The initial structure of Heroes and Villains

[The Old Master Painter]

This song was, according to history, written and attempted as early as May 1966. There was supposedly even a 2:45 master take from May. Does anyone know what the structure of Heroes was around May-December 1966, before the post-January took place? The Humble Harv Demo explains quite a bit, since the song went like: Verse/Flutter Horn/Great Shape/Barnyard, but nothing after that, since Brian explained he was working on it. Did Cantina replace Great Shape later on? Anyways, if anyone knows or could speculate with substance what the structure of Heroes was in late '66, I'd like to read about it. Thanks.

[c-man]

According to Al Kooper, who heard the May '66 track, it incorporated a variation of "You Are My Sunshine".

[Cam Mott]

Al Kooper; Backstage Passes & Backstabbing Bastards:

“…David Anderle had also been responsible for engineering a meeting between me and one of my idols, Brian Wilson of the Beach    Boys. David took me up to Brian’s house, a sprawling, Spanish-style mansion in ultra-posh Bel-Air, one evening about a week before Brian unleashed ‘Pet Sounds’ on the world. Brian played a test-pressing of the record, jumping up and stopping cuts in the middle and starting them over to emphasize his points. He was very proud of his accomplishment, maybe even a little show-offish, but I wasn’t about to argue.
Then Brian sat down at the piano in his living room (which featured a full-on soda fountain where the bar should’ve been) and gave us two uninterrupted hours of possible variations on ‘Trees’ - you know, the ‘I think that I shall never see a poem as lovely as a tree’ thing - which he hoped to have the Beach Boys record. I’d brought along a copy of ‘Music of Bulgaria’, my favorite album at the time, and he got blown out by that. Then he shattered me completely by playing a track he was working on and singing along to it live. The song was ‘Good Vibrations’ . ‘Nuff said. He also played me a rough tape of ‘Heroes and Villains’, which evolved, I believe, from a Wilson revamping of ‘You Are My Sunshine’.”


E-mail:

Me: Was the version of Brian Wilson's "Heroes and Villains" you heard at Brian's house in May '66 much different than the version that was released as a 45 and on Smiley Smile or the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations" boxset?

Al: yes-it was interpolated with "you are my sunshine." go figure.....dont miss brians pet sounds summer show this year
Al Kooper 6/10/00

Later:

Al: IT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A BIZARRE ARRANGEMENT OF "SUNSHINE" HE MUST HAVE DECIDED LATER TO MAKE HIS OWN SONG OVER THE TRACK - THATS MY GUESS. ASK HIM - HE'S STILL ALIVE.
Al Kooper 9/21/00

[Emily]

Al Kooper; Backstage Passes & Backstabbing Bastards:

“…David Anderle had also been responsible for engineering a meeting between me and one of my idols, Brian Wilson of the Beach    Boys. David took me up to Brian’s house, a sprawling, Spanish-style mansion in ultra-posh Bel-Air, one evening about a week before Brian unleashed ‘Pet Sounds’ on the world. Brian played a test-pressing of the record, jumping up and stopping cuts in the middle and starting them over to emphasize his points. He was very proud of his accomplishment, maybe even a little show-offish, but I wasn’t about to argue.
Then Brian sat down at the piano in his living room (which featured a full-on soda fountain where the bar should’ve been) and gave us two uninterrupted hours of possible variations on ‘Trees’ - you know, the ‘I think that I shall never see a poem as lovely as a tree’ thing - which he hoped to have the Beach Boys record. I’d brought along a copy of ‘Music of Bulgaria’, my favorite album at the time, and he got blown out by that. Then he shattered me completely by playing a track he was working on and singing along to it live. The song was ‘Good Vibrations’ . ‘Nuff said. He also played me a rough tape of ‘Heroes and Villains’, which evolved, I believe, from a Wilson revamping of ‘You Are My Sunshine’.”


E-mail:

Me: Was the version of Brian Wilson's "Heroes and Villains" you heard at Brian's house in May '66 much different than the version that was released as a 45 and on Smiley Smile or the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations" boxset?

Al: yes-it was interpolated with "you are my sunshine." go figure.....dont miss brians pet sounds summer show this year
Al Kooper 6/10/00

Later:

Al: IT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A BIZARRE ARRANGEMENT OF "SUNSHINE" HE MUST HAVE DECIDED LATER TO MAKE HIS OWN SONG OVER THE TRACK - THATS MY GUESS. ASK HIM - HE'S STILL ALIVE.
Al Kooper 9/21/00

Awesome. Thanks Cam. Would you recommend the book generally? It's cool that he responded to you.

[Cam Mott]

It is very interesting. I think I wasn't even aware of the book when I first contacted him but had read it before that last response. I like how he was having enough fanboy and reminded me that I could ask Brian.

He has his email addy available on his website's landing page these days.

http://www.alkooper.com/

[Andrew G. Doe]

Brian wasn't living in Bel Air in spring 1966. The Laurel  Way  house is neither Spanish style, ultra posh nor a mansion. These are not small points.

[The Old Master Painter]

Well, that's something.... So was Heroes supposedly: Verse/Old Master Painter/Sunshine/False Barnyard Fade at that time? That's quite something.

On November 4th, Great Shape and Barnyard were indeed part of Heroes judging by the Humble Harv demo, therefore the Heroes of 1966 was:

Verse/Great Shape/Barnyard/Old Master Painter/Sunshine/False Barnyard Fade?

[The Old Master Painter]

Well, that's something.... So was Heroes supposedly: Verse/Old Master Painter/Sunshine/False Barnyard Fade at that time? That's quite something.

On November 4th, Great Shape and Barnyard were indeed part of Heroes judging by the Humble Harv demo, therefore the Heroes of 1966 was:

Verse/Great Shape/Barnyard/Old Master Painter/Sunshine/False Barnyard Fade?

And was Cantina/Children Were Raised/Three Score a '67 addition, musically and lyrically?

[Emily]

Brian wasn't living in Bel Air in spring 1966. The Laurel  Way  house is neither Spanish style, ultra posh nor a mansion. These are not small points.

I suppose that means he was either conflating two memories, in which case it's unclear which memory contained "Heroes and Villains" or it's one memory but he mistakenly placed it before Pet Sounds came out (which would be very odd because he says he was hearing a test-pressing and I assume he knows a Pet Sounds song when he hears it), in which case the "Heroes and Villains" he heard is much later. Do you agree? Or do you have another interpretation?

eta: oh, and he also refers to "Good Vibrations" as an unreleased song, so my second supposition can't be right.

[The Shift]

Brian wasn't living in Bel Air in spring 1966. The Laurel  Way  house is neither Spanish style, ultra posh nor a mansion. These are not small points.

I suppose that means he was either conflating two memories, in which case it's unclear which memory contained "Heroes and Villains" or it's one memory but he mistakenly placed it before Pet Sounds came out (which would be very odd because he says he was hearing a test-pressing and I assume he knows a Pet Sounds song when he hears it), in which case the "Heroes and Villains" he heard is much later. Do you agree? Or do you have another interpretation?

eta: oh, and he also refers to "Good Vibrations" as an unreleased song, so my second supposition can't be right.

Of he couldn't recall much at all about the house in which they met, so he (inaccurately) researched it after the event purely for the sake of adding a little detail to the story?

[Cam Mott]

We should email him and tell him he wasn't really  there after all.  

[The_Holy_Bee]

I wrote this in response to the OP's query over on the TSS sub-board about the 'classic' structure of H&V:

Simple answer is, there isn't one. Or rather, there don't seem to be any such edits surviving (unless you're including the Feb '67 mix originally released on the 'Smiley Smile/Wild Honey' twofer). There is a suggestion that track 24 of Disc 4 of TSS ("Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sections") is actually more by way of a rough edit than the 'outtakes' suggested by the naming of the track. It certainly sounds - to these ears - somewhat consciously sequenced. But that's subjective, of course.

Similarly, when the Durrie Parks acetates were described on these boards a couple years back by 'andy', apparently on a disc entitled 'H&V', an unbooted or released version of 'I'm in Great Shape' (with 'heavier instrumentation') begins:

'In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five", and that then played out until the finish of the acetate.'

Really, the only real 'period evidence' we have is the 'Humble Harv' demo from Nov '66, in which the two first verses of 'H&V' lead into IIGS and then Barnyard. Of course, it's very likely - and indeed, implied strongly by Brian's comment of 'here's another section now' just before 'Barnyard' - that some or most connective musical tissue is missing from this impromptu rendition.

And then this thought occurred:

[C]ombining the two period sequencings referred to above, don't we have a pretty good suggestion of the intended structure of H&V circa Nov/Dec '66? (remembering we don't know quite when the relevant Durrie Parks acetate dates from):

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', knowing the Feb '67 edit ended with a similar fade:] Barnyard to close.

This seems to incorporate all the 1966 instrumental sessions logged for H&V but 'Intro [Early Version]' (the section later re-recorded and, much later, re-used as 'Fire Intro'), and is in line with both period assemblies we have for the number before IIGS appears to have been broken off into a separate track. A 'Tape explosion' might have provided a transition out of either IIGS (as in the TSS takes) or 'Three Score and Five' (as in the Feb '67 version), or both.

Obviously this doesn't necessarily relate to the original May version, but is my best stab at the late '66 'three minute musical comedy' conception, using the info - and, critically, the period partial edit and 'demo' - we know about.

[Emily]

Brian wasn't living in Bel Air in spring 1966. The Laurel  Way  house is neither Spanish style, ultra posh nor a mansion. These are not small points.

I suppose that means he was either conflating two memories, in which case it's unclear which memory contained "Heroes and Villains" or it's one memory but he mistakenly placed it before Pet Sounds came out (which would be very odd because he says he was hearing a test-pressing and I assume he knows a Pet Sounds song when he hears it), in which case the "Heroes and Villains" he heard is much later. Do you agree? Or do you have another interpretation?

eta: oh, and he also refers to "Good Vibrations" as an unreleased song, so my second supposition can't be right.

Of he couldn't recall much at all about the house in which they met, so he (inaccurately) researched it after the event purely for the sake of adding a little detail to the story?

Good point. That would make sense as well.

[Andrew G. Doe]

It's a poser, as he very specifically dates it to a week before Pet Sounds was released - circa May 9th - and correctly notes "GV" as an unreleased song Brian was working on (there was a session on the 4th)... but gets the house entirely wrong. 10452 Bellagio Way was a sprawling, Spanish style mansion, several times bigger than 1440 Laurel Way... but Brian didn't move there until April 1967. My guess is also that there was some later embroidery.

[Emily]

We should email him and tell him he wasn't really  there after all.  

I know you're joking, but if one dared one could write and ask for a clarification.

I can't find an "I'm a coward" emoji.

[The_Holy_Bee]

And was Cantina/Children Were Raised/Three Score a '67 addition, musically and lyrically?

Cantina seems to have been - taped 27 Jan '67 (apparently both track and vox on the same day). As posted above, at least one of the DP acetate edits has IIGS preceding 'Children were raised/Three score and five' - ie. in the same slot as Cantina in the Feb 'single version' - so it could probably be conjectured that this new section was written ('when Van came back') in January to replace the original 'fresh clean air' part included in 'Humble Harv'.

Interestingly, we can't be sure about the original recordings of any of the verse vocals for H&V, except the new 'Children were raised' (without the 'often') taped on the same day as 'Cantina'. The TSS sessionography simply states that 'Vocals [were] probably recorded at Columbia Studio A', late 1966 or early 1967 (exact date unknown)' - and none of the actual session tapes for these seem to have survived.

From Humble Harv it can be surmised that, as of Nov 4, the first two verses as we know them were written and intended for the song. Hard to know about 'Three score and five', but it seems plausible - not least because the DP acetate places the backing track for this and the (earlier take of) 'Children were raised' directly after IIGS, presumably before this was extracted for the scrap heap or use in its own titular track. (I'd suggest this places that acetate as early/mid December 1966, prior to the composition of the 'Capitol memo' giving the twelve selections, but I might well be wrong.)

There was also apparently 'about a week of recording' on a lead vocal that had been more-or-less 'promised to Mike' (from Anderle) which Brian then ended up doing himself - it's been suggested (not, I think, without reason) that this was the lead to H&V. (Coincidence? Perhaps.) A co-lead Brian/Mike mix at least survives in the bonus 'Outtake Sections' track on the box.

EDIT: Taking all this into account, I think a possible timeline in which...

Nov '66: H&V includes 'IIGS' and 'Barnyard';
Dec '66-Jan '67: is then nominated to be the much-need single, causing the extraction of these comical interludes and their replacement with the 'Cantina' section and the repurposed, re-recorded OMP 'grand finale' as a fade (YAMS, after all, being long-connected to H&V);
Late Feb: then this version in turn reconsidered when it's decided a real chorus is necessary (and one thusly pinched from DYLW);
June: and finally the song is restructured/re-recorded almost entirely for the final single release.

... can be pretty plausibly put together. What this does leave as an almost complete mystery, however, is how 'Intro (Early Version)' was meant to fit into the puzzle. Not only was one version of this keyboard-driven piece taped in (probably) December '66, but the second (known best now as 'Fire Intro) appears to have been one of the last things (the last?) recorded for the track before the long hiatus between March and June '67. So it appears to have been of some structural importance for H&V right through the transition from album track to lead single in late '66-early '67.

And yet no known official mix - or even many fan versions - see fit to include it.

[The Old Master Painter]

So an ideal '66 version would be Verse Edit Experiment (off SMiLE Sessions)/Flutter Horn/Great Shape/Children Were Raised (due to Durrie Parks acetates structure)/Three Score/Whistling Bridge/Explosion/Barnyard/False Barnyard Fade (Or OMP after Barnyard).

An ideal '67 version would be the Cantina edit, but with a chorus (Bicycle Rider with vox, which was recorded in June).

What would be the ideal Heroes Pt. 2?

[Phoenix]

And yet no known official mix - or even many fan versions - see fit to include it.

It's in mine and always has been. 

I'll have it online in the next day or two if you're interested in hearing it.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Depends what you mean by 'ideal', really. Meaning 'using the most/best parts contemporaneously recorded'? Or meaning 'the most likely to be historically accurate'?

If the latter, yep - the '66 version you have there looks pretty plausible (and similar to the one I posited above), except for the 'false Barnyard fade/OMP after Barnyard'. Its presence (though in crossed-out parentheses) on the Capitol tracklist means OMP is likely to be the edit actually assembled by BW in 1966 - OMP/YAMS/'Grand finale' fade - and considered (just) its own track, not a part of H&V. I'd use Barnyard as the fade, personally, but that might just be me. We enter the realm of conjecture pretty quickly here, as with the 'whistling bridge' and where exactly the tape explosion(s) would have occurred.

As for '67, I think there might be at least three pretty distinct conceptions - the 'modified '66 version', with Cantina and Barnshine instead of IIGS and Barnyard from January; the aborted 'with chorus' version from late Feb; and the final 'actual single release' version from June.

[The Old Master Painter]

Depends what you mean by 'ideal', really. Meaning 'using the most/best parts contemporaneously recorded'? Or meaning 'the most likely to be historically accurate'?

If the latter, yep - the '66 version you have there looks pretty plausible (and similar to the one I posited above), except for the 'false Barnyard fade/OMP after Barnyard'. Its presence (though in crossed-out parentheses) on the Capitol tracklist means OMP is likely to be the edit actually assembled by BW in 1966 - OMP/YAMS/'Grand finale' fade - and considered (just) its own track, not a part of H&V. I'd use Barnyard as the fade, personally, but that might just be me. We enter the realm of conjecture pretty quickly here, as with the 'whistling bridge' and where exactly the tape explosion(s) would have occurred.

As for '67, I think there might be at least three pretty distinct conceptions - the 'modified '66 version', with Cantina and Barnshine instead of IIGS and Barnyard from January; the aborted 'with chorus' version from late Feb; and the final 'actual single release' version from June.

Indeed. I am going to upload my '66 mix on Vimeo based on your suggestions... Thanks!

[The_Holy_Bee]

And yet no known official mix - or even many fan versions - see fit to include it.

It's in mine and always has been. 

I'll have it online in the next day or two if you're interested in hearing it.

Nice! And yes, I would be!

It's in mine, too (the 'Fire Intro' version, despite trying to hew as closely as possible to a possible '66 version). Not sure where you use it, but I have it following 'Cantina', right after 'You're under arrest!' Especially following the vocal siren part, I think it sounds pleasantly like the score to a bar-room dust-up; or possibly an escape from the cops.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Depends what you mean by 'ideal', really. Meaning 'using the most/best parts contemporaneously recorded'? Or meaning 'the most likely to be historically accurate'?

If the latter, yep - the '66 version you have there looks pretty plausible (and similar to the one I posited above), except for the 'false Barnyard fade/OMP after Barnyard'. Its presence (though in crossed-out parentheses) on the Capitol tracklist means OMP is likely to be the edit actually assembled by BW in 1966 - OMP/YAMS/'Grand finale' fade - and considered (just) its own track, not a part of H&V. I'd use Barnyard as the fade, personally, but that might just be me. We enter the realm of conjecture pretty quickly here, as with the 'whistling bridge' and where exactly the tape explosion(s) would have occurred.

As for '67, I think there might be at least three pretty distinct conceptions - the 'modified '66 version', with Cantina and Barnshine instead of IIGS and Barnyard from January; the aborted 'with chorus' version from late Feb; and the final 'actual single release' version from June.

Indeed. I am going to upload my '66 mix on Vimeo based on your suggestions... Thanks!

Great - would be very keen to take a listen if you post the link when it's up!

[The Old Master Painter]

And yet no known official mix - or even many fan versions - see fit to include it.

It's in mine and always has been. 

I'll have it online in the next day or two if you're interested in hearing it.

I'd be interested in hearing yours too!

[The Old Master Painter]

Here you guys go:

https://vimeo.com/151348758

[Cam Mott]

What would be the ideal Heroes Pt. 2?

Do as a second side of the H&V single?  Do you mean "ideal" as in personal listening pleasure or most historical justified?