evidence for an H&V Part 2.  

I don't know what he intended for the verse remake, but the Part 2/Side 2 recordings seem to have things in common imo. First thing I notice is that a few of the Part 2 #57045 master takes are noted as to intention: "insert", "intro", "Side 2". The #57045 remake of the OMP fade still sounds like a fade imo. They are sort of samples of songs from the 12 track list including H&V but with a difference from their recordings for the 12 track list version of the songs.  As I remember, Brian even says on the session for the #57045 "verse remake" that it is a different version or sound or some such.

My speculation is that a structure is hinted at. The sections recorded for "H&V Part 2" 57045, collectively, are an intentional or unintentional re-tuned sampler of the 12 track album. The "verse remake" seems to me to just drone on which makes me wonder if it wasn't some sort bed for something like out-takes or some of comedy bits.  Maybe in the end, if/when we hear the actual thing, only some or even none of his intentions at the time made it to the final master.