BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[Micha]

Two were sequenced in 1966.

The same way as they are sequenced now in fact?

[Cam Mott]

What seems odd to me is that the group had been notified around the 3rd of December that they were the best vocal of '66 in NME [NME] and GV had earned Disc & Music Echo's Silver Platter in England while in the US GV, with movements, had been #2 for 3 weeks and was headed to #1 on the 10th [Billboard].

[Jeff Mason]

What seems odd to me is that the group had been notified around the 3rd of December that they were the best vocal of '66 in NME [NME] and GV had earned Disc & Music Echo's Silver Platter in England while in the US GV, with movements, had been #2 for 3 weeks and was headed to #1 on the 10th [Billboard].

That doesn't meant that the BB liked it.  Based upon their reactions I hear on the first live shows of it, their feelings were not one of amazement over the great sounds that they were hearing.  I could easily see them thinking that they got lucky (not to mention that Mike wrote all the lyrics which made it more palatable).

[Sheriff John Stone]

Peter Reum stated that THE GROUP vetoed the idea of the 3 movement opera/cantata - or however you want to refer to it - and elected to go with the standard 12 separate tracks.

But somebody else made the point (correctly, I believe) that a 3 movement opera would not fit in a two-sided album format. This theory is easier to accept.

It is common sense that Brian and Van Dyke Parks were familiar with the constraints of the album/lp format. They had to know, from the start, how many minutes and how many songs would fit on one side of an album. Knowing that 3 movements WOULD NOT fit on 2 sides- simply math and logistics, 2 doesn't go into 3, unless you mess with lineup, but that would compromise the art  - why would they even start with the idea?

[Bicyclerider]

Yeah, three movements would go into 2 sides
side one:  movements 1 and 2
side two: movement 3

This sort of spliltting of a work happened all the time in classical music records.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Yeah, three movements would go into 2 sides
side one:  movements 1 and 2
side two: movement 3

This sort of spliltting of a work happened all the time in classical music records.

Yes, it could've been laid out the way you displayed above, but I again raise the question about the available minutes.

If the total album was between 45-47 minutes (using BWPS as the template - I know it's not absolutely the way Brian would've made it 67-67), it's reasonable to say that Movements 1 and 2 would've clocked in at around 30 minutes combined.  Would've 30 minutes fit on one side of an album? I ask because I don't really know.  And also, would Brian and VDP (and the record company) be happy with the lopsidedness?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Would've 30 minutes fit on one side of an album? I ask because I don't really know.  And also, would Brian and VDP (and the record company) be happy with the lopsidedness?

Pet Sounds was the band's longest album at that time and that clocked in at about 35.35 total.

In purely technical terms, yes, you could fit 30 minutes of music on one side of an LP - if it was folk, or acoustic, not the kind of dense compositions Brian was producing. The fidelity loss towards the end of the side would be catastrophic, something Brian would have been well aware of. I don't doubt for a minute that he'd originally envisaged a 3 movement piece, but my opinion - and it is just that - would be that he rapidly canned it as being unworkable in the strict technical sense.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Double post. Rats

[Old Rake]

If you have 12 banded tracks, even if they're arranged thematically, they're very much able to fit on two sides, even if one of the movements needs to get divided in two.

I'm am as certain as can be that certain tracks on Smile were meant to fade out or come to a definite conclusion -- "Heroes and Villains" was unequivocally going to fade -- it fades in virtually all incarnations, beginning with a version that likely ended with "Barnyard" (which fades) and ending with the single version. Cabinessence obviously fades. Worms fades. Child comes to a conclusion. Wonderful is up in the air. Wind Chimes fades. Vegetables has multiple fades recorded for it. Surf's Up fades, most likely -- I guess we're not sure, but I'll bank money on it. Fire comes to a definite conclusion.

No tracks were recorded to link songs together, and the songs were not structured so as to readily provide for easy linking, which is why Darian and Van Dyke and Brian had to write new linking material and/or restructure the songs to allow for linking, i.e. stripping off the fades.

However, its obvious that at least SOME of the songs are grouped thematically. Right? I mean, for years we had the "Americana" and "Elements" thing pegged, at least kinda. There's a lotta songs about old-timey Americana, and there's a lotta songs about The Elements, or pieces we think are connected with "The Elements." Then there's just some other songs about other stuff -- "Child," "Wonderful," "Surf's Up" -- that can all be kinda grouped together. Right? I mean, right?

From those thematic groupings, we can assume one of two things:

- either Brian and Van Dyke were just coincidentally writing about similar topics across groupings of songs without having any direct aim in mind OR

- they were deliberately grouping songs together.

Either way, we end up with groupings of songs, and I can see it very likely that it probably occurred to them -- "Hey, we have a lotta songs about old-timey America. We should put them together."

I don't know why that's so hard to fathom for some people! -- its not like the songs are unconnected at all, they are definitely connected both thematically and occasionally melodically.

[Ron]

Can you imagine trying to fit 30 minutes onto one side, and one of the songs is 'cabinessence' ?  All of that stuff behind 'who ran' would turn to mud.  I can imagine how crappy that would sound with the grooves thin.  Yuck.  (not saying they were trying to do that, just saying they wouldn't have).

[Andrew G. Doe]

If you have 12 banded tracks, even if they're arranged thematically, they're very much able to fit on two sides, even if one of the movements needs to get divided in two.

I think the point in question is that, according to what Peter reported what Brian said in 1981, the original concept was three movements, that is three long, continuous pieces of music per BWPS. 12 tracks was the norm back then. No problem there. BWPS in 1967 ? I'm seriously dubious it could have been done, at least in a technical sense.

[Peter Reum]

People in this thread tend to focus on the artistic side of things and forget that American Entertainment was a BUSINESS employing an entire family. These 3 brothers, their cousin, and Al were all sustained by a recording contract and personal appearances. Their father and mother published their songs.

Brian was fairly avant garde in his commercial instincts, and also SOLD records. What I love about Jules Siegel's piece from 1968 is he recognizes this immediately. He tals about GENIUSES, people who are hip, avant garde, and who sell records.

Brian had an idea. He wanted to take the Beach Boys into fm album recording. He saw it coming, correctly intuited that albums would be the new sales vehicle for music in the late 60s, and did Pet Sounds.

He came up with an idea to do an album on humor and music to God. He called it Dumb Angel. He conceived it in movements. He engaged Van Dyke Parks to help write lyrics. Van Dyke introduced the idea of a theme of moving across America from Plymouth Rock to Hawaii. The theme of Americana was born.

Brian was deeply concerned with his family and how they interacted. He saw the insanity first hand and recognized it as such. He also was impressed by how some families could function "normally" and be loving, and how some were like his...he saw how from generation to generation these things get passed down He wanted to change his family's manner of interacting...in his generation. He wanted his kids to grow up feeling loved unconditionally. This is how Cycle of Life came into creation.

The Third Movement was more troublesome, and how to express that feeling of Spiritual Searching and thirst quenching was more difficult. There is a reason it was not done. In early December buildings burned down in Hollywood, and in Brian's amphetamine addicted mind, that meant he felt he was screwing with primal spiritual forces he had no business screwing with. Scratch the Elements.

Brian has told me and Domenic Priore there were movements. He told me three. he told Domenic there were two. That would make sense if he scratched the Elements. That Van Dyke would not necessarily know possible sequences is plausible. Brian as a producer often kept these options close to himself for fear of his ideas being copied. I don't think he mistrusted Van, but I don't think he trusted some others that Van knew.

The business meetings were not recorded. The votes are in the memories of those who were there. Several people have described the meetings of American Entertainment to me as "brutal." Those same people describe the meetings after Pet Sounds did not supposedly "sell" as "especially brutal." There was a struggle for the direction of the family BUSINESS. Brian lost.

Brian then, as a family business member, tried to go on as best he could, feeling untrusted, unsupported, and isolated. Whether those feelings were what actually happened, they were HIS perceptions and HIS reality, and he acted on them. The Beach Boys did not realize the seriousness of his addiction, his growing untreated bipolar illness, or his sensitivity to their "minor course corrections" they thought they had instituted. Brian saw them as a coup d'etat.

As time went on, Brian's condition worsened. As do many families, they thought by going along (smoking hash with him) they could modify his behavior. Thousands of families do this every day. The result was more addled confusion, and a stoner's insider album, Smiley Smile.

Brian, slowly getting more and more addicted, gave up trying to work with The Beach Boys because they got more and more demanding, and controlling, which is also characteristic of addicted families. When they tried to control his output, he tried to produce Redwood. They cut him off financially, from using AEI money to produce acts outside the BBs, and Brian in turn stopped working on Wild Honey, including several works in progress, like Can't Wait Too Long and Cool Cool Water. Carl stepped in and helped finish the album, possibly with Bruce.

Brian got over his snit, came back to try one more album with the group, Friends (which is why it is titled that title), and actually did a few tracks, with Carl again finishing what Brian left undone.

By this time Brian has cross addicted to cocaine, and had MUCH less of an attention span. His ability to focus was impaired, and hsi ability to concentrate was shot. He broke down, and was insttutionalized. The psychotropics began. He was misdiagnosed as schizophrenic when he was in fact Type 2 bipolar (schizoaffective).

From there, things went down the toilet, because Brian would not stay on the meds he was prescribed, rightly perceiving they were not helping. Instead, he would go out and score cocaine, which would let him feel normal for 30 minutes until the feeling went away.  Brian correctly got the reputation of not being  able to finish anything. This is because when the cocaine wore off the horrible, crippling feelings of depression returned. That's where Til I Die came from.

[Bicyclerider]

Dylan often had sides close to 30 minutes, even with the "dense" music of Highway 61 and Bringing It All Back Home.  It certainly could be done, but there is no doubt sound quality would suffer on the last track.

But we're assuming that the "movements" and tracks and sequence are the same as BWPS, and I'm still not convinced that even if there WERE movements planned and tentatively sequenced in Brian's mind, that those movements and sequences would be the same.  Movement two could have been shorter, for example (no Surf's Up, with Surf's Up taking GV place at the end of side 2, just as one example of a way the movements could work on a 2 sided LP).

[Artie]

Peter - thanks for that great post.

[Peter Reum]

I don't necessarily believe that the movments contemplated in 1966 by Brian are those of 2004 Smile. I believe the Smile of 1966 was designed to be a studio creation.

The Smile as finished in 2004 is obviously designed for live performance, and as such, is far closer to Rhapsody in Blue than 1966 Smile would have been as modified by The BBs. I think Brian rewound his idea to pre BB input, and redid Smile in 2004 according to his original idea, not necessarily his original sequence. I think he HAD to do this psychologically to reown the concept and the album as HIS, before the BBs nixed the concept of movements and Carl proposed 12 tracks....

[Nathan Snyder]

Peter.  Thanks again for your time in posting. You sum it all up very well.  For people with the never ending need to find more info regarding how much input Brian really had in BWPS, I feel we've never hit hard enough on Darian instead of Brian.  We can try tirelessly to contact Brian and his friends about the 2004 project, but isn't there more in depth talk with Darian to see what he has to say.  I wonder if time will permit him to speak total truth on what happened.  He's an intelligent guy who I'd not have a problem believing if asked the right questions.  Maybe he was told not to indulge too much info to outside sources on how much Brian did, but maybe down the road it will be easiler.

[Jim McShane]

Peter.  Thanks again for your time in posting. You sum it all up very well.  For people with the never ending need to find more info regarding how much input Brian really had in BWPS, I feel we've never hit hard enough on Darian instead of Brian.  We can try tirelessly to contact Brian and his friends about the 2004 project, but isn't there more in depth talk with Darian to see what he has to say.  I wonder if time will permit him to speak total truth on what happened.  He's an intelligent guy who I'd not have a problem believing if asked the right questions.  Maybe he was told not to indulge too much info to outside sources on how much Brian did, but maybe down the road it will be easiler.

I'd alos like to hear what Paul von Mertens has to say. He had a huge role in the orchestration of PetSounds (as did Bob Lizik and Jim Hines on the rhythm parts), and he had a significant role in BWPS too.

I have the feeling that Darian knows a lot but will say only a little. I think his ability to be discrete in the midst of all this is one of the things that leads Brian to trust him.

[Peter Reum]

Now that some of the issues about Smi,e 66 are clearing up, I'll try to address Darian. He is a man who saw his function as therapeutic, that is part of a therapeutic milieu, a TEAM designed to help Brian.

When you work as part of a therapeutic treatment team, which is what Smile 2004 was about, a project outcome and who did what is secondary to the OUTCOME of the therapy. The designated outcome for Bran's therapeutic milieu is his improvement to a maximal degree given his acknowledged mental illness, and with luck, a GREAT album as well.

Darian functioned, for lack of a better term, as a Music Therapist for the period of Smile 2004's rebirth. He did not function as a collaborator so much as a facilitator, providing a safe therapeutic environmment for Brian to REOWN and finish Smile.

It could not have succeeded had they told Brian he was finishing Smile 1966. The Beach Boys had "perverted" that Smile in Brian's mind and heart. His beloved music had to be reclaimed through a new medium, live performance.

Darian served as a mirror, idea generator, friend, secretary, and mess cleaner upper. This requires suspension of EGO, and allowing the process to flow and govern itself, with occasional adjustments or jumpstarts. Darian, a humble man, was perfect.

I can tell you all that this is the way psychotherapy functions in an ideal manner, as long as the patient WANTS to work and change. Brian did, but it was terrifying for him. He is emotionally VERY STRONG. He came through.

Smile 2004 was a artistic triumph because the people Brian needed on his therapeutic TEAM put their EGOS aside and all worked for the same outcome. Darian's role as that of almost a Music Therapist, was critical. I doubt if he will say too much ore publically. Just as therapists do not discuss case details openly, I doubt he will either. But if he ever wants a job as a Music Therapist, I'd hire him in a New York minute.  

 

[Big Bri]

Peter,
   Thank you for that extremely concise encapsulation of the BWPS story.That's the closest to making the most sense of anything I've seen written.Excellent piece of  work Peter.
Brian

[Sheriff John Stone]

I feel we've never hit hard enough on Darian instead of Brian.  We can try tirelessly to contact Brian and his friends about the 2004 project, but isn't there more in depth talk with Darian to see what he has to say.  I wonder if time will permit him to speak total truth on what happened.  He's an intelligent guy who I'd not have a problem believing if asked the right questions.  Maybe he was told not to indulge too much info to outside sources on how much Brian did, but maybe down the road it will be easiler.

I agree, Nathan. Darian is THE man who would know. But, in the world of rock and roll, and especially Brian Wilson, you can never REALLY be sure. Here's a hypothetical:

Just say the (late, great) Syd Barrett moved next door to you. And every day he ignored your casual wave or "Good morning". And you observed that his garden was really a mess of weeds, rodents, and bugs. And his famous bike was actually parked on the back porch, rusting away, rarely used.

Now, a rock journalist is writing an article about Syd, and gets permission from Syd's family to contact you for an interview. When he asks about the Syd you observed, are you going to tell the truth? Or would you say "Oh, yeah, Syd, a real friendly guy. He's an excellent gardener, you know. And he's in good shape, has his own bike that he rides, just like his song". To be honest, that's probably what I would say.

Before I tie this in to Darian, let me say that Darian is a true hero in Brian's story. I have nothing but praise for his work with Brian.  I don't know him, obviously, but he appears to be a down to earth, open, friendly, and HONEST man. I do not question his integrity in any way. But...

When somebody is interviewing Darian about his work with Brian, he has to be very aware of the consequences of what he says. Remember, Darian was/is a fan, and he knows all about Tony Asher, Don Was, Joe Thomas, and Andy Paley. Maybe Darian measures his words, maybe there are details he leaves out, and should leave out. There are things that are none of our business. Maybe he's protective of Brian. I know I would be.

Darian isn't going to say to himself, "Gee, I think I'll ruin my relationship with Brian Wilson and tell this journalist everything I know". Now, before somebody responds that Darian's interviews are better than Joe Blow's opinion on the Smiley Smile message board - yes, of course they are. And before somebody accuses me of insulting or questioning Darian's integrity - no, I'm not. What I'm saying is that you can't always believe everything you read, no matter who the source is. There is nothing wrong with taking EVERYTHING into consideration and forming your OWN opinion. Basically, isn't that what we all do, unless you base your opinion entirely on what has been written.

[Old Rake]

In other words: discount what people say, and just make up your opinion based on nothing whatsoever.

[Sheriff John Stone]

In other words: discount what people say, and just make up your opinion based on nothing whatsoever.

Did you actually READ what I said. Obviously not. If you did, you would read the following quote, "There is nothing wrong with taking EVERYTHING into consideration and forming your OWN opinion".

Did you see the word "EVERYTHING"? I even put it in all capitals! If you did, then why would you respond "just make up your opinion based on nothing whatsoever"?

[Jeff Mason]

Do you have any quotes from anyone involved in the making of Smile 2004 that claims that had nothing to do with its construction save signing off on it and that Darian did all of the work alone?  What sources are there for that?  All sources involved say that Brian was an integral part.  Cynicism and expectations from previous letdowns are the only sources I can see saying that this was a hack job.  If you believe it is instead of the sources saying otherwise, what part of "everything" are you believing?  Objective evidence or cynic outsiders?

[andy]

expectations from previous letdowns

i definitely disagree with the opinion, but that sounds like objective evidence too, to me.



Like has been said previously, Brian is responsible for over 90% of the input of BWPS based on his writing alone. Brian actively remembered some old melodies, put them to sequence and called VDP for help finishing some of the unfinished stuff.

[Nathan Snyder]

I'm happy to agree with the statement from Brian's camp which is to say that Brian did most of the work but it would NOT have happened without Darian and his trusty computer.   They haven't ever denied Darian's enormous contributions and I personally believe that once again, Peter had a nice summation of the general events above.  I feel lucky that SMiLE 04 happened and appreciate the many pieces of the puzzle that happened to fall into place to make it happen like Brian meeting Darian and the rest of his ensemble along with the Stockholm strings to having Van Dyke agree to rejoin etc etc.  Its seems too difficult to really happen, but it did. And to Brian's credit, everything that happened didn't fall on their front porch step. Melinda and Brian worked and pushed for these things to happen and the result was very good.