BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[Sheriff John Stone]

If you don't happen to care for BWPS, fine.  But you can't compare it to labels that put out old hit records and don't give you what you were expecting.

Thank you for realizing that my post was a comparison to BWPS. I was getting worried that people thought I was merely expessing my disdain for re-recorded oldies compilations. That wasn't the main point. Neither was the one you made that I referenced above.

My main point was that I consider BWPS to be merely a re-recording of old Beach Boys' songs, not done as well as the originals, and with the major motivation being to salvage a failed solo recording career, and the minor motivation being TO CASH IN on Brian's previous work. Is nothing sacred?

And Ian, if you're looking for original (is this a matter of semantics?) SMiLE era recordings, there's about a half an hour of them on the boxed set - CD 2.

Aw, come on. It's Friday night (didn't Dennis sing that?), the board is usually dead over the weekend (should that be in the Pet Peeve thread?), I was listening to some Syd (R.I.P.), some posters commented that they were enjoying the thread, so I thought I'd write a little something. I didn't think it was that bad...

[the captain]

Is nothing sacred?

No.

[Jeff Mason]

Has BWPS made any "best albums ever" list yet? Has it been performed as a "cantata" by anyone anywhere?

It's too soon for someone else to perform it yet.  And I DID see it in a Top 10 list recently:  Top 10 albums to take on family road trips (criteria: music that crosses generational appeal, that mom and dad (and grandpa) can listen to and enjoy as well as the teenagers).

[Jeff Mason]

What I don't understand is why that MATTERS to people. Is it good? Is it listenable? Your milage varies, but I'd say absolutely, yes, it is. It is a listenable, coherent, cogent rendition of a composition partially written in 1966 and partially written in 2004 in the style of 1966. It is a recorded performance of "SMILE: THE COMPOSITION."

I don't particularly like it. It sounds like three medleys of Smile music strung superficially together without any big idea behind it, and if you read Darian's description of how it was put together in the tour programme, that 's more or less how it went down. I guess that's why you still partially obsess about the historical facts, even though the answers are probably lost forever.

Søren

If you hear no big idea behind it, I guess that's fine, but I couldn't hear ANY big ideas behind Smile until I heard the 2004 version.  Now I do hear a superstructure not available to me before.  My thoughts are posted on an essay on this site.

[Glenn Greenberg]

Has BWPS made any "best albums ever" list yet?

Yeah--mine!     

[I. Spaceman]

And Ian, if you're looking for original (is this a matter of semantics?) SMiLE era recordings, there's about a half an hour of them on the boxed set - CD 2.

 

Is that an excerpt from the hours of unfinished studio tapes from the original Smile sessions I have had since 1989?

[Sheriff John Stone]

And Ian, if you're looking for original (is this a matter of semantics?) SMiLE era recordings, there's about a half an hour of them on the boxed set - CD 2.

 

Is that an excerpt from the hours of unfinished studio tapes from the original Smile sessions I have had since 1989?

How would I know? They're YOUR tapes, not mine. You asked me about original recordings and I referenced where you could hear them, at least officially released ones.

In your opinion, Ian, on CD 2 from the boxed set, how unfinished was "Our Prayer", "Heroes And Villains", "Cabinessence", "Wonderful", "Wind Chimes", "Vegetables", "Surf's Up", and "Good Vibrations"?
 

[I. Spaceman]

And Ian, if you're looking for original (is this a matter of semantics?) SMiLE era recordings, there's about a half an hour of them on the boxed set - CD 2.

 

Is that an excerpt from the hours of unfinished studio tapes from the original Smile sessions I have had since 1989?

How would I know? They're YOUR tapes, not mine. You asked me about original recordings and I referenced where you could hear them, at least officially released ones.

In your opinion, Ian, on CD 2 from the boxed set, how unfinished was "Our Prayer", "Heroes And Villains", "Cabinessence", "Wonderful", "Wind Chimes", "Vegetables", "Surf's Up", and "Good Vibrations"?
 

Good Vibrations was released.
For the rest, as unfinished as the rough versions of Pet Sounds material on Disc 3 of the box set. A good outline, but unfinished.
Imagine if those were the only PS tapes you had heard, they'd sound pretty "finished", right? Brian's never finished till he releases something.

[Cam Mott]

It strains credibility to think that the album producer wouldn't be required to sign off on the back cover track list before it was finished by the art department.  I for one do not believe Brian never saw the back cover (which has the list).  If he dictated the list and someone else (Carl) wrote it down, maybe he never did see the written list - but that doesn't mean he didn't come up with it and/or approve it.

Brian not remembering something I can certainly believe.

The track list is a historical artifact that gives us one lineup, at a particular moment in time, of the Smile album.  I never said it gave us the sequence, if you read my post I specifically note that point.

I guess no one buys me when I've said that I've been told by former 1960s Capitol art directors, one of them SMiLE's art director George Osaka, that no artwork and printed material went without review and approval by the album's producer.  Whether Brian remembers it or not or was holding the pencil which wrote the list, it would not have been accepted or acted on without Brian's review and approval and more than once in this case judging by the existing proof.

I'd like to see any proof of a date on the list or proof too, I'm betting [a donut] it is actually from March '67 though December '66 is also a good possibility.

[buddhahat]

It strains credibility to think that the album producer wouldn't be required to sign off on the back cover track list before it was finished by the art department.  I for one do not believe Brian never saw the back cover (which has the list).  If he dictated the list and someone else (Carl) wrote it down, maybe he never did see the written list - but that doesn't mean he didn't come up with it and/or approve it.

Brian not remembering something I can certainly believe.

The track list is a historical artifact that gives us one lineup, at a particular moment in time, of the Smile album.  I never said it gave us the sequence, if you read my post I specifically note that point.

I guess no one buys me when I've said that I've been told by former 1960s Capitol art directors, one of them SMiLE's art director George Osaka, that no artwork and printed material went without review and approval by the album's producer.  Whether Brian remembers it or not or was holding the pencil which wrote the list, it would not have been accepted or acted on without Brian's review and approval and more than once in this case judging by the existing proof.

I'd like to see any proof of a date on the list or proof too, I'm betting [a donut] it is actually from March '67 though December '66 is also a good possibility.

Ok so he approved the tracklist on the back of the proposed sleeve but didn't it include the proviso "see record for correct playing order". Therefore Brian's approval of this sequence doesn't mean he had any intentions that the tracks would run in that order.

Edit: Oops I see you're talking about the lineup, not the sequence.

[buddhahat]

And Ian, if you're looking for original (is this a matter of semantics?) SMiLE era recordings, there's about a half an hour of them on the boxed set - CD 2.

 

Is that an excerpt from the hours of unfinished studio tapes from the original Smile sessions I have had since 1989?

How would I know? They're YOUR tapes, not mine. You asked me about original recordings and I referenced where you could hear them, at least officially released ones.

In your opinion, Ian, on CD 2 from the boxed set, how unfinished was "Our Prayer", "Heroes And Villains", "Cabinessence", "Wonderful", "Wind Chimes", "Vegetables", "Surf's Up", and "Good Vibrations"?
 

Sherrif John Stone, I don't agree with your comparison. Firstly I think if you perceive BWPS to be a replacement for the original sessions, then you're always going to be disappointed - although beautifully produced it obviously doesn't have the same magic sound, BB vocals etc. Neither Darian, Brian or VDP ever presented BWPS as the definitive Smile but merely a chance to organise the best of the sessions into a cohesive whole. To do this successfully meant that the music had to be unified with ideas and structure, missing gaps had to be filled in with lyrics and melody (and wow, how great is it to hear Worms with the missing vintage parts?). The result for me, is a fantastic opportunity to listen to the fragmented music created in 66/67 as a flowing piece, instead of organising the sessions into my own dubiously constructed fanmix. Don't get me wrong - I love listening to the original sessions in this way and regularly do. Therfore I view BWPS as a companion to the sessions and a crucial element to the Smile experience, rather than a last word that inevitably falls short. I think part of the beauty of the original sessions is their unfinished state too - they're like a musical Venus De Milo (excuse the pretension). The listener fills in the gaps and imagines a finished album in 67 that would have been more beautiful than any other music in history. To finish the music limits this potential, and so to call BWPS the finished Smile is always going to cause problems for people, me included. To suggest it's a sham or a fake though seems particularly unfair and, I think, misunderstands the intentions of those who created it.

[I. Spaceman]

Buddha, you got it. Very fair and objective assessment.

[buddhahat]

Cheers Spaceman!

[JRauch]

Another thought I just had about Brian's involvement:

Why should Darian film/record these writting sessions with the famous "Darian-cam" if he did it all the work alone??!!?!? Why should he tape himself? Using the camera only makes sense if he was recording the idea-exchange between Brian and Van Dyke (and Darian), so that he could do his job as "musical secretary".

Really hope you get what I try to express.

[Cam Mott]

What happened to all that footage I wonder?  That would make a great DVD, all the out-takes of the BWPS collaboration and Inside Pop.

[jazzfascist]

What happened to all that footage I wonder?  That would make a great DVD, all the out-takes of the BWPS collaboration and Inside Pop.

You would probably just see some feet or an elbow most of the time, when it came to the stuff being filmed with the "Darian-cam".

Søren

[jazzfascist]

Another thought I just had about Brian's involvement:

Why should Darian film/record these writting sessions with the famous "Darian-cam" if he did it all the work alone??!!?!? Why should he tape himself? Using the camera only makes sense if he was recording the idea-exchange between Brian and Van Dyke (and Darian), so that he could do his job as "musical secretary".

Really hope you get what I try to express.

I don't think anybody said that Darian did it all alone, no doubt Brian was involved, it's more about the degree of his involvement and how much he was up to it.

Søren

[Rocker]

Another thought I just had about Brian's involvement:

Why should Darian film/record these writting sessions with the famous "Darian-cam" if he did it all the work alone??!!?!? Why should he tape himself? Using the camera only makes sense if he was recording the idea-exchange between Brian and Van Dyke (and Darian), so that he could do his job as "musical secretary".

Really hope you get what I try to express.

I don't think anybody said that Darian did it all alone, no doubt Brian was involved, it's more about the degree of his involvement and how much he was up to it.

Søren

If I remember correctly there were some voices saying that they thought it was Darian's work and Brian just said "yes".

[Cam Mott]

By the way, one thing that bothers me about this whole discussion (generally), is that most people assume that the SEQUENCE of a SMiLE'66/67 would have been a lot better than what we have now. Of course it could be, but how do you know that? Maybe, just maybe it would have been inferior.

Yup, and furthermore: WHICH Smile would have been superior? The one from October '66? November '66? January '67? March '67? July '67? Smiley Smile?

The March '67 one.

How does that one go?

Give me a C, a bouncy C. I've been in this town, da da da dee dee dee ...

[Jeff Mason]

I thought it was C#.  (ducks)

[Cam Mott]

Ok so he approved the tracklist on the back of the proposed sleeve but didn't it include the proviso "see record for correct playing order". Therefore Brian's approval of this sequence doesn't mean he had any intentions that the tracks would run in that order.

Edit: Oops I see you're talking about the lineup, not the sequence.

Right but I'm one of those who think the existing info shows SMiLE was an album of 12 distinct tracks with fade outs where the significance of sequence of those tracks is different then in BWPS. That note does not mean the track order would necessarily be different in mind.

[Sheriff John Stone]

To finish the music limits this potential, and so to call BWPS the finished Smile is always going to cause problems for people, me included.

Bingo! Hallelujah! Thank you! You just made my point for me.

Wasn't it BRIAN who stated in every interview concerning BWPS, "After 37 years, we finished it". And yes, that caused problems for me. It actually ruined BWPS for me because of the respect I have for the original 1966-67 work.

I won't elaborate on the feelings I have for the 1966-67 Smile sessions. Everybody on this board probably has similar feelings. But I meant it when I rhetorically asked "Is nothing sacred?" And Luther corrected responded "No". Maybe I hold that music as too sacred, along with the contributions of Mike, Carl, Dennis, and Al.

When it was first announced that Brian and company was going to perform Smile live in 2004, I was ecstatic, just like everybody else. It was great that Brian was able to deal with  all the "issues" surrounding Smile. And it was especially great that the public would now get a listen to all of this fabulous music. Everything was positive.

I had no problem with the Smile being presented as a live piece. I found Jeff Foskett's statement in Beautiful Dreamer quite sincere, about not wanting to recreate Smile, but to do the best live presentation possible. I viewed this more as a tribute to Smile, not FINISHING Smile. Whatever sequence/configuration they came up with would've been OK. It was just a concert. Yeah, we probably would've still debated the sequence, but the chosen sequence (and lead vocals) would not have been etched in stone.

Then, somebody, probably Melinda, or David Leaf, or a combination of people, came up with the idea of recording and releasing BWPS, and everything changed for me. I didn't question Brian's right to record BWPS, I questioned the motives behind the decision.

I'm not going to rehash my feelings on BWPS, you can read the previous posts. But I will say that everytime Brian appeared on TV or in print, and he said (and I'm paraphrasing) -  We FINISHED Smile. We added this and that. Darian did this and that.  Van Dyke did this and that. Now it's a rock opera. My wife thought it was time. I thought it was time for the public to hear it. I didn't think people were ready for it. I couldn't believe how much people liked it... - I just shook my head in disgust. So, you finished it, Brian? YOU, the Brian Wilson of 2004, finished it? OK, whatever.

I have a bad habit of repeating myself, so I will say again - I respect Brian's right to do whatever he wants with his music. He is/was the artist. And to quote the late Dennis Wilson, "Hey, he can do whatever he wants". I just wish he would've chosen to not re-record the music, and proclaim it as the finished document. You're right, Luther. Nothing is sacred anymore. What happened with the Smile music is proof of that...

[Jeff Mason]

Smile is two things -- a composition that is published with a publishing company and a production done by a specific band at a specific time. Both were left unfinished in 1967.  He most definitely finished to his satisfaction the composition in 2004, but there is no way to finish the 1967 recordings.  Clearly when Brian says "Smile is finished" he means the former.  Why is this so hard to understand?

[Bicyclerider]

I don't understand it for one.  When they started work on Smile, it was to be a live presentation of Smile material, with links to make it a continuous live performance.  It was not in any way supposed to be a "finishing" of Smile, of the compositional material from 1967 - it was an "adaptation" of that material for a live performance.

But after the fact, it became a "Smile is finished" - meaning Brian and Van Dyke completed their work from 1967, at least that's what the words mean to me.  But that's not what BWPS is, it was not in any way meant to be a completion of the work as it was intended to be in 67, but yet that's what is implied in Brian's and others' comments.

[jazzfascist]

Smile is two things -- a composition that is published with a publishing company and a production done by a specific band at a specific time. Both were left unfinished in 1967.  He most definitely finished to his satisfaction the composition in 2004, but there is no way to finish the 1967 recordings.  Clearly when Brian says "Smile is finished" he means the former.  Why is this so hard to understand?

I think that Smile was whatever hazy musical vision Brian had in his head around 66/67 and that was what people was also obsessed with before Smile 04 came out,  the completed version sounds more like some of the Smile music strung together with the purpose of a live performance, so I don't know if Brian finished Smile, meaning his original ideas for that music, it's more like he got it out of the way.

Søren