BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

When were Dennis' and Carl's compositions recorded? Maybe those songs had something to do with the voting.

Dennis' "I Don't Know" was recorded Jan 12, 1967.
Carl's "Tones" was recorded March 1967.

Thanks for clearification ! So, it might have to do something with the voting. What do you think ?

Perhaps in the sense that if Brian felt before those dates he was losing control of SMILE, he would have also been losing interest in it, and would have been working on or allowing other recording sessions like these.  Also interesting to me is that Brian was involved in "Tones" and as I understand cancelled sessions for it in late March 67.

[Peter Reum]

Chuck, I have conducted well over 400 interviews myself, and have another 400 archived. Some of them are unpublished due to senstive personal connections between people. I have several that were done with Carl and Dennis before they died that are unpublished. If I outlive some of thse people, perhaps someday they can be published. But in spite of all that, lots of the signs are there in what HAS been said or published through the years.

That said, I still learn new things every month, and Peter Carlin's book has some great new material in it.

[SMiLEY]

Yes, but doesn't that book ask the very question that started this thread? I remember PAC posting on the Smile shop the very same line of thinking that has run off and on for twenty odd pages now. Darian finally sent a message, through a fan, that Brian was indeed involved in every facet of the making of the album. But this was after the book went to press.

Peter, you need to publish your book. Then we'll have something close to definitive on the subject of Brian, SMiLE, and BWPS, finally.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

Some of them are unpublished due to senstive personal connections between people.

Understood, and thank you.

[c-man]

Also, on 12/10/66 (a Saturday) the band played a one-off gig at Michigan U.

Sorry for just now bringing this up, but...I think this concert date might be a case of "Badman strikes again".  His book says they played Michigan State in East Lansing (not the University of Michigan) on 12/10 (December 10th in American terms).  We all know they played the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor back on 10/22 (October 22nd in American), two shows on that one date.  Over the years, the venue of the October shows has been mis-stated as Michigan State, and the European way of numberizing this date would be 22/10.  I could be wrong, but I really think it's another case of Badman (and there's many times where he clearly did this) taking conflicting data and "making" it fit.  In this case, it seems he changed "22/10" to "12/10" (both of which were Saturdays) because he was thinking it's supposed to be the American numberization (meaning there are not 22 months in the year, but there are 12) and because Oct. 22 and Dec. 10 were both Saturdays.

Maybe Ian Rusten knows?

[c-man]

Is GIOMH an example of "forcing Brian to stay longer than he wanted to creatively"?   

Actually, Brian wanted to do that album.  The whole reason that the Smile album came out was that it was a condition of getting the contract to release GIOMH.  You may hate it but it was something that Brian apparently wanted to do.

That might make sense, except that "GIOHM" and "BWPS" were released by two different labels (at least the CDs were, which is what really matters in terms of sales).  Rhino for "GIOMH" and Nonesuch for "BPWS".  Granted, both are distributed by WEA, but they're still separate labels requiring separate contracts and essentially they are competitors. 

[c-man]

Desper's book tells us exactly what everone did. You can hear the difference when Brian did stop. Ed Roach and Debbie Keil among many others say the saw a big change after Holland. Like everyone here I have listened to records seen pictures and heard interviews that tell me what Brian acted like on stage, in the studio, and in interviews. My opinion the Brian of 1967-71 was in far better shape then he ever was later.

Maybe this belongs in a separate thread, but the Desper book (as printed) gives Brian credit for playing the piano on "Don't Go Near The Water" when other sources such as Alan J. say it's Daryl Dragon, and for playing the organ on "Feel Flows", when Carl tells us in the 1971 "Rolling Stone" interview that it was him.  Interestingly, the original draft of Desper's book as it appeared online did not credit Brian with some of the things that the printed book did credit him with. 

As for Brian's state of mental health and recording participation:  it seems clear to me that it deteriorated after 1966, then deteiorated even MORE after 1972.

[Roger Ryan]

In my opinion, surely Brian and VDP are responsible for composing the new musical parts: The clarinet line to SFC, new melody to Da da etc.

Actually, the clarinet line in "Song For Children" came from the original sessions for "Look" (If I remember correctly, this was another example of the track being wiped, but Darian was able to make out the clarinet part since the instrument bled onto another track).

That part sounds vintage 66 to me but I bought this up on the board before and I think the parts that Darian heard from a headphone bleed were actually on CIFOTM not SFC. I may be wrong butI didn't think there was any evidence that the SFC melody was vintage. It definitely feels it though.

I can't recall the specifics right now, but I remember reading that the SFC clarinet line was found on the original session tapes for "Look". I think it was suggested that it was an overdub that was wiped at one point, but could still be faintly made out. I used the phrase "another example" above because, like you said, Darian was also able to make out a previously unheard Carl vocal part for CIFOTM through the headphone bleed on another track.

This clarinet line is one of my favourite parts to BWPS so it would be fascinating to know that it's from 66. It really sounds of the era to me, like some of the melodies Brian was writing for Pet Sounds. If you can remember where you heard the info that it's from an original Look tape, Roger, I'd appreciate it. Not that I doubt you - I'd just love to know for sure that this was an original melody.

I'm sorry this answer comes 20-odd pages later, but here's the quote from Darian as published in Dominic Priore's "Making Of SMiLE" book regarding the clarinet line in "Song For Children":

"I think 'Look' had vocals intended for it, by the way Brian reacted to music and the way he came up with the melody; working on that song was something like the experience I'd had with 'Do You Like Worms'. When I was able to listen to the multitracks of the song, there was bleed-through on the tape. That's where I got that clarinet line from, and Brian was very quick to sing the melody, based on that clarinet line."

[Peter Reum]

With respect to to Dec 10 Satuday thing...Capitol memoranda are always stamped as received at the individual's desk, so it wouldn't matter if it was a Saturday or not. Capitol's mail room probably received the list of December 9th, a Friday, and it hit Ray Polloey's desk on a Saturday.

It looks like this:


RECEIVED

Dec. 10, 1966


by Ray Polley

with his initials under the date between the date and his name on the rubber stamp.

Why would someone work on a Saturday? Even I have been at Capitol on a saturday working on a BB project. That happens sometimes.

[MichaelPapelian]

Charles,
Thanks for the info on the status of the Durrie Parks tapes and acetates.
Bottom line is that no one has heard them.  Hard to believe.
I can't help but believe that if the missing 45 minutes cut from "The Magnificent Ambersons" was found, someone wouldn't want to check it out.

Then again, maybe these tapes and acetates would show that a true Beach Boys "Smile" could be released?

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

You're welcome Michael.  What surprises me is that we don't have more recent information on them, as in, I'm not aware of anyone reaching out to Durrie Parks and either asking her if the acetates were found and thus heard.

[c-man]

You're welcome Michael.  What surprises me is that we don't have more recent information on them, as in, I'm not aware of anyone reaching out to Durrie Parks and either asking her if the acetates were found and thus heard.

Well, who has access to her?...if anyone on this board does, this is your cue.

[buddhahat]

In my opinion, surely Brian and VDP are responsible for composing the new musical parts: The clarinet line to SFC, new melody to Da da etc.

Actually, the clarinet line in "Song For Children" came from the original sessions for "Look" (If I remember correctly, this was another example of the track being wiped, but Darian was able to make out the clarinet part since the instrument bled onto another track).

That part sounds vintage 66 to me but I bought this up on the board before and I think the parts that Darian heard from a headphone bleed were actually on CIFOTM not SFC. I may be wrong butI didn't think there was any evidence that the SFC melody was vintage. It definitely feels it though.

I can't recall the specifics right now, but I remember reading that the SFC clarinet line was found on the original session tapes for "Look". I think it was suggested that it was an overdub that was wiped at one point, but could still be faintly made out. I used the phrase "another example" above because, like you said, Darian was also able to make out a previously unheard Carl vocal part for CIFOTM through the headphone bleed on another track.

This clarinet line is one of my favourite parts to BWPS so it would be fascinating to know that it's from 66. It really sounds of the era to me, like some of the melodies Brian was writing for Pet Sounds. If you can remember where you heard the info that it's from an original Look tape, Roger, I'd appreciate it. Not that I doubt you - I'd just love to know for sure that this was an original melody.

I'm sorry this answer comes 20-odd pages later, but here's the quote from Darian as published in Dominic Priore's "Making Of SMiLE" book regarding the clarinet line in "Song For Children":

"I think 'Look' had vocals intended for it, by the way Brian reacted to music and the way he came up with the melody; working on that song was something like the experience I'd had with 'Do You Like Worms'. When I was able to listen to the multitracks of the song, there was bleed-through on the tape. That's where I got that clarinet line from, and Brian was very quick to sing the melody, based on that clarinet line."

Hey thanks for the reply.

It's funny but I bought this query up before as I was sure I'd read that Darian had heard a bleed for Look aswell as Child but I ended up assuming I was mistaken. It's good to know that he apparently did hear the clarinet line from a 66 session. Cheers.

[MichaelPapelian]

I simply can't believe that when David Leaf interviewed Durrie Parks for the "Beautiful Dreamer" documentary, that he wouldn't have asked her about the tapes and acetates?

My gut tells me that these tapes have vocals and sections thought lost or missing.

[SMiLEY]

Paging Alan Boyd and/or Aeijtzche!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I have no idea about the Durrie acetate situation.  Sorry.

[Old Rake]

The last we all heard from Durrie she and her son were planning to "inventory" all that stuff, and she was very willing to talk to someone about archiving it. Then she seemed to change her mind (possibly after talking to Van Dyke?) and backpedaled, saying the inventory was quite a long way off. I think, although I'm not sure, that Alan made several attempts to contact her, and that was the last we heard of it.

It upsets me that those things are probably rotting away somewhere, too, but Michael, if you're so concerned, why don't you get back in touch with her, or get her in touch with Alan or Mark Linett who could possibly DO something about archiving it?

[Chris Moise]

In July 2006 this is what I want to know about Smile.  In September 2000 Durrie Parks E-mailed me stating she had Smile acetates and tapes.

Could someone please tell me if the tapes and acetates are safe?  Further, has anyone (Hello David Leaf) listened to them?

The most recent speculation I have on the acetates can be read here:

http://smileysmile.net/documents/durrieparksacetates.pdf

Brian and Van are such creative guys that they wouldn't have to hear Durrie's acetates to finish Smile...

What I am trying to mention is that many of us did not know whether Brian or Van would remember the material, and that perhaps Durrie's artifacts would help jog their memories. What apparently happened isthat Brian had no trouble remembering his compositions, but needed lyrical help, which Van had no trouble remembering once they got together to listen. Hence, Durrie's stuff was unnecessary. If there is material she has that is not on the finished composition, it probably truly is an outtake, and would be interesting only for an archival release of the session sketches, like outtakes from Pet Sounds on the Pet Sounds Boxed Set (e.g. Brian screwing up the verses to WIBN). Hence, our wishes to get Durrie involved were more out of our fear of Brian and Van not remembering than anything else. We think like historians, not artists. Their approach was as artists, picking up where they left off and doing what needed to be done to make Smile complete. To them, it didn't matter that they used 60s material or wrote new material.


The above was written by Peter Reum on the old Smiley board in 2004. While I always enjoy reading Peter's posts I couldn't possible disagree with the above any more. I can't understand why he speculates that the Parks acetates would be like "Brian screwing up the verses to WIBN"?. Why assume that they aren't that interesting? I would think that the acetates are rough mixes and edits supervised by BW in 1966. Considering the lack of vintage '66 BW mixes in the vault one would think that acquiring the acetates would of been a priority during the preparation of BWPS. We know there is lots of significant Smile tapes missing and that it's likely the acetates contain material and mixes that aren't on the tapes. I just can't understand how anyone that is a BW fan wouldn't be salivating at the thought of unheard '66 Smile material. Maybe I just find the work BW did in the mid 60's more interesting than the work he did in 2004. What if tone of the acetates is a BW edit of I'm In Great Shape for crying out loud? Just one man's opinion...

Chris

[Peter Reum]

At this point, with Smile done, they are artifacts from the 60s. It isn't that they are not worth pursuing, they are. But when Briian and Van Dyke picked up in 2003, they were working with what they had plus their memories. Smile as finished is from 2004. A Smile Box would be welcome, and I would buy one, but at this point, anything found would be unrelated to the finished Smile.

Anything Brian does is usually worth hearing, Smile 66/67 especially. I hope they put aside differences and assemble a box set. It is tragic that full compilations of the Basement Tapes and Smile 66/67 are not available commercially.

[buddhahat]

At this point, with Smile done, they are artifacts from the 60s. It isn't that they are not worth pursuing, they are. But when Briian and Van Dyke picked up in 2003, they were working with what they had plus their memories. Smile as finished is from 2004. A Smile Box would be welcome, and I would buy one, but at this point, anything found would be unrelated to the finished Smile.

Anything Brian does is usually worth hearing, Smile 66/67 especially. I hope they put aside differences and assemble a box set. It is tragic that full compilations of the Basement Tapes and Smile 66/67 are not available commercially.

Excuse my naiivete but where does the main resistance for a Smile boxset come from? Is Brian still dead against it? I would have hoped with the success of BWPS that the original sessions would not be such a source of anguish for him. Or is it to do with the legal dispute between Brian and Mike at the moment?

Surely the Smile sessions will be released soon?! David Leaf practically said as much with Brian present.

[MBE]

Been some time since I listened to it - which lines does Brian sing ?

More like 20 percent I would say but Brian didn't do 50 if these were his lines. Still it adds to the song

Good things turn bad but it's over now
So don't look sad 'cause you're older now

These nights, pretty nights, that were meant to be
With you and me

You may not live with me every day
All that I care is that we find a way
It's the way that we

[Jeff Mason]

Excuse my naiivete but where does the main resistance for a Smile boxset come from? Is Brian still dead against it? I would have hoped with the success of BWPS that the original sessions would not be such a source of anguish for him. Or is it to do with the legal dispute between Brian and Mike at the moment?

Surely the Smile sessions will be released soon?! David Leaf practically said as much with Brian present.

Brian has once said in the last few years something to the effect that Capitol will be allowed to release more Smile "over my dead body" or some such thing.  It seemed more like spite to me than anguish to be honest.

[c-man]

At this point, with Smile done, they are artifacts from the 60s. It isn't that they are not worth pursuing, they are. But when Briian and Van Dyke picked up in 2003, they were working with what they had plus their memories. Smile as finished is from 2004. A Smile Box would be welcome, and I would buy one, but at this point, anything found would be unrelated to the finished Smile.

Anything Brian does is usually worth hearing, Smile 66/67 especially. I hope they put aside differences and assemble a box set. It is tragic that full compilations of the Basement Tapes and Smile 66/67 are not available commercially.

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I totally agree with Peter.  "SMiLE" is a work that was unfinished and abandoned in the '60s, returned to and finished in '03/'04, with the original recordings serving as the templates.  I would not call them demos, but rather "Brian's first attempt to do 'SMiLE'", as compared to the new version, which is "Brian's finished 'SMiLE'".  That's how history should view it.  Again, the originals DO have great value, and should be pursued, but as for a finished piece of art...only "BWPS" can lay claim to being that, and anything that didn't make it into the finished version needs to be considered "outtakes" out of necessity.  And Brian's outtakes ARE usually worth their weight in gold, for sure...especially the ones from such a significant project.  Let's hope Brian's healed enough to allow their eventual release. 

[Old Rake]

And its important to nobody that:

- these acetates, which are on degradable material, will deteriorate at some point and be unplayable, so its key that any of this stuff be preserved digitally as quickly as possible, and

- these acetates could possibly contain items of great historical importance -- edits, vocal takes we haven't heard, etc. Things which are not currently in the Beach Boys archive.

It doesn't matter ARTISTICALLY whether you think they're important -- it matters HISTORICALLY that they ARE important. Even if they're nothing we haven't heard before, they're still historically important and need to be preserved. Its relation to a completed Smile is irrelevant.

[king of anglia]

They are important historically and artistically. Of all the acetate versions I've heard, many of them have unique mixes with instrumentation that is not heard (probably) on the master tapes. I recently heard an mp3 of an acetate of "Do you like worms" that has a an extra bass drum rhythym over the chorus that isn't on the multi tracks- now that IS important artistically.
It is likely that Brian wiped many guide vocals and group vocal takes. The acetates are the ONLY place where these may be found. It is imperative that they are located and copied.