BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[Jeff Mason]

If you started to write a book, got sidetracked, came back to you notes years later, and finished the book, you would say you finished the book.  Not a version of the book, or a variation on it, but the book itself.  The only difference in music is that we have two things to consider -- the form of the composition, and the recorded specific version.  Brian can't finish the latter but he can do the former.  The ONLY reason people are objecting is that they have his notes and are making judgments based upon their opinions of those notes (which aren't public knowledge).

And Bicyclerider -- why can't it be this?  When they STARTED, they only wanted to make a live version.  But halfway through it, they realized that they were basically completing what they had started 37 years before.

There is a clear line, in fact, between the two.  When it was just Brian and Darian, they were making a version for a live performance.  The moment that VDP stepped into the picture, the possibility of finishing the composition for real entered the realm of possibility.

[jazzfascist]

If you started to write a book, got sidetracked, came back to you notes years later, and finished the book, you would say you finished the book. 

Yes, in a very formal sense, but if you also told that you didn't really remember, what you wanted to do originally, then I think you could question how finished it really was.

Søren

[Jeff Mason]

If you started to write a book, got sidetracked, came back to you notes years later, and finished the book, you would say you finished the book. 

Yes, in a very formal sense, but if you also told that you didn't really remember, what you wanted to do originally, then I think you could question how finished it really were.

Søren

Didn't seem to bother Stephen King when he re-wrote parts of The Gunslinger because the original novel no longer fit what he decided 30 years later was the actual ending of the Dark Tower.

[Sheriff John Stone]

If you started to write a book, got sidetracked, came back to you notes years later, and finished the book, you would say you finished the book.  Not a version of the book, or a variation on it, but the book itself.  The only difference in music is that we have two things to consider -- the form of the composition, and the recorded specific version. 

I think you have to add a third thing, which is the condition of the author, or, in the case of music, the condition of the composer.

When you're talking about  music, when you're talking about a 37 year time span, and especially when you're talking about Brian Wilson, you can't consider enough the physical, emotional, and spiritual state of the composer.

Because I love Brian's work and wish him the best, I have tried to be sensitive in not addressing his emotional state and remaining talent while "finishing" BWPS. But Brian's condition is a huge factor in determining the legitimacy of his contributions.

[jazzfascist]

If you started to write a book, got sidetracked, came back to you notes years later, and finished the book, you would say you finished the book. 

Yes, in a very formal sense, but if you also told that you didn't really remember, what you wanted to do originally, then I think you could question how finished it really were.

Søren

Didn't seem to bother Stephen King when he re-wrote parts of The Gunslinger because the original novel no longer fit what he decided 30 years later was the actual ending of the Dark Tower.

Don't know the story of The Gunslinger, but it also seems that King had an original version from which he worked. Brian doesn't really seem to remember what his original ideas were and there also seems to be some missing pieces, like the Air element which he apparently didn't finish. That's why you get the impression, also from hearing the music,  that Smile 04 is really the music, that was recorded  before Brian left the project, strung together for a live performance, not really a finishing of his original ideas. Of course Brian has every right to do that, but when you know the story, questions like these are bound to arise.

Søren

[Third Coast]

But as you said, Brian has every right to do that. Because he's the creator. If he says this is it and it's finished, that's it, even though we know it could have been more or better. I do think it's comparable to authors finishing their work years later. It's also comparable to classical composers, the old masters, finishing their work years later, many of them having gone through all kinds of turmoil in the meantime. Their final product might have been different had they completed the work much earlier, too. But it is what it is. We know what Smile might have been, but it's not our place to second-guess the artist. The artist gets the final say.

[Jeff Mason]

Don't know the story of The Gunslinger, but it also seems that King had an original version from which he worked.

If only that were true -- it would have been better.  But King had no idea where the story was going until he wrote the last three books.  That's why he had to partially re-write the Gunslinger.  I can fault him for his decisions (and do) but it was his decisions and his ability to say, "It's done."

And we aren't in Brian's life, so it's not for us to say he's too unhealthy to create.  That's condescending IMO.

[Cam Mott]

I'm happy if Brian is brought happiness by BWPS but I'm still very cynical about the method and especially about the disregard for and dissing of his BB bandmates. 

[Jeff Mason]

I'm happy if Brian is brought happiness by BWPS but I'm still very cynical about the method and especially about the disregard for and dissing of his BB bandmates. 

OK, now the dissing and disregard I hear you on.  Very classless of Brian.

[jazzfascist]

But as you said, Brian has every right to do that. Because he's the creator. If he says this is it and it's finished, that's it, even though we know it could have been more or better. I do think it's comparable to authors finishing their work years later. It's also comparable to classical composers, the old masters, finishing their work years later, many of them having gone through all kinds of turmoil in the meantime. Their final product might have been different had they completed the work much earlier, too. But it is what it is. We know what Smile might have been, but it's not our place to second-guess the artist. The artist gets the final say.

It's still a different thing. Brian wasn't following his muse, he was told by his wife and manager that it was time to finish Smile and you can also question to what degree it was actually his work or the work of Darian.

[jazzfascist]

Don't know the story of The Gunslinger, but it also seems that King had an original version from which he worked.

If only that were true -- it would have been better.  But King had no idea where the story was going until he wrote the last three books.  That's why he had to partially re-write the Gunslinger.  I can fault him for his decisions (and do) but it was his decisions and his ability to say, "It's done."

It's a completely different scanario, apparently King was in the process of writing those books and then decides to rewrite the beginning, that's not the case with Smile.

Søren

[absinthe_boy]

Darian cam: Its been stated that the camcorder was used with the intention of recording audio, so that Darian could go back and listen to conversations he and Brian had. So for the most part it isn't even pointing at them, or it is just placed on a table vaguely looking at them...therefore the idea that the footage could be used on a DVD is not viable.

However, I suppose it would be interesting to listen in to the converations, but remember they were private conversations between Darian and Brian...one would presume however that if Darian himself basically pieced SMiLE together then he wouldn't need to refer back to conversations he'd had with Brian...

Is SMiLE finished?

Darian has said that in the beginning of the process to resurrect SMiLE, Brian sometimes had to be coaxed. So Darian would say, "we're not completing an LP here, we are presenting the music of SMiLE in a live concert". That put Brian at rest, made him more able to tackle the emotions involved in working on the project again.

AS things went on, it seems that Brian and VDP decided that what we ended up with (BWPS) *is* a finished SMiLE. But Brian fully accepts that it is not the same SMiLE we might have had in 1967 had he completed it then. He's gone on record as saying because he's happier and in a better emotional place these days, that BWPS is more "up" than a 1967/68 SMiLE would have been.

But...he has on several occasions said that he and VDP finished SMiLE...with help from Darian. But he freely admits it's not the SMiLE we might have had in the 60's.

[Bicyclerider]

What Brian and Van Dyke and Darian "finished" was an extended suite or medley of Smile songs designed and composed with live performance in mind (the links and transitions).  They did not IMO finish "SMile" (the original 67 album, which, as Cam pointed out and I agree with, would have had separate tracks, fade outs, etc., with a different lineup and different structure to some of the songs) although the new contributions by Van Dyke and Brian distract some into thinking that.  It certainly made better press to present BWPS as the completion of

Perhaps what Brian really meant with "SMile is finished" is "I'm finished with Smile." 

[Bicyclerider]

I left out  " as the completion of the beach boys' unfinished 67 psychedelic masterpiece rather than just a medley of Smile songs performed live."

[Jeff Mason]

I give up.  No one here seems to get the diff between a composition and a production.  A song and an album.

[Jeff Mason]

Don't know the story of The Gunslinger, but it also seems that King had an original version from which he worked.

If only that were true -- it would have been better.  But King had no idea where the story was going until he wrote the last three books.  That's why he had to partially re-write the Gunslinger.  I can fault him for his decisions (and do) but it was his decisions and his ability to say, "It's done."

It's a completely different scanario, apparently King was in the process of writing those books and then decides to rewrite the beginning, that's not the case with Smile.

Søren

How do you know?  Were you there?  Do you have notes?  How do any of us know what happened beyond a few comments on session tapes and testimony from interviews (which you are discounting as you see fit)?  The point is, none of us know exactly what happened, and to dismiss a masterpiece composition (which does production-wise pale with the original production) based upon such ill-founded opinions is annoying as heck.  Brian wrote the songs, he can finish them however he wants.  Then the BB versions should be kept separate as productions.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Didn't seem to bother Stephen King when he re-wrote parts of The Gunslinger because the original novel no longer fit what he decided 30 years later was the actual ending of the Dark Tower.

It sure as hell bothered me, esp. the ending. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but it REALLY pissed me off; I guess being hit by that truck messed up more than we think.

[Jeff Mason]

Didn't seem to bother Stephen King when he re-wrote parts of The Gunslinger because the original novel no longer fit what he decided 30 years later was the actual ending of the Dark Tower.

It sure as hell bothered me, esp. the ending. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but it REALLY pissed me off; I guess being hit by that truck messed up more than we think.

Didn't that just SUCK?  I hated it too.  But you must admit -- it was his right as creator to do what the heck he wanted with his series, including trash it.  That's all I am saying.  He can trash it in his writing, and I can pan it in any review I offer.

[I. Spaceman]

I give up.  No one here seems to get the diff between a composition and a production.  A song and an album.

Exactly.

[Dancing Bear]

I give up.  No one here seems to get the diff between a composition and a production.  A song and an album.

Technically, yes, it was a composition (or a bunch of songs projected for the next album, doesn't matter) started in 1966 and finished in 2004.

Subjectively, I don't like BWPS (on a musical level) and the whole multimedia project (and the PR blitz) feels like David Leaf trying AGAIN to prove that Brian never needed the other Beach Boys. Or they didn't deserve him. Whatever.

[Andrew G. Doe]

... I'm one of those who think the existing info shows SMiLE was an album of 12 distinct tracks with fade outs...

So am I - for the excellent reason that, when I asked someone who would know (and I mean, really, really, really know), that's what they told me - single album, banded tracks, no crossfades or segues (except within one title). And this was maybe four, five years ago. That's why I've never taken Brian's statements that "we had it all back in the day, the first two movements" at all seriously. Remember, this is the guy who, if you look out the window and say the sky's green with McDonald tartan stripes will, nine times out of ten, agree with you just to be amenable.

[Jeff Mason]

Andrew, keep in mind Peter Reum's claim.  Once Smile was out there, people began sharing things that they had been sitting on for years as secrets.  Peter claims that Brian told him in 1981 that Smile was to be a three movement piece as conceived, a la (in Brian's way of thinking) Rhapsody in Blue.  Make of that what you will.  Peter is no liar.  For my money, I see the initial concept (in summer 1966) as a three movement (or some type of movement structure) edited down to a 12 track list by December because there was no practical way to make a 3 movement piece on an LP.

[Jeff Mason]

Subjectively, I don't like BWPS (on a musical level) and the whole multimedia project (and the PR blitz) feels like David Leaf trying AGAIN to prove that Brian never needed the other Beach Boys. Or they didn't deserve him. Whatever.

And that's cool -- you don't have to LIKE it to realize that it is Brian's final word on the subject.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Wouldn't dream of even hinting that Peter is a liar - he's way too fine  ahuman being for that. I don't doubt for one second that he's reporting exactly what Brian told him. I'm sure that Brian did think of it as a piece in three movements, just as he originally thought of it as Dumb Angel. Then the moment passed, just as the 24-hour telescope shop did.

[al]

OK, my tuppence.....

How much input did Brian have? THe brief was to prepare SMiLE for a set of live performances. Darian and Brian got together and they went through what was there. Darian asked where things went, Brian answered as best he could remember. Sometimes he has a very good memory, other times not so good. Van Dyke got involved and the project moved up a gear so that songs that were unfinished were finished - some by the addition of the original unused lyrics, others by new ones. The Blue Hawaii lines are new and would not have been anything like that back in 67. Darian helped with some linking stuff following the structures and melodies that were already there.

SO - Brian wrote all the music and there were guidleines in the vaults for all the basic tracks and most of the vocals. All it needed was stitching together in an order that worked and the finishing touches.

Having done the shows to an incredible response the obvious move was to record what they had, and the album is a pretty straight version of the live show.

For me as a thirty year plus BB fan all of this was better than the second coming (I'm not christian so that one would be a bit of a shock) - and just as unexpected.

The very existence of BWPS is a miracle. If you don't like it fair enough, but you can't be much of a Beach Boys fan, as it's the nearest we are ever going to get to hearing what it might have sounded like back then, as we will never know.

Some people don't know when its Christmas in Beach Boy land. What do you want? A magic copy of the finished SMiLE to appear and validate your lives? NOT going to happen. BWPS is what we have and if you asked any fan in the 1980's or 1990's if that was a possibility they would have laughed in your face. Be happy with what we have.