BWPS: How much input did Brian have?

[buddhahat]

So I'm sorry to rake this subject up as I'm sure it's been done to death. I've searched through the BWPS topics and can't really find a topic specifically about this but apologies if I've missed one.

I was reading in the BWPS review section that in an interview Darian said that the 'Brian producing' footage in Beautiful Dreamer was staged and that technically he wasn't needed for the backing tracks. Firstly, did Darian actually say something to this effect? Does anyone have the interview?

I know that some people on the board are sceptical about Brian's input to BWPS, and that Darian was responisble for the choice of tracks, sequencing etc.

So my question is, what's the opinion on who was responsible for what on the album? It shouldn't bother me - I should just enjoy the album for what it is, but the thought that it's more Drian's baby than Brian's I guess niggles me a bit.

In my opinion, surely Brian and VDP are responsible for composing the new musical parts: The clarinet line to SFC, new melody to Da da etc. They must have had opinions about the sequencing of tracks, and sections within tracks (H&V for example). Presumably Darian would make suggestions but Brian and VDP must have had their own thoughts. After all, in the documentary Darian says he had to tell them to stop coming up with ideas(!) - He can't just have made this up.

Darian said he wrote some of the sections between the tracks so I'm guessing maybe the instr version of the cantina section that kicks off Section 3 is his, and the transition between heroes and plymouth rock - that kind of thing. Of course Darian would need to help Brian organise the music for a live performance, as Darian knows the abilities of the band presumably more than Brian. But I just don't believe that Brian was there merely to put his name to this and that it's largely Darian's project (maybe no-one is insinuating this and I'm jumping to conclusions).

I know this is a contentious point, and I don't want to start some board fight but any opinions or, more importantly, facts regarding this issue would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Excellent question, and one to which everyone has their own preferred answer. I've a feeling the truth - whatever it may be, from "Brian did it all" to "Brian was just there for the cameras" (both manifestly untrue, of course) - will emerge in time. Applying the methods of Sherlock Holmes to the material of Brian Wilson is, at best, an exercise in frustration and driving down dead ends.

One thing that sould be writ large across the top of this, and every other page concerning this subject - from the go-get Darian has stated many times that the material performed live and on the CD was chosen because it would work best in a live context. This is a Smile, but not the Smile.

[c-man]

This is a Smile, but not the Smile.

Good point, Andrew, and might I just add that it's unlikely that a 1967 "SMiLE" would've contained ALL the musical material recorded by Brian in that era (e.g. "He Gives Speeches", etc.), without morphing into a double-LP out of necessity (which I've never seen any indication that it would have been).  As is, "BWPS" is about 47 minutes, already past the clock-in time of most '60s single-LPs.  To cram any more music on the vinyl would've downgraded the fidelity significantly. 

Craig

[Ron]

I think another thing worth mentioning is that Brian has always been (from what I can tell, but I'm not an expert by a long shot)... Brian has always been open to input from other people and a SMiLE in '67 likely would have included 'help' from others.  For instance on the pet sounds tapes, someone in the studio comes up with the staccato part that's so cool in "god only knows". 

[Old Rake]

Don't forget Van Dyke Parks -- he, too, was intimately involved in the creation of the album. By all reports it was an equal-parts contribution started by Darian but ultimately fuelled by Brian and Van Dyke.

[Cam Mott]

..and Unicorns and Leprechauns. 


There, I said it and without any real proof to boot.  I don't know anything, it just seems to me that Brian had little to do with it [in the 21st century that it] and Van Dyke did his lyrics at home and Darian is the real author/compiler of BWPS without much more input from Brian or Van Dyke than a nod that what he did was fine. On the other hand I think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, so....

[TV Forces]

There, I said it and without any real proof to boot.  I don't know anything, it just seems to me that Brian had little to do with it [in the 21st century that it] and Van Dyke did his lyrics at home and Darian is the real author/compiler of BWPS without much more input from Brian or Van Dyke than a nod that what he did was fine. On the other hand I think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, so....

He did?  Well there goes your credibility.  "Without any real proof to boot," for sure!

[Roger Ryan]

In my opinion, surely Brian and VDP are responsible for composing the new musical parts: The clarinet line to SFC, new melody to Da da etc.

Actually, the clarinet line in "Song For Children" came from the original sessions for "Look" (If I remember correctly, this was another example of the track being wiped, but Darian was able to make out the clarinet part since the instrument bled onto another track). A good example, by the way, of the care taken with BWPS to resurrect certain musical ideas from the original sessions to maintain integrity. I believe it had been determined here on this site as well that all of the melody lines to "In Blue Hawaii" can be found in "Da Da" if one listens closely. I certainly believe that Darian and Paul Mertens orchestrated the connecting pieces, although I think all of them were written by Brian in some way during the original sessions.

As to the original question: Mark Linett stated emphatically shortly before the album's release that Brian was present and contributing ideas during the tracking sessions. The main difference between recording BWPS and any other recent album is that the idea behind BWPS was to replicate 40-year-old sessions note-for-note, sound-for-sound, an idea that Brian was probably less interested in than Darian and the rest of us were. In effect, he was forced to reproduce the product the same way he had attempted it as a 24-year-old. I'm sure he was excited about finally connecting all the pieces in the studio, but it must have been artistically restrictive at the same time.

As far as staging footage goes, the only footage I know to be staged for certain is the scene in "Beautiful Dreamer" where Darian and Brian are shown discussing the sequencing of "Wonderful", "Song For Children" etc. Producer David Leaf felt he needed to show something to represent the construction of BWPS, so he had Darian and Brian improvise the scene for the camera months after the BWPS premier in London.

[buddhahat]

..and Unicorns and Leprechauns. 


There, I said it and without any real proof to boot.  I don't know anything, it just seems to me that Brian had little to do with it [in the 21st century that it] and Van Dyke did his lyrics at home and Darian is the real author/compiler of BWPS without much more input from Brian or Van Dyke than a nod that what he did was fine. On the other hand I think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone, so....

So are you saying Darian composed the new stuff: The new melody to CIFOTM, SFC, Blue Hawaii? I'm not so sure. After all Darian said he was responsible for smoothing the transitions out but I don't believe he'd be comfortable writing new melodies for the smile songs. In Beautiful Dreamer, Van Dyke is showing the new melody and lyrics to Blue Hawaii (the ' hot as hell in here' bit) to Brian. This makes me think that if Brian didn't compose as much as we'd hoped then Van Dyke would compensate, but not Darian. I'm not convinced that Brian took a back seat with the new melodies though. Presumably he does still compose new songs so why not for BWPS?

[buddhahat]

In my opinion, surely Brian and VDP are responsible for composing the new musical parts: The clarinet line to SFC, new melody to Da da etc.

Actually, the clarinet line in "Song For Children" came from the original sessions for "Look" (If I remember correctly, this was another example of the track being wiped, but Darian was able to make out the clarinet part since the instrument bled onto another track).

That part sounds vintage 66 to me but I bought this up on the board before and I think the parts that Darian heard from a headphone bleed were actually on CIFOTM not SFC. I may be wrong butI didn't think there was any evidence that the SFC melody was vintage. It definitely feels it though.

[Bicyclerider]

I find these very interesting questions, who did what for BWPS - one important factor is who arranged the songs for the live performance?  I would think Darian, since he was working from old session tapes and basically replicating them, but modifying them for the maximum impact in a live show.  I'm sure Brian gave final approval on what he did, such as the Heroes sequence, and Vegetables, but if Darian arranged the stuff for the live show, once they went into the studio they were basically replicating the live show - so Brian wouldn't be needed to "produce" per se.

when it comes to the vocals, it gets more interesting - apparently Brian was trying to produce the vocals and was having problems, and Darian was called in to help, after which the vocals went down smoothly.  Was he just moral support, or did he take over the vocal production/arrangements?

[Roger Ryan]

when it comes to the vocals, it gets more interesting - apparently Brian was trying to produce the vocals and was having problems, and Darian was called in to help, after which the vocals went down smoothly.  Was he just moral support, or did he take over the vocal production/arrangements?

It was more about Brian's initial inability to do a decent lead vocal on some of the tracks, not the overall group vocals. Darian was the only one who was going to tell Brian he needed to do better ("He gave me permission to kick his butt" or whatever Darian was quoted as saying around this time). We don't know what Brian's emotional state was during the time he attempted his first vocals, but cutting a lead for a newly composed song no one has heard before has got to be easier than trying to replicate the lead from "Surf's Up" 40 years later. I can understand why Brian would choke. I think Brian did fine in directing the recording of the backing vocals.

[mistermono]

I thought Domenic Priore was behind the whole thing. 

[Roger Ryan]

In my opinion, surely Brian and VDP are responsible for composing the new musical parts: The clarinet line to SFC, new melody to Da da etc.

Actually, the clarinet line in "Song For Children" came from the original sessions for "Look" (If I remember correctly, this was another example of the track being wiped, but Darian was able to make out the clarinet part since the instrument bled onto another track).

That part sounds vintage 66 to me but I bought this up on the board before and I think the parts that Darian heard from a headphone bleed were actually on CIFOTM not SFC. I may be wrong butI didn't think there was any evidence that the SFC melody was vintage. It definitely feels it though.

I can't recall the specifics right now, but I remember reading that the SFC clarinet line was found on the original session tapes for "Look". I think it was suggested that it was an overdub that was wiped at one point, but could still be faintly made out. I used the phrase "another example" above because, like you said, Darian was also able to make out a previously unheard Carl vocal part for CIFOTM through the headphone bleed on another track.

[andy]

Where did you hear the sequencing bit on the DVD with Brian and Darian was staged? I mean, it makes sense, but I've never heard or read that.


As far as authorship, I'd be surprised if the 'is it hot as hell' melody and lyric weren't both written by VDP, and I'd even guess that the melody in SFC and CIFOTM was partially written by VDP. They all smell like VDP with very little hints of Brian.

[andy]

Don't forget Van Dyke Parks -- he, too, was intimately involved in the creation of the album. By all reports it was an equal-parts contribution started by Darian but ultimately fuelled by Brian and Van Dyke.

He helped with the sequencing for the live show, but from everything I've heard he was completely absent and non-involved in the recording of the album.

[Roger Ryan]

Where did you hear the sequencing bit on the DVD with Brian and Darian was staged? I mean, it makes sense, but I've never heard or read that.

I don't think any of the participants have spoken about this specifically, but I believe it's been noted that Leaf didn't start filming his documentary until rehearsals began for the premier in London (after "SMiLE" had already been sequenced). The scene between Darian and Brian was shot in the same studio with the same lighting as some of Brian's interviews which were shot after the European "SMiLE" tour was complete. The only footage shot during the actual process of competing "SMiLE" for its live debut was done by Darian himself with his handycam; a small sequence showing the first meeting with Van Dyke Parks was included in "Beautiful Dreamer". Leaf's camera was allowed into Brian's home for the early rehearsals (which fascinatingly captured him in the depth of depression); had Leaf started filming his documentary earlier, it's logical to assume professionally shot footage would exist of that first meeting with Parks, the days spent sequencing the project, etc.

As it is, the footage of Darian and Brian looks like a recreation or something improvised for the camera to demonstrate how the two of them collaborated. Brian, not known for his great acting ability, simply states the obvious: "that comes before 'Surf's Up" (after Darian plays him a portion of "Child Is Father Of The Man").

As wonderful as "Beautiful Dreamer" is, imagine how good it could have had Leaf filmed the actual collaboration between Darian, Brian and Van Dyke and had access to the lost "Inside Pop" outtakes showing the recording of "Surf's Up" and "Cabin Essence" in 1966!

[Chris Brown]

I've always thought that Brian and Darian worked together on the sequencing, although this task was probably of far more interest to Darian than it was to Brian.  Brian probably had some ideas to contribute, maybe suggesting some sequences that he was toying with in '66 (the 2nd movement was clearly in Brian's head in some form at that time).  Darian probably did most of the links, although techinically Brian did too, since most of them are little bits from H&V and Surf's Up.  I don't think that there are as many new melodies (instrumental or vocal) as people think.  The melodies from Look (the chorus melody) and DaDa were already there in '66, just not in vocal form.  Darian heard at least some of an original Child melody through headphone bleed supposedly, and Brian remembered the melody from Worms.  That pretty much just leaves the "is it hot as hell in here" melody during the Water Chant and the 2nd verse of Look as being the only really new melodes.  

As far as the production goes, maybe Brian wasn't "needed", since the band knew all the parts and nothing new was being created, but since Smile was Brian's composition in the first place, having him there in some capacity was probably beneficial.  He wrote it, so he should know best how it should sound.  Darian I'm sure was prodding him along the way, in case he lost interest, but I don't really buy the idea that the material from the recording sessions was staged in any way...seems like way too much trouble to go to just to show Brian in control.  I think that Brian is just way more comfortable producing music in a studio than he is anywhere else, and they wanted to capture that on film.  He wasn't as demanding as he used to be, but still was clearly in control.  

The vocal sessions he still seemed interested, although I'm not surprised that him doing his leads wasn't shown.  I'd imagine that was a struggle at times, since it took almost 2 months supposedly to get them all done.  I think situations like that were the times when Darian helped the most, just keeping Brian going and keeping him motivated to put his all into it.  Left to his own devices, Brian probably wouldn't have been able to complete the project and have it turn out as well as it did.  Darian did a wonderful job of steering the ship; definitely an "unsung hero" as Melinda put it.

[Rocker]

Darian was also able to make out a previously unheard Carl vocal part for CIFOTM through the headphone bleed on another track.

Which one? as the melody used on BWPS an old one that had Carl singing the original?

[the captain]

Where did you hear the sequencing bit on the DVD with Brian and Darian was staged? I mean, it makes sense, but I've never heard or read that.

Are you kidding? Just watch it--hardly the same "sitting around Brian's house workshopping" as the actual "Darian-cam" footage. Staged... Kind of like Jeff gathering the band for the pep talk about "we're not trying to raise smile, but just to perform an album here..." as if they needed that talk. So much of that doc was clearly for the benefit of the cameras, it was pretty off-putting, I thought. Great to have, but just too phony.  I've said this many times and stand by it: the Beach Boys need a real documentary series of everyone saying any- and everything. Not just Brian's people, not just the rosy Beach Boys story. Everyone about every album. Hell, a full DVD of Smile would be great, including old footage of Carl (such as from the IJWMFTT stuff), anything of Dennis on the matter, and new and old footage of the others.  Never happen, but it should.

[andy]

Yeah, that's right Roger. And on top of the filming dates, it would be strange for Brian to rent out a studio just to sequence SMiLE.

I think the downer about that clip is that it makes it seem like Darian was the one who sequenced the 2nd Movement with Brian just going along. At least that's the impression I had gotten from it, and it could've been 100% Brian.


I really hope the Inside Pop footage becomes available someday. That's probably the 'holy grail' of unreleased SMiLE era stuff.

[MBE]

The doc is ok but I don't take anything some of the people involved try to promote seriously. I am not talking about Brian, Van Dyke, or Darian. I think they fairly equally brought Smile to us.

[the captain]

I think the downer about that clip is that it makes it seem like Darian was the one who sequenced the 2nd Movement with Brian just going along. At least that's the impression I had gotten from it, and it could've been 100% Brian.

This is based on nothing but an absoilute hunch on my part, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Darian did sequence that, and most of the rest besides. My somewhat sad guess is that Brian was more there to approve or disapprove than anything else at this stage. That isn't to take anything away from the brilliant music he wrote, but I think that 99.999% of Brian's input to BWPS was done 37 (or whatever) years earlier.

[Roger Ryan]

Darian was also able to make out a previously unheard Carl vocal part for CIFOTM through the headphone bleed on another track.

Which one? as the melody used on BWPS an old one that had Carl singing the original?

My understanding is it was just one of the original counterpoint vocals Carl layed down for the chorus of "Child, child, child, father of the man, father of the man". Apparently it was wiped at some point (not heard on bootleg versions), but Darian could make it out while listening to the original tapes of an overdub session (this original counterpoint vocal was picked up through the headphones of one of the Beach Boys). He then reportedly incorporated the original counterpoint vocal for the arrangement of the new, completed version of CIFOTM. I have no idea which part he was referring to; again, it's just one of the many vocal parts going on during that chorus, but it demonstrates an attention to detail which is admirable.

[Roger Ryan]

I think the downer about that clip is that it makes it seem like Darian was the one who sequenced the 2nd Movement with Brian just going along. At least that's the impression I had gotten from it, and it could've been 100% Brian.

This is based on nothing but an absoilute hunch on my part, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Darian did sequence that, and most of the rest besides. My somewhat sad guess is that Brian was more there to approve or disapprove than anything else at this stage. That isn't to take anything away from the brilliant music he wrote, but I think that 99.999% of Brian's input to BWPS was done 37 (or whatever) years earlier.

Adding to this, I would say that a lot of the sequencing is simply logical and inherent in Brian's compositions. Back in '93 I put together a version that took "Prayer" directly into "Gee" into the trumpet flourish into H & V. I also segued "Wonderful" into "Look". Why? The music seemed to demand it. The real brilliance of BWPS was in ignoring Dominic Priore's conventional wisdom (no offense intended) and sticking "Surf's Up" in the middle of the album and creating three movements. That alone makes it the ultimate fan mix for me.