BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[Cam Mott]

Andrew, keep in mind Peter Reum's claim.  Once Smile was out there, people began sharing things that they had been sitting on for years as secrets.  Peter claims that Brian told him in 1981 that Smile was to be a three movement piece as conceived, a la (in Brian's way of thinking) Rhapsody in Blue.  Make of that what you will.  Peter is no liar.  For my money, I see the initial concept (in summer 1966) as a three movement (or some type of movement structure) edited down to a 12 track list by December because there was no practical way to make a 3 movement piece on an LP.

Did anybody save that post and if so could you repost it?

[Peter Reum]

I think this rehashing is interestng f the latecomers. Yes, Brian did tell me in 1981 that Smile was meant to be 3 movements. Two were sequenced in 1966. The Elements was not fully conceptualized or done, and Brian did not finish it. I think that what happened is that the Boys voted Brian down on the movements concept, and Carl submitted an album list on December 10, 1966 to Capitol based on the BBs vote.

I think that there were some serious fights after the concept of movements got voted down, and I think Brian began a slow but steady decline into amphetamine dependence and eventual psychosis afterward. I think he never recovered from the shock of losing control of his group, and that is why, in my opinion, he never finished another album for The Beach Boys alone after that. He did work on songs, but really did not finish most of them either.

Smile as released is the original concept, and the 12 track album in December 1966 was but a shadow of Brian's vision.

The same thing happened to John Fogerty with CCR on Mardi Gras (?), and he never cut anything with CCR after that either.

[I. Spaceman]

Smile as released is the original concept, and the 12 track album in December 1966 was but a shadow of Brian's vision.

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it, hater latecomers.
Thank you, Peter.

[Ron]

Didn't seem to bother Stephen King when he re-wrote parts of The Gunslinger because the original novel no longer fit what he decided 30 years later was the actual ending of the Dark Tower.

It sure as hell bothered me, esp. the ending. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but it REALLY pissed me off; I guess being hit by that truck messed up more than we think.

I read it.  It's King's book to end how he sees fit; it made sense to me.  He even warned you not to read the ending if you were going to take it that way! Lol. 

[Cam Mott]

Smile as released is the original concept, and the 12 track album in December 1966 was but a shadow of Brian's vision.

Put that in yer pipe and smoke it, hater latecomers.
Thank you, Peter.

I feel like I, or somebody, has smoked something.   

[jazzfascist]

Don't know the story of The Gunslinger, but it also seems that King had an original version from which he worked.

If only that were true -- it would have been better.  But King had no idea where the story was going until he wrote the last three books.  That's why he had to partially re-write the Gunslinger.  I can fault him for his decisions (and do) but it was his decisions and his ability to say, "It's done."

It's a completely different scanario, apparently King was in the process of writing those books and then decides to rewrite the beginning, that's not the case with Smile.

Søren

How do you know?  Were you there?  Do you have notes?  How do any of us know what happened beyond a few comments on session tapes and testimony from interviews (which you are discounting as you see fit)?  The point is, none of us know exactly what happened, and to dismiss a masterpiece composition (which does production-wise pale with the original production) based upon such ill-founded opinions is annoying as heck.  Brian wrote the songs, he can finish them however he wants.  Then the BB versions should be kept separate as productions.

Well from what you tell, it seems like two different scenarios. I don't see I'm discounting anything, there's just so many contradicting and vague accounts about what happened, that you have to look at it from all angles. I'm not trying to dismiss anything and if it's a masterpiece it will stand on it's own and it won't matter what I or anybody else says about how it came to be. I don't personally think it's a masterpiece composition and that may be something I don't get. I still think it sounds pretty fragmented and unfinished, and this whole going into how it was made, is really just an attempt of trying to explain or make sense of that fact. I never disputed Brian's right to do whatever he wants to and he doesn't owe me or anybody else any masterpieces, he's still one of the greatest, but of course I have an opinion about the music and what happened.

Søren

[Aegir]

I think this rehashing is interestng f the latecomers. Yes, Brian did tell me in 1981 that Smile was meant to be 3 movements. Two were sequenced in 1966. The Elements was not fully conceptualized or done, and Brian did not finish it. I think that what happened is that the Boys voted Brian down on the movements concept, and Carl submitted an album list on December 10, 1966 to Capitol based on the BBs vote.

I think that there were some serious fights after the concept of movements got voted down, and I think Brian began a slow but steady decline into amphetamine dependence and eventual psychosis afterward. I think he never recovered from the shock of losing control of his group, and that is why, in my opinion, he never finished another album for The Beach Boys alone after that. He did work on songs, but really did not finish most of them either.

Smile as released is the original concept, and the 12 track album in December 1966 was but a shadow of Brian's vision.

The same thing happened to John Fogerty with CCR on Mardi Gras (?), and he never cut anything with CCR after that either.

So therefore, we can conclude --

*BWPS is not what Smile would've been had it been completed in '66/'67, but at the same time:
*BWPS is Brian's vision of a finished Smile

Interesting.. very interesting.

[Old Rake]

Aegir: yes, you actually summed it up perfectly.

Smile as released is the original concept

The original concept, yes. The identical lineup? Nope.

[Bicyclerider]

Much as I hate to dispute anything Mr. Reum says, let me throw this out there:

Brian mentioned to Peter that Smiile was going to be in three movements.  Did he say in 1981 that the first two movements were sequenced?  Because this is the first I've heard this.  He's said in numerous recent interviews that the first two movements of BWPS were "done," and that the third had to be created anew, but this is demonstrably false, as in the second movement Child and Look/song for children were not completed in 66-67 but new lyrics and melody lines were created to complete it.  So perhaps what Brian was saying was that the concept for the first two movements were done, but not exactly what would go in them or in what sequence.  So I would echo what Jon said, he may have gone back to the original concept of movements, but that doesn't mean BWPS is the same as what a 67 Smile would have been, including sequencing, song choice, whether link tracks would be used or fade outs, etc.

[Dancing Bear]

Those months when Brian, the band, Van Dyke and the posse were devoted for the next big qalbum (Smile) were scrutinized to death. Whatever 'big event' that ocurred, like Mike bitching about how Pet Sounds was intended as a one-off album and then the group projects would be more commercial is well documented. Whatever ressentments Brian and Van Dyke had about Carl, Mike, Al and Dennis was vented in the press during BWPS promotion.

That's why I doubt that there ever was a big definitive turning point as a group vote about Smile's structure. Why would Brian fail to mention it in recent interviews? He even said that Dennis f***ed their wives, I don't think he's afraid to tell all. 

He could have forgotten about a group vote, but this would raise a whole new view about everything discussed in this thread.

Then how do we explain Carl's list?

a) Brian would eventually finish the master, look at the printed sleeves with this absurd track-list and have a laugh with his kid brother about his little prank. 

b) Carl had an evil plan where Brian would look at all those printed sleeves and finally go along with Carl's desire to have a 12 track Smile. Then it would sell three million copies and Carl would be lauded as the one who saved the day making up that list behind Brian's back.

c) Brian dictated the list to Carl and eventually forgot about it.

[Old Rake]

but that doesn't mean BWPS is the same as what a 67 Smile would have been

It literally couldn't have been, as it incorporates not only new material, but also ideas based on subsequent speculation. Not that there's anything wrong with that whatsoever.

My theory is that when Brian refers to two movements as being "done," he's talking about two movements being essentially sequenced in his head, or the loose ideas of them were sequenced in his head years ago. I think those two movements are likely "The Elements" and whatever you want to call the "Americana" movement -- the "Barnyard Suite" or whatever. I think he probably had some idea of how those were all going to fit together, and I'm not sure we got EXACTLY what they would have gone like, but I think we got something very similar to it.

The one that was sequenced subsequently was the middle movement, and we know from Darian's commentary that the connection between "Wonderful," "Look" and "Child" were realized only when the songs were placed next to each other on the computer and they realized how similar the basslines were. I imagine that based on the "Child" connection with Surf's Up, that song was added as well.

[absinthe_boy]

My theory is that when Brian refers to two movements as being "done," he's talking about two movements being essentially sequenced in his head, or the loose ideas of them were sequenced in his head years ago.

Brian has stated that the blueprint for the first two movements was safely locked in his head for 36 years.

I take that to mean that he, and only he, would have known pretty much which pieces of the musical jigsaw to put together to make the first two movements.

[Jeff Mason]

The real key to this mystery is gone forever.  Brian and VDP were writing together in summer 1966.  The first Smile session proper was in October, bypassing a (lost) May H&V session and a few scattered August sessions (and GV natch).  What did Smile look like in August before recording started?  What had they done before they hit the studio?  Give me a tape from that period (or keep the May H&V tape from being wiped) and we will learn something.  My guess is that the concept was already reduced from its original scope even that early on.  Don't forget that Smile existed in a form lost to us prior to any studio sessions.

[Peter Reum]

I don't see any problem with Carl carrying out the wishes of a majority of the shareholders in American Entertainment. The majority heard Brian's proposal for three movements, nixed it, and directed Carl, (who was already the person who did the footwork with Capitol after the Pet Sounds debacle) to submit a 12 track album. Brian may have even tried to go along in seeing his contemplated masterpiece sliced and diced. That doesn't mean he wasn't devastated. For the first time, the rest of the Band had rejected a creative idea of his in a major way. I see the rest of his time with Smile as a creative collapse, and a growing amphetamine dependence, with rapid psychosis developing.

The idea Jon posited seems the most logical to me. He had a couple of movements tentatively sequenced in his head, and they went out the window when the band took over Smile and turned it into a 12 track album of songs.

Smiley Smile was Brian's passive aggressive response- a creative but fragmented statement showing the band what their vote had created.

This is and always was a family business, and the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. The Beach Boys, in their vote, nixed the idea of a cantata or rock opera, or whatever you want to call it. They had not gotten accurate sales figures from Capitol on Pet Sounds, which we now know was a strategy to pressure Brian into more surf and summer music instead of "art rock."

This what Brian always meant when he said "we got too far out on that music-it wasn't going to sell." That's what the Band told him when they voted to reject Smile. My guess is that Murry had a lot to offer to sway the vote, as he hated Good Vibrations. There is no wonder those later vocal sessions in December were so contentious.

[Dr. Tim]

Seeing as all the scholars are weighing in, here's my two cents for the 33 1/3rd time:

For a piece that was finished in 2003-04, why is there already such a mystery (flames appropriately fanned) about who did what?   Are we supposed to think everyone's lying so soon after about how much Brian really did just to make Brian feel better?  Or to sell records?  Was there a second gunman on the grassy knoll?  Did men really land on the moon?  Who shot JR? Holy guacamole...

Clearly some things Brian remembered and/or rediscovered; Brian Van Dyke and Darian had some new ideas (i.e. the salon orchestra Cantina reprise in  IIGS); some outside help worked on it and suggested ideas too, just like Pet Sounds.   What's that got to do with the price of rice, right?

The finished CD and DVD performance work as a composition and a performance, and that's all that ultimately matters. Many prefer the live DVD over the CD, and that's a valid choice.  Either way I consider* the finished "Smile" a work of genius, even if  it was somewhat finished by committee - it was a talented committee, which included the original authors.   Let's see how time treats it, bet money that it will hold up.  In the meantime, watch what happens when you play it for people who don't know the backstory - like your children.    Do they bop along to it or tune out?  Most likely the former.   End of that story.  That said, the backstory is fascinating, and thanks to other enthusiasts and the people on this Board I made it a point to search out the 66-67 tapes.  They are a necessary companion  if you're a student of the music, showing how ahead of its time that music was, and how close it was to completion  (or how far).  So much thanks for that discussion -- but can we lose the revisionism?  It's just as tedious when Serious Rock Critics do it (i.e., is Sgt. Pepper genius?  Crap?  Inferior to [insert favorite LP title]?  Tune in next week for the answer).   And I'm as guilty of it as anyone else.   So do as I say, not as I do.  That is all.  Lather, rinse, repeat...

*But who cares what I think?

[Old Rake]

I almost agree with Peter, except:

The idea Jon posited seems the most logical to me. He had a couple of movements tentatively sequenced in his head, and they went out the window when the band took over Smile and turned it into a 12 track album of songs.

I think if anybody turned the album into a 12-track album of songs, it was Brian. Sure, it might've been as a RESULT of pressures from the group, but I think it might very well have been about time constraints and the pressure to finish the album that led him to pare down his original concept out of pure necessity. The date is looming? Crap, what's finished. Can we turn that into 12 songs? Okay, sure, we make Vegetables its own song, maybe Wind Chimes too -- throw "Great Shape" in there as its own thing -- uh lessee, Look isn't finished enough, I don't know what to do with Holidays, those are out. Old Master Painter? That's its own track. And so on.

I think its real likely the track listing we have is a result of Brian sitting down with Carl or whoever and hashing out a logical way to finish something that was unfinishable at that point in time. And the NEED to pare down is probably what cost Brian his enthusiasm.

Smiley Smile was Brian's passive aggressive response

I think its just as equally likely a) Brian's attempt to make a "fun album" a la "Beach Boys Party" through the haze of LSD *OR* b) a reflection of Brian's fragmentary mental state that he actually saw this as an aesthetic choice rather than an attack on the boys.

*I* think his passive aggressive response was to subsequently pour his true creative energy into Redwood rather than the Beach Boys. I think *THAT* was Brian's f-you to the group.

[Dancing Bear]

I think that what happened is that the Boys voted Brian down on the movements concept, and Carl submitted an album list on December 10, 1966 to Capitol based on the BBs vote.

Smiley Smile was Brian's passive aggressive response- a creative but fragmented statement showing the band what their vote had created. (...) The Beach Boys, in their vote, nixed the idea of a cantata or rock opera, or whatever you want to call it.

Do you think there was a group vote or are you certain there was one? This is conjecture.

(...)and they went out the window when the band took over Smile and turned it into a 12 track album of songs.

Where is the evidence that the 12 track plan ever got started? The Nov/ Dec unfinished tracks were left lying on the shelf and Brian moved his amphetamine-ridden attention to hours and hours of Heroes & Villains. We can rationalize that the band "resisted" and Brian half-heartedly tried to finish another hit single to "show them", but it was Brian's show all the way. If Carl & Co. had taken over Smile would have been finished in January.

[Old Rake]

Where is the evidence that the 12 track plan ever got started?

The point I'm making is it didn't even NEED to get started. If Brian had wanted to, and Im' pretty sure he ended up NOT wanting to, but if he'd wanted to, he coulda finished the 12 tracks in a matter of weeks, or even really *days* -- which I think is probably WHY the list was concocted, no matter who concocted it.

Given the status of the songs on that list, it was a clearly a "what's most finished" list.

[Jeff Mason]

I think that what happened is that the Boys voted Brian down on the movements concept, and Carl submitted an album list on December 10, 1966 to Capitol based on the BBs vote.

Smiley Smile was Brian's passive aggressive response- a creative but fragmented statement showing the band what their vote had created. (...) The Beach Boys, in their vote, nixed the idea of a cantata or rock opera, or whatever you want to call it.

Do you think there was a group vote or are you certain there was one? This is conjecture.

(...)and they went out the window when the band took over Smile and turned it into a 12 track album of songs.

Where is the evidence that the 12 track plan ever got started? The Nov/ Dec unfinished tracks were left lying on the shelf and Brian moved his amphetamine-ridden attention to hours and hours of Heroes & Villains. We can rationalize that the band "resisted" and Brian half-heartedly tried to finish another hit single to "show them", but it was Brian's show all the way. If Carl & Co. had taken over Smile would have been finished in January.

Dancing Bear, Peter has been involved with the inner circle.  He has spoken at great length to all of the individuals involved.  He therefore has access to information not published in interviews, which I believe he's saving for a book someday.  What he is sharing is from those discussions.  It is not conjecture.  If Peter is posting it, he is posting something that someone at some point in the inner circle said.  Not saying it's the gospel, but it is better than the vague "something happened" that most books are stuck with. 

[Rocker]

Well, I just have a crazy thought, sorry, but if it's true that the others voted him down to make a 12-track album, is it possible that he, not wanting to let so much of his great music being layed aside, tried to put it all into "Heroes & villains"? I mean he really began working his ass off on that song in from January on and put fragmenst into that song that were "own" songs before, like "great shape" and "Barnyard" I believe.
I guess this will be proven wrong in just the next post (or the first to answer on this) but I just started thinking about it and didn't look at any tracklists and dates. So, forgive me....

[Dancing Bear]

Dancing Bear, Peter has been involved with the inner circle.  He has spoken at great length to all of the individuals involved.  He therefore has access to information not published in interviews, which I believe he's saving for a book someday.  What he is sharing is from those discussions.  It is not conjecture.  If Peter is posting it, he is posting something that someone at some point in the inner circle said.  Not saying it's the gospel, but it is better than the vague "something happened" that most books are stuck with. 

I consider Peter a gentleman and I apologize if I was disrespectful to him.

If this voting event was described to him by someone in the inner circle or Brian himself, he'll have no problems saying so. If it's info he's keeping for his book, fine. It's all good.

[Cam Mott]

Peter, I refrained from mentioning this before, even when you were criticising me for supposedly leading an interviewee and lecturing me on how to ask open questions to get reliable answers, but the way I remember your account of this exchange you asked what I thought were leading questions and got responses in line with premises in your questions.  Maybe it's just me, I didn't save the post, if someone did please post it.  Do you think that is a possibility at all?

Regardless, Brian is always a question as to his reliability and 1981 seems like it might have not been a good year for reliability in Brian's life. 

On the other hand, inspite of any  possible leading and reliability issue, his answers could still be his true recollection.

Is there any other evidence for these proposed pre-list movements?  Or this proposed vote.

[Rocker]

Regardless, Brian is always a question as to his reliability and 1981 seems like it might have not been a good year for reliability in Brian's life. 

imo Brian's more reliable before the second Landy-years than during or after them. It seems his mind got really damaged in those years....

[Jason]

Isn't it easier just to listen to the music?

[sidewinder572]

Exactly. Who cares how much Brian was involved? Does it really matter? How is your life going to change if Brian Wilson wasn't 100% involved in the creation of SMiLE. Just listen to it. It's a work of genius. It's above and beyond almost everything that's out there. It's over a year after it's release and I still listen to it. The SMiLE music belongs to Brian Wilson. But the SMiLE arrangments were a collabrative effort between Brian, Darian and Van Dyke. I would love to go to my local record store and see this but I can't so I have Brian's version instead and I can live with that.