The initial structure of Heroes and Villains

[Cam Mott]

I thought VDP wrote each syllable to match each note of Brian's composition for H&V which would include meter and melody wouldn't it?  Something is off with holding the 1966 H&V accountable to a 2004 BWPS lyric sheet me thinks.

[soniclovenoize]

Are... are you being facetious?

[Cam Mott]

Are... are you being facetious?

No, I'm highly skeptical that VDP's intention in 1966 would not be conveyed by the meter and melody in the performance. Since the performance is long established I'm skeptical of the punctuation variant from the performance.  I get what you are saying but I have doubts.

This is not the quote I was looking for I don't think but...

"He did the melodies. The melody to "Heroes and Villains" -- every note has a sound syllable to it. It sounded like a Marty Robbins tune, like a ballad, so I thought it would be a good idea to have it: "I've been in this town so long that back in the city I've been taken for gone and unknown for a long time / Fell in love years ago with an innocent girl from the Spanish and Indian home of the heroes and villains." All those words. I was working like a son of a bitch. And then he would say, "That's good." And then he would say, "Let's call it `Heroes and Villains,' " and I would say, "That's grand. Let's do."  VDP

[soniclovenoize]

Are... are you being facetious?

No, I'm highly skeptical that VDP's intention in 1966 would not be conveyed by the meter and melody in the performance. Since the performance is long established I'm skeptical of the punctuation variant from the performance.  I get what you are saying but I have doubts.

Well as I said, I honestly thought it was a typo and discounted it myself, but this conversation has given me pause. 

I guess, is there a precedent for VDP doing it elsewhere?
The music hall, a costly bow... 
Cabin essence, timely hello

Those are implied commas but not sung (for the former, in order to be "holocaustly")   I'll have to go back and listen to Song Cycle and other non-SMiLE stuff.  I can't remember what it's printed as and I have no clue where either of my lyric books are, I can't check.  :/

[Summertime Blooz]

I thought VDP wrote each syllable to match each note of Brian's composition for H&V which would include meter and melody wouldn't it?  Something is off with holding the 1966 H&V accountable to a 2004 BWPS lyric sheet me thinks.

One bit of H&V revisionism from BWPS that can actually be heard is the line from 66-67 "In the cantina, margaritas keep the spirit high." For BWPS it was changed to "in the cantina, Margarita keeps the spirits high.", in print and in performance. Commas- tougher to prove.

[Micha]

I bothered to look it up, in both BWPS and TSS it says "cotillion" - not capitalized. You got a source who got it wrong methinks.

Thanks for the input. Not sure how far back that spelling (with the capital C) dates back or the exact origin. I have Word files going back to 2000 with that spelling and also with an alternate spelling of Catillion. I've been checking the internet with not much luck.

Browsed in LLVS a bit yesterday, found that the "Catillian" capitalized has its origin there. So much for Priore's interpretations of things SMiLE!

One bit of H&V revisionism from BWPS that can actually be heard is the line from 66-67 "In the cantina, margaritas keep the spirit high." For BWPS it was changed to "in the cantina, Margarita keeps the spirits high.", in print and in performance. Commas- tougher to prove.

When I landed in London in 2004 for the SMiLE concert there was someone waiting at the gate with a sign in his hands saying "Margarita" - obviously Margarita was on my plane!

[Summertime Blooz]

I bothered to look it up, in both BWPS and TSS it says "cotillion" - not capitalized. You got a source who got it wrong methinks.

Thanks for the input. Not sure how far back that spelling (with the capital C) dates back or the exact origin. I have Word files going back to 2000 with that spelling and also with an alternate spelling of Catillion. I've been checking the internet with not much luck.

Browsed in LLVS a bit yesterday, found that the "Catillian" capitalized has its origin there. So much for Priore's interpretations of things SMiLE!

One bit of H&V revisionism from BWPS that can actually be heard is the line from 66-67 "In the cantina, margaritas keep the spirit high." For BWPS it was changed to "in the cantina, Margarita keeps the spirits high.", in print and in performance. Commas- tougher to prove.

When I landed in London in 2004 for the SMiLE concert there was someone waiting at the gate with a sign in his hands saying "Margarita" - obviously Margarita was on my plane!

So, I guess that begs the question of what Priore used as his source for the printed lyrics, or did he just guess based on what it sounded like? Are there bootlegs of the period that have lyric sheets?

[Cam Mott]

Anybody have the 1967 Sea of Tunes Pub. H&V sheet music?

[Micha]

did he just guess based on what it sounded like?

That's what I think is most likely.

[The_Holy_Bee]

As a bit of a break from the - thoroughly fascinating, I should add - more academic side of the discussion on various 'Smile' threads at the moment, I've spent a bit of time the last two days putting together some 'theoretical mixes' for different stages of H&V.

Obviously these aren't 'historically accurate' - we only have one Smile-era mix surviving (Feb 10's 'Cantina', as originally released on the 1990 twofer), plus the suggestion in Teen Set that there was an edit of the H&V backing track, including 'Barnyard', which existed at some stage in '66. In fact, there is no evidence whatsoever that Brian actually did dub down December or January versions of the track. (There is at least an incomplete 'Verse Edit' test and the 'Outtake Sections' assembly from Jan-Feb, both included on TSS.) The point of these was just to use (almost) all the pieces recorded for H&V at different stages, and attempt to put them into a vaguely satisfying order to demonstrate what BW/VDP may have been thinking as the track developed. I probably haven't succeeded in this, but it was interesting to try.

A couple of other notes: 'Children Were Raised' appears in all of these edits, despite - as Soniclovenoise pointed out earlier in the thread - the earliest version we have ('Often Wise') not being recorded until 27 Jan '67. This is largely, and possibly spuriously, based on the Durrie Parks acetate which apparently features IIGS > Children Were Raised harpischord backing > 'Three Score' backing track to run out. If indeed 'IIGS' was removed from the number toward the end of '66 - and not later re-inserted - then this would suggest a lost, even earlier tracking of this section. Total supposition, of course.

There's a lot of guess work involved. There are some clumsy edits, due to both the material available and my sometimes shocking technical incompetence. (A few bits, on the other hand, I think work rather well.) The actual recordings/transitions are not always period-specific (ie. later vocal mixes appear on earlier-dated edits, when those versions best assist the basically structural exercise this was.) And the 'December Version' is a total stab in the dark, an attempt to see how 'OMP/YAMS' may have fitted into H&V, and possibly contributed to the decision to move 'I'm in Great Shape' and 'Barnyard' (and, likely, 'Workshop') into their own track. It also features, unfortunately, the messiest edit in all three. You'll hear it when it occurs.

Anyway, I hope there are a few points of interest to be found within these edits, if taken in the spirit in which they were intended. If anyone wants to give 'em a listen, the link is below.
 
1. 'October Edit' - Verses, IIGS, Barnyard - structure suggested by DP acetate and 'Humble Harv' demo. All musical tracks (except 'Children Were Raised, as for all mixes, see above) rec. Oct '66.
2. 'Late November/December Edit' - Verses (vocals tracked from Dec '66 onwards), 'Chimes/Intro to Part 3' (rec 12/66), 'The Old Master Painter'/YAMS/'Part Two' Fade (rec 14 Nov)
3. 'Mid-January Edit' - Verses, plus all sections recorded in early Jan under Master #57020, except 'Bridge to Indians'.

No 'Part Two' edits, as from the recording logs this doesn't seem to have become a major consideration (if you don't count whatever 'I'm in Great Shape' might have been in December) until February - and even then, of course, we don't entirely know.

I would also suggest listening to the 'Cantina Mix' ('single version' A-side on the box) right after these to get a sense of the 'next phase of development'. Not that any of the above are actual 'stages', of course...

https://www.sendspace.com/file/mozizz

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

I love your methodology, I forgive the edits and appreciate your efforts. All of these H&Vs sound completely insane. Forgive the language, but they really are completely bonkers. I'm not saying you're wrong- but what if the various "finished" iterations really are the best? Smiley, BWPS and TSS included? I think all three offer something unique and complement the Smile aesthetic.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Cheers, Marcella.

They are absolutely nuts, yeah - and I have to take full credit for the insanity of the latter two as well! (The first one at least has some sequencing guidelines from Brian via Durrie's acetate and Humble Harv). Glad you appreciated the approach - it really was just a gonzo experiment; not for a moment do I think what was actually planned or mixed down 'in real life' would have sounded much - if anything - like any of these.

But I do think, my own incompetence aside, that it's genuinely hard to see, using the recorded pieces/info that survive, quite how an actual 'song' - let alone an A-side single - was going to take shape, right up till February really. (And 'Cantina' is pretty oddly structured as well; despite being properly tweaked and mixed by BW and Britz.)

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

I suggest the 90s Smiley "Cantina version" was the first "successful" attempt, hence its preservation and eventual release and influence on subsequent mixes.

[Nile]

2. 'Late November/December Edit' - Verses (vocals tracked from Dec '66 onwards), 'Chimes/Intro to Part 3' (rec 12/66), 'The Old Master Painter'/YAMS/'Part Two' Fade (rec 14 Nov)

https://www.sendspace.com/file/mozizz

HB,
great work on your mixes, especially love the way "Part3/chimes" nicely segues into "Old master painter", it really seems to fit that way!

[mike moseley]

some interesting segues but overall I think still the same old problem with edit attempts at this song i.e. its disjointed

I think the transition in the 3rd version from the a capella into 'Eat a lot...' works really well

I think a smoothly flowing version can be put together and I'm working on a few versions but it involves endless chiselling away to get something coherent, you can go nuts trying

I would also suggest listening to the 'Cantina Mix' ('single version' A-side on the box) right after these to get a sense of the 'next phase of development'. Not that any of the above are actual 'stages', of course...

https://www.sendspace.com/file/mozizz

[mike moseley]

here's 2 goes at the start of the song - the usual 2 opening verses would come before these sections

I'm doing about 10 variations of the opening, then I'll pick my favourites and do the middle section, then the end - it must flow naturally

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'Heroes Edits'

[Nile]

here's 2 goes at the start of the song - the usual 2 opening verses would come before these sections

I'm doing about 10 variations of the opening, then I'll pick my favourites and do the middle section, then the end - it must flow naturally

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'Heroes Edits'

Ohh my Good!
This in unbelievable!! Please give us more!
Reminded me of JMZ's mix! For you who heard that mix, remember how that one?' He even got to do really smooth, flowing HVpt2, incorporating Barnyard and HV piano theme and chorus with Animals!
But meantime, Mike, give us more!

[mike moseley]

golly cheers Nile

I've got a strict 'no-pitch bending' policy + no adding anything - its got to be pure Brian

also I think I have better mixes of some of the sections like Barnyard so I'll substitute them as I go

please bear with me as its very slow going but I'll try to upload some more sections in the next couple of days

I have some fantastic stuff using the Iron Horse Cab section as the middle 8 but that's cheating

here's 2 goes at the start of the song - the usual 2 opening verses would come before these sections

I'm doing about 10 variations of the opening, then I'll pick my favourites and do the middle section, then the end - it must flow naturally

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'Heroes Edits'

Ohh my Good!
This in unbelievable!! Please give us more!
Reminded me of JMZ's mix! For you who heard that mix, remember how that one?' He even got to do really smooth, flowing HVpt2, incorporating Barnyard and HV piano theme and chorus with Animals!
But meantime, Mike, give us more!

[Summertime Blooz]

here's 2 goes at the start of the song - the usual 2 opening verses would come before these sections

I'm doing about 10 variations of the opening, then I'll pick my favourites and do the middle section, then the end - it must flow naturally

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'Heroes Edits'

OMG! Man, I can't wait to hear your complete H&V. That cross fading is absolutely incredible.

[mike moseley]

cheers  the actual individual sections like barnyard have been done by other people but the transitions
between sections are by me - I think there's quite a lot of room for finessing

its got to flow - if the narrative can be structured to make sense even better

the first clip is the strongest of the 2 I think

OMG! Man, I can't wait to hear your complete H&V. That cross fading is absolutely incredible.

[Cam Mott]

From the first recording through March  1967, what has Brian meant when he labels, notes, or slates a recording as an "insert"?

[ash]

Confusingly I think it means overdub in Brian's case.
Elsewhere I think it means a section to be inserted into an existing piece.
I'd get better minds to confirm or deny that.

[Cam Mott]

I was thinking instead of "insert" he called those "overdubs" or something else......"fills".......or......"pick ups"?

[yonderhillside]

here's 2 goes at the start of the song - the usual 2 opening verses would come before these sections

I'm doing about 10 variations of the opening, then I'll pick my favourites and do the middle section, then the end - it must flow naturally

https://soundcloud.com/spooky-music

'Heroes Edits'

"Intro" segueing into "Old Master Painter" is fucking (is it okay to say 'fucking' here?) brilliant. Loving the mixes, so many 'tape explosions', cheers!

[ThreeCats]

I have a theory that the Cantina section wasn't just a replacement for I'm in Great Shape but was actually a rewriting of it, similar to how Cool, Cool Water was a rewriting of Love To Say Da Da. I layered the Great Shape vocals over the Cantina backing track and it's almost a perfect fit.