BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[Smilin Ed H]

"If Brian was routinely dropping old best friends for new best friends..."   

I had always thought that BW was dropped by the new best friends when it was obvious things weren't going as planned.

[Rocker]

Just one question that's not totally adding to the discussion, but is it know what Van dyke thought about "Fire" when he first heard it?

[Cam Mott]

Amen, MBE.

Re. Redwood:  I'd love to see a copy of their Brother contract because I'll bet it was just as Hutton has said, Redwood had a contract to do singles but they wanted to do an album.  Brother couldn't/didn't even put out their own album, Wild Honey, at that very time. 

Jimmy Lockert thought Brian was in control of SS, WH and Friends; I had the impression Desper feels the same, does he?  One day I hope we have the memories of Bill Halverson of that period. 

I wonder what Mike's recollection of all this today would be? [doe-eyes in Melinda's direction, again] Or Bruce or Al's?

[Old Rake]

You'd have a hard time getting Bruce or Al to talk, but I bet Mike would wax rhapsodic, after protesting that he "wasn't the right guy to talk to" about it.

[Dancing Bear]

If there was this meeting in December 7 or 8, 1966, I guess at the end Brian, Carl, Mike, Dennis and Al made a blood pact that nothing would transpire, ever. Van Dyke, Anderle, Marylin, Derek Taylor, Paul Williams, Siegel, Hutton never commented about the three movement album being voted down in a meeting. If something BIG like this had happened and hit Brian hard as Peter is saying, at least one of them would have told us about it in the last 40 years. And at least half of those people have said very harsh things about the Beach Boys to documentary film makers and balding punks.

I mean, we all read about the incident in front of the Inside Pop cameras. Which may have happened or not, it doesn't matter. It was transpired with gory details. Why would a 'meeting that became pretty brutal' have been such a secret for 40 years that only insiders knows about?

PS: This 3 movement stuff is overrated. What's the big deal in having transitions between the tracks, does it place Smile above pop music? They are still 3 minutes pop songs after all. The last time I checked everybody and their dog loathed Thick as a Brick and Supper's Ready. 

[JRauch]

This 3 movement stuff is overrated. What's the big deal in having transitions between the tracks, does it place Smile above pop music?

Uhhmm...in my opinion: yes

[Old Rake]

Okay, why?

[JRauch]

First of all, it´s a very revolutionary idea. Maybe not in 2004, but certainly in 1966/67. Just look at what a big deal Sgt. Pepper was. There we have the title-track flowing into the second track, or we have a reprise etc. and everyone raved about how it changed the way people look at albums. Now imagine a complete album that way...

I also think that much material of SMiLE doesn´t really work as stand-alone pieces. "Barnyard" or "I'm In Great Shape" are nice, but they REALLY start to work as parts of a larger whole, for example movements...

[JRauch]

Another thing:

Jeff Mason explained it in his essay much better than I could, but by grouping the songs into three movements, Brian and Van Dyke created a form of "superstructure" (intended or not), that just wouldn´t be there if you would stick 12 songs together.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I do not believe that the group was happy with the growing difficulty of performing the music onstage, and I think that they communicated this to Brian when they came off tour in 1966. Brian has said this to me and to other people as well.

I recently got the opportunity to sit in on an interview with Al, and the subject of the increasing difficulty of performing the material came up.  While he said point blank that it was very hard to do live, he clearly relished thosed days and counted it a exciting challenge to work up live versions difficult material.  He also made it pretty clear that Carl felt the same way, in my opinion.

[Peter Reum]

When I spoke to Brian on a couple of occasions, he also said the group was excited about the receptions they were getting, but upset about the criticism they were getting about not sounding like they did on the records. He said Carl specifically asked that the music be arranged so that the group could do it justice  That is why Brian said he went to Michigan in October. The complexity of the music was challenging, but they did not like the reactions they were getting.

The three movement concept in my mind is a big deal because it was the gestation of Smile. It was tossed out, and when Brian set out to reown the concept, he returned to it. For that reason alone, it is huge historically.

As for Lockert, I also spoke to him, years before Cam Mott did, and he said Carl played a huge role in keeping those sessions going. What you folks don't understand that I HAVE spoken to most of these people, either by correspondence or in person. I am not just pulling this stuff out of my butt and speculating..

I think there is an important concept to remember here, which is that as these people age, they are going to try to put the best possible spin on their roles in this history. Why is this a big deal? We get statements from principles in the situation denying things they are on record saying 15 or 25 years ago.

As for MBE's assertion that Brian was deeply involved through Surfs Up? I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I do not believe that the group was happy with the growing difficulty of performing the music onstage, and I think that they communicated this to Brian when they came off tour in 1966. Brian has said this to me and to other people as well.

I recently got the opportunity to sit in on an interview with Al, and the subject of the increasing difficulty of performing the material came up.  While he said point blank that it was very hard to do live, he clearly relished thosed days and counted it a exciting challenge to work up live versions difficult material.  He also made it pretty clear that Carl felt the same way, in my opinion.

I'm sure that Al and Carl, and probably Bruce, did enjoy the challenge of working up live versions of difficult material.

But the overriding question that they were facing at that time was, would their AUDIENCE ENJOY hearing it?

Did you ever look at the audience in those old black and white vidoes from 1964-66?  The majority of the audience seem to be teenage screaming kids. They look so young. I wonder what their reaction would've been to following Surfin' USA with Vegetables? Or to follow Little Deuce Coupe with Heroes And Villains?  Now that I look at it, that would've been pretty cool!

Anyway, didn't the Beatles have a similar problem which forced them off the road. Not so much the material, but screaming kids who weren't interested so much in LISTENING to the music. It's 20/20 hindsight, but I can certainly see why they (The Beach Boys) would have reservations about playing the new stuff live.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

The idea of the band circa '67 trying to perform Surf's Up or Cabinessence makes me shudder. Can you imagine the reaction to THAT?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence.

You're not saying that they lied are you?

Just kidding, Peter. Excuse my sarcasm, but when I tried to make a similar point (about covering for Brian) a few pages back, I was referred to as cynical, foolish, and condescending.

[kreen]

Alright, I've been reading theses forums for years, and I have never registered until now, but I thought I'd add a few points that certainly help me see clearer in the whole thing :

1 - There are two huge forces at play that are bound to have an effect on all the information that is given or repeated regarding BWPS :

a) from a marketing and media-friendly point of view, "pop genius Brian Wilson overcomes his demons and finishes long-lost masterpiece" is sellable. It works. It's good. But "little-known indie-rocker Darian Sahanaja puts together old session tapes based on fan-established theories and asks Brian Wilson to lend his voice to them" doesn't work. So anything that comes from the record company, from Brian Wilson's entourage or from the people who want the record to be a success will be influenced by that.

b) most fans are emotional, and want to believe the first version above, and not the second, which is so much less satisfying.

2 - Ok, the thing about quotes. A quote is something that somebody once said to a certain person, in a certain context. It's not the absolute truth. Think of everything you said today, and think of how trustworthy it would be if somebody extracted from it one line and used it again in 10 years later in a different context. When it comes to Brian Wilson producing BWPS or not, instead of trying to find the truth based on quotes, let's analyse the released product. Is there anything on it that seems to imply than today's Brian Wilson, based on all we know about him, made any impact? If he really was in charge, why is everything mostly a note-for-note remake of the old tapes? Wouldn't a man in charge of his own work add of substract to it, change arrangements, make surprising additions? If the whole record sounds like a fan-made compilation of the old bootlegs, with lyrics added to fit the existing melodic lines, it probably is.

3 - We BB fans tend to think of all the people in the BB universe as either heroes or villains. Somehow Van Dyke Parks became a saint. Now, I'm sure he's an honest man who wouldn't participate in something that is clearly a rip-off or an awful piece of crap, but from there to assume that surely BW was in charge of BWPS, because VDP wouldn't have taken part in it otherwise, is to project our own purist-fanboy unrealistic ideals on people who maybe just thought : "hey, this is good music, it'll end up a fun album, and it makes sense financially, so let's do it".

[Peter Reum]

Doing family therapy everyday for years has convinced me that people want to be thought of as valued and important and "good." I have no objections to these folks changing their perspectives, because with age comes perspective. Sometimes the wisdom we think we have at 25 we realize at 50 was foolishness.

My challenge in family therapy is try to look at the events recounted from each person's perspective, and to attempt to grasp their unique point of view. Brian's is easy for me to get because I work with people like him daily. It can be more difficult with other people. But the Wilson family is a pretty classic set of adult children of alcoholic situation. I think the softness of all three Wilson brothers, for example, comes from their mother, whose positive influence is rarely discussed. Brian, Carl, and Dennis all have a deep and sensitive side to their music that grabs people and touches their hearts. I think that came from Audree's influence. She is pretty much the classic pattern of a woman who unwittingly married into a fairly disturbed situation. That she plowed through it and tried to teach her sons spirituality is important, because it is that music''s spirituality that touches many of us today and in the past.

One last quick point before I go to work...in reference to Kreen's point about Van Dyke. He certainly does NOT think he is a saint in this process. He feels quite a load of regret for not going to bat for Brian and more vigorously defending his lyrical ideas back in the day. His sense of integrity is such that he would NOT get involved with Smile 2004, if Brian were not the one having final say over the project. The tracks of Smile were preserved because they were worth saving. Brian feels they are his best arrangements ever. Surprises? There are a few dozen of them in the finished Smile, and I for one was delighted, moved,  and surprised when I heard them.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Alright, I've been reading theses forums for years, and I have never registered until now, but I thought I'd add a few points that certainly help me see clearer in the whole thing :

1 - There are two huge forces at play that are bound to have an effect on all the information that is given or repeated regarding BWPS :

a) from a marketing and media-friendly point of view, "pop genius Brian Wilson overcomes his demons and finishes long-lost masterpiece" is sellable. It works. It's good. But "little-known indie-rocker Darian Sahanaja puts together old session tapes based on fan-established theories and asks Brian Wilson to lend his voice to them" doesn't work. So anything that comes from the record company, from Brian Wilson's entourage or from the people who want the record to be a success will be influenced by that.

b) most fans are emotional, and want to believe the first version above, and not the second, which is so much less satisfying.

2 - Ok, the thing about quotes. A quote is something that somebody once said to a certain person, in a certain context. It's not the absolute truth. Think of everything you said today, and think of how trustworthy it would be if somebody extracted from it one line and used it again in 10 years later in a different context. When it comes to Brian Wilson producing BWPS or not, instead of trying to find the truth based on quotes, let's analyse the released product. Is there anything on it that seems to imply than today's Brian Wilson, based on all we know about him, made any impact? If he really was in charge, why is everything mostly a note-for-note remake of the old tapes? Wouldn't a man in charge of his own work add of substract to it, change arrangements, make surprising additions? If the whole record sounds like a fan-made compilation of the old bootlegs, with lyrics added to fit the existing melodic lines, it probably is.

3 - We BB fans tend to think of all the people in the BB universe as either heroes or villains. Somehow Van Dyke Parks became a saint. Now, I'm sure he's an honest man who wouldn't participate in something that is clearly a rip-off or an awful piece of crap, but from there to assume that surely BW was in charge of BWPS, because VDP wouldn't have taken part in it otherwise, is to project our own purist-fanboy unrealistic ideals on people who maybe just thought : "hey, this is good music, it'll end up a fun album, and it makes sense financially, so let's do it".

Excellent post.

[Jeff Mason]

I suppose you can convince yourself of lots of things, but having heard nearly 90% of the tape from those years, I can tell you that the Beach Boys after Smiley Smile did a very good job of convincing the record companies that Brian was there, when he wasn't. Why? Because he was mentally ill with untreated bipolar, and because he was full tilt in cocaine dependence.

You're not saying that they lied are you?

Just kidding, Peter. Excuse my sarcasm, but when I tried to make a similar point (about covering for Brian) a few pages back, I was referred to as cynical, foolish, and condescending.

Actually, I would say that.  And there is a diff -- the BB needed to use Brian to get a record contract, whereas Brian really doesn't need to do anything today.

[Sheriff John Stone]

the BB needed to use Brian to get a record contract, whereas Brian really doesn't need to do anything today.

Right on, Jeff! Brian really doesn't need to do anything today. Darian and Jeff and VDP and Melinda and others will do it for him. Other than sing of course. And sometimes they even do that for him.

But back to the issue, did the group lie about Brian, even it if was for a "good" purpose?

Great post, Kreen!

[Bicyclerider]

"If Van Dyke stopped going to sessions, and he did, I don't think it was because of Brian's behaviour at the sessions specifically."

Van Dyke was quoted in Gaines' book as saying Brian's behavior regarding the Fire sessions (calling a session, then waiting outside in a limo while the musicians were waiting, and finally cancelling it because the "vibrations" weren't right) put him off going to sessions.  Nevertheless, we have session logs that place Van Dyke at several Heroes sessions after the Fire sessions, so his "boycotting" of the sessions didn't last for more than about six weeks.

[Jeff Mason]

the BB needed to use Brian to get a record contract, whereas Brian really doesn't need to do anything today.

Right on, Jeff! Brian really doesn't need to do anything today. Darian and Jeff and VDP and Melinda and others will do it for him. Other than sing of course. And sometimes they even do that for him.

But back to the issue, did the group lie about Brian, even it if was for a "good" purpose?

First point -- you KNOW what I mean -- Brian has no financial incentive to record or perform.  The group had major incentives to have Brian produce and write.  So Mike/Al/Carl had a financial reason to participate in deception whereas nobody's livelihood depended upon Smile.  And yes, If you re-read my post, I WAS saying that the group lied.  I think that they often acted shamefully when it came to Brian's needs.

Why are you so cynical when it comes to Brian?  Do you REALLY think that he is a brain dead vegetable?  Do you really think that he doesn't care about what happens in his name?  Did you really watch BD (as manipulated as in parts it admittedly was) and not see a healing process begin to happen and Brian be far more coherent than he had been on any camera in almost 40 years?  And compare Brian on IJWMFTT to compare -- it was post Landy, Melinda was there, and he still seemed shell shocked.  BD showed a new man (and that can't be faked by Darian or by anyone).

Why do people have to assume that Brian was completely out of the Smile process?  Other than past hurts, does you have one scrap of evidence to show that Brian was totally passive and uninvolved?  Even ONE?

[Bill Tobelman]

The 3 movements of BWPS seem likely to be what Brian had in mind for SMiLE originally if one considers SMiLE to be representative of Brian's religious/spiritual experience. There are a number of quotes which imply a 3 part experience. There's the "birth & death & rebirth" summation of BW's life in the Siegel article as well as the "moment of clear light" experience in the Surfing Saints article which suggests a before/clear light/after scenario, and there are the accounts of other mystical experiences which obviously follow the before/mystical experience/after pattern.

If one applies this to BWPS, the second "cycle of life" movement would correspond to the "clear light" ego-death part of the religious experience. After this would emerge the new spiritually reborn person.

"Song For Children" would then correspond (as in the Surfing Saints article) to Brian being alone on the beach, looking up at the sky. This may be why one of the titles for "Song for Children" was "Look." And perhaps Brian decided to run on the beach during this part of the experience. That would perhaps yield the title "I Ran." And if this part of the total religious experience was followed directly by Brian's "enlightenment" then perhaps it would appear that the exercise (running) actually aided in producing the spiritual experience, and this would lead Brian to believe that fitness helps in promoting the spiritual experience.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, I had nothing better to do, so I asked Bruce if he recalled being told about any meeting on December 7th or 8th 1966 (not being a voting member of the BB corporation, I doubt he'd have actually been asked to attend). He replied:

"Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......I don't remember anything like this happening."

I present this as recieved for your further discussion and dissection.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The 3 movements of BWPS seem likely to be what Brian had in mind for SMiLE originally if one considers SMiLE to be representative of Brian's religious/spiritual experience. There are a number of quotes which imply a 3 part experience. There's the "birth & death & rebirth" summation of BW's life in the Siegel article as well as the "moment of clear light" experience in the Surfing Saints article which suggests a before/clear light/after scenario, and there are the accounts of other mystical experiences which obviously follow the before/mystical experience/after pattern.

If one applies this to BWPS, the second "cycle of life" movement would correspond to the "clear light" ego-death part of the religious experience. After this would emerge the new spiritually reborn person.

"Song For Children" would then correspond (as in the Surfing Saints article) to Brian being alone on the beach, looking up at the sky. This may be why one of the titles for "Song for Children" was "Look." And perhaps Brian decided to run on the beach during this part of the experience. That would perhaps yield the title "I Ran." And if this part of the total religious experience was followed directly by Brian's "enlightenment" then perhaps it would appear that the exercise (running) actually aided in producing the spiritual experience, and this would lead Brian to believe that fitness helps in promoting the spiritual experience.

Interesting notion Bill, but a bit too top-heavy with "ifs", "maybes" and "perhapes" for my total comfort. Plus we don't know what the lyric to "I Ran" was (do we ?).

[Rocker]

Well, I had nothing better to do, so I asked Bruce if he recalled being told about any meeting on December 7th or 8th 1966 (not being a voting member of the BB corporation, I doubt he'd have actually been asked to attend). He replied:

"Hmmmmmmmmmmmm......I don't remember anything like this happening."

I present this as recieved for your further discussion and dissection.

As you said, Bruce wasn't a voting member of the corporation (was Al?) so he wouldn't necessarily have been told. If it happened at all. In all interviews regarding Smile Brian also only mentioned the original other four. No one ever seemed to be talking about Bruce and his opinion about Smile.