The initial structure of Heroes and Villains

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Mujan, youre totally losing me on the whole skits are supposed to be everywhere, brian wilsons edit choices arent that good, workshop is air, iigs has nothing to do with anything/is an outake, omp/barnyard are not related, etc..

i have a hard time knowing whether or not youre trolling.. i mean all the long posts trying discrediting sources and actual insightful information and theories with actual historical support... to posts like suggesting  a multi skit VT??

yes, there is a lot to SMiLE that is unknown, but where are you coming up with this stuff?

Honestly, thats just a plain rude thing to say, and the first post on this board in two years Ive taken legitimate offense to. I think its pretty telling that rather than try to meaningfully reply or refute my arguments you seem so opposed to point for point, the best you can do is accuse me of trolling. I realize I dont mince words when telling someone I think theyre wrong, but at least I offer them the respect that their ideas are being presented in good faith and would appreciate the same dignity. You've been hounding me with the same talking points for awhile now from Vosse--which I read in order to engage you and others who presented his and other articles as "must read" and while it was certainly informative, I dont see how your theory constitutes "insightful information" and Ive explained why at length twice now. If you wont defend why you feel your speculation gleamed from that sole source somehow negates the physical evidence Ive presented against it, then that is your business. But I'll thank you to NOT be obnoxious about it, first by bringing it up in an off topic message and now this namecalling out of the blue.

Are you really unaware of the Psychedelic Sounds bootleg? If so, I suggest you google it and give it at least a cursory listen. I provided you, and others the same time and respect by reading the articles you pushed so hard as irrefutable evidence and even writing legitimate, thoughtful dissertations on them. I also provided a very thorough explanation of what the PS skits were and why they are relevant to such discussions in my lengthy post responding to your elements theory you would not stop shoving down my throat. Had you actually bothered to read it, you wouldnt even need to listen.

The more I consider it, I seriously believe youre being intentionally malicious and spiteful. Why? Because youre deliberately misrepresenting what Ive said. And while I may not be the friendliest, cuddliest person on here sometimes when debating this stuff, thats something Ive NEVER done to anyone, and dont appreciate having done to me.

I never said Workshop is Air, or even an element. And you KNOW that, Ive stated as much multiple times in posts that were largely directed at you. There is no reason to even bring this up except to deliberately get a rise out of me, or again, youre just incessantly bothering me with your Elements theory without even reading anything I write in return, which I consider borderline-harassing behavior either way.

Youre taking me COMPLETELY out of context saying IIGS/Barnyard dont make sense. I was obviously speaking in terms of H&V, and even went out of my way to say they make sense together. This should be obvious to anyone with a basic reading comprehension.

I have legitimate reasons why I think OMP doesnt belong with Barnyard and I stated it in no uncertain terms, in at least 2 long, honest posts. Did you even bother to read them, or again, is this just your way of bullying me? Its telling that rather than disprove me, or argue your case more in depth, write some kind of point by point reply in good faith...you resort to this petty name calling and personal attack. It shouldnt be that hard to refute what I said about this or elements if you actually had anything of substance to contribute except just the same forced interpretations of one article. And either way, I dont understand why you keep annoying me about my own interpretation in both instances. Seriously, I presented my case for both as clearly as possible. Youre free to do the same or leave it alone. But this is the third thread youve brought these disagreements up in for no reason whatsoever. You seriously just wont let it go, and yet you have nothing constructive to say--again, something I consider hateful behavior.

Im allowed to think Brian's (really, Mark and Alan's interpretations of) H&V/2 on the boxset isnt the best. It's called having an opinion and just because I like SMiLE that doesnt mean everything recorded for it or every possible combination of the pieces is gold. Brian may be one of my heroes, but even the people you admire make what you consider to be mistakes sometimes, or release material thats not as good as others. And he himself must not have thought it was that good either since he didnt release it that way, wouldnt you think?

Funny how its only "historical information" when it suits your argument, and whenever anyone has a valid piece of evidence that calls it into question, like the PS skits, or else questions whether the evidence is being interpreted correctly or means what you think it means (like Vosse happening to mention WC after Elements, or hearing Brian play OMP a certain way one random night--thats flimsy "evidence" at best, totally reaching at worst) its "trolling." How immature are you, that anyone with a different take is trolling? I realize Im no doubt annoying to certain people here when I push my theories, but at least I respond to them at length and in good faith, not just putting words in their mouth and accusing them of trolling.

This post was low, man. Totally uncalled for. I'll thank you to kindly stop policing me for having different takes on this album than you. Personally, I think a lot of the theories put forth about SMiLE by people are totally misguided and I have no problem telling them so when it arises. But what I dont do is constantly bring it up thread to thread and make a big self important show of calling them out randomly when I wanna get my kicks. Ive stated my side on our major disagreements very thoroughly and clearly because I dont want to keep rehashing the same things over and over, and Id prefer to leave it at that. Because unless you can come up with something better than "well I think when Vosse says this it means that" than Im not interested, Im not convinced, and the whole thing is just a waste of time. Id like to be able to post without you trailing behind berating me thread to thread with the same solitary point and a smug attitude about it now. It was annoying before, but after this last post I consider it willfully hurtful.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Wasnt that theory completely disproven in the other SMiLE thread?

Not that I know of.

I think so. The "your smile mix" thread, a few pages back.

Not that I see. Where and by whom?

Page 9, and into 10

Here are the Heroes & Villains Sessions with master numbers of #57020 & #57045 (and their recording dates) according to the TSS book (I entered them into my iTunes tags, very helpful, but also DISCLAIMER: I may always have entered in something incorrectly). [not pictured, My Only Sunshine Part 1 & 2 has master numbers of both #56866 & #57020, presumably because Part 2 ends up as the fade in Heroes & Villains for a spell]



Not included in this image are the Heroes & Villains sessions with master numbers #56727 (Verse, Barnyard, and the June Smiley Smile version recordings), #56738 (Great Shape), and sessions with no known master number (such as "Intro [Early Version" which is slated as Heroes & Villains Part 3)

Nope, nothing contradicted the evidence for a #57045 H&V Part 2/Side 2 master. 

A verse remake, intro and BR overdubs seem to be something youd expect in Side 1, not 2. Id personally love for your theory to be true, itd make things so much simpler, but I really dont think its that clear cut unfortunately

[Micha]

If there ever a stand-alone track called "Heroes And Villains, part 2" was planned, I don't think it was the second half of one whole song, but related to "Heroes And Villains" in the same way as "Shut Down, part 2" is related to "Shut Down". The A-side wouldn't have been "Heroes And Villains, part 1" but plain "Heroes And Villains" proper, the whole of it as it was supposed to be, and the B-side "Heroes And Villains, part 2" joyful fooling around with the intention to avoid using a track from Pet Sounds nor from SMiLE as a B-side. Brian is quoted with not wanting to use an album track, maybe just recording himself with a piano for the B-side, but not having decided yet.

[Cam Mott]

A verse remake, intro and BR overdubs seem to be something youd expect in Side 1, not 2. Id personally love for your theory to be true, itd make things so much simpler, but I really dont think its that clear cut unfortunately

None of us knows how it worked (except those who have, or have heard, the actual thing) but still it seems to me the facts are: witnesses said there was a version of the H&V single with 2 sides. Brian had concurrent masters for H&V from January to early March, one was #57020 which is the master for side 1 of the actual H&V single and a second master #57045 logged as H&V Part II and noted as "Side 2" on one of the master's tapes and all* #57045 sessions also sharing the same progressive session number of 14247, 14247-A, 14247-B, 14247-C, 14247-D*.

Regardless of our personal opinions, it still seems to me that pretty good evidence of what Brian recorded for the side 2 of the two-sided H&V single has been staring us in the face the whole time but maybe obscured or confused by the side 1 master #57020 having sections that were slated a "part 2" and "part 3" etc..

*all subject to correction by c-man's newer and better information. For instance, did the "verse remake" of March 3 for H&V Part II master #57045 also share the progressive session number of 14247-? with the rest of the #57045 sessions?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

A verse remake, intro and BR overdubs seem to be something youd expect in Side 1, not 2. Id personally love for your theory to be true, itd make things so much simpler, but I really dont think its that clear cut unfortunately

None of us knows how it worked (except those who have, or have heard, the actual thing) but still it seems to me the facts are: witnesses said there was a version of the H&V single with 2 sides. Brian had concurrent masters for H&V from January to early March, one was #57020 which is the master for side 1 of the actual H&V single and a second master #57045 logged as H&V Part II and noted as "Side 2" on one of the master's tapes and all* #57045 sessions also sharing the same progressive session number of 14247, 14247-A, 14247-B, 14247-C, 14247-D*.

Regardless of our personal opinions, it still seems to me that pretty good evidence of what Brian recorded for the side 2 of the two-sided H&V single has been staring us in the face the whole time but maybe obscured or confused by the side 1 master #57020 having sections that were slated a "part 2" and "part 3" etc..

*all subject to correction by c-man's newer and better information. For instance, did the "verse remake" of March 3 for H&V Part II master #57045 also share the progressive session number of 14247-? with the rest of the #57045 sessions?

Were the two masters used for different sessions at the same time--serious question. Thats certainly pretty good evidence for your theory if so. Honestly, I do hope youre right but I recall some reasons to cast doubt on it brought up before. Does someone else have a more complete list of the sessions with master numbers to confirm or deny? Anyway, I dont think anyone's doubting there was a two sided Heroes at some point.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If there ever a stand-alone track called "Heroes And Villains, part 2" was planned, I don't think it was the second half of one whole song, but related to "Heroes And Villains" in the same way as "Shut Down, part 2" is related to "Shut Down". The A-side wouldn't have been "Heroes And Villains, part 1" but plain "Heroes And Villains" proper, the whole of it as it was supposed to be, and the B-side "Heroes And Villains, part 2" joyful fooling around with the intention to avoid using a track from Pet Sounds nor from SMiLE as a B-side. Brian is quoted with not wanting to use an album track, maybe just recording himself with a piano for the B-side, but not having decided yet.

I agree. I dont believe in the idea of a sampler of the album using reworked pieces that would actually appear there (presumably) like Barnshine fade and things like that, but I think Side 2 would probably be some of the leftovers that didnt make the cut for Side 1. The different chants, (tagged as Parts 3 and 4 I believe) Gee, and maybe All Day with "a lot of talking in the quiet parts" so it would give an idea of what to expect for SMiLE, without giving away pieces which would actually appear on the album. The BR chorus and verses would solely be on Side A, I think. Side A had to be commercial and would be what people actually heard on the radio so it had to sound like a typical song.

[shangaijoeBB]

I agree with the idea of side A being the single and self-contained.
As for pt 2, but the more I listen to the part 2 vocals variations, the more I hear this so-called ''sampler'' of the album.
Just listen to the music underneath the different sections:

Gee/HV variation 1- Im' In Great Shape 
HV var 2 - Cabin Essence (Who Ran The Iron Horse)
HV var 3 - Vega-Tables (Fade)
HV var 4 - Wind Chimes
Fade - The Old Master Painter

[Cam Mott]

A verse remake, intro and BR overdubs seem to be something youd expect in Side 1, not 2. Id personally love for your theory to be true, itd make things so much simpler, but I really dont think its that clear cut unfortunately

None of us knows how it worked (except those who have, or have heard, the actual thing) but still it seems to me the facts are: witnesses said there was a version of the H&V single with 2 sides. Brian had concurrent masters for H&V from January to early March, one was #57020 which is the master for side 1 of the actual H&V single and a second master #57045 logged as H&V Part II and noted as "Side 2" on one of the master's tapes and all* #57045 sessions also sharing the same progressive session number of 14247, 14247-A, 14247-B, 14247-C, 14247-D*.

Regardless of our personal opinions, it still seems to me that pretty good evidence of what Brian recorded for the side 2 of the two-sided H&V single has been staring us in the face the whole time but maybe obscured or confused by the side 1 master #57020 having sections that were slated a "part 2" and "part 3" etc..

*all subject to correction by c-man's newer and better information. For instance, did the "verse remake" of March 3 for H&V Part II master #57045 also share the progressive session number of 14247-? with the rest of the #57045 sessions?

Were the two masters used for different sessions at the same time--serious question. Thats certainly pretty good evidence for your theory if so. Honestly, I do hope youre right but I recall some reasons to cast doubt on it brought up before. Does someone else have a more complete list of the sessions with master numbers to confirm or deny? Anyway, I dont think anyone's doubting there was a two sided Heroes at some point.

I may not be following you but I believe Brian settled on #57020 as the master number for the side 1 H&V on December 19 and it remained the master through the side 1 of the released single.  Brian started the H&V Part II/Side 2 master January 5 on through March 3. So yes he was recording for both separate masters in the same period.

All I remember and saw was personal opinions that this wouldn't be that or second guessing Brian, nothing that contradicted the evidence. Maybe I missed it, if you can find it.

[Cam Mott]

If there ever a stand-alone track called "Heroes And Villains, part 2" was planned, I don't think it was the second half of one whole song, but related to "Heroes And Villains" in the same way as "Shut Down, part 2" is related to "Shut Down". The A-side wouldn't have been "Heroes And Villains, part 1" but plain "Heroes And Villains" proper, the whole of it as it was supposed to be, and the B-side "Heroes And Villains, part 2" joyful fooling around with the intention to avoid using a track from Pet Sounds nor from SMiLE as a B-side. Brian is quoted with not wanting to use an album track, maybe just recording himself with a piano for the B-side, but not having decided yet.

I agree. I dont believe in the idea of a sampler of the album using reworked pieces that would actually appear there (presumably) like Barnshine fade and things like that, but I think Side 2 would probably be some of the leftovers that didnt make the cut for Side 1. The different chants, (tagged as Parts 3 and 4 I believe) Gee, and maybe All Day with "a lot of talking in the quiet parts" so it would give an idea of what to expect for SMiLE, without giving away pieces which would actually appear on the album. The BR chorus and verses would solely be on Side A, I think. Side A had to be commercial and would be what people actually heard on the radio so it had to sound like a typical song.

I don't know Brian's plan of course, so no one can say that Brian planned Side 2 as an album sampler but what he recorded for the master #57045 that had been tagged as for "side 2" is at least a defacto sampler.  Brian did express some doubt about what would be on the side 2 in February but then recording resumed for the 2nd master of Side 2 later in February into March, presumably he made up his mind and ear witnesses heard the result

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If there ever a stand-alone track called "Heroes And Villains, part 2" was planned, I don't think it was the second half of one whole song, but related to "Heroes And Villains" in the same way as "Shut Down, part 2" is related to "Shut Down". The A-side wouldn't have been "Heroes And Villains, part 1" but plain "Heroes And Villains" proper, the whole of it as it was supposed to be, and the B-side "Heroes And Villains, part 2" joyful fooling around with the intention to avoid using a track from Pet Sounds nor from SMiLE as a B-side. Brian is quoted with not wanting to use an album track, maybe just recording himself with a piano for the B-side, but not having decided yet.

I agree. I dont believe in the idea of a sampler of the album using reworked pieces that would actually appear there (presumably) like Barnshine fade and things like that, but I think Side 2 would probably be some of the leftovers that didnt make the cut for Side 1. The different chants, (tagged as Parts 3 and 4 I believe) Gee, and maybe All Day with "a lot of talking in the quiet parts" so it would give an idea of what to expect for SMiLE, without giving away pieces which would actually appear on the album. The BR chorus and verses would solely be on Side A, I think. Side A had to be commercial and would be what people actually heard on the radio so it had to sound like a typical song.

I don't know Brian's plan of course, so no one can say that Brian planned Side 2 as an album sampler but what he recorded for the master #57045 that had been tagged as for "side 2" is at least a defacto sampler.  Brian did express some doubt about what would be on the side 2 in February but then recording resume for the 2nd master of Side 2 later in February into March, presumably he made up his mind and ear witnesses heard the result

What I mean is, when Ive heard this sampler theory before, its been presented as if all the parts that were lifted out of other songs like the BR chorus, Barnshine Fade, etc were all done for the B side but would still be on the album, and these little snippets would be a sampler of what you would hear on SMiLE. Personally, I believe Side B would be something more like the various chants (a-Heroes/doot doot doot H&Vs!) a comedy/spoken word bit like All Day, which Brian said would have "a lot of talking in the quiet parts" and meaningful covers made new like Gee. So it would be all new material, but showing off the more off the wall ideas the album would contain. I think the aforementioned BR chorus and Barnshine fade were recyclings of other songs into the A side to make it more commercial sounding, and if H&V had been released with those sections, the songs they were lifted from like Worms and OMP would either be extensively reworked with new material to make up for it, or scrapped entirely and replaced by Dada or Tones or something.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

A verse remake, intro and BR overdubs seem to be something youd expect in Side 1, not 2. Id personally love for your theory to be true, itd make things so much simpler, but I really dont think its that clear cut unfortunately

None of us knows how it worked (except those who have, or have heard, the actual thing) but still it seems to me the facts are: witnesses said there was a version of the H&V single with 2 sides. Brian had concurrent masters for H&V from January to early March, one was #57020 which is the master for side 1 of the actual H&V single and a second master #57045 logged as H&V Part II and noted as "Side 2" on one of the master's tapes and all* #57045 sessions also sharing the same progressive session number of 14247, 14247-A, 14247-B, 14247-C, 14247-D*.

Regardless of our personal opinions, it still seems to me that pretty good evidence of what Brian recorded for the side 2 of the two-sided H&V single has been staring us in the face the whole time but maybe obscured or confused by the side 1 master #57020 having sections that were slated a "part 2" and "part 3" etc..

*all subject to correction by c-man's newer and better information. For instance, did the "verse remake" of March 3 for H&V Part II master #57045 also share the progressive session number of 14247-? with the rest of the #57045 sessions?

Were the two masters used for different sessions at the same time--serious question. Thats certainly pretty good evidence for your theory if so. Honestly, I do hope youre right but I recall some reasons to cast doubt on it brought up before. Does someone else have a more complete list of the sessions with master numbers to confirm or deny? Anyway, I dont think anyone's doubting there was a two sided Heroes at some point.

I may not be following you but I believe Brian settled on #57020 as the master number for the side 1 H&V on December 19 and it remained the master through the side 1 of the released single.  Brian started the H&V Part II/Side 2 master January 5 on through March 3. So yes he was recording for both separate masters in the same period.

All I remember and saw was personal opinions that this wouldn't be that or second guessing Brian, nothing that contradicted the evidence. Maybe I missed it, if you can find it.

Youre probably right. That picture made it seem as tho after a certain point the different master was used, but looking at every session may prove they were used simultaneously and that image was misleading. My apologies.

[Cam Mott]

If there ever a stand-alone track called "Heroes And Villains, part 2" was planned, I don't think it was the second half of one whole song, but related to "Heroes And Villains" in the same way as "Shut Down, part 2" is related to "Shut Down". The A-side wouldn't have been "Heroes And Villains, part 1" but plain "Heroes And Villains" proper, the whole of it as it was supposed to be, and the B-side "Heroes And Villains, part 2" joyful fooling around with the intention to avoid using a track from Pet Sounds nor from SMiLE as a B-side. Brian is quoted with not wanting to use an album track, maybe just recording himself with a piano for the B-side, but not having decided yet.

I agree. I dont believe in the idea of a sampler of the album using reworked pieces that would actually appear there (presumably) like Barnshine fade and things like that, but I think Side 2 would probably be some of the leftovers that didnt make the cut for Side 1. The different chants, (tagged as Parts 3 and 4 I believe) Gee, and maybe All Day with "a lot of talking in the quiet parts" so it would give an idea of what to expect for SMiLE, without giving away pieces which would actually appear on the album. The BR chorus and verses would solely be on Side A, I think. Side A had to be commercial and would be what people actually heard on the radio so it had to sound like a typical song.

I don't know Brian's plan of course, so no one can say that Brian planned Side 2 as an album sampler but what he recorded for the master #57045 that had been tagged as for "side 2" is at least a defacto sampler.  Brian did express some doubt about what would be on the side 2 in February but then recording resume for the 2nd master of Side 2 later in February into March, presumably he made up his mind and ear witnesses heard the result

What I mean is, when Ive heard this sampler theory before, its been presented as if all the parts that were lifted out of other songs like the BR chorus, Barnshine Fade, etc were all done for the B side but would still be on the album, and these little snippets would be a sampler of what you would hear on SMiLE. Personally, I believe Side B would be something more like the various chants (a-Heroes/doot doot doot H&Vs!) a comedy/spoken word bit like All Day, which Brian said would have "a lot of talking in the quiet parts" and meaningful covers made new like Gee. So it would be all new material, but showing off the more off the wall ideas the album would contain. I think the aforementioned BR chorus and Barnshine fade were recyclings of other songs into the A side to make it more commercial sounding, and if H&V had been released with those sections, the songs they were lifted from like Worms and OMP would either be extensively reworked with new material to make up for it, or scrapped entirely and replaced by Dada or Tones or something.

I'm not saying what was recorded for #57045 is all that might have been used, I'm not even saying it all was used, I'm just saying what is documented as being recorded for it is re-recorded samples of album tracks including H&V.  The way the verse remake just seems to shuffle on for what could be the length of an entire single side, I kind of wonder if the #57045 "verse remake"* was going to be a background or connector for whatever was used from the new re-recording for #57045 and anything else that may have been added like comedy bits, out-takes, Chicago cabbies, etc.

*was it actually labeled, noted, or slated as "verse remake" in documentation or tapebox?

[Micha]

If there ever a stand-alone track called "Heroes And Villains, part 2" was planned, I don't think it was the second half of one whole song, but related to "Heroes And Villains" in the same way as "Shut Down, part 2" is related to "Shut Down". The A-side wouldn't have been "Heroes And Villains, part 1" but plain "Heroes And Villains" proper, the whole of it as it was supposed to be, and the B-side "Heroes And Villains, part 2" joyful fooling around with the intention to avoid using a track from Pet Sounds nor from SMiLE as a B-side. Brian is quoted with not wanting to use an album track, maybe just recording himself with a piano for the B-side, but not having decided yet.

I agree. I dont believe in the idea of a sampler of the album using reworked pieces that would actually appear there (presumably) like Barnshine fade and things like that, but I think Side 2 would probably be some of the leftovers that didnt make the cut for Side 1.

No, not leftovers - stuff recorded intentionally for using it as the B-side. Maybe - probably - the chants.

I agree with the idea of side A being the single and self-contained.
As for pt 2, but the more I listen to the part 2 vocals variations, the more I hear this so-called ''sampler'' of the album.
Just listen to the music underneath the different sections:

Gee/HV variation 1- Im' In Great Shape 
HV var 2 - Cabin Essence (Who Ran The Iron Horse)
HV var 3 - Vega-Tables (Fade)
HV var 4 - Wind Chimes
Fade - The Old Master Painter

var 3: DYLW, rather. The V-T fade was made later and IMHO wasn't planned at that time

[thetojo]

also, lets keep it positive towards sharing evidence, sources, theories, etc? We're all just trying to gain and share insight here.. its not like you can listen to SMiLE the wrong way:)

 

On that note - I at one point I thought that maybe Brian just recorded under the title H&V, notwithstanding that he may have been working on other tracks, because he was being hounded for a single by Capitol. Don't know if that's likely or even possible, but it might provide one explanation for some of these sessions. I don't know enough about it to say.

And as I type this, it occurs to me that someone mentioned Whistle In - would those lyrics fit over the "All Day" track?

[The Old Master Painter]

also, lets keep it positive towards sharing evidence, sources, theories, etc? We're all just trying to gain and share insight here.. its not like you can listen to SMiLE the wrong way:)

 

On that note - I at one point I thought that maybe Brian just recorded under the title H&V, notwithstanding that he may have been working on other tracks, because he was being hounded for a single by Capitol. Don't know if that's likely or even possible, but it might provide one explanation for some of these sessions. I don't know enough about it to say.

And as I type this, it occurs to me that someone mentioned Whistle In - would those lyrics fit over the "All Day" track?

I quoted that. It was just wishful speculation... It could be possible, but it obviously works much better in DYLW because the lyrics and melody of Whistle In derive from that chant after the second Bicycle Rider chorus.

[Cam Mott]

Re. the two sided H&V single: It is true that any given single required two masters, one for each side, isn't it?

[Bicyclerider]

I agree with the idea of side A being the single and self-contained.
As for pt 2, but the more I listen to the part 2 vocals variations, the more I hear this so-called ''sampler'' of the album.
Just listen to the music underneath the different sections:

Gee/HV variation 1- Im' In Great Shape 
HV var 2 - Cabin Essence (Who Ran The Iron Horse)
HV var 3 - Vega-Tables (Fade)
HV var 4 - Wind Chimes
Fade - The Old Master Painter

All of those were recorded under the master number for Heroes Pt 1, not 2, so according to Cam's theory that would not be a possible side 2.

Another reason why his theory doesn't work.  But don't tell him that, he doesn't want to hear it.

[Cam Mott]

I agree with the idea of side A being the single and self-contained.
As for pt 2, but the more I listen to the part 2 vocals variations, the more I hear this so-called ''sampler'' of the album.
Just listen to the music underneath the different sections:

Gee/HV variation 1- Im' In Great Shape 
HV var 2 - Cabin Essence (Who Ran The Iron Horse)
HV var 3 - Vega-Tables (Fade)
HV var 4 - Wind Chimes
Fade - The Old Master Painter

All of those were recorded under the master number for Heroes Pt 1, not 2, so according to Cam's theory that would not be a possible side 2.

Another reason why his theory doesn't work.  But don't tell him that, he doesn't want to hear it.

Don't tell BR, but if they weren't recorded for the "H&V Part II"/"Side 2" master #57045, my "theory" is intact.

[Bicyclerider]

If shangijoe's theory is correct, it is incompatible with your theory, as these sections weren't recorded for "side 2" by master number, so wouldn't be on side 2.

And if the master numbers don't indicate what side Brian was planning to use the session on, your theory is invalid.

[soniclovenoize]

The theory I've always subscribed to--I think guitarfool posted it--was that Brain finished what he thought was "Heroes and Villains" as the Cantina version on 2/10/67.  He then went back into the studio to record new segments five days later: Prelude To fade, Piano Theme, the "HV Pt2 Variations" (Gee, Part 2 Revised, Sedish Frog, Part 3 and Part 4).  He then returned to the studio again 7 days later and cut a new Verse, a new Chorus (gutted from DYLW) a new Fade and even a new Intro, all as a new master number.

So the theory goes that all the things recorded in between Brian thinking Heroes and Villains was finished on 2/10 and thinking he should scrap it all and start from scratch on 2/27 was destined for the b-side of the single, Heroes and Villains Part 2 (using the same master number).  That would apparently be all the "HV Pt2 Variations", and possibly Prelude to Fade and Piano Ballad somehow worked in (or not). 

And as said before, there was a reel of those pieces collected together with Gee and Part 2 Revised edited together so that the diminished chord was extracted from the end of Gee and connected to a handclap from Part 2 Revised, and Swedish Frog totally gone.  Linette replicated that on the box (if it isn't literally Wilson's test edit) on d4t24 on TSS, from 2:07-4:02.  It's uncertain if all the diminished chords would have been extracted, but imo that 2-minute piece is the closest we have to what Brian may have intended H&V Part 2 as. 

[Bicyclerider]

But the" H&V Pt 2 variations" you refer to were not under the Pt. 2 master number, they are under the Pt. 1.  So either those were recorded as part of a reconfigured Pt. 1 and not for side 2 at all, or the master numbers don't indicate whether a piece was destined for Pt. 1 or Pt. 2.

[soniclovenoize]

But the" H&V Pt 2 variations" you refer to were not under the Pt. 2 master number, they are under the Pt. 1.  So either those were recorded as part of a reconfigured Pt. 1 and not for side 2 at all, or the master numbers don't indicate whether a piece was destined for Pt. 1 or Pt. 2.

To clarify, I believe the new master number was meant for when Brian scrapped everything and started the whole song from scratch, re-recording  the Verse/Chorus/Fade, NOT indicating a Side A/B.  So thus, yes, the H&V Variations--and by extension the theoretical Side B of the single--were recorded with the same master number. 

Much like how "Like A Rolling Stone" was split over two sides of the original 7" as Part 1 and Part 2, yet had the same master number. 

[Cam Mott]

If it was recorded for the #57045 master it was for the "H&V Part II"/"Side 2" master (as the session number 14247 they share in common shows).

If it was recorded for the #57020 master (as the session number 14236 they share in common shows) it was for what is Side 1. If it was recorded for #57020 as "part two" it is still for the #57020 Side 1 master.

Just as if it was recorded for the #57020 master as "part 3" or "part 4" it doesn't mean it was recorded for the third and fourth side of a three or four sided single, it is still for the #57020 master which is Side 1.

It is pretty simple imo.

[shangaijoeBB]

 

The theory I've always subscribed to--I think guitarfool posted it--was that Brain finished what he thought was "Heroes and Villains" as the Cantina version on 2/10/67.  He then went back into the studio to record new segments five days later: Prelude To fade, Piano Theme, the "HV Pt2 Variations" (Gee, Part 2 Revised, Sedish Frog, Part 3 and Part 4).  He then returned to the studio again 7 days later and cut a new Verse, a new Chorus (gutted from DYLW) a new Fade and even a new Intro, all as a new master number.

So the theory goes that all the things recorded in between Brian thinking Heroes and Villains was finished on 2/10 and thinking he should scrap it all and start from scratch on 2/27 was destined for the b-side of the single, Heroes and Villains Part 2 (using the same master number).  That would apparently be all the "HV Pt2 Variations", and possibly Prelude to Fade and Piano Ballad somehow worked in (or not). 

And as said before, there was a reel of those pieces collected together with Gee and Part 2 Revised edited together so that the diminished chord was extracted from the end of Gee and connected to a handclap from Part 2 Revised, and Swedish Frog totally gone.  Linette replicated that on the box (if it isn't literally Wilson's test edit) on d4t24 on TSS, from 2:07-4:02.  It's uncertain if all the diminished chords would have been extracted, but imo that 2-minute piece is the closest we have to what Brian may have intended H&V Part 2 as. 

How about this, just by looking at the dates without thinking of the master numbers: maybe Brian started working on both pt 1 & 2 on the same master then, as soniclovenoize points out, he then changes his mind and restart the song from scratch from February 27 (now using ''the bicycle rider theme'' as chorus of the song) and works on this version until it becomes the official 45 version...

-By February 10th, we have the cantina mix with the OMP fade (overdubs made on the 10th)
-By February 15th and 16th (approximately), Brian records a ''prelude to fade'' and the bicycle rider theme on piano
-Then, on February 20th, we have all the various chants variations featuring many references to the album's songs.
 
By working out with both the ''early version'' mix acetate (d4t24 on TSS) and the original ''cantina'' mix, here's what I came up with what could have been released as a 2-parter single:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCzTHJqaipg&feature=youtu.be

It's almost 7 minutes long, not 6, but reports of a 6 minute version from Michael Vosse told that it was ''never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minute."

[yonderhillside]

This thread inspired me to try a hand at a mix again and so I gave myself a slapshod tutorial in the Audacity editing software. A couple of hours and several beers later I've produced a half-way decent H&V mix. Though, now after hearing your mix Old Master Painter, I kinda wish I'd used the H&V demo (Pt. 1) as the base track instead of the officially released version, but oh well. Here's my mix, hot off the frying pan..

http://www71.zippyshare.com/v/DWphoLkL/file.html