The initial structure of Heroes and Villains

[Matt Bielewicz]

Well, surprise! The internet is wrong!  

VDP says, in the only two places we have these lyrics printed in any kind of semi-official, sanctioned-by-him kind of way, that it's 'cotillion'. That'll do for me. Especially over years of people guessing at it and writing it on the internet!

Regarding the meaning; I feel like this was discussed many years ago, and so I don't think this is my theory so much as one I read many moons back on the original SMiLE Shop and am merely remembering in public now, but how's about this for an interpretation?

First, what does the line actually say? In the BWPS booklet (to which VDP had fairly close input), it's given as (note the commas, I'll come back to those):

'Once at night, cotillion squared, the fight, and she was right

[new line]

in the rain of the bullets that eventually brought her down'

With The SMiLE Sessions booklet, it's much less clear that VDP had direct input to that, as he was more estranged from that project, but what the hey, it's the OTHER place these lyrics are 'semi-officially' printed, so you have to go with what we've got. And in THAT booklet, the lines (still with commas, but fewer of them) are rendered thus:

'Once at night, cotillion squared the fight,

[new line]

and she was right

[new line]

in the rain of the bullets that eventually

[new line]

brought her down—'

VDP's lyrics are poetry of a kind, so try thinking poetically and looking askance at the structure. When you do that, it doesn't have to be read literally. The literal reading would be 'once upon a time, when it was night-time, some character named Cotillion squared off in a fight'. That is one interpretation, sure. But what if it's more like a snatched, short-form journalistic description to set the scene, like you find at the beginning of a movie script, like: 'OK, guys, picture this: it's back in the day, the Wild West, it's night, there's this cotillion forming a square [which of course is what a cotillion is, a French country dance in which four couples form a square] — and then there's a fight'.

Almost like:

Once; at night; cotillion squared; a fight

Or: "Scene: a dance, night-time. A cotillion squared. In the background, a fight going on"

It can almost be read like scene directions, with the different aspects to which we're supposed to be having our attention drawn sectioned off by commas. And then, in the next line, a 'she' is introduced. Who's 'she'? Well, we don't know her name yet, but every Wild West tale has to have a heroine, right? So this is her. And then we only learn her name much later... like in most films. (To take a current cinematic example, there's this stormtrooper guy on screen for several scenes and several minutes at the start of the film before he's asked his name by another character, and finally, we learn that his name is FN-2187... which isn't even the name that we come to know him by for the rest of the film)

It's poetry, so... think poetically. You see characters appear at the start of the 'film', you don't know who they are yet, but a couple of scenes later, if you're lucky someone will name them, and you'll find out. And in H&V, 'she' is not actually named at all until the next verse 'Dance, Margarita!'

It doesn't have to be so literal, you know, like: "Who's this Cotillion character that's squaring off in the first line? Oh, well, it must be the 'she' that crops up in the next line. Well, she must be called Cotillion then, I guess..."

PS I'm loving, loving *loving* the master numbers showdown stuff in this thread. I have no idea who, if anyone, is right, but there are some excellent ideas and arguments on both sides. And sheeez, it's just so nice to see THIS kind of stuff back on this board, rather than 'Brian is better than Mike, ner!' 'No! Mike is better than Brian, durr!' It's been like the friggin' stupid Mantis Shrimp fighting each other in Octonauts in here for far too long (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muvd7l5mLSM if this means absolutely nothing to you)... whereas analyses of Capitol master numbers, 1967 H&V recording dates and the possible significance and position of commas in VDP's lyrics... THAT's the kind of stuff that brings me back here, time and again...!

[Micha]

With The SMiLE Sessions booklet, it's much less clear that VDP had direct input to that, as he was more estranged from that project, but what the hey, it's the OTHER place these lyrics are 'semi-officially' printed,

I'd say that's pretty much official, not semi.

"cotillion squared" makes no sense to me, other than there's another dance called "square".

[Cam Mott]

With The SMiLE Sessions booklet, it's much less clear that VDP had direct input to that, as he was more estranged from that project, but what the hey, it's the OTHER place these lyrics are 'semi-officially' printed,

I'd say that's pretty much official, not semi.

"cotillion squared" makes no sense to me, other than there's another dance called "square".

Over here you "square off" to fight. Often at a dance.

I don't know what VDP meant but to me it seems he might mean that one night a cotillion (a dance, maybe including square dancing) provided the opportunity and atmosphere for heroes and villains to "square off" in a gun fight in which she (innocent girl) was caught in the middle. "Cotillion" is the dance and "she" is the innocent girl.  Something like that? 

[Bicyclerider]

Not to go back and rehash everything, but the December structure of Heroes and Villains was almost certainly:

Verses/Great Shape/"my children were raised . . . Often wise"/3 score and five/a Capella/Barynard

Which others may have already proposed earlier.  And I would say that this was the structure even after the track list with Great Shape as a separate song was submitted to Capitol.

[zosobird]

Not to go back and rehash everything, but the December structure of Heroes and Villains was almost certainly:

Verses/Great Shape/"my children were raised . . . Often wise"/3 score and five/a Capella/Barynard

Which others may have already proposed earlier.  And I would say that this was the structure even after the track list with Great Shape as a separate song was submitted to Capitol.

What do you mean this is "most certainly" the December structure?? How do you explain IIGS being a section within H&V AND it's own separate song?

[mike moseley]

I like it - can you briefly outline how you know this..?  cheers

Not to go back and rehash everything, but the December structure of Heroes and Villains was almost certainly:

Verses/Great Shape/"my children were raised . . . Often wise"/3 score and five/a Capella/Barynard

Which others may have already proposed earlier.  And I would say that this was the structure even after the track list with Great Shape as a separate song was submitted to Capitol.

[Micha]

Not to go back and rehash everything, but the December structure of Heroes and Villains was almost certainly:

Verses/Great Shape/"my children were raised . . . Often wise"/3 score and five/a Capella/Barynard

Which others may have already proposed earlier.  And I would say that this was the structure even after the track list with Great Shape as a separate song was submitted to Capitol.

What do you mean this is "most certainly" the December structure?? How do you explain IIGS being a section within H&V AND it's own separate song?

Did Brian call the IIGS section of H&V IIGS? Or could it be that the track IIGS is something different from the H&V section we call IIGS?

[Summertime Blooz]

Well, surprise! The internet is wrong!  

VDP says, in the only two places we have these lyrics printed in any kind of semi-official, sanctioned-by-him kind of way, that it's 'cotillion'. That'll do for me. Especially over years of people guessing at it and writing it on the internet!

Regarding the meaning; I feel like this was discussed many years ago, and so I don't think this is my theory so much as one I read many moons back on the original SMiLE Shop and am merely remembering in public now, but how's about this for an interpretation?

First, what does the line actually say? In the BWPS booklet (to which VDP had fairly close input), it's given as (note the commas, I'll come back to those):

'Once at night, cotillion squared, the fight, and she was right

[new line]

in the rain of the bullets that eventually brought her down'

With The SMiLE Sessions booklet, it's much less clear that VDP had direct input to that, as he was more estranged from that project, but what the hey, it's the OTHER place these lyrics are 'semi-officially' printed, so you have to go with what we've got. And in THAT booklet, the lines (still with commas, but fewer of them) are rendered thus:

'Once at night, cotillion squared the fight,

[new line]

and she was right

[new line]

in the rain of the bullets that eventually

[new line]

brought her down—'

VDP's lyrics are poetry of a kind, so try thinking poetically and looking askance at the structure. When you do that, it doesn't have to be read literally. The literal reading would be 'once upon a time, when it was night-time, some character named Cotillion squared off in a fight'. That is one interpretation, sure. But what if it's more like a snatched, short-form journalistic description to set the scene, like you find at the beginning of a movie script, like: 'OK, guys, picture this: it's back in the day, the Wild West, it's night, there's this cotillion forming a square [which of course is what a cotillion is, a French country dance in which four couples form a square] — and then there's a fight'.

Almost like:

Once; at night; cotillion squared; a fight

Or: "Scene: a dance, night-time. A cotillion squared. In the background, a fight going on"

It can almost be read like scene directions, with the different aspects to which we're supposed to be having our attention drawn sectioned off by commas. And then, in the next line, a 'she' is introduced. Who's 'she'? Well, we don't know her name yet, but every Wild West tale has to have a heroine, right? So this is her. And then we only learn her name much later... like in most films. (To take a current cinematic example, there's this stormtrooper guy on screen for several scenes and several minutes at the start of the film before he's asked his name by another character, and finally, we learn that his name is FN-2187... which isn't even the name that we come to know him by for the rest of the film)

It's poetry, so... think poetically. You see characters appear at the start of the 'film', you don't know who they are yet, but a couple of scenes later, if you're lucky someone will name them, and you'll find out. And in H&V, 'she' is not actually named at all until the next verse 'Dance, Margarita!'

It doesn't have to be so literal, you know, like: "Who's this Cotillion character that's squaring off in the first line? Oh, well, it must be the 'she' that crops up in the next line. Well, she must be called Cotillion then, I guess..."

PS I'm loving, loving *loving* the master numbers showdown stuff in this thread. I have no idea who, if anyone, is right, but there are some excellent ideas and arguments on both sides. And sheeez, it's just so nice to see THIS kind of stuff back on this board, rather than 'Brian is better than Mike, ner!' 'No! Mike is better than Brian, durr!' It's been like the friggin' stupid Mantis Shrimp fighting each other in Octonauts in here for far too long (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muvd7l5mLSM if this means absolutely nothing to you)... whereas analyses of Capitol master numbers, 1967 H&V recording dates and the possible significance and position of commas in VDP's lyrics... THAT's the kind of stuff that brings me back here, time and again...!

Thank you for that lengthy and thoughtful response. This really helps to focus my thoughts on the lyric, and who am I to argue with VDP? "Once at night, cotillion squared, the fight" actually makes the most poetic sense to me. Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

[Micha]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

[Cam Mott]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

"Squared" is the verb in this case I believe.

[Bicyclerider]

I can't explain the separate Great Shape listing except that perhaps the track list submitted was not as definitive as we have considered it.

There are two sources of evidence for this being the structure - first, the Inside Pop notes.  don't have them at hand but at the Dec 15 vocal session (Wonderful backing vocals, attempt at Surf's Up, Cabinessence backing vocals) Brian plays Heroes and Villains and the notes make clear it goes from the verses into great shape.  Presumably he's playing this on the piano much as he did for Humble Harv Miller.  I'd quote it but I don't have my notes with me, I can post it tomorrow but it would probably be more fun for people to search it out themselves.

The second source is the acetate auctioned by Durrie Parks of the Heroes mix that consists of (all instrumental) Heroes verse/Great Shape/my children . . . Often wise/3 score and five.  The Great Shape in this mix is an unreleased and missing from the tape archive rerecord of the Great Shape music which based on the instrumentation was recorded Dec 27 - I confirmed this with c-man, it is the only session that matches the instrumentation.  Assuming this acetate mix was put together on Dec 27 or Dec 28, as is most likely, that means Great Shape was still in the mix at that late date, despite the track list.  I've not heard this mix but I've conversed with some who have.

As for the a capella section - this is conjecture on my part but if we have the structure based on the acetate through the third verse (3 score and five), if there was to be an a capella section it seems this is the only place it could go, and it did end up there on the final single.  the two finished mixes we have, cantina and the single, both have a vocal only section so I feel pretty certain Brian intended that all along.

So where would Heroes Part 3.  (Chimes intro, recorded Dec 66 but no definitive date) go?  Depends on what we consider the end of Part 2.  Would that be at the end of Great Shape (but on Dec 27 the acetate mix doesn't include it, unless it was already rejected or not recorded yet)?  Or at the end of 3 score and five, as indicated in the acetate?  Or immediately before Part 4 (Barnyard)?

[Summertime Blooz]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

My take is it's a poetic way of  saying 'square dance'.

[Cam Mott]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

My take is it's a poetic way of  saying 'square dance'.

"Square" in the context of fight is slang for taking a stance facing your opponent(s) in preparation for fighting. Ie. To square up to or to square off with your opponent.

[Summertime Blooz]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

My take is it's a poetic way of  saying 'square dance'.

"Square" in the context of fight is slang for taking a stance facing your opponent(s) in preparation for fighting. Ie. To square up to or to square off with your opponent.

I understand that use of the word, but knowing that VDP put a a comma after "cotillion squared" for BWPS redefines that line's meaning to me.  No need for a comma if "squared" refers to "the fight". Matt's articualate post laid it out quite nicely.

[jiggityjars]

I'm pretty sure that the rumor that the Beatles somehow heard some Smile tapes in January 1967 has been debunked. Regardless, I find it interesting that the Beatles started recording A Day in the Life on January 19th, 1967, which is shortly after Brian put together a version of H&V incorporating IIGS and a tape explosion. Compare this to A Day in the Life which includes an orchestra playing wildly somewhat mimicking a tape explosion, and especially note Paul's "woke up, got out of bed" section, which is awfully similar to "mornings tumble out of bed". The "woke up" section in A Day in the Life is also similar to IIGS in how it seems unrelated to the rest of the song (unlike the modular approach in "Good Vibrations" where the different sections are more clearly related). I think the most logical explanation for these similarities is "great minds think alike," but...

[soniclovenoize]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

My take is it's a poetic way of  saying 'square dance'.

"Square" in the context of fight is slang for taking a stance facing your opponent(s) in preparation for fighting. Ie. To square up to or to square off with your opponent.

Or "squared" is an exponent...  as in "to the second power"? 

[Cam Mott]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

My take is it's a poetic way of  saying 'square dance'.

"Square" in the context of fight is slang for taking a stance facing your opponent(s) in preparation for fighting. Ie. To square up to or to square off with your opponent.

I understand that use of the word, but knowing that VDP put a a comma after "cotillion squared" for BWPS redefines that line's meaning to me.  No need for a comma if "squared" refers to "the fight". Matt's articualate post laid it out quite nicely.

So he means it's a late night dance that has been multiplied times itself?  Do we know VDP placed that comma because that is not the way it is sung imo.

[soniclovenoize]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

My take is it's a poetic way of  saying 'square dance'.

"Square" in the context of fight is slang for taking a stance facing your opponent(s) in preparation for fighting. Ie. To square up to or to square off with your opponent.

I understand that use of the word, but knowing that VDP put a a comma after "cotillion squared" for BWPS redefines that line's meaning to me.  No need for a comma if "squared" refers to "the fight". Matt's articualate post laid it out quite nicely.

So he means it's a late night dance that has been multiplied times itself?  Do we know VDP placed that comma because that is not the way it is sung imo.

Is it literally a dance, or is he equating a gunfight to be dance-like? 

[Cam Mott]

OK, but that is not the meaning I take from the words as sung.

[soniclovenoize]

OK, but that is not the meaning I take from the words as sung.

That's fine, it's poetry. 

[Summertime Blooz]

Although "Once at night, cotillion squared the fight" seems OK too, as long as you keep in mind that "squared" is an adjective for "cotillion", and not a verb, which is how I've always thought of it. I think that "squared" as an adjective is the key to it all that clears up my confusion.

But don't adjectives precede the noun in English? And even if it is meant to be an adjective, what is a squared cotillion?

My take is it's a poetic way of  saying 'square dance'.

"Square" in the context of fight is slang for taking a stance facing your opponent(s) in preparation for fighting. Ie. To square up to or to square off with your opponent.

I understand that use of the word, but knowing that VDP put a a comma after "cotillion squared" for BWPS redefines that line's meaning to me.  No need for a comma if "squared" refers to "the fight". Matt's articualate post laid it out quite nicely.

So he means it's a late night dance that has been multiplied times itself?  Do we know VDP placed that comma because that is not the way it is sung imo.

The comma is in the BWPS booklet. VDP is credited as being responsible for the words for the project. That's the facts of the matter.

[zosobird]

OK, but that is not the meaning I take from the words as sung.

That's fine, it's poetry. 

don't discount multiple meanings, there's not necessarily just one

[soniclovenoize]

OK, but that is not the meaning I take from the words as sung.

That's fine, it's poetry. 

don't discount multiple meanings, there's not necessarily just one

I know, I'm suggesting it is a double meaning--as 1) a square dance and 2) a "dance" to the second power. 

For the record, I always thought Cotillion was a proper noun, the name of the character who was caught in the rain of bullets; I was unaware what a cotillion was!  (Although I could have sworn that Cotillion was a Shakespearean name, a minor character in Romeo and Juliette at least, but I must be mistaken).  Likewise, I always thought the comma in the BWPS was just a typo, I didn't think much of it.  But in reading these last few pages, I can see how it very well it could have been structured as a double meaning in the guise of a metaphor. 

[Cam Mott]

OK, but that is not the meaning I take from the words as sung.

That's fine, it's poetry. 

don't discount multiple meanings, there's not necessarily just one

I know, I'm suggesting it is a double meaning--as 1) a square dance and 2) a "dance" to the second power. 

For the record, I always thought Cotillion was a proper noun, the name of the character who was caught in the rain of bullets; I was unaware what a cotillion was!  (Although I could have sworn that Cotillion was a Shakespearean name, a minor character in Romeo and Juliette at least, but I must be mistaken).  Likewise, I always thought the comma in the BWPS was just a typo, I didn't think much of it.  But in reading these last few pages, I can see how it very well it could have been structured as a double meaning in the guise of a metaphor. 

Why is it not performed as punctuated is my first question if that is what was intended.

[soniclovenoize]

Why is it not performed as punctuated is my first question if that is what was intended.

Because it would mess up the structure of the meter and melody.

It's sort of the ee cummings thing, I
presume.  You don't see it often, but off
the top of my head, one of

my favorite bands the pAper chAse also does this, where
the lyrics are sung, but as they are
printed with punctuation that is not sung but gives a clue to the literary meaning
of the lyrics, so that one needs
to not only hear the lyrics but read them
to understand.