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Author Topic: BWPS: How much input did Brian have?  (Read 98018 times)
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2006, 02:32:49 PM »

I believe that over 95% of Brian's contribution (I'll leave 5% for "That sounds great" and "Could I hear that part again") - whether it be for the live presentation or the recording of the CD - was simply an exercise in karaoke.

Brian did ALL of his work on SMiLE in 1966-67; he never re-visited it again for any length of time. 2004's BWPS was the work of Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, and some Van Dyke Parks.

The way Brian's promotional team made it appear that Brian "finished" SMiLE was the best "Brian Is Back" campaign yet. And, in my view, it rendered the project a fraud.
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2006, 02:40:07 PM »

Thanks Roger !

I remember when Brian was posting on the blueboard Jasper said "Brian, I think darian did a great job sequencing Smile" and Brian's answer was "No, I did it !"
Ok, a normal guy wouldn't say he didn't do it, but Brian even tried once to tell his wife that Van Dyke did Smile almost by himself. So I think why should he say he did it, when he didn't? And please don't come with "promotion, destroying myth, etc.". I mean we're talking about Brian Wilson, he doesn't know anything about promotion and probably gives a damn about myth...... Well, that's my point of view. I think it was a work of Brian and Darian.....
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2006, 02:51:07 PM »

Thanks Roger !

I remember when Brian was posting on the blueboard Jasper said "Brian, I think darian did a great job sequencing Smile" and Brian's answer was "No, I did it !"
Ok, a normal guy wouldn't say he didn't do it, but Brian even tried once to tell his wife that Van Dyke did Smile almost by himself. So I think why should he say he did it, when he didn't? And please don't come with "promotion, destroying myth, etc.". I mean we're talking about Brian Wilson, he doesn't know anything about promotion and probably gives a damn about myth...... Well, that's my point of view. I think it was a work of Brian and Darian.....

Unless Melinda (or some other manager who doesn't happen to be his wife) posted that as "Brian".

Quote
Are you kidding? Just watch it--hardly the same "sitting around Brian's house workshopping" as the actual "Darian-cam" footage. Staged... Kind of like Jeff gathering the band for the pep talk about "we're not trying to raise smile, but just to perform an album here..." as if they needed that talk. So much of that doc was clearly for the benefit of the cameras, it was pretty off-putting, I thought. Great to have, but just too phony.  I've said this many times and stand by it: the Beach Boys need a real documentary series of everyone saying any- and everything. Not just Brian's people, not just the rosy Beach Boys story. Everyone about every album. Hell, a full DVD of Smile would be great, including old footage of Carl (such as from the IJWMFTT stuff), anything of Dennis on the matter, and new and old footage of the others.  Never happen, but it should.
Best thing to do? Don't let David Leaf ANYWHERE near it. That Jeff speech was so obviously staged, it made me cringe. Also, I still question the wisdom of including the scene where Brian's not doing well; I appreciate the honesty (FINALLY!), but Melinda's reaction to it rubbed me the wrong way. There. I said it.

As far as what did Brian do, I will say this: I'd bet my working kidney that he came up with the "hot as hell" lyric, which is probably something he came up with spur-of-the-moment. It doesn't sound like a VDP lyric at all; if it did, it'd be more like "the sun beats down on the clown as the unicorns sip from the azure sea" or some other kind of Lewis Caroll-ish bit.

There. I said that too.
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2006, 02:54:01 PM »

"the sun beats down on the clown as the unicorns sip from the azure sea"

Did you copyright this ? Cool
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2006, 03:11:20 PM »

Bwaahahahahahaha!  LOL

Sadly, I think I may end up using that in an actual song.
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2006, 03:29:03 PM »

maybe we should start with who's idea it was to work on it in the first place...haven't read all of every post, but...I say Melinda, if that matters...to answer the original question--less than 50%, Brian probably wanted to get it done, get it out there, and move on...

kinda wonder who's idea it was to assemble a BEACH BOYS version of SMILE on iTunes ?

[edit]well, it was there a day or so ago...
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2006, 03:52:12 PM »

Well, here's what Brian had to say on the subject, when asked the question on the blueboard (September 23, 2004):

"Darian put it in his computer and I sequenced it. Without his help it would have been hard. I am not a computer guy, but I did the sequencing. L&M Brian"

Brian has always insisted that it's really him answering these questions on his website.  You'll have to decide for yourselves whether you believe him on that one, then you'll have to decide for yourselves what value to place on this statement of his, but I just thought I'd share it for those who didn't see it back then.

Craig
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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2006, 03:59:39 PM »

Also, I still question the wisdom of including the scene where Brian's not doing well; I appreciate the honesty (FINALLY!).

Standard journalistic practice. It's the ol' "triumph-over-incredible-odds" thing: had there been no premiere on 2/20/2004, or had it gone horribly amiss, that would most likely not have been included - had there been any DVD at all, which I also severely doubt.
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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2006, 04:06:47 PM »

But didn't Van Dyke say in interviews he wrote exactly what it would seem he wrote?  He said he was writing from Brian's point of view, considering what Brian had been through over they years.  Van Dyke has many styles of writing.  None of his solo records sound alike.  He can write simple pop lyrics and melodies, or get more obtuse. 

Read the Darian interview at CrutchfieldAdvisor.com for more info on what he contributed.  I don't think any of the people involved hassle the division of labor, just some fans.  Brian did have the final say in the sequencing and intent of BWPS.  I'm sure he was asked his opinion at every stage, because the "meaning" of Smile was so important to people, for some reason.  And I'm sure it probably doesn't match up with what Brian intended in the '60s, because he can't or won't remember.  Or he had no grand scheme of how it all tied together to begin with, which might play a part in why he didn't finish it to begin with.  Brian also wrote all the original arrangements upon which it was based, and he indicated to Darian he wasn't sure it could be done live.  All Darian had to do was adapt the originals to the line-up and capabilities of Brian's band plus a small string section.  He's probably had more formal training than Brian, so it would be quicker and easier for him to do that than the Brian of any era.
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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2006, 06:27:16 PM »

What I REALLY WANT TO KNOW is, who is the guy that came up with stretching out the vocal line in "barnyard"?  On the original tapes, he goes "the cook is chopping lumber." and on the new one, he goes "the cook is chopping lum-burrrrrrrrrrr" sounds really cool.  Now that sounds like an insane person must have came up with it, so my money's on Brian Wilson. 
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« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2006, 06:32:31 PM »

Well, maybe that's how it was meant to go all along.. there was never an official recording of Barnyard, just a demo.. who knows how it would've been?
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« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2006, 06:35:29 PM »

That's what I'm pointing at too.  Of course, if Brian was minimally involved, who would have known?  Either Darien wrote it for him, or Brian was at least capable of coming up or remembering that part.  I'm just joking around of course, but that was really one of the coolest "Hell yeah!" moments when I first heard the new version of the album. 
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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2006, 12:07:06 AM »

Regardless of who was responsible for what in 2004, I think the important thing to remember is that Brian's input was immense from the get go due to the incredible work he put in in 1966 and 1967.
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« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2006, 01:07:37 AM »


In my opinion, surely Brian and VDP are responsible for composing the new musical parts: The clarinet line to SFC, new melody to Da da etc.


Actually, the clarinet line in "Song For Children" came from the original sessions for "Look" (If I remember correctly, this was another example of the track being wiped, but Darian was able to make out the clarinet part since the instrument bled onto another track).

That part sounds vintage 66 to me but I bought this up on the board before and I think the parts that Darian heard from a headphone bleed were actually on CIFOTM not SFC. I may be wrong butI didn't think there was any evidence that the SFC melody was vintage. It definitely feels it though.

I can't recall the specifics right now, but I remember reading that the SFC clarinet line was found on the original session tapes for "Look". I think it was suggested that it was an overdub that was wiped at one point, but could still be faintly made out. I used the phrase "another example" above because, like you said, Darian was also able to make out a previously unheard Carl vocal part for CIFOTM through the headphone bleed on another track.

This clarinet line is one of my favourite parts to BWPS so it would be fascinating to know that it's from 66. It really sounds of the era to me, like some of the melodies Brian was writing for Pet Sounds. If you can remember where you heard the info that it's from an original Look tape, Roger, I'd appreciate it. Not that I doubt you - I'd just love to know for sure that this was an original melody.

I find everyone's input on this topic fascinating. I think it's tempting to be cynical and treat the whole thing as a fraud, just because being a Smile fan always seems to go hand in hand with frustrations and disappointments. However, I just don't buy that Brian and Van Dyke were sidemen on this and that it's 99% Darian's work. Watching the documentary you can see how passionate darian is about Smile and Brian Wilson, and how touched he is that the whole thing comes off in the 1st concerts (he's moved to tears describing Brian's reaction). I don't know the guy but you can't imagine he'd be comfortable faking Brian's involvement with this. If he loves the smile music then he'd have more vested in engaging Brian in it than faking the whole thing. It's great to learn that Brian posted that he'd sequenced it - why not believe him?

I agree that you have to accept BWPS as a presentation of the Smile music as opposed to the finished Smile. It's a chance to hear the best of the sessions as a cohesive, flowing whole, played and sung beautifully (not with the original acid-fried, spooky 60s vibe, but who could replicate that?) and with new (and old) parts added by the original composers. Best of all the whole project is steered by a guy who is a complete Smile nerd and knows  the history of the project and the current Smile nerd theories. Surely therefor BWPS was and is a dream for the Smile fan? If you accept it on these terms rather than 'this is how Brian intended it in 67' then it is a fantastic, satisfying and beautiful album.
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« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2006, 01:20:58 AM »

It's great to learn that Brian posted that he'd sequenced it - why not believe him? 

Well, Brian's famed for saying things that are, shall we say, less than completely accurate, merely because he thinks it's what the other party wants to hear (or as a means of ending an uncomfortable situation as painlessly and rapidly as possible). Brian's Brian, y'know ?

Do I think he personally sequenced it from first "Aaaaaaahhhh" to last fade out ? No, not at all.

Do I think that Darian did a goodly degree of the spadework, presented it to Brian and Brian made corrections, suggestions and bestowed his benediction ? Absolutely.

And remember - the huge bulk of the work was done by Brian. In 1966 and 1967.
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« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2006, 03:06:22 AM »

It's great to learn that Brian posted that he'd sequenced it - why not believe him? 

Well, Brian's famed for saying things that are, shall we say, less than completely accurate, merely because he thinks it's what the other party wants to hear (or as a means of ending an uncomfortable situation as painlessly and rapidly as possible). Brian's Brian, y'know ?

Do I think he personally sequenced it from first "Aaaaaaahhhh" to last fade out ? No, not at all.

Do I think that Darian did a goodly degree of the spadework, presented it to Brian and Brian made corrections, suggestions and bestowed his benediction ? Absolutely.

And remember - the huge bulk of the work was done by Brian. In 1966 and 1967.

Of course I don't think he sequenced the whole thing, and imo if he'd been left to it I think he'd have paid little heed to do what was laid out in 66/67 and you'd probably find Solar System in there (maybe not a bad thing). This would be valid if he were finishing Smile, but as it's a presentation of the Smile music then I think the assistance/guidance of Darian who has knowldege of the whole story, what does and doesn't belong to the origional proposed album etc, is crucial. Personally I feel that if Brian is saying he sequenced it then that is reassuring and at least suggests that he was involved and gave thought to the sequencing.

Of course as you and others point out, a huge proportion of this is original material and that, after all is what it's about. I do find the question of authorship of the new stuff fascinating though. It's particularly interesting when Brian and VDP have remebered original lyrics and melodies i.e. worms.

On closer listening though it's easy to see that much of the 'new' melodies could easily be created from melodies within the songs. I keep going on about the clarinet line from SFC (the 'Though I know I'm won't to wondering' melody), but I've just realised that it's an adaptation of the horn line at the beginning of the original Look track. This doesn't mean it's not an original melody but just that you can see how the composer (hopefully Brian/VDP) could create a vintage sounding new melody by adapting what is already there.

That's also what appears to have happened with In Blue Hawaii as somebody else has pointed out.

The strings over the echoing pinao part to CIFOTM are also a new addition but ,to my ears, these are a variation on the Surf's Up theme - This works brilliantly over  the part from CIFOTM. Some of these new additions are so effective that it's tempting to believe they might be original but previously unrecorded parts. I suspect though that if this were the case there would have been more made of it in the documentary.

The 'easy my child' melody to CIFOTM sounds entirely new though (you can't hear it anything similar in the original sessions) and the 'Is it hot as hell' bit to Hawaii which, from the documentary looks like it was Van Dyke's creation. Who knows - there's always a danger when you disect something so much that you destroy it's beauty. Maybe I should stop wondering and just enjoy the music.
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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2006, 04:51:08 AM »

Does anyone have a copy of the old post, I forget which board it was on, regarding an early (BWPS) tracklisting that included "Time To Get Alone" and "Diamondhead"?  That story is fascinating, as well.  Who came up with this early list?  If Brian, did he simply change his mind, or did someone talk him out of this lineup?  I would like to know more about what went down early in the process.
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« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2006, 05:24:18 AM »

From what I heard it was Brian who made that list. There was also "Fall breaks" on it, which of course became part of "Fire". I think he just compiled songs that were written (or parts of it) during Smile. Maybe just songs whose concept was thought up during Smile and which were recorded later.
Though I have no idea what's with "Time to get alone". Did he write that during Smile? Was it even supposed to be part of it? Wasn't there also speculation about "Saturday mornin in the city"?
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« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2006, 05:42:57 AM »

Does anyone have a copy of the old post, I forget which board it was on, regarding an early (BWPS) tracklisting that included "Time To Get Alone" and "Diamondhead"?  That story is fascinating, as well.  Who came up with this early list?  If Brian, did he simply change his mind, or did someone talk him out of this lineup?  I would like to know more about what went down early in the process.

Prayer/Time To Get Alone /Bicycle Rider / Link/ Diamond Head/ Worms / H&V / Holidays / Link / Old Master Painter / Sunshine / Wonderful / Link / Cabinessence / Link / Wind Chimes / Fall Breaks / Veg / Fire / Dada / Cool Cool / Workshop / Surf's Up

I was wondering the same thing. From what AGD said about Brian putting Solar System on it if left to his own devices, I can assume that this surprising list reflected Brian's wishes at one point.


If Brian actually came up with the musical idea for H&V back in 1963, then maybe putting Solar System on SMiLE wouldn't be terribly far-fetched.


Edit: AGD did not say anything about Solar System, but Buddhahat did. My bad.

One more thing: BWPS is the definitive SMiLE, until Brian makes a better one.
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« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2006, 06:06:55 AM »

I don't think Brian actually had the idea for H&V that early.  I think Al probably meant that they did some of those H&V barbershop types of things in '63 (like that section after the second verse).  As for the early (BWPS) list, who knows?  Maybe Brian did keep thinking about SMiLE after it was scrapped in mid '67.  Maybe he had plans for it, but just never could get it together to finish it.  Who's to say that TTGA or Diamond Head was or wasn't intended for SMiLE at some point post summer of love.  Maybe Fall Breaks was the candle instead of the fire, and was meant to replace Fire.  That's what makes this whole saga so fascinating.  That's also what makes trying to recreate SMiLE as originally intended an impossible task.  The pieces were constantly changing, the pieces within the pieces were constantly changing.  No one, including Brian, knew how this thing was supposed to fit together.
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« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2006, 06:17:52 AM »

I don't think Brian actually had the idea for H&V that early.  I think Al probably meant that they did some of those H&V barbershop types of things in '63 (like that section after the second verse).   


Some months ago there was talk of a audio tape from '63 where Brian is humming the melody of "Surf's up". Are there any news about this? I kinda doubt such a tape would exist.


[quot]No one, including Brian, knew how this thing was supposed to fit together.
Quote

You know, I have a feeling that Brian back then knew exactly how it should be. And my respect for that man grows when I think about him being the only guy in the world who could have finished it. I guess he just hadn't enough time and support to finish it.
Brian of today is another story. It could be that he know how it all fits together (well BWPS fits together anyway) but it could also be that he doesn't remember.
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« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2006, 06:26:29 AM »

Maybe he did exactly know how it was goihg to fit together. When you can actually assign percentages of how much is finished, you must have an idea of the whole picture.

Am I the only one who thought that a completed SMiLE would be much, much more fragmented, with the various musical themes running the whole record, even in brief snippets?
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« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2006, 06:45:04 AM »

Quote
Brian did ALL of his work on SMiLE in 1966-67; he never re-visited it again for any length of time. 2004's BWPS was the work of Darian Sahanaja, Jeff Foskett, and some Van Dyke Parks.

Van Dyke Parks would never, ever, ever have had anything to do with this if it had been the level of sham you suggest. He would have steered miles clear of it, if it had been a sham or a charade to resurrect Brian's career. He has far more integrity than that.

I think Jeff's involvement was minimal.
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« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2006, 06:51:13 AM »

Andrew wrote:
Well, Brian's famed for saying things that are, shall we say, less than completely accurate, merely because he thinks it's what the other party wants to hear.

This is what bothers me about the Darian/Brian sequencing sessions.  Darian is a fan and was involved in Priore's book, and presumably shares some of the same preconceptions about Smile and its' sequencing as Priore.  Brian, wanting to please Darian, no doubt picked up cues from him as to how he thought it should go, and may have gone along with it "because it's what the other party wants to hear."  I don't think it's a coincidence that the Priore sequence is followed with only a couple of exceptions (Surf's Up, I Wanna Be Around/Workshop), that Wind Chimes is air, Dada is water, etc. 
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« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2006, 06:51:26 AM »

Does anyone have a copy of the old post, I forget which board it was on, regarding an early (BWPS) tracklisting that included "Time To Get Alone" and "Diamondhead"?  That story is fascinating, as well.  Who came up with this early list?  If Brian, did he simply change his mind, or did someone talk him out of this lineup?  I would like to know more about what went down early in the process.

Prayer/Time To Get Alone /Bicycle Rider / Link/ Diamond Head/ Worms / H&V / Holidays / Link / Old Master Painter / Sunshine / Wonderful / Link / Cabinessence / Link / Wind Chimes / Fall Breaks / Veg / Fire / Dada / Cool Cool / Workshop / Surf's Up

The list I recall seeing was a bit longer, had at least one song included twice (aside from "Link", that is) and was most decidedly not in Brian's hand. Also, it was not a BWPS tracklisting per se, but a proposed live running order. It's a suble difference, but an important one. I understand that there were at least two proposed track orders before the one they finally settled on.
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