What is the original? - Carl and The Passions So Tough.

[Alan Smith]

Hi Custom - no assumption needed for the Australian pressings.

The words "Manufactured in Australia" usually appears in the fine print on the bottom of the label (the stuff that reads left to right from about 7 o'clock to 4 o'clock.

What's interesting is the covers may say "Printed (or Made) in the USA" and you have to check the label in order to determine if US or not. Other times "Printed in Australia" may appear on the cover.

This NZ 15 BOs says on the back cover just to the right of the orange ring Marketed by WEA Records Limited, P.O. Box 2915 Auckland. New Zealand - so whether it was pressed in the US on consignment to WEA NZ office, I dunno. For sake of notation, the dead wax scribe is "MS2251A", "...B", the cover is not a gatefold.

On the back cover below the side 2 track list is an "A" in a black square with MS 2251 printed below the box.  I'll throw up some pics later if of interest.

PS - my UK pressing of Blue by Joni Mitchell also has the steamboat, so not sure if something that was reserved for O/S releases - A

[Custom Machine]

Thanks for the info, Alan. The Reprise steamboat label (of which there were many variations over the years) was the stock Reprise label used for releases by their various artists. As such it's of interest when it was used for Beach Boys releases on Brother/Reprise, since that was a somewhat custom label for the band. I say "somewhat" since the catalog numbers were official Reprise records catalog numbers, and the Reprise logo appeared next to the Brother "Appeal to the Great Spirit" logo, forming the combined Brother/Reprise logo.

By that time the BBs had the good sense to retain ownership of their newly recorded output, but Warner Bros/Reprise had the exclusive right to release and distribute the albums. It would be interesting to know, from a contractual standpoint, if the Brother/Reprise label was required for BB releases or merely suggested. I also wonder if the band and their management knew there were Reprise labels, rather than Brother/Reprise labels, being used in some cases, and if they were aware if they even cared. In any event, it has made for some interesting collectibles.

[Alan Smith]

And thank you, CM, for your info - about 5 minutes after I posted, I realised I was having a blonde moment about the steamboat, having seen it do laps many times while spinning a few other artist LPs.

And re my last post, wouldn't you know it, the 15 BO without the "modern" Warners Logo is actually an AU copy in a printed in USA cover, as per my own ramblings - so we can assume the AU plant hadn't been issued "new" Warner Labels, perhaps.

Anyway, thar' she blows!

[bgas]

Perhaps I'm missing the point?  

If it's only about Steamboat labels, there are many instances of them being used for BBs LPs worldwide:  Germany, Israel, UK, to name a few.  ;
mirroring Alan's example, here's the Israeli label:  
      

I'd venture it more interesting if an Lp is released withBOTH Steamboat AND  Bro-Rep labels. To complement the US entries, here's Canadian Holland:  

  

[Custom Machine]

Thanks for posting your photos, Alan & Chris.

I'm sure this gets into the business end of things far more than the great majority of BB fans would care about, but bags, since you have such an extensive collection, for a given foreign country (aka, anywhere other than the US) were the Bro/Rep and Reprise steamboat labels both seen in foreign (aka, besides the US) issues concurrently -- eg Holland or any others pressed with both the Bro/Rep and Reprise steamboat label in most countries?

Chris, when you say, "Perhaps I'm missing the point?", the point is that the BBs went to the trouble of establishing their own "boutique" Bro/Rep label, but when various 45s and LPs were released the Bro/Rep label was often not used, with the stock Reprise label being used instead. To me using the stock Reprise not so surprising with foreign releases, but was a big surprise to me when I first learned about such releases in the US.

I might seem logical to assume that when the Brother/Reprise material was first released in a country other than the US that either the Bro/Rep or Reprise label would have been used, but due to contractual agreements that was not the case with Sunflower. How about others?

Finally, while the Reprise steamboat label was used on some LPs, is it correct to assume that when that happened the album cover showed the Bro/Rep label?

[Sangheon]

From my copy's matrix number, the original lacquer may have been used for a pressing of my So tough disc?

Yes, I believe both or your discs are from the original lacquer since there is no "RECUT" notation with the matrix information.  Any number of stampers may have been made from that lacquer, but sonically they should all be virtually identical.

Lee

Thank you, Lee! I will check the site you reffered!
and I guess the reason why they didn't need Recut is the original lacquer still wasn't damaged caused the poor sales...

[Sangheon]

Thank you for posting these photos! Alan Smith and bgas!
I've never seen these photos!

 

[Alan Smith]

Perhaps I'm missing the point?  

If it's only about Steamboat labels, there are many instances of them being used for BBs LPs worldwide:  Germany, Israel, UK, to name a few.  ;

I was interested to find out if the Steamboat label thing re 15 BOs was strictly re the US printing - earlier in the thread you said: "Here are the known Steamboat LP labels( no CATP/PS or 15 BO  has surfaced)".  Reading back, I can see the context was (most likely) US printings, clear as crystal now. As you were. 

[drbeachboy]

My brown cover Pet Sounds has Warner Communications and has both catalog numbers hand etched, but no Artisan logo. It does have a double dash sideways triangle etched in the runout groove --|> (best I can do drawing here's). Any idea what that means?

[bgas]

Thanks for posting your photos, Alan & Chris.

I'm sure this gets into the business end of things far more than the great majority of BB fans would care about, but bags, since you have such an extensive collection, for a given foreign country (aka, anywhere other than the US) were the Bro/Rep and Reprise steamboat labels both seen in foreign (aka, besides the US) issues concurrently -- eg Holland or any others pressed with both the Bro/Rep and Reprise steamboat label in most countries?

Chris, when you say, "Perhaps I'm missing the point?", the point is that the BBs went to the trouble of establishing their own "boutique" Bro/Rep label, but when various 45s and LPs were released the Bro/Rep label was often not used, with the stock Reprise label being used instead. To me using the stock Reprise not so surprising with foreign releases, but was a big surprise to me when I first learned about such releases in the US.

I might seem logical to assume that when the Brother/Reprise material was first released in a country other than the US that either the Bro/Rep or Reprise label would have been used, but due to contractual agreements that was not the case with Sunflower. How about others?

Finally, while the Reprise steamboat label was used on some LPs, is it correct to assume that when that happened the album cover showed the Bro/Rep label?

 

Here's what I have for non-US issued LPs: 

Argentina--
Sunflower;   EMI-Odeon Pops  Cover and Labels   

Australia-- 
Surf's Up;  Stateside/Brother   Cover  and Labels
Holland;  Brother cover/ Bro-Rep labels   

Brazil-- 
CATP--  Reprise cover/ Bro-Rep labels 
MIU--  Warner Brothers( WB)     Cover and Labels   

Canada-- 
Surf's Up;  Bro-Rep  Cover and Labels   
Holland;  Bro-Rep  Cover and Labels
               Brother Cover/ Steamboat Labels 

France-- 
Surf's Up;  Bro-Rep  Cover and Labels   
Holland;  Brother Cover / Bro-Rep Labels 

Germany-- 
Surf's Up;  Stateside/Brother  Cover and Labels   
CATP;  Bro-Rep Cover/ Steamboat Labels 
Holland;   Brother Cover/ Steamboat Labels   
MIU;  Bro-Rep cover/ Steamboat Labels   

Great Britain-- 
Sunflower; Stateside/ Brother   Cover and Labels   
Surf's Up;    Stateside/ Brother   Cover and Labels   
CATP;  Bro-Rep Cover/ Steamboat Labels   
Holland;  Bro-Rep cover/ Steamboat labels 
15 Big Ones;   Bro-Rep Cover and Labels 
Love You;  Reprise/ WEA cover/ Bro-Rep Labels   

Holland( Netherlands)-- 
Sunflower;  Stateside/Brother Cover and Labels   
Holland;  Brother Cover/ Bro-Rep labels   
Love You;  Reprise/WEA cover/ Bro-Rep labels 

Israel--
Holland; Brother cover/ Steamboat Labels 
15 Big Ones; Brother Cover/ Steamboat Labels 

Japan--
Sunflower;   Stateside Cover/ Stateside-  Brother labels
In Concert; Reprise Cover and Labels( tho I only have a Promo copy)

(South) Korea-- 
Sunflower;  Sung Eum Cover and Labels

South Africa-- 
Sunflower;  Stateside/ Brother    Cover and Labels   
Holland;  Brother Cover / Steamboat Labels   
In Concert;  Reprise/WB cover  /Steamboat labels   ( Only issue I've ever seen with a promo sticker on the cover crediting Blondie and Ricky of " The Flames" )
Love You;  WB/WEA  Cover and Labels 

Venezuela-- 
Sunflower;  EMI- Brother Cover/  EMI- Odeon Labels   

[Custom Machine]

Wow, thanks for the detailed info, Chris. Great collection!

Now if you'll just post a scan or photo of every BB album you own, both cover and label, so we can see exactly what they look like!

Oops, sorry, lost my head! But keep those scans coming whenever you're in the mood.

[Sangheon]

I guess it would be really nice if we have the thread that anyone can upload the photo of the labels, the matrix number and the covers each their own album.

[LeeDempsey]

My brown cover Pet Sounds has Warner Coommicatons and has both catalog numbers hand etched, but no Artisan logo. It does have a double dash sideways triangle etched in the runout groove --|> (best I can do drawing here's). Any idea what that means?

Hmm, I'm not familiar with that one.  This symbol --<|  (shaped like a wine glass on its side) indicates that a Capitol album was pressed in Capitol Records' Winchester, Virginia plant.  It's actually supposed to represent the stock and barrel of a Winchester rifle...

Here's the best reference I've found to pressing plant symbols:

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Record-Pressing-Plants/213755?limit=250&page=1

Lee

[drbeachboy]

Thanks Lee, that's the one. So, much for my memory and art skills.

[LeeDempsey]

Found this here:  http://www.apollomasters.com/story.html

"...Audio Devices set up their first manufacturing plant in a house in New York City. They didn't start production of blank lacquer discs until August 1938. Sometime later (we have no date) they moved the plant to another house in Glenbrook, Connecticut. They continued to make lacquer discs at Glenbrook until around 1972, when Audio Devices was bought by Capitol Records.

In 1974 Capitol Records built a new facility for lacquer disc manufacturing in Winchester, Virginia. At that time, Capitol Records had a record and tape manufacturing plant as well as a distribution center on their 40 acre site."

So IMO this would indicate an East Coast pressing.  I would assume that Audio Devices in CT did the pressing plates for Warner/Reprise, and then with the sale it shifted to Capitol's new facility in Winchester, VA.  The timing works with the brown cover Brother/Reprise PET SOUNDS release.

Lee

[Custom Machine]

Here's the best reference I've found to pressing plant symbols:

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Record-Pressing-Plants/213755?limit=250&page=1

Lee

Thanks for the link, Lee. So now I finally know what the "LW" in my Bro/Rep albums stands for, Capitol Records pressing plant Los Angeles, for Warner Bros.

[The Shift]

This kind of thread sends my head in a spin… phenomenal stuff, chaps, I am gobsmacked at the level of attention and detail, and grateful for what is shared here, even if joining in on any level is way beyond my ability.

If you started discussing the differences in air density within the centre holes of different 45rpm pressings of Mess of Help… singles, I would no longer be surprised.

[Andrew G. Doe]

If you started discussing the differences in air density within the centre holes of different 45rpm pressings of Mess of Help… singles, I would no longer be surprised.

Well, given that the center hole of a US 45 is significantly larger than that of a UK single, that density would, of course, be proportionately lower. Southern hemisphere pressings are another can of worms entirely, as the Coriolis Effect has to betaken into account.  

In space, of course, no-one can hear you scream, so the point is moot.