BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[MichaelPapelian]

In July 2006 this is what I want to know about Smile.  In September 2000 Durrie Parks E-mailed me stating she had Smile acetates and tapes.

Could someone please tell me if the tapes and acetates are safe?  Further, has anyone (Hello David Leaf) listened to them?

[Smilin Ed H]

"I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence. "

Was he not that invloved in Friends    or Wild Honey?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, I had nothing better to do, so I asked Bruce if he recalled being told about any meeting on December 7th or 8th 1966 (not being a voting member of the BB corporation, I doubt he'd have actually been asked to attend). He replied:

"Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......I don't remember anything like this happening."

I present this as recieved for your further discussion and dissection.

As you said, Bruce wasn't a voting member of the corporation (was Al?) so he wouldn't necessarily have been told. If it happened at all. In all interviews regarding Smile Brian also only mentioned the original other four. No one ever seemed to be talking about Bruce and his opinion about Smile.

Valid point, which is why I mentioned it... but he was a member of the band, and during the next vocal session (12/13/66, I think, please correct me if in error), surely he would have noticed a certain tenseness and quietly asked what was up ?

Like others here, I find it hard to grasp that no-one involved has, in the ensuing 40 years, not made even the mildest of  public allusions to this meeting and its repercussions. Also, on 12/10/66 (a Saturday) the band played a one-off gig at Michigan U.

[Andrew G. Doe]

"I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence. "

Was he not that invloved in Friebds or Wild Honey?

For Friebds, the tracks for several songs were cut at the home studio, with Brian the only BB, and producing. Others cut at ID Sound were similar. Going by the documentation, I think Brian was very involved in Friebds.

[Jeff Mason]

"I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence. "

Was he not that invloved in Friebds or Wild Honey?

For Friebds, the tracks for several songs were cut at the home studio, with Brian the only BB, and producing. Others cut at ID Sound were similar. Going by the documentation, I think Brian was very involved in Friebds.

So would Peter.  This would be part of the 10%.

[Rocker]

When were Dennis' and Carl's compositions recorded? Maybe those songs had something to do with the voting.

[Glenn Greenberg]

I think that (the Beach Boys) often acted shamefully when it came to Brian's needs.

Can you give some examples? 

[Wilsonista]

I think that (the Beach Boys) often acted shamefully when it came to Brian's needs.

Can you give some examples? 

No offense Glenn, but have you ever read any biographies of the band?

[Glenn Greenberg]

I think that (the Beach Boys) often acted shamefully when it came to Brian's needs.

Can you give some examples? 

No offense Glenn, but have you ever read any biographies of the band?

No offense taken.  And no, I haven't.  I've only been a fan for about three years, and only just now starting to build my Beach Boys library.  (Still waiting for Catch A Wave to show up from Buy.com!)

[Wilsonista]

OK.

Like Bruce Johnston said in Endless Harmony, "I think we forced Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively".   For years no major label would touch them as far as giving them a shot at making an album unless Brian was involved in a major way. Forcing that pressure on a mentally ill man who really wanted nothing to do with the band could be called by some as cruel and demeaning. 

To name just one instance.

[Glenn Greenberg]

OK.

Like Bruce Johnston said in Endless Harmony, "I think we forced Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively".   For years no major label would touch them as far as giving them a shot at making an album unless Brian was involved in a major way. Forcing that pressure on a mentally ill man who really wanted nothing to do with the band could be called by some as cruel and demeaning. 

To name just one instance.

Thanks!  But can you give me an example of what they did to compel him to stay?  I mean, if Brian said, "No, I don't want to," what did they do to make him stay involved?

[Old Rake]

Why do people have to assume that Brian was completely out of the Smile process?  Other than past hurts, does you have one scrap of evidence to show that Brian was totally passive and uninvolved?  Even ONE?

\

Of course he has, he's already stated it -- the opinions of other fans, and hs own opinion. He's already said we can't count quotes as definitive proof of anything at all, so that's really all that's left, isn't it?

[Wilsonista]

OK.

Like Bruce Johnston said in Endless Harmony, "I think we forced Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively".   For years no major label would touch them as far as giving them a shot at making an album unless Brian was involved in a major way. Forcing that pressure on a mentally ill man who really wanted nothing to do with the band could be called by some as cruel and demeaning. 

To name just one instance.

Thanks!  But can you give me an example of what they did to compel him to stay?  I mean, if Brian said, "No, I don't want to," what did they do to make him stay involved?

Carl in particular would produce Brian's songs (the Brian songs on CATP=ST are Carl productions) in Brian's style, creating the appearance that he was still involved.  As to what they used to get him to stay, that would take a book to explain.

[Jeff Mason]

OK.

Like Bruce Johnston said in Endless Harmony, "I think we forced Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively".   For years no major label would touch them as far as giving them a shot at making an album unless Brian was involved in a major way. Forcing that pressure on a mentally ill man who really wanted nothing to do with the band could be called by some as cruel and demeaning. 

To name just one instance.

Thanks!  But can you give me an example of what they did to compel him to stay?  I mean, if Brian said, "No, I don't want to," what did they do to make him stay involved?

Well, there was the infamous "give Brian a hamburger for every song he writes for us" phase of trying to manipulate Brian.  If you really want to drege up the garbage.

[Glenn Greenberg]

OK.

Like Bruce Johnston said in Endless Harmony, "I think we forced Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively".   For years no major label would touch them as far as giving them a shot at making an album unless Brian was involved in a major way. Forcing that pressure on a mentally ill man who really wanted nothing to do with the band could be called by some as cruel and demeaning. 

To name just one instance.

Thanks!  But can you give me an example of what they did to compel him to stay?  I mean, if Brian said, "No, I don't want to," what did they do to make him stay involved?

Well, there was the infamous "give Brian a hamburger for every song he writes for us" phase of trying to manipulate Brian.  If you really want to drege up the garbage.

I thought that was just Dennis, during the infamous "Cocaine Sessions."

[Wilsonista]

OK.

Like Bruce Johnston said in Endless Harmony, "I think we forced Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively".   For years no major label would touch them as far as giving them a shot at making an album unless Brian was involved in a major way. Forcing that pressure on a mentally ill man who really wanted nothing to do with the band could be called by some as cruel and demeaning. 

To name just one instance.

Thanks!  But can you give me an example of what they did to compel him to stay?  I mean, if Brian said, "No, I don't want to," what did they do to make him stay involved?

Well, there was the infamous "give Brian a hamburger for every song he writes for us" phase of trying to manipulate Brian.  If you really want to drege up the garbage.

Now it's steak. He's graduated to Big People food. 

[Dancing Bear]

Is GIOMH an example of "forcing Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively"?   

[jazzfascist]

I also think that much material of SMiLE doesn´t really work as stand-alone pieces. "Barnyard" or "I'm In Great Shape" are nice, but they REALLY start to work as parts of a larger whole, for example movements...

I think it's almost the other way around, most of the major songs on Smile work as stand alone pieces and most have been released as such. Tying them together in movements makes it sound more like medleys. There really isn't much of an organic musical flow in the Smile movements, except in the second movement and they overutilize that idea by coupling "Song For Children" with "Child". If you look at the descriptions of how the movements were created it was really more about grouping songs together that seemed to fit together musically and thematically, there was no big concept. That's why I, listening to the music, have a hard time buying, that Brian originally wanted to do a three movement piece. Doesn't mean that it probably wasn't supposed to be some kind of concept album, but more in the way that Pet Sounds or Song Cycle were concept albums.  Fragments  like "Barnyard" and "I'm In Great Shape" sounds more like they were thrown in because they were to good to just leave on the cutting floor, IMO they don't really work on the record and arent really used to their full potential. They should have put Great Shape in H&V, where it belongs and cut out the Bicycle Rider theme, whose appearance in H&V seems to originate from the Smiley period. Also I don't understand why it seems so important hang onto the idea that  Smile is a three movement opera or cantata when it doesn't work better than it does. It's like trying pin some kind of high art validity to Smile even though it probably would have worked better as a straight concept album, with some link tracks here and there.

Søren

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I'm with Søren.  The "movements" aren't movements at all, just groupings of standalone songs or fragments.  There are still songs just butt-ended up against each other.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  But to me, "movement" still implies some kind of through-composition.

[Jeff Mason]

Well, there was the infamous "give Brian a hamburger for every song he writes for us" phase of trying to manipulate Brian.  If you really want to drege up the garbage.

I thought that was just Dennis, during the infamous "Cocaine Sessions."

I think it was earlier, but it was Dennis -- who WAS a Beach Boy.  Just one example.  How about "Brian is Back", a PR exercise calculated to get media attention on Brian as producer, even though it was obvious that in 1976 Brian had no business being in the studio or on tour?  Their desire to get him healed was selfish, to get him to produce for them.

Or without thinking about getting him to produce (that was Rob's thing), the whole RockyNStan thing was pretty grim, and that was Mike's idea.

[Jeff Mason]

Is GIOMH an example of "forcing Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively"?   

Actually, Brian wanted to do that album.  The whole reason that the Smile album came out was that it was a condition of getting the contract to release GIOMH.  You may hate it but it was something that Brian apparently wanted to do.

[endofposts]

I don't know if the Beach Boys thought Brian was mentally ill.  His wife Marilyn wasn't sure of it.  If you don't know what mental illness looks like, how are you to say someone is mentally ill?  Syd Barrett's sister was interviewed shortly after his death, and she insists Syd did not suffer from any mental illness, had never been medicated for it, and was only hospitalized once, very briefly.  There's so much guilt and shame built up around such things, it wouldn't surprise me if they thought nothing in particular was wrong with Brian, other than too many drugs.  Plus, he always was eccentric, so he just became more eccentric, in their view.

Besides, the family probably thought it was good for Brian to be working.  It's not that much different than what the people around Brian think today, who continue to encourage him to keep working.  The difference, of course, is that Brian was more ill then and was not in any kind of treatment.  So it could have been detrimental at times for him to be forced to do work he didn't want to.  Or be around people he had bad experiences with.  Still, it may have given him some sense of purpose, because nothing else was.  Brian actually declined after Marilyn had the studio removed from their home.  He was also doing some writing and recording on his own in his home studio, without the Beach Boys, that was never released.  Plus, he did some work with Spring.  He worked with the Beach Boys to a fair degree up to "Sunflower."  He's all over the SOT boots from the later Capitol albums, more than reading a book such as "Heroes and Villains" would lead one to believe.  The failure of "Sunflower" for a new label probably made him less inclined to work with the Beach Boys anymore, plus he was getting sicker.

I don't think The  Beach Boys Love You was a total waste for Brian (it's one of my faves, so I'm biased), nor was 15 Big Ones, for that matter.  What was going on behind the scenes may have been bad, and maybe getting a guy who didn't like to tour to tour again was dicey.  But even Brian has gone on record as enjoying those albums. 

Brian gave one extremely negative interview when GIOMH was released.  He claimed the songs were chosen for him, and he wasn't happy with the results.  He gave different views in different interviews.  It's hard to say what Brian feels about things at times.

[jazzfascist]

Brian gave one extremely negative interview when GIOMH was released.  He claimed the songs were chosen for him, and he wasn't happy with the results.  He gave different views in different interviews.  It's hard to say what Brian feels about things at times.

He did the same in a dutch newspaper in connection with the european Smile tour, where he said he wasn't able to make any decisions and other people had to do it for him. Melinda had to tell the bewildered fans that it was one of Brian's bad days and there was bad vibes between him and the interviewer.

Søren

[Jeff Mason]

Brian gave one extremely negative interview when GIOMH was released.  He claimed the songs were chosen for him, and he wasn't happy with the results.  He gave different views in different interviews.  It's hard to say what Brian feels about things at times.

He did the same in a dutch newspaper in connection with the european Smile tour, where he said he wasn't able to make any decisions and other people had to do it for him. Melinda had to tell the bewildered fans that it was one of Brian's bad days and there was bad vibes between him and the interviewer.

Søren

And why is that hard to believe?  I say things I don't mean when I am in a snit. 

[Bill Tobelman]

Quote from: Bill Tobelman on Today at 02:15:17 PM
The 3 movements of BWPS seem likely to be what Brian had in mind for SMiLE originally if one considers SMiLE to be representative of Brian's religious/spiritual experience. There are a number of quotes which imply a 3 part experience. There's the "birth & death & rebirth" summation of BW's life in the Siegel article as well as the "moment of clear light" experience in the Surfing Saints article which suggests a before/clear light/after scenario, and there are the accounts of other mystical experiences which obviously follow the before/mystical experience/after pattern.

If one applies this to BWPS, the second "cycle of life" movement would correspond to the "clear light" ego-death part of the religious experience. After this would emerge the new spiritually reborn person.

"Song For Children" would then correspond (as in the Surfing Saints article) to Brian being alone on the beach, looking up at the sky. This may be why one of the titles for "Song for Children" was "Look." And perhaps Brian decided to run on the beach during this part of the experience. That would perhaps yield the title "I Ran." And if this part of the total religious experience was followed directly by Brian's "enlightenment" then perhaps it would appear that the exercise (running) actually aided in producing the spiritual experience, and this would lead Brian to believe that fitness helps in promoting the spiritual experience.

Andrew G. Doe said;

Interesting notion Bill, but a bit too top-heavy with "ifs", "maybes" and "perhapes" for my total comfort. Plus we don't know what the lyric to "I Ran" was (do we ?).

Andrew, I'm sure you picked up on the idea that if Brian made this sort of connection between fitness & the religious experience then that would pretty much explain yet another one of Brian's "obsessions" during SMiLE. We already know that laughter can prompt the spiritual experience (Vosse), and that vegetables & heath are an important ingrediant in spiritual enlightenment (Wilson), and now if we go way out on a limb...Brian's fitness "obsession" may very well be another part of the spiritual thing.

Sorry about using so many qualified statements. Just trying to present an "interesting notion" that fits perfectly into the big picture.