Star Wars: The Force Awakens

[Emily]

So many great 70s movies.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

So many great 70s movies.

Now there's an excellent thread waiting to happen!

[Emily]

Mujan, I sense that I'm about halfway between you and Mr. Verlander. You seem to have better recall and more attention to detail and a better sense of theme than I do, but I suspect I'm fussier than Mr. Verlander. Mr. Verlander's review gave me some hope, but I'm still wary!

[Emily]

So many great 70s movies.

Now there's an excellent thread waiting to happen!

I'll try to think of a kick-off.

[Jcc]

Mujan,

You're not wrong, but there's no way any studio (for justifiable reasons) is going to throw tens of millions of dollars at some young, unproven director with big ideas and no track record.  It's an incredible risk for the entire studio if the movie bombs.  Sure, maybe the movie becomes as successful as Star Wars or ET or Jaws or Raiders of the Lost Ark...or it turns into Heavens Gate.  Which, by the way, is what ended the glorious era in American movies which you cite.  That film literally killed United Artists as an independent studio, even though MGM (its new corporate owner) revived the name later on.  And even then, the studio was gambling on Michael Cimino, who already had a proven success with Deer Hunter.

A movie or franchise like Star Wars could still be made today, but you'd need a filmmaker with a proven record of success, even if his record was just making incredibly successful Indie films.  At the same time, I don't think the original Star Wars was necessarily over budget or expensive to make.  Lucas used puppets, model spacecraft, and London soundstages (aside from the Tunisian scenes).   To prove my point, I would cite the Lord of the Rings trilogy.  New Line Cinema literally bet the entire farm on Fellowship of the Ring, and on a director who was somewhat well-known but certainly no Spielberg.  If Fellowship had bombed, that would have been the end of Jackson and New Line.  But the gamble paid off.

Besides, you should be hoping Star Wars makes billions for Disney.  A wealthy studio with lots of cash is a lot more likely to greenlight experiments because they can afford to bear the risk if the "hot young filmmaker" turns out to be not quite so hot.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Mujan,

You're not wrong, but there's no way any studio (for justifiable reasons) is going to throw tens of millions of dollars at some young, unproven director with big ideas and no track record.  It's an incredible risk for the entire studio if the movie bombs.  Sure, maybe the movie becomes as successful as Star Wars or ET or Jaws or Raiders of the Lost Ark...or it turns into Heavens Gate.  Which, by the way, is what ended the glorious era in American movies which you cite.  That film literally killed United Artists as an independent studio, even though MGM (its new corporate owner) revived the name later on.  And even then, the studio was gambling on Michael Cimino, who already had a proven success with Deer Hunter.

A movie or franchise like Star Wars could still be made today, but you'd need a filmmaker with a proven record of success, even if his record was just making incredibly successful Indie films.  At the same time, I don't think the original Star Wars was necessarily over budget or expensive to make.  Lucas used puppets, model spacecraft, and London soundstages (aside from the Tunisian scenes).   To prove my point, I would cite the Lord of the Rings trilogy.  New Line Cinema literally bet the entire farm on Fellowship of the Ring, and on a director who was somewhat well-known but certainly no Spielberg.  If Fellowship had bombed, that would have been the end of Jackson and New Line.  But the gamble paid off.

Besides, you should be hoping Star Wars makes billions for Disney.  A wealthy studio with lots of cash is a lot more likely to greenlight experiments because they can afford to bear the risk if the "hot young filmmaker" turns out to be not quite so hot.

Possibly. Or it could convince them that the way forward is more bland generic rehashes. Either way, this movie is making bank so its a moot point.

Maybe not every movie (or half of all movies or whatever it is now) needs to cost a quarter to a third of a billion dollars and be a big special effects extravaganza? Maybe rather than buy Star Wars and Marvel, big studios could just...you know...make their own sci-fi/fantasy stories? Thats my beef with the whole situation. Why not make a few dozen lower budget films with great scripts that tell deeper stories? Sure, some of them may flop. But if a $10 million to $50 million movie flops its a drop in the bucket. To a big studio like Disney, its literally peanuts. And out of say a dozen or so of those, at least 1 to 3 are statistically likely to be big surprise hits that could possibly launch new franchises people arent getting sick of. Thats planning for the future, thats allowing for new talent to prove themselves so the Lucas' and Spielberg's and Cameron's of the future have an opportunity to learn and test their chops. Not to mention new actors. Hopefully youre right and this big monster success will be used to fund more low risk, high creativity projects like that. Im skeptical, but I hope Im wrong.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The only thing I can see happening that allows for more consistent production of creative and experimental movies is the same thing that happened the last time: the collapse of the studios.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The only thing I can see happening that allows for more consistent production of creative and experimental movies is the same thing that happened the last time: the collapse of the studios.

Or else another surprise success from a young independent hotshot, like with Bonnie and Clyde or Pulp Fiction.

Coincidentally, the sinking of the studios--at least one of them--may not be far off. Lucas and Spielberg have alluded to this. And it explains why 2 out of every 3 movies these days, or so it seems, is a safe marketable reboot or sequel of an established property. Most studios cant afford a big flop so theyre afraid to take risks. Ironically, if they followed my advice and just lay off the 250 million dollar shlock-fests with a 200 million dollar ad campaign they wouldnt need every picture to be a hit to stay afloat.

The real medium to follow these days is TV, not film. And again, this isnt me talking out of my ass. People in show business have been saying as much for a few years now. If you want to tell a great story with relative creative control and plenty of time to flesh out the plot and develop good characters--put it on TV, especially Netflix, HBO and AMC. Thats where the foreseeable future of motion pictures are. Ive enjoyed Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Community and others far more than ANY movie Ive seen in theaters the past 10~15 years, personally. The only films Ive really enjoyed in that time span, and enough to buy on DVD/bluray and watch again and again, are Quentin Tarantino and Chris Nolan's movies, along with the original Pirates of the Caribbean. I honestly cant think of anything else, tho admittedly there may be one or two others that arent coming to mind right now.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The real medium to follow these days is TV, not film. And again, this isnt me talking out of my ass. People in show business have been saying as much for a few years now. If you want to tell a great story with relative creative control and plenty of time to flesh out the plot and develop good characters--put it on TV, especially Netflix, HBO and AMC. Thats where the foreseeable future of motion pictures are. Ive enjoyed Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Community and others far more than ANY movie Ive seen in theaters the past 10~15 years, personally. The only films Ive really enjoyed in that time span, and enough to buy on DVD/bluray and watch again and again, are Quentin Tarantino and Chris Nolan's movies, along with the original Pirates of the Caribbean. I honestly cant think of anything else, tho admittedly there may be one or two others that arent coming to mind right now.

TV has definitely been at its best in the last 10-15 years. And while film has definitely not been at its best (far from it), I do think there have been some great movies out since 2001. I've opened the file on my computer I have of favourite movies so that explains the chronological accuracy of the list:

Amelie, Ghost World, Mulholland Drive, Y Tu Mama Tambien, Dirty Pretty Things, Closer, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, The Squid and the Whale, Water, After the Wedding, I'm Not There, There Will Be Blood, Synecdoche New York, A Serious Man, Fantastic Mr. Fox, The Informant!, Inglourious Basterds, Hugo, The Tree of Life, Django Unchained, Frances Ha, Nebraska, The Grand Budapest Hotel,  The Big Short

That's not a complete list but, in my opinion, makes for some pretty fantastic watching. Can't say I'm a big fan of Nolan to be honest, but people I respect love him so what do I know.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

The real medium to follow these days is TV, not film. And again, this isnt me talking out of my ass. People in show business have been saying as much for a few years now. If you want to tell a great story with relative creative control and plenty of time to flesh out the plot and develop good characters--put it on TV, especially Netflix, HBO and AMC. Thats where the foreseeable future of motion pictures are. Ive enjoyed Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones, Community and others far more than ANY movie Ive seen in theaters the past 10~15 years, personally. The only films Ive really enjoyed in that time span, and enough to buy on DVD/bluray and watch again and again, are Quentin Tarantino and Chris Nolan's movies, along with the original Pirates of the Caribbean. I honestly cant think of anything else, tho admittedly there may be one or two others that arent coming to mind right now.

TV has definitely been at its best in the last 10-15 years. And while film has definitely not been at its best (far from it), I do think there have been some great movies out since 2001. I've opened the file on my computer I have of favourite movies so that explains the chronological accuracy of the list:

Amelie, Ghost World, Mulholland Drive, Y Tu Mama Tambien, Dirty Pretty Things, Closer, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, The Squid and the Whale, Water, After the Wedding, I'm Not There, There Will Be Blood, Synecdoche New York, A Serious Man, Fantastic Mr. Fox, The Informant!, Inglourious Basterds, Hugo, The Tree of Life, Django Unchained, Frances Ha, Nebraska, The Grand Budapest Hotel,  The Big Short

That's not a complete list but, in my opinion, makes for some pretty fantastic watching. Can't say I'm a big fan of Nolan to be honest, but people I respect love him so what do I know.

To be fair, while I love it, Inception is overrated. And Dark Knight Rises sucked.

Anyway, thanks for the list. Ill check some of those out sometime

[Douchepool]

A personal favorite from the 2000s is About Schmidt. Nicholson was robbed of the Oscar for that one.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

A personal favorite from the 2000s is About Schmidt. Nicholson was robbed of the Oscar for that one.

That was a good one too, absolutely.

[Paul J B]

I just saw this movie and although I liked it to an extent the more I think about it.....it was pretty disappointing. So much was a total rip off of the original that I feel like I was ripped off. All of these years and all of these people involved and this is the best story they could come up with? Seriously...a death star weapon for a THIRD time. Hamill pops in at the end for a cameo and does not say a word? The new actors were all fine, especially Rey, but they totally blew an opportunity to do something with the original three. I'm glad Lucas was not involved in this because he was also out of ideas 35 years ago, but this new writer/director team is no better.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I just saw this movie and although I liked it to an extent the more I think about it.....it was pretty disappointing. So much was a total rip off of the original that I feel like I was ripped off. All of these years and all of these people involved and this is the best story they could come up with? Seriously...a death star weapon for a THIRD time. Hamill pops in at the end for a cameo and does not say a word? The new actors were all fine, especially Rey, but they totally blew an opportunity to do something with the original three. I'm glad Lucas was not involved in this because he was also out of ideas 35 years ago, but this new writer/director team is no better.

Join us on the Dark side, brother! 

Honestly I think this is a very common reaction with this film and a lot of JJ's other works. They entertain but they dont impress. You walk away saying "yeah, that was alright. It was fun" but after you go home and analyze what you just saw, and the hype and fun die down, you realize it wasnt that good. Not enough to justify all the blanket praise everyone else seems to be heaping on it. I expect this consensus to emerge over time.

The only thing I would disagree on is that Lucas is out of ideas. Say what you will about his directing and scripts, but the man is a great idea guy. Hes good at coming up with a big picture for others to flesh out and make into great movies. He may not have written the script, but it was his idea for all the broad strokes in Empire. I think thats where Disney really dropped the ball with this. Lucas wrote broad outlines that Im sure were good or at least better than this rehash and shouldve been used. It comes off as really ungrateful and hypocritical of Abrams and company to throw out his ideas, and not-so-subtly take a swipe at him "this will begin to make things right" in the new movie if the best they could do is rip off his earlier ideas. And Ill say this too, looking at Lucas' recent interviews shows hes a smart guy who understands how lousy the industry has become mostly because of Star Wars itself. He's not a moron. Abrams on the other hand...watching his interviews just makes me roll my eyes because this guy has no clue what hes doing and I think got in over his head with this. 

[Paul J B]

I just saw this movie and although I liked it to an extent the more I think about it.....it was pretty disappointing. So much was a total rip off of the original that I feel like I was ripped off. All of these years and all of these people involved and this is the best story they could come up with? Seriously...a death star weapon for a THIRD time. Hamill pops in at the end for a cameo and does not say a word? The new actors were all fine, especially Rey, but they totally blew an opportunity to do something with the original three. I'm glad Lucas was not involved in this because he was also out of ideas 35 years ago, but this new writer/director team is no better.

Join us on the Dark side, brother! 

Honestly I think this is a very common reaction with this film and a lot of JJ's other works. They entertain but they dont impress. You walk away saying "yeah, that was alright. It was fun" but after you go home and analyze what you just saw, and the hype and fun die down, you realize it wasnt that good. Not enough to justify all the blanket praise everyone else seems to be heaping on it. I expect this consensus to emerge over time.

The only thing I would disagree on is that Lucas is out of ideas. Say what you will about his directing and scripts, but the man is a great idea guy. Hes good at coming up with a big picture for others to flesh out and make into great movies. He may not have written the script, but it was his idea for all the broad strokes in Empire. I think thats where Disney really dropped the ball with this. Lucas wrote broad outlines that Im sure were good or at least better than this rehash and shouldve been used. It comes off as really ungrateful and hypocritical of Abrams and company to throw out his ideas, and not-so-subtly take a swipe at him "this will begin to make things right" in the new movie if the best they could do is rip off his earlier ideas. And Ill say this too, looking at Lucas' recent interviews shows hes a smart guy who understands how lousy the industry has become mostly because of Star Wars itself. He's not a moron. Abrams on the other hand...watching his interviews just makes me roll my eyes because this guy has no clue what hes doing and I think got in over his head with this. 

I'm not confident Lucas would have led to something great...wasn't Phantom Menace his story line? I could be wrong though. In any case if it was supposed to be a remake or reboot it should have been billed that way. This was the "next" installment....except it wasn't...why oh why are people involved in Hollywood so ignorant so often. It's youtube so take with a grain of salt, but the link below takes you to an honest calm approach as to why this film failed on so many levels. The guy touches mostly on the way it was a carbon copy from A New Hope but there is so much more wrong with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPgtvVTmJMg

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I just saw this movie and although I liked it to an extent the more I think about it.....it was pretty disappointing. So much was a total rip off of the original that I feel like I was ripped off. All of these years and all of these people involved and this is the best story they could come up with? Seriously...a death star weapon for a THIRD time. Hamill pops in at the end for a cameo and does not say a word? The new actors were all fine, especially Rey, but they totally blew an opportunity to do something with the original three. I'm glad Lucas was not involved in this because he was also out of ideas 35 years ago, but this new writer/director team is no better.

Join us on the Dark side, brother! 

Honestly I think this is a very common reaction with this film and a lot of JJ's other works. They entertain but they dont impress. You walk away saying "yeah, that was alright. It was fun" but after you go home and analyze what you just saw, and the hype and fun die down, you realize it wasnt that good. Not enough to justify all the blanket praise everyone else seems to be heaping on it. I expect this consensus to emerge over time.

The only thing I would disagree on is that Lucas is out of ideas. Say what you will about his directing and scripts, but the man is a great idea guy. Hes good at coming up with a big picture for others to flesh out and make into great movies. He may not have written the script, but it was his idea for all the broad strokes in Empire. I think thats where Disney really dropped the ball with this. Lucas wrote broad outlines that Im sure were good or at least better than this rehash and shouldve been used. It comes off as really ungrateful and hypocritical of Abrams and company to throw out his ideas, and not-so-subtly take a swipe at him "this will begin to make things right" in the new movie if the best they could do is rip off his earlier ideas. And Ill say this too, looking at Lucas' recent interviews shows hes a smart guy who understands how lousy the industry has become mostly because of Star Wars itself. He's not a moron. Abrams on the other hand...watching his interviews just makes me roll my eyes because this guy has no clue what hes doing and I think got in over his head with this. 

I'm not confident Lucas would have led to something great...wasn't Phantom Menace his story line? I could be wrong though. In any case if it was supposed to be a remake or reboot it should have been billed that way. This was the "next" installment....except it wasn't...why oh why are people involved in Hollywood so ignorant so often. It's youtube so take with a grain of salt, but the link below takes you to an honest calm approach as to why this film failed on so many levels. The guy touches mostly on the way it was a carbon copy from A New Hope but there is so much more wrong with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPgtvVTmJMg

Because if they did, they wouldnt be making a billion dollars right now with next to no effort put in creatively.

Yes, it was. Say what you will about the Prequels tho, the basic ideas were mostly very good. It was the execution--the script and direction--which sucked. But the basic plot of a great noble knight tragically seduced by the dark side, and a scheming mastermind playing both sides of a war for his own gain, the fall of the Jedi, the political intrigue, even the basic idea of the neo-noir type detective story with Obi-Wan in Episode 2...it all couldve been really good. He just needed another Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas and Irvin Kershner to help with the story, editing and directing respectively. But the basic story outlines for ALL the movies have been his. People act like he had nothing to do with Empire because he didnt write or direct, but the general outline of the story was his, and it was very good. Id certainly like to at least read his outline, but Im sure it'll never be seen--hes probably under some non disclosure agreement about it, and they dont want to release it because they dont want people second guessing "Hey, this actually mightve made for a better story." Id certainly prefer even a mediocre new story to an unimaginative remake billed as a sequel as you say. The fan speculation and old EU novels provided some good material to work from if they were out of ideas. It wouldnt have been that hard to do something new and good. But this is what JJ does. Look at Star Trek Into Darkness, its a shameless Wrath of Khan ripoff. And you can literally feel the corporate overlords behind the scenes ("make sure there's a reference to Darth Vader, and the Falcon, and C3PO...gotta have a desert landscape, and a new Death Star--the fans like that stuff."

[Paul J B]

I know Lucas was responsible for most of the narrative in the first 3. Not sure if it was him or who exactly,  but the people that thought Phantom Menace should be in large part the story of a little kid in what amounts to a go cart race should be ashamed of themselves. Kids swarmed to the original 3 without a little kid character to relate to. That and the terrible actor that played teenage/twenty something Anakin is the main reason the prequels are hard to sit through.

Speaking of Abrams and Star Trek, that was equally horrible having Kirk as a kid steal a car, especially after the fallout from Phantom Menace and that kid. These Hollywood big wigs are clueless buffoons. No one needs or wants to see the main character in a sci- if fantasy action film as a kid.  I did not see Into Darkness but know from word of mouth it's a Kahn ripoff. I now know why so many people were upset when they heard Abrams would at the helm for Star Wars 7. What I'm puzzled about is why more people don't seem to think its a big disappointment.

And speaking of Batman, Batman Begins has a kid in it but surprisingly that worked. That whole trilogy was excellent as far as that genre goes. Instead of letting well enough alone we will now get a crap Batman with Ben Afflek. I'll pass thanks.

[Emily]

Say what you will about the Prequels tho, the basic ideas were mostly very good. It was the execution--the script and direction--which sucked. But the basic plot of a great noble knight tragically seduced by the dark side, and a scheming mastermind playing both sides of a war for his own gain, the fall of the Jedi, the political intrigue, even the basic idea of the neo-noir type detective story with Obi-Wan in Episode 2...it all couldve been really good. He just needed another Gary Kurtz, Marcia Lucas and Irvin Kershner to help with the story, editing and directing respectively.

I agree with the above.

I know Lucas was responsible for most of the narrative in the first 3. Not sure if it was him or who exactly,  but the people that thought Phantom Menace should be in large part the story of a little kid in what amounts to a go cart race should be ashamed of themselves. Kids swarmed to the original 3 without a little kid character to relate to. That and the terrible actor that played teenage/twenty something Anakin is the main reason the prequels are hard to sit through.

But boy do I also agree with this.

[Jim V.]

I have to say Mujan, it seems like while you make a few good points, that you always seem to know better than the creators of the material that you seem to like on one level or another. For instance, even though Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks got together and finished SMiLE in their opinion, that it's somehow not acceptable to you, even though they, you know, wrote fuckin' "Heroes and Villains" and "Surf's Up" and "Child Is Father Of The Man." And as far as I know, you haven't.

Then with Star Wars, I think it's possible you forgot that the franchise was not stolen from him in the middle of the night. In fact, he was paid a heck of a lot of money for it. He very well could have kept things how they were and made his own new trilogy. Or he could have chosen to leave well enough alone.

Now don't get me wrong, this board is about many things, including different ideas and theories about SMiLE and The Beach Boys. But things are how they are. And if these things are so offensive to your sensibilities, I invite you to make better music and/or movies.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I have to say Mujan, it seems like while you make a few good points, that you always seem to know better than the creators of the material that you seem to like on one level or another. For instance, even though Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks got together and finished SMiLE in their opinion, that it's somehow not acceptable to you, even though they, you know, wrote fuckin' "Heroes and Villains" and "Surf's Up" and "Child Is Father Of The Man." And as far as I know, you haven't.

Then with Star Wars, I think it's possible you forgot that the franchise was not stolen from him in the middle of the night. In fact, he was paid a heck of a lot of money for it. He very well could have kept things how they were and made his own new trilogy. Or he could have chosen to leave well enough alone.

Now don't get me wrong, this board is about many things, including different ideas and theories about SMiLE and The Beach Boys. But things are how they are. And if these things are so offensive to your sensibilities, I invite you to make better music and/or movies.

SMiLE, the 66/67 album is pretty up for grabs. Im totally aware that Im probably annoying a lot of people with my adamant opinions and the way I phrase them, but its just my manner of speaking. I dont think its necessary to say IMO after every sentence or whatever, and if I think my opinion is right and yours is wrong, Im gonna argue my side. It may turn some people off, but...hey...thats me. Im here to get my theories on the matter out there, because many of them Ive never seen anyone propose before and I believe they deserve to be considered, and Im also here to possibly learn some things on the subject that I didnt before. FWIW, this board has been a great reasource for that. Im not here to make friends. I realize some people really like BWPS and consider it the final word. Thats great, and dont let some joker on a board ruin that for you. But for me, based on what Ive read, my playing around with the music for a few years off and on now, my own sensibilities, and speculation, I strongly feel SMiLE is different than BWPS. And being that this is a forum which discusses such things, I come here to speak my piece on the matter. I wasnt aware you had to be a recorded artist to have an opinion on such things. Guess we better ban all discussion that isnt blind praise of all material as is  

Anyway, with this movie...I think it sucked. That really shouldnt bother anyone who liked it a lot--its making more money than anything ever and for some reason is in the 90s on RT last I checked. I would think most fans would be laughing at the little people like me, so oviously outvoted. But that doesnt change the fact that Lucas for all his faults was a good idea guy and wrote outlines for what he wanted to happen--which I suspect he was under the impression Disney might use--that got thrown out. And then, just to rub his face in it, the first line of the new movie is a flick in his nose and they blow up Courascant and I believe Naboo as well (the two most prominent new Prequel planets) just to spit in his face. I think its a fair opinion to say thats pretty damn cold and unnecessary. And Im starting to see the public opinion on Lucas shift again. He was beloved, then hated after the Special Editions and Prequels, but now after (to some) Episode 7 was a disappointment, and again these jabs at him, and also his recent interviews were he comes off not only as very intelligent and down to earth but also kinda upset over the situation, I think people's opinions are resting more in the middle now. Mine certainly are. My honest thoughts are that he wanted the franchise to live on and knew the fans would prefer it if they didnt under him. But you can tell hes not too happy in the new movie or where the franchise seems to be headed. Hes called it a divorce even--and if you know how badly he was hurt by his real life divorce which most friends say he's never gotten over, you realize the significance of that word choice. I just think the whole situation is very sad, and I think Lucas is a very flawed but ultimately tragic man in many ways. Yes yes, hes rich. But money doesnt buy happiness. And he donated that money from the sale to charity, so props for that. I realize he didnt technically have to sell but my impression is that in his mind he actually did feel that way. And I shouldnt have to be a professional filmmaker to say so.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I know Lucas was responsible for most of the narrative in the first 3. Not sure if it was him or who exactly,  but the people that thought Phantom Menace should be in large part the story of a little kid in what amounts to a go cart race should be ashamed of themselves. Kids swarmed to the original 3 without a little kid character to relate to. That and the terrible actor that played teenage/twenty something Anakin is the main reason the prequels are hard to sit through.

Speaking of Abrams and Star Trek, that was equally horrible having Kirk as a kid steal a car, especially after the fallout from Phantom Menace and that kid. These Hollywood big wigs are clueless buffoons. No one needs or wants to see the main character in a sci- if fantasy action film as a kid.  I did not see Into Darkness but know from word of mouth it's a Kahn ripoff. I now know why so many people were upset when they heard Abrams would at the helm for Star Wars 7. What I'm puzzled about is why more people don't seem to think its a big disappointment.

And speaking of Batman, Batman Begins has a kid in it but surprisingly that worked. That whole trilogy was excellent as far as that genre goes. Instead of letting well enough alone we will now get a crap Batman with Ben Afflek. I'll pass thanks.

I agree. Thats a huge problem with the prequels--wasting a whole movie on little kid Anakin and Qui Gon doing things Obi Wan shouldve done. Someone very early on shouldve scrapped that and had 2 and 3 be stretched out over 3 movies not 2. The thing which kinda almost maybe redeems 1 for me is the Darth Jar Jar theory. If you havent, look it up on Reddit and there are many Youtube videos as well. Basically the theory is Jar Jar was a Sith lord who conspired to lead the Jedi to Anakin. Im not gonna go into all the evidence, but there actually is a lot. If you read the original Reddit post and comments (which add things the original poster missed) it makes a lot of sense even tho Im sure it sounds like a lame joke to you now. The idea is, there was going to be a twist in 2 where Jar Jar reveals himself--akin to the big I am your Father reveal in 5. But the backlash against Jar Jar was SO great that either Lucas abandoned the idea for fear of alienating fans more, or else someone else FINALLY stepped in and said "No George, bad idea" (which shouldve happened about 100 times during Episode 1's production) because they feared having him be prominent in 2 again would kill box office returns since he was so despised. The actor who played Jar Jar has confirmed this theory on Twitter, fwiw. He also confirmed extensive rewrites to the later 2 prequels because of the backlash. Some speculate that the lame, undeveloped Count Dooku character was a semi-last minute attempt to fix the script; that Jar Jar was originally going to do what Dooku does in the movie, including fighting Yoda. That wouldve been a FANTASTIC reveal if done right. Remember, Obi Wan is a detective in that movie trying to find out whos trying to kill Padme. Imagine how shocking if the answer was the bumbling fool everyone's been misjudging all along. And he gives powers to the Chancellor in that movie too.

Even if this theory is actually wrong...its amazing to think about. I honestly think had this idea been executed well (again, thats the key) it wouldve helped make the prequels just as awesome as the originals. So...yeah. Say what you will about his directing and dialog, but Lucas is undeniably a great visionary. Contrast with Abrams who's a competent director and decent enough script writer...but no storyteller, much less visionary. 

[Jim V.]

I realize some people really like BWPS and consider it the final word.

This is what I don't get. "Some people" consider BWPS the final word? It's Brian Wilson's final word on his music. Not yours. You have nothing to do with that music besides the fact that you are a listener. You can play around with it all you want but it's not your intellectual property. I guess you can choose to live in an alternate reality where Brian didn't issue BWPS or even his "second" final world, The SMiLE Sessions, but it's not reality. I suppose I could choose to live in an alternate reality where George W. Bush was never President, Dr. Dre released more albums and I got to see Michael Jackson perform live. But alas, things are what they are and you can't unmake them just because you don't like what happened.

And anyways, I don't totally disagree with you about SMiLE and what it coulda been. I much prefer that it woulda been finished in 1966 or 1967. But it wasn't. I would change things in the new Star Wars. In fact, it probably woulda made a lot of sense and been nice if they at least used Lucas' framework for the sequels. But as I said, he sold it. And I don't wanna hear that "oh, he had to for this reason or that" cuz he didn't. He must have made the rationalization in his head that this was the best way forward. So nope, I don't feel for him at all, just as I have to say that as much as the Mike and Bruce show has kinda embarrassed me as a Beach Boys fan, I don't feel for Brian as much as I maybe would when he says he feels like he got fired. Because HE is the one that basically gave the group's name to Mike all those years ago. And he didn't do it during his Landy years or in any other compromised era. He did it around 1998 or whatever. And unfortunately for us, he made that deal and now he and Al and the fans have to deal with it.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I realize some people really like BWPS and consider it the final word.

This is what I don't get. "Some people" consider BWPS the final word? It's Brian Wilson's final word on his music. Not yours. You have nothing to do with that music besides the fact that you are a listener. You can play around with it all you want but it's not your intellectual property. I guess you can choose to live in an alternate reality where Brian didn't issue BWPS or even his "second" final world, The SMiLE Sessions, but it's not reality. I suppose I could choose to live in an alternate reality where George W. Bush was never President, Dr. Dre released more albums and I got to see Michael Jackson perform live. But alas, things are what they are and you can't unmake them just because you don't like what happened.

Well, this is just where you and I differ. I subscribe to the death of the artist/author school of thought when it comes to media/artistic criticism. That means, once its out there, its for everyone to take what they want from it. This is especially so with SMiLE, with two separate projects worked on at completely different times, in different circumstances with different bands to perform in different contexts--celebratory live show vs psychedelic modular album. I dont get why that bothers you so much, you have BWPS as your final word to enjoy and I have my theories and pieces to play with to make what I consider to be my own. Its not even that I dont like what happened--its awesome Brian was able to finish it as it pleased him. Im happy a genuinely cool musician like Darian could help out and live the dream. And its great VDP came back and was able to see it through as well. The whole things like something out of a storybook and the perfect cap to Brian's career Id say. I just think the 60s album wouldve been much different--and I prefer it--so I think its worth trying to restore as faithfully as possible although admittedly a lot of speculation and even guesswork and opinion comes into play.

Anyway, this probably isnt the best thread to go on about this.

[Jim V.]

Well, this is just where you and I differ. I subscribe to the death of the artist/author school of thought when it comes to media/artistic criticism. That means, once its out there, its for everyone to take what they want from it.

Wait. So if someone decide that Pet Sounds would be better if they deleted all the tracks and instead had a 40 minute long "Trombone Dixie" that would be just as valid a representation of Pet Sounds as the masterpiece that Brian released in the 1960s?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Well, this is just where you and I differ. I subscribe to the death of the artist/author school of thought when it comes to media/artistic criticism. That means, once its out there, its for everyone to take what they want from it.

Wait. So if someone decide that Pet Sounds would be better if they deleted all the tracks and instead had a 40 minute long "Trombone Dixie" that would be just as valid a representation of Pet Sounds as the masterpiece that Brian released in the 1960s?

To that person, I suppose. Why would that bother you? Theyre free to listen to that and you can listen to Pet Sounds as you know it. I dont see the need to be so upset by it.

But I think SMiLE and other lost/unfinished albums are a special case. Typically death of the artist means that once something is released, their own analysis means nothing. Its up to everyone to take whatever meaning they want to. It usually doesnt mean "tear out a bunch of pages and write something new in" but in the case of something like SMiLE, where all the pieces are available to you, plenty of evidence of differences from how it eventually turned out, and even Mark and Alan talking about rolling your own...I think its a circumstance where its absolutely fine to do a fanmix. TCM releases old movies like Greed that were recut after the director finished it with still images and narration (since the original lost scenes are gone) to try to recreate what is believed the original wouldve been. Audiophiles Im sure remix tracks to better fit their tastes all the time--there are stereo mixes made of Beach Boys recordings for instance. And many, like myself, prefer listening to songs like California Girls without the lyrics. In the Pet Sounds box you get everything in pieces so that you can make the lyrics louder as opposed to the music or whatever else suits you. Fan games are made of old classics like Super Metroid and Super Mario World by hacking the originals code. Some of these are even better than the original games. In all cases, its not about supplanting the officially released, so much as celebrating it. You call it fan fiction...maybe it is. But so what? There's some good fan fiction out there too. Getting back to, y'know, STAR WARS I personally think the ideas fans were coming with before Episode 7 were a lot better than what we got. I also think this Darth Jar Jar theory, even if totally false, adds a lot of depth and intrigue into Episode 1 that wasnt there without it. Once again, I really dont see why such things should bother you so much. Enjoy the originally released stuff if thats what you want to do. And with that, I think this conversation is over. Either we agree or agree to disagree, but its not fair to all the other people here to derail this thread with a conversation that could easily continue on the main board. There's like 4 active SMiLE threads going now.