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Author Topic: The initial structure of Heroes and Villains  (Read 54369 times)
Cam Mott
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2016, 06:08:14 AM »


Do you mean as a second side of the H&V single?  Do you mean "ideal" as in personal listening pleasure or most historical justified?
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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2016, 06:13:50 AM »


Do you mean as a second side of the H&V single?  Do you mean "ideal" as in personal listening pleasure or most historical justified?

Historically justified.
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2016, 06:17:44 AM »

Did SMiLE Session nail Pt. 2? I heard of a 6 minute Heroes (over two sides). Pt. 1 (Cantina edit) was in fact 3 minutes, so there was supposedly an edit of a Heroes and Villains Pt. 2 that should have roughly lasted around 3 minutes as well....
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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2016, 07:06:20 AM »

Well, that's something.... So was Heroes supposedly: Verse/Old Master Painter/Sunshine/False Barnyard Fade at that time? That's quite something.

On November 4th, Great Shape and Barnyard were indeed part of Heroes judging by the Humble Harv demo, therefore the Heroes of 1966 was:

Verse/Great Shape/Barnyard/Old Master Painter/Sunshine/False Barnyard Fade?


A member of this board once send me a mix where he had "False barnyard-FB" following tape explosion, but with Brian's lead vocal from "Barnyard" and regular FB back vocals!
Figure that??
It was quite astonishing to hear it fits very well I would say!
Great stuff this early H&V!
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2016, 11:58:15 AM »

Well, that's something.... So was Heroes supposedly: Verse/Old Master Painter/Sunshine/False Barnyard Fade at that time? That's quite something.

On November 4th, Great Shape and Barnyard were indeed part of Heroes judging by the Humble Harv demo, therefore the Heroes of 1966 was:

Verse/Great Shape/Barnyard/Old Master Painter/Sunshine/False Barnyard Fade?


A member of this board once send me a mix where he had "False barnyard-FB" following tape explosion, but with Brian's lead vocal from "Barnyard" and regular FB back vocals!
Figure that??
It was quite astonishing to hear it fits very well I would say!
Great stuff this early H&V!

Of course, this was fan mix, not Brian's mix Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2016, 02:38:21 PM »

My most recent mix of the 2 part single goes like this (maybe not historically accurate but it sounds good to me!)

HV pt 1: Cantina mix until tape explosion/Sunny Down Snuff/HV Chorus (bicyle rider) fade (3:08)

HV pt 2 (with HV variations from The Smile Sessions ''Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sessions''): Gee/HV variation 1/HV variation 2/HV variation 3/HV variation 4/Bridge to Indians+ Pickup to 3rd verse/Flutter horn/False barnyard remake w/ Carl vocal (3:51)
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2016, 03:13:45 PM »

Did SMiLE Session nail Pt. 2? I heard of a 6 minute Heroes (over two sides). Pt. 1 (Cantina edit) was in fact 3 minutes, so there was supposedly an edit of a Heroes and Villains Pt. 2 that should have roughly lasted around 3 minutes as well....


I personally didnt care for either the Part 1 or Part 2 on TSS. Id heard many bootlegs and fan edits do a lot better, and I think the song is better served by something like Verse/Cantina--WithSwedishFrogMixedIn/ChildrenWereRaised/ThreeScore/Lalala-StandAFour/IIGS(or some kind of mirror to Cantina, some other out of the box, semi-unrelated piece)/WesternMusicBridge/SlowVerse/Some kind of fade. There are many to choose from, and its easy to mix your own as well. My favorite is still the one I did in Aquarian by mixing two throwaway secions, I think bag of tricks and something else...maybe the early version of the intro or organ waltz together

Their part 2 is kinda what Id imagine the real part 2 to be--an assortment of outtakes sections and maybe some of those chants, all stitched together. I just think the order they went with and what specifically they used was off. It no longer feels like a song anymore and just drags on and on, section after section with no rhyme or reason. I think a dedicated fanmixer could do a lot better. I think for mine, I used the a-Heroes, a-Heroes chant cross-faded with the Veggies Fade, and then the doot doot doot-Heroes and Villains chant. I didnt use the Western bridge or slow verse in Part 1 of this mix (Aquarian) so I used them at this point, then the piano theme with Taxi Cabber overlaid, then the OMP Barnshine fade with He Gives Speeches vocals properly sped up over top of it. Im not really interested in H&V part 2 anymore since all my mixes since then have attempted to be accurate and used the original tracklist. So theres no room for H&V2 anymore for me, and frankly for myself this is one of the least interesting SMiLE questions. I mean, its totally cool and historically important to see how the song progressed. But to me, its kinda like debating what the elements would be. It was fun for awhile, but after seeing the same talking points rehashed a million times, and people ignoring the most glaring evidence to support their own idea logic be damned, I just think people are gonna do what they do. Id like to see someone try to do some cool things with a two sided heroes, but for me its just one of those things were Id prefer to just use the best 4 or perhaps 5 minutes of material and leave the rest where it probably wouldve ended up anyway--the cutting room floor.

I hate using the BR chorus in Heroes. That belongs in Worms, to me. I know some see it as a repeating musical motif, but I see it as desperate recycling to try to make an uncommercial song commercial when it was never going to happen and ended up killing the album. Same with using the Barnshine fade, I never use that when Im also using OMP in the mix. Its almost disrespectful to the original songs I feel, and it takes away precious time that could be used by all the amazing stuff we have to work with. Its not like there isnt 20 minutes or more of H&V material you can use instead, to greater and more creative effect.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2016, 04:02:21 PM »

Did SMiLE Session nail Pt. 2? I heard of a 6 minute Heroes (over two sides). Pt. 1 (Cantina edit) was in fact 3 minutes, so there was supposedly an edit of a Heroes and Villains Pt. 2 that should have roughly lasted around 3 minutes as well....


I personally didnt care for either the Part 1 or Part 2 on TSS. Id heard many bootlegs and fan edits do a lot better, and I think the song is better served by something like Verse/Cantina--WithSwedishFrogMixedIn/ChildrenWereRaised/ThreeScore/Lalala-StandAFour/IIGS(or some kind of mirror to Cantina, some other out of the box, semi-unrelated piece)/WesternMusicBridge/SlowVerse/Some kind of fade. There are many to choose from, and its easy to mix your own as well. My favorite is still the one I did in Aquarian by mixing two throwaway secions, I think bag of tricks and something else...maybe the early version of the intro or organ waltz together

Their part 2 is kinda what Id imagine the real part 2 to be--an assortment of outtakes sections and maybe some of those chants, all stitched together. I just think the order they went with and what specifically they used was off. It no longer feels like a song anymore and just drags on and on, section after section with no rhyme or reason. I think a dedicated fanmixer could do a lot better. I think for mine, I used the a-Heroes, a-Heroes chant cross-faded with the Veggies Fade, and then the doot doot doot-Heroes and Villains chant. I didnt use the Western bridge or slow verse in Part 1 of this mix (Aquarian) so I used them at this point, then the piano theme with Taxi Cabber overlaid, then the OMP Barnshine fade with He Gives Speeches vocals properly sped up over top of it. Im not really interested in H&V part 2 anymore since all my mixes since then have attempted to be accurate and used the original tracklist. So theres no room for H&V2 anymore for me, and frankly for myself this is one of the least interesting SMiLE questions. I mean, its totally cool and historically important to see how the song progressed. But to me, its kinda like debating what the elements would be. It was fun for awhile, but after seeing the same talking points rehashed a million times, and people ignoring the most glaring evidence to support their own idea logic be damned, I just think people are gonna do what they do. Id like to see someone try to do some cool things with a two sided heroes, but for me its just one of those things were Id prefer to just use the best 4 or perhaps 5 minutes of material and leave the rest where it probably wouldve ended up anyway--the cutting room floor.

I hate using the BR chorus in Heroes. That belongs in Worms, to me. I know some see it as a repeating musical motif, but I see it as desperate recycling to try to make an uncommercial song commercial when it was never going to happen and ended up killing the album. Same with using the Barnshine fade, I never use that when Im also using OMP in the mix. Its almost disrespectful to the original songs I feel, and it takes away precious time that could be used by all the amazing stuff we have to work with. Its not like there isnt 20 minutes or more of H&V material you can use instead, to greater and more creative effect.

FYI, HV pt1 was a vintage Brian Wilson mix and from what i understand "pt2" was taken from a reel with those sections in that order (but not spliced together...can someone confirm?)
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thetojo
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2016, 04:42:12 PM »


FYI, HV pt1 was a vintage Brian Wilson mix and from what i understand "pt2" was taken from a reel with those sections in that order (but not spliced together...can someone confirm?)


Pretty sure there's a reference for that in the Priore book "Look Listen Vibrate SMiLE". The theory goes that a good portion of the Heroes and Villains (Sections) track from the 1990 twofer was what you describe. Linnet mixed based on what Brian was heard saying at the sessions and the order of the pieces on a "comp" reel - starting from the "Gee" section and finishing immediately before the "false" barnyard tag. I don't think I've ever come across a "firm" confirmation that this is right, but that's not saying it isn't or it hasn't been confirmed.

BTW - I recall from when I got that CD in 1990 that the CD player I had at the time displayed SUB-INDEX information, which in essence let you know where Linnet had spliced pieces together, or, in other words, letting you know when each "section" started. I'd love to know if there is any modern CD player or software that can extract this subindex information??? Anyone know?
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Cam Mott
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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2016, 05:52:51 PM »


Do you mean as a second side of the H&V single?  Do you mean "ideal" as in personal listening pleasure or most historical justified?


Historically justified.

In my opinion the historically justified two sided H&V single of January-March 1967 was two concurrent H&V masters. A master was started with it's own master number 57045 which was both identified as for "H&V Part 2" and as "H&V Side 2".   Tracks noted or slated as "Part 2" for master number 57020 where second parts of side 1 of the H&V single (as master 57020 is the master of side 1 of the H&V single).  Plans are subject to change etc., etc. but that in my opinion the historically justified H&V Part 2 of the Side 2 of the two sided H&V single is what was recorded for master 57045.
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2016, 06:18:36 PM »

Something that kills me about all these sections is people are OK, and even often include in their own fan mixes of H&V, the individual sections for "Barnyard", IIGS, or both, and yet complain that those sections don't "make any sense" with the sections Brian eventually put them (in the individual SONGS for "Barnyard" and IIGS).  To me the Barnyard section makes worlds more sense paired with TOMP, etc, than it does in the middle of the various H&V stuff. And while IIGS doesn't make a whole lot of sense paired with IWBA and "Workshop", it sure doesn't make any LESS sense, and yet there are those who still fight against all proof that the 2004 arrangements (or those particular sections) date back to the original Smile eras.
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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2016, 06:42:49 PM »

Did SMiLE Session nail Pt. 2? I heard of a 6 minute Heroes (over two sides). Pt. 1 (Cantina edit) was in fact 3 minutes, so there was supposedly an edit of a Heroes and Villains Pt. 2 that should have roughly lasted around 3 minutes as well....


I personally didnt care for either the Part 1 or Part 2 on TSS. Id heard many bootlegs and fan edits do a lot better, and I think the song is better served by something like Verse/Cantina--WithSwedishFrogMixedIn/ChildrenWereRaised/ThreeScore/Lalala-StandAFour/IIGS(or some kind of mirror to Cantina, some other out of the box, semi-unrelated piece)/WesternMusicBridge/SlowVerse/Some kind of fade. There are many to choose from, and its easy to mix your own as well. My favorite is still the one I did in Aquarian by mixing two throwaway secions, I think bag of tricks and something else...maybe the early version of the intro or organ waltz together

Their part 2 is kinda what Id imagine the real part 2 to be--an assortment of outtakes sections and maybe some of those chants, all stitched together. I just think the order they went with and what specifically they used was off. It no longer feels like a song anymore and just drags on and on, section after section with no rhyme or reason. I think a dedicated fanmixer could do a lot better. I think for mine, I used the a-Heroes, a-Heroes chant cross-faded with the Veggies Fade, and then the doot doot doot-Heroes and Villains chant. I didnt use the Western bridge or slow verse in Part 1 of this mix (Aquarian) so I used them at this point, then the piano theme with Taxi Cabber overlaid, then the OMP Barnshine fade with He Gives Speeches vocals properly sped up over top of it. Im not really interested in H&V part 2 anymore since all my mixes since then have attempted to be accurate and used the original tracklist. So theres no room for H&V2 anymore for me, and frankly for myself this is one of the least interesting SMiLE questions. I mean, its totally cool and historically important to see how the song progressed. But to me, its kinda like debating what the elements would be. It was fun for awhile, but after seeing the same talking points rehashed a million times, and people ignoring the most glaring evidence to support their own idea logic be damned, I just think people are gonna do what they do. Id like to see someone try to do some cool things with a two sided heroes, but for me its just one of those things were Id prefer to just use the best 4 or perhaps 5 minutes of material and leave the rest where it probably wouldve ended up anyway--the cutting room floor.

I hate using the BR chorus in Heroes. That belongs in Worms, to me. I know some see it as a repeating musical motif, but I see it as desperate recycling to try to make an uncommercial song commercial when it was never going to happen and ended up killing the album. Same with using the Barnshine fade, I never use that when Im also using OMP in the mix. Its almost disrespectful to the original songs I feel, and it takes away precious time that could be used by all the amazing stuff we have to work with. Its not like there isnt 20 minutes or more of H&V material you can use instead, to greater and more creative effect.

FYI, HV pt1 was a vintage Brian Wilson mix and from what i understand "pt2" was taken from a reel with those sections in that order (but not spliced together...can someone confirm?)

Huh. Very interesting stuff. I honestly dont recall reading that (its been years since I read the TSS book.) Well, all I can say is, I understand why Brian didnt release it that way. I guess it wouldve been slightly better than the cut of H&V we got, and that Part2 is alright as a B-Side sampler of the kind of wacky off the wall ideas to expect in SMiLE. But its not a worthy sequel to GV, nor even a worthy contender to Strawberry Fields (and this is coming from someone who thinks the Beatles are overrated and Sgt Pepper isnt even that good). Brian really shouldve chosen a better song to be the single. Thats really what it all boils down to. I cant understand why he didnt choose a stripped down version of Surf's Up--or why someone didnt tell him to do that.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2016, 06:56:46 PM »

Did SMiLE Session nail Pt. 2? I heard of a 6 minute Heroes (over two sides). Pt. 1 (Cantina edit) was in fact 3 minutes, so there was supposedly an edit of a Heroes and Villains Pt. 2 that should have roughly lasted around 3 minutes as well....


I personally didnt care for either the Part 1 or Part 2 on TSS. Id heard many bootlegs and fan edits do a lot better, and I think the song is better served by something like Verse/Cantina--WithSwedishFrogMixedIn/ChildrenWereRaised/ThreeScore/Lalala-StandAFour/IIGS(or some kind of mirror to Cantina, some other out of the box, semi-unrelated piece)/WesternMusicBridge/SlowVerse/Some kind of fade. There are many to choose from, and its easy to mix your own as well. My favorite is still the one I did in Aquarian by mixing two throwaway secions, I think bag of tricks and something else...maybe the early version of the intro or organ waltz together

Their part 2 is kinda what Id imagine the real part 2 to be--an assortment of outtakes sections and maybe some of those chants, all stitched together. I just think the order they went with and what specifically they used was off. It no longer feels like a song anymore and just drags on and on, section after section with no rhyme or reason. I think a dedicated fanmixer could do a lot better. I think for mine, I used the a-Heroes, a-Heroes chant cross-faded with the Veggies Fade, and then the doot doot doot-Heroes and Villains chant. I didnt use the Western bridge or slow verse in Part 1 of this mix (Aquarian) so I used them at this point, then the piano theme with Taxi Cabber overlaid, then the OMP Barnshine fade with He Gives Speeches vocals properly sped up over top of it. Im not really interested in H&V part 2 anymore since all my mixes since then have attempted to be accurate and used the original tracklist. So theres no room for H&V2 anymore for me, and frankly for myself this is one of the least interesting SMiLE questions. I mean, its totally cool and historically important to see how the song progressed. But to me, its kinda like debating what the elements would be. It was fun for awhile, but after seeing the same talking points rehashed a million times, and people ignoring the most glaring evidence to support their own idea logic be damned, I just think people are gonna do what they do. Id like to see someone try to do some cool things with a two sided heroes, but for me its just one of those things were Id prefer to just use the best 4 or perhaps 5 minutes of material and leave the rest where it probably wouldve ended up anyway--the cutting room floor.

I hate using the BR chorus in Heroes. That belongs in Worms, to me. I know some see it as a repeating musical motif, but I see it as desperate recycling to try to make an uncommercial song commercial when it was never going to happen and ended up killing the album. Same with using the Barnshine fade, I never use that when Im also using OMP in the mix. Its almost disrespectful to the original songs I feel, and it takes away precious time that could be used by all the amazing stuff we have to work with. Its not like there isnt 20 minutes or more of H&V material you can use instead, to greater and more creative effect.

FYI, HV pt1 was a vintage Brian Wilson mix and from what i understand "pt2" was taken from a reel with those sections in that order (but not spliced together...can someone confirm?)

Huh. Very interesting stuff. I honestly dont recall reading that (its been years since I read the TSS book.) Well, all I can say is, I understand why Brian didnt release it that way. I guess it wouldve been slightly better than the cut of H&V we got, and that Part2 is alright as a B-Side sampler of the kind of wacky off the wall ideas to expect in SMiLE. But its not a worthy sequel to GV, nor even a worthy contender to Strawberry Fields (and this is coming from someone who thinks the Beatles are overrated and Sgt Pepper isnt even that good). Brian really shouldve chosen a better song to be the single. Thats really what it all boils down to. I cant understand why he didnt choose a stripped down version of Surf's Up--or why someone didnt tell him to do that.

Is there any evidence out there that Surf's Up was going to be a single?  Maybe as a second single for the album (assuming SMiLE was released in January).  It makes sense to me that you'd have a single released sometime in late January/early February, then have a follow up around the time of the Inside Pop special.  I've never understood why they would choose Surf's Up to be aired on TV, but not released as a single, especially seeing how the album would have been out for a few months at that point.  I've never done any research on it, so maybe I'm way off base on something.
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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2016, 07:11:44 PM »


Do you mean as a second side of the H&V single?  Do you mean "ideal" as in personal listening pleasure or most historical justified?


Historically justified.

In my opinion the historically justified two sided H&V single of January-March 1967 was two concurrent H&V masters. A master was started with it's own master number 57045 which was both identified as for "H&V Part 2" and as "H&V Side 2".   Tracks noted or slated as "Part 2" for master number 57020 where second parts of side 1 of the H&V single (as master 57020 is the master of side 1 of the H&V single).  Plans are subject to change etc., etc. but that in my opinion the historically justified H&V Part 2 of the Side 2 of the two sided H&V single is what was recorded for master 57045.

Wasnt that theory completely disproven in the other SMiLE thread?

Id like to see someone make a H&V mix completely by the CD track labels. Putting all the Part 1 and Part 2 and making sense of it all (does Part 2 go after Part 1 or Part One Tag?) Could sound awful but maybe not. I always assumed using the 12 song track list would sound awful, and used Dada, H&V2 and Look in place of things like IIGS, OMP and GV. It wasnt until I decided it'd be fun to "handicap" myself like that, that I learned those 12 tracks make a pretty sweet album. This could be a case similar to that.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2016, 07:13:56 PM »

Quote
Is there any evidence out there that Surf's Up was going to be a single?  Maybe as a second single for the album (assuming SMiLE was released in January).  It makes sense to me that you'd have a single released sometime in late January/early February, then have a follow up around the time of the Inside Pop special.  I've never understood why they would choose Surf's Up to be aired on TV, but not released as a single, especially seeing how the album would have been out for a few months at that point.  I've never done any research on it, so maybe I'm way off base on something.

I'm sure I was reading something recently - Crawdaddy! perhaps, but I don't think so - in which one of the 'Posse' recalled exhorting Brian to release 'Surf's Up' as the single, 'just as he recorded it that night' (the solo 'demo'). But no, I've never heard or read any evidence to support the idea SU was ever planned by Brian (or the band, or the label) to be a single. A couple of years later, at least, Brian specifically refers to the length of the song as precluding it from being selected as an A-side.

Indeed, the fact that there appears to have only been a single vocal recording session for the song, on Dec 15 (which is now lost and is almost certainly the session referred to by Siegel as having 'gone very badly') suggests it was not first on anyone's priorities list to complete; and possibly that there was little support for the number within the band to begin with. There was another, now lost, tracking session for 'PART ONE' at the end of January, so perhaps then?

Either way, there's no active evidence for any intention to give Surf's Up a 45 release, unless one makes a leap of logic or two and feels a standalone release is suggested by its inclusion in Inside Pop.

« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 07:18:25 PM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2016, 07:31:58 PM »


Wasnt that theory completely disproven in the other SMiLE thread?


Not that I know of.
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« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2016, 07:41:23 PM »


Wasnt that theory completely disproven in the other SMiLE thread?


Not that I know of.

I think so. The "your smile mix" thread, a few pages back.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2016, 07:43:55 PM »

Quote
Is there any evidence out there that Surf's Up was going to be a single?  Maybe as a second single for the album (assuming SMiLE was released in January).  It makes sense to me that you'd have a single released sometime in late January/early February, then have a follow up around the time of the Inside Pop special.  I've never understood why they would choose Surf's Up to be aired on TV, but not released as a single, especially seeing how the album would have been out for a few months at that point.  I've never done any research on it, so maybe I'm way off base on something.

I'm sure I was reading something recently - Crawdaddy! perhaps, but I don't think so - in which one of the 'Posse' recalled exhorting Brian to release 'Surf's Up' as the single, 'just as he recorded it that night' (the solo 'demo'). But no, I've never heard or read any evidence to support the idea SU was ever planned by Brian (or the band, or the label) to be a single. A couple of years later, at least, Brian specifically refers to the length of the song as precluding it from being selected as an A-side.

Indeed, the fact that there appears to have only been a single vocal recording session for the song, on Dec 15 (which is now lost and is almost certainly the session referred to by Siegel as having 'gone very badly') suggests it was not first on anyone's priorities list to complete; and possibly that there was little support for the number within the band to begin with. There was another, now lost, tracking session for 'PART ONE' at the end of January, so perhaps then?

Either way, there's no active evidence for any intention to give Surf's Up a 45 release, unless one makes a leap of logic or two and feels a standalone release is suggested by its inclusion in Inside Pop.


I didn't think there was, but it's a theory that makes sense to me.  Taking a non single and putting it on a TV show, a TV special at that just seems very odd.  But yeah, a lot of stuff posted about SMiLE requires at least a little leap in logic.  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 07:45:37 PM by The Cincinnati Kid » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2016, 07:47:56 PM »

Something that kills me about all these sections is people are OK, and even often include in their own fan mixes of H&V, the individual sections for "Barnyard", IIGS, or both, and yet complain that those sections don't "make any sense" with the sections Brian eventually put them (in the individual SONGS for "Barnyard" and IIGS).  To me the Barnyard section makes worlds more sense paired with TOMP, etc, than it does in the middle of the various H&V stuff. And while IIGS doesn't make a whole lot of sense paired with IWBA and "Workshop", it sure doesn't make any LESS sense, and yet there are those who still fight against all proof that the 2004 arrangements (or those particular sections) date back to the original Smile eras.

I agree IIGS and Barnyard dont really fit. The narrative of IIGS has nothing to do with anything. Its a totally disconnected sequence amidst the other lyrics. So is Barnyard, especially since the narrator is in a city, not the open country. The lyrics in both sections kinda work together tho. I really feel a verse (GS)/chorus (Do A Lot)/verse (GS w/new lyrics)/chorus (Do A Lot)/Bridge (All Day?)/Fade (Barnyard) structure would be ideal for the IIGS track. It just sucks the pieces we have now dont really sound good together, but Brian couldve made it happen. And then it opens up the question of Veggies would have had a chorus or not--maybe intervals of the fight with Hal? Brian has them go thru three noticeably different stages of the fight, so that legit could be possible...

Im getting off topic. Anyway, I agree with you in theory, its just your insistence on Barnyard as part of OMP (which, again, makes no sense at all and ruins both tunes) that I have an issue with
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2016, 07:49:38 PM »

Quote
Is there any evidence out there that Surf's Up was going to be a single?  Maybe as a second single for the album (assuming SMiLE was released in January).  It makes sense to me that you'd have a single released sometime in late January/early February, then have a follow up around the time of the Inside Pop special.  I've never understood why they would choose Surf's Up to be aired on TV, but not released as a single, especially seeing how the album would have been out for a few months at that point.  I've never done any research on it, so maybe I'm way off base on something.

I'm sure I was reading something recently - Crawdaddy! perhaps, but I don't think so - in which one of the 'Posse' recalled exhorting Brian to release 'Surf's Up' as the single, 'just as he recorded it that night' (the solo 'demo'). But no, I've never heard or read any evidence to support the idea SU was ever planned by Brian (or the band, or the label) to be a single. A couple of years later, at least, Brian specifically refers to the length of the song as precluding it from being selected as an A-side.

Indeed, the fact that there appears to have only been a single vocal recording session for the song, on Dec 15 (which is now lost and is almost certainly the session referred to by Siegel as having 'gone very badly') suggests it was not first on anyone's priorities list to complete; and possibly that there was little support for the number within the band to begin with. There was another, now lost, tracking session for 'PART ONE' at the end of January, so perhaps then?

Either way, there's no active evidence for any intention to give Surf's Up a 45 release, unless one makes a leap of logic or two and feels a standalone release is suggested by its inclusion in Inside Pop.


I didn't think there was, but it's a theory that makes sense to me.  Taking a non single and putting it on a TV show, a TV special at that just seems very odd.  But yeah, a lot of stuff posted about SMiLE requires at least a little leap in logic.  

Indeed. And yeah, as far as I know it wasnt an official idea. But c'mon...it just makes so much sense, wouldve been so easy to do and saved all those wasted months which couldve saved the album...
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2016, 07:53:14 PM »


Wasnt that theory completely disproven in the other SMiLE thread?


Not that I know of.

I think so. The "your smile mix" thread, a few pages back.

Not that I see. Where and by whom?
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« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2016, 08:21:13 PM »

Okay, so i just relistened to mark linett and alan boyd's iconfetch interviews (pre and post smile sessions) and heres what they said:

- question asked by buddahat!! "was the sequence for HV pt 2 based on historical evidence meaning brians plans in 66/67?"

Alan:  "partially.. what we did was we took almost all sections that had been recorded in the first part of 1967. For instance, there was a section called prelude to fade..and a couple days later he went and recorded a new fade and so we went 'well, lets put the prelude to fade before the fade.' At the end of that, there was another section called tag to pt1 that just seemed to fit in there like a glove most beautifully.  And the other sections, you know, all the vocal parts were arranged in that order although not edited together on the original session master tape..and we did find pieces.. and you will hear some of this towards the end of CD 4 of edit attemps brian had made with some of those recordings in early 1967, so it's not as if brian had written a very specific blueprint for it, but based on the way he was titling these tracks and the order in which they were laid down.. the order in which they were recorded, it seemed the most intuitive method to arrange HV pt 2. I have to say Im not positive, you know, we're not positive that there actually was intended to be a HV side 2. We've heard reports from both sides on that."

Mark: "Well, Brian denies it. But 40 years on, thats his take on it.. that there was no two sided version of HV"

also, lets keep it positive towards sharing evidence, sources, theories, etc? We're all just trying to gain and share insight here.. its not like you can listen to SMiLE the wrong way:)
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« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2016, 08:25:28 PM »


Wasnt that theory completely disproven in the other SMiLE thread?


Not that I know of.

I think so. The "your smile mix" thread, a few pages back.

Not that I see. Where and by whom?

Page 9, and into 10

Here are the Heroes & Villains Sessions with master numbers of #57020 & #57045 (and their recording dates) according to the TSS book (I entered them into my iTunes tags, very helpful, but also DISCLAIMER: I may always have entered in something incorrectly). [not pictured, My Only Sunshine Part 1 & 2 has master numbers of both #56866 & #57020, presumably because Part 2 ends up as the fade in Heroes & Villains for a spell]



Not included in this image are the Heroes & Villains sessions with master numbers #56727 (Verse, Barnyard, and the June Smiley Smile version recordings), #56738 (Great Shape), and sessions with no known master number (such as "Intro [Early Version" which is slated as Heroes & Villains Part 3)
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2016, 08:56:02 PM »

Mujan, youre totally losing me on the whole skits are supposed to be everywhere, brian wilsons edit choices arent that good, workshop is air, iigs has nothing to do with anything/is an outake, omp/barnyard are not related, etc..

i have a hard time knowing whether or not youre trolling.. i mean all the long posts trying discrediting sources and actual insightful information and theories with actual historical support... to posts like suggesting  a multi skit VT??

yes, there is a lot to SMiLE that is unknown, but where are you coming up with this stuff?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 08:58:44 PM by zosobird » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2016, 09:02:19 PM »


Wasnt that theory completely disproven in the other SMiLE thread?


Not that I know of.

I think so. The "your smile mix" thread, a few pages back.

Not that I see. Where and by whom?

Page 9, and into 10

Here are the Heroes & Villains Sessions with master numbers of #57020 & #57045 (and their recording dates) according to the TSS book (I entered them into my iTunes tags, very helpful, but also DISCLAIMER: I may always have entered in something incorrectly). [not pictured, My Only Sunshine Part 1 & 2 has master numbers of both #56866 & #57020, presumably because Part 2 ends up as the fade in Heroes & Villains for a spell]



Not included in this image are the Heroes & Villains sessions with master numbers #56727 (Verse, Barnyard, and the June Smiley Smile version recordings), #56738 (Great Shape), and sessions with no known master number (such as "Intro [Early Version" which is slated as Heroes & Villains Part 3)

Nope, nothing contradicted the evidence for a #57045 H&V Part 2/Side 2 master. 
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