Record Collector

[drbeachboy]

I think one of the issues with Mike, and why the criticism seems incessant, is that some of the things people don’t like about him are continual, on-going issues. It isn’t just one time where a bad decision was made, or one interview where someone thinks something said was out of line.

He has continually been pretty unapologetic about, well, most everything. Above all else, the lack of apparent ability to admit a mistake or flaw that concerns him and only him is at the root of a lot of it, I think.

I think harping on one specific thing does get tired. In a few cases, Mike has changed course rendering a specific criticism invalid. The setlists would be the main example. While the underlying context of his live presentation is a separate issue and debatable, one can no longer call him the “traveling jukebox” where he “only plays the hits.”

But if someone thinks he is overly-defensive, unwilling to admit personal flaws or mistakes, and so on, those are ongoing things that haven’t as yet gone away.

I have seen few “band” fan communities where a specific band member is shown so much disdain. I think that fact means fans should engage in some self-reflection and think about whether we’re being too hard, or whether we’re letting negativity overrun the enjoyment of the band and its music. But having such a large contingent of fans be so negative about him isn’t all some horrible misunderstanding. Mike causes A LOT of that.

Mike causes nothing. He is entitled to think and feel just like any of us. It is on you and only you if you take that much offense over something that he has said or done. Shoot, if I treated everyone I know how Mike is treated in here, I wouldn't be friendly with anyone in my orbit. As I have said many times, it truly amazes me that people in here hate him more than the people he is said to have offended (Brian & Al).

[Emily]

Brian Wilson seems to hold nothing against anybody.
I think there's some significant Mike Love hate out there, but reading the backlog on this board it appears to me that there's an ongoing low-level sniping but not many outright hate rants.

[drbeachboy]

Brian Wilson seems to hold nothing against anybody.
I think there's some significant Mike Love hate out there, but reading the backlog on this board it appears to me that there's an ongoing low-level sniping but not many outright hate rants.

Agreed, we should follow his lead. Emily, I am not sure how long you have been here, but many a thread have gone off the rails due to the Mike Love hate that sometimes goes on in here.

[CenturyDeprived]

I think one of the issues with Mike, and why the criticism seems incessant, is that some of the things people don’t like about him are continual, on-going issues. It isn’t just one time where a bad decision was made, or one interview where someone thinks something said was out of line.

He has continually been pretty unapologetic about, well, most everything. Above all else, the lack of apparent ability to admit a mistake or flaw that concerns him and only him is at the root of a lot of it, I think.

I think harping on one specific thing does get tired. In a few cases, Mike has changed course rendering a specific criticism invalid. The setlists would be the main example. While the underlying context of his live presentation is a separate issue and debatable, one can no longer call him the “traveling jukebox” where he “only plays the hits.”

But if someone thinks he is overly-defensive, unwilling to admit personal flaws or mistakes, and so on, those are ongoing things that haven’t as yet gone away.

I have seen few “band” fan communities where a specific band member is shown so much disdain. I think that fact means fans should engage in some self-reflection and think about whether we’re being too hard, or whether we’re letting negativity overrun the enjoyment of the band and its music. But having such a large contingent of fans be so negative about him isn’t all some horrible misunderstanding. Mike causes A LOT of that.

Mike causes nothing. He is entitled to think and feel just like any of us. It is on you and only you if you take that much offense over something that he has said or done. Shoot, if I treated everyone I know how Mike is treated in here, I wouldn't be friendly with anyone in my orbit. As I have said many times, it truly amazes me that people in here hate him more than the people he is said to have offended (Brian & Al).

Of course Mike causes and contributes to (both directly and indirectly) all sorts of stuff, including peoples' perceptions of him. Same with any person in the public eye who has had as long a career, as well as the many controversies as he has, coupled with the numerous avoided opportunities to own up to stuff, that if were owned up to, would grant him an absolutely perceptible measure of understanding and empathy. Don't pretend that's not the case.

For example, it's a known thing that Brian regrets his mistakes (which were huge) as a parent during his lost years. Mike denied his daughter's paternity, was apparently wrong about it, she had a tragic end, and never has said a peep about it years down the line; he's swept it under the rug. No he doesn't have to talk about mistakes as a parent, but guess what: Brian didn't have to either, but he did very publicly. Let's not pretend that this difference (just for example) goes unnoticed by the public. Feel free to throw all sorts of other examples to prove how bad Dennis was as subterfuge, but if you do that, please address this valid point I just made. It's not negligible.

A person not being able to admit to their mistakes is a trait that specifically rubs many (most) people in THE worst way, and that personality flaw can tend to negate other good things about a given person in many peoples' minds.  That one unfortunate fact gives Mike much fewer get-out-of-jail-free cards in the public's eye compared to the other guys.

Mike has done some great work, I am a fan of lots of his contributions, but he has historically and often (though certainly not always) continues to be his own worst enemy in a unique way that has no parallel in this band. I wish it weren't so, but it is so. I want very much for Mike to have a better reputation - truly I do, but there is a reason for his perception which he greatly contributes to. Denying the reasons why things are the way they are (by saying Mike "causes nothing") does not help reverse what's been done, lest you think it somehow does.

[HeyJude]

Mike causes nothing. He is entitled to think and feel just like any of us. It is on you and only you if you take that much offense over something that he has said or done. Shoot, if I treated everyone I know how Mike is treated in here, I wouldn't be friendly with anyone in my orbit. As I have said many times, it truly amazes me that people in here hate him more than the people he is said to have offended (Brian & Al).

I guess that applies in a world where nobody but the person "reacting" is responsible for anything.

I'm not speaking to how valid or invalid any criticisms are. I'm just saying the incredulity with which a few people seem to characterize Mike's detractors is just baffling.

The "Mike is entitled to think and feel" thing works both ways. Why would anyone be baffled as to why some of his objectively (as objective as we can be) inflammatory interviews and comments have tended to trouble some fans?

Again, I'm not talking about the small group of trolls who spew hateful comments and unfunny Mike Love limericks or haiku and spell his name purposely incorrectly, or whatever it is they do.

But sometimes, not always, sometimes I think a large percentage of fair-minded, non-Mike-hating fans have read interviews and comments from Mike and come away thinking essentially, "Wow, what a d**k."

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not saying Mike has to feel differently than he feels, or say anything differently. But just as everybody has to suck it up when Mike says or does things and deal with how they react to it, that also means everybody including Mike and the "why can't we all be positive about everything and everyone?" gallery has to suck it up when the negative reactions come in. True, fair negative reactions. Not name-calling, troll commentary, and repetitive digs.

But it is indeed the same circular internet argument. Mike can say whatever he wants. Fans can say whatever they want. What then? All we can do is weigh all the commentary accordingly. I don't heavily weigh the comments of anti-Mike trolls or Mike apologists that insist he has never done wrong. Luckly, BOTH groups are VERY FEW in number.

I think the term "hate" regarding feelings towards Mike is being vastly overused here. I don't think much of anyone hates Mike. A few, *very few*, use arguably hateful speech, and I suppose may "hate" him as much as someone can hate someone they've never met.

But I think "lament" is a more appropriate word. I lament a lot of Mike's comments more than anything else.

[drbeachboy]

Mike causes nothing. He is entitled to think and feel just like any of us. It is on you and only you if you take that much offense over something that he has said or done. Shoot, if I treated everyone I know how Mike is treated in here, I wouldn't be friendly with anyone in my orbit. As I have said many times, it truly amazes me that people in here hate him more than the people he is said to have offended (Brian & Al).

I guess that applies in a world where nobody but the person "reacting" is responsible for anything.

I'm not speaking to how valid or invalid any criticisms are. I'm just saying the incredulity with which a few people seem to characterize Mike's detractors is just baffling.

The "Mike is entitled to think and feel" thing works both ways. Why would anyone be baffled as to why some of his objectively (as objective as we can be) inflammatory interviews and comments have tended to trouble some fans?

Again, I'm not talking about the small group of trolls who spew hateful comments and unfunny Mike Love limericks or haiku and spell his name purposely incorrectly, or whatever it is they do.

But sometimes, not always, sometimes I think a large percentage of fair-minded, non-Mike-hating fans have read interviews and comments from Mike and come away thinking essentially, "Wow, what a d**k."

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not saying Mike has to feel differently than he feels, or say anything differently. But just as everybody has to suck it up when Mike says or does things and deal with how they react to it, that also means everybody including Mike and the "why can't we all be positive about everything and everyone?" gallery has to suck it up when the negative reactions come in. True, fair negative reactions. Not name-calling, troll commentary, and repetitive digs.

But it is indeed the same circular internet argument. Mike can say whatever he wants. Fans can say whatever they want. What then? All we can do is weigh all the commentary accordingly. I don't heavily weigh the comments of anti-Mike trolls or Mike apologists that insist he has never done wrong. Luckly, BOTH groups are VERY FEW in number.

I think the term "hate" regarding feelings towards Mike is being vastly overused here. I don't think much of anyone hates Mike. A few, *very few*, use arguably hateful speech, and I suppose may "hate" him as much as someone can hate someone they've never met.

But I think "lament" is a more appropriate word. I lament a lot of Mike's comments more than anything else.

You are completely right. There are a lot people who act like a d**k at times and can also act very kind and loving. We are human beings, we do that kind of stuff. I just let it roll off my back.

[Emily]

Brian Wilson seems to hold nothing against anybody.
I think there's some significant Mike Love hate out there, but reading the backlog on this board it appears to me that there's an ongoing low-level sniping but not many outright hate rants.

Agreed, we should follow his lead. Emily, I am not sure how long you have been here, but many a thread have gone off the rails due to the Mike Love hate that sometimes goes on in here.

Four months or so, but I've read a lot of the really long fighting about Mike Love threads and they read more like two intransigent sides sniping at each other, each misunderstanding the other. There seem to be one or two full-on Mike Love haters and one full-on Brian Wilson hater. But I haven't seen any "I hate Mike Love" rants in the more recent (last year or so) of the sort you see elsewhere on the Internet. I think most posters here seem to be middling or leaning one way or the other a bit, but I think the lengthy threads are more born out of defensiveness, misreadings and historical interposter rancor than anything else.

[Emily]

And I think this thread is a young version of that. It could become another thread sniping about Mike Love with no one having contributed a hateful rant.

[drbeachboy]

Actually Emily, I think that the thread Iain started for this article was the mother of all threads.

[Emily]

Actually Emily, I think that the thread Iain started for this article was the mother of all threads.

Yeah. I read it. Crazy.

[China Pig]

I flicked through the article in the shops, nothing new was said on the subject.

[Micha]

I'm not arguing that Mike's attitude doesn't rub a lot of people up the wrong way. Just that there are a group of people for whom hating Mike seemingly overrides everything else, and it seems to distort the whole culture of Beach Boys fandom in unpleasant ways. Saying "I think Mike is overly defensive and unwilling to admit mistakes" is a reasonable position which one can agree with, disagree with, or ignore (for my own part, I think that's probably true, but I also don't really care -- as I said, I don't have much invested in the band members' personalities). The screaming rages some people seem to go into are a different matter though.

I agree with all this. One can criticize and defend Mike, but some people are really offended if somebody dares to say something positive about him. Then you have an agenda or are paid by him or are part of his online face saving crew and whatnot. Nobody says Mike is a saint or a genius. (Unless someone does in that magazine article I haven't read.)

[The Shift]

It's an interesting take, one that will polarize opinion. Personally I think it's possible author's swung the pendulum a little too far.

Credit where credit due, but I think you're right on this one.

+ another. The whole thing reads like a well-intentioned Devil's advocate line to me… no one can take everything he write too seriously; the truth lies somewhere slightly back in the other direction.

And throughout I had a "deja vu" feeling… was this really the author's sentiment throughout, or was it entirely a conglomeration of feelings expressed on this board down recent years?

The interview with Mike isn't too bad but is almost entirely based on their sixties output… stuck-in-a-time warp kinda thang, and almost adding more fuel to some of the criticisms Iain tries to counter in the preceding piece…

[AndrewHickey]

And throughout I had a "deja vu" feeling… was this really the author's sentiment throughout, or was it entirely a conglomeration of feelings expressed on this board down recent years?

I'm fairly certain it's Iain's real opinion.

[PhilSpectre]

For example, it's a known thing that Brian regrets his mistakes (which were huge) as a parent during his lost years. Mike denied his daughter's paternity, was apparently wrong about it, she had a tragic end, and never has said a peep about it years down the line; he's swept it under the rug. No he doesn't have to talk about mistakes as a parent, but guess what: Brian didn't have to either, but he did very publicly. Let's not pretend that this difference (just for example) goes unnoticed by the public. Feel free to throw all sorts of other examples to prove how bad Dennis was as subterfuge, but if you do that, please address this valid point I just made. It's not negligible.

A person not being able to admit to their mistakes is a trait that specifically rubs many (most) people in THE worst way, and that personality flaw can tend to negate other good things about a given person in many peoples' minds.  That one unfortunate fact gives Mike much fewer get-out-of-jail-free cards in the public's eye compared to the other guys.

One thing that occurs to me is, who knows if Mike hasn't privately in his family (Brian included) discussed or dealt with some/ many of these issues with those involved, even taken responsibility for his role in things down the years to some degree? The family(s) may have made some sort of peace about a lot of this years ago. Maybe we'll never know and nor should we.

I certainly wouldn't expect Mike to publicly discuss that whole sad, unedifying episode with Dennis and Mike's apparent daughter, outside of some in-depth autobiography anyway. I mean, how many here would want to talk about the darker/ sadder aspects of their family/ personal lives to some random magazine/ newspaper/ TV host? Mike has nearly always been publicly about business, kind of macho and defiant in response to criticism. And quite right, as most of his interviews are him trying to sell concert tickets.

Of course, if he refrained from comparing his cousins/ bandmates' historical substance misuse to his own lifestyle in press interviews once in a while, it would do his reputation for tact and diplomacy no harm either ...  .

[guitarfool2002]

The article was finally made available online as a download through the RC website.

Since he is a member here and started the thread here months ago that was research for the piece, I'm hoping Iain Lee will entertain some dialogue and questions about his article.

I'd like to start: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based the opinions offered in your piece?

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Just read the article. It was good, although in answer to Iain's question in the article - 'Admit it, how often do you actually listen to Smile?' - er, all the time, Iain. I last listened to it two days ago, in fact, and had a hefty Smile Sessions session the weekend before that. Iain's implication (in the article) seems to be that, deep down, most of us don't really wanna listen to Smile, which i found odd and - in my case at least - just completely untrue.

I didn't like the side article calling out select songs for being a bit iffy though, not least coz most of the songs listed are ones I actively love: HELP Is On The Way, My Solution, Diamond Head, etc. I found it a very strange list, for the opposite reasons to those presumably intended by its author.

[guitarfool2002]

The article was finally made available online as a download through the RC website.

Since he is a member here and started the thread here months ago that was research for the piece, I'm hoping Iain Lee will entertain some dialogue and questions about his article.

I'd like to start: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based the opinions offered in your piece?

I want to bump this in hopes Iain Lee will entertain a dialogue on his article here.

Asking Iain again: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based your opinions expressed in your article?

[SurfRiderHawaii]

The article was finally made available online as a download through the RC website.

Since he is a member here and started the thread here months ago that was research for the piece, I'm hoping Iain Lee will entertain some dialogue and questions about his article.

I'd like to start: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based the opinions offered in your piece?

I want to bump this in hopes Iain Lee will entertain a dialogue on his article here.

Asking Iain again: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based your opinions expressed in your article?

I'd like to know when Mike's management first approached him to write this article?

[AndrewHickey]

The article was finally made available online as a download through the RC website.

Since he is a member here and started the thread here months ago that was research for the piece, I'm hoping Iain Lee will entertain some dialogue and questions about his article.

I'd like to start: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based the opinions offered in your piece?

I want to bump this in hopes Iain Lee will entertain a dialogue on his article here.

Asking Iain again: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based your opinions expressed in your article?

I'd like to know when Mike's management first approached him to write this article?

There's no need for stuff like that. Iain's a genuine fan of Mike -- I've traded music with him in the past, and he was most interested in getting hold of copies of Mike's unreleased solo stuff, and any live performances of Mike solo songs like Sumahama.

[guitarfool2002]

The article was finally made available online as a download through the RC website.

Since he is a member here and started the thread here months ago that was research for the piece, I'm hoping Iain Lee will entertain some dialogue and questions about his article.

I'd like to start: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based the opinions offered in your piece?

I want to bump this in hopes Iain Lee will entertain a dialogue on his article here.

Asking Iain again: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based your opinions expressed in your article?

I'd like to know when Mike's management first approached him to write this article?

There's no need for stuff like that. Iain's a genuine fan of Mike -- I've traded music with him in the past, and he was most interested in getting hold of copies of Mike's unreleased solo stuff, and any live performances of Mike solo songs like Sumahama.

So where was this info when he originally posted the "Why Do You Hate Mike Love?" thread in preparation for his article, and people were calling him a troll and asking that he be banned and his thread be locked or deleted?

[guitarfool2002]

I'd still like to hear it from Iain himself, and have a dialogue about the article.

[AndrewHickey]

The article was finally made available online as a download through the RC website.

Since he is a member here and started the thread here months ago that was research for the piece, I'm hoping Iain Lee will entertain some dialogue and questions about his article.

I'd like to start: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based the opinions offered in your piece?

I want to bump this in hopes Iain Lee will entertain a dialogue on his article here.

Asking Iain again: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based your opinions expressed in your article?

I'd like to know when Mike's management first approached him to write this article?

There's no need for stuff like that. Iain's a genuine fan of Mike -- I've traded music with him in the past, and he was most interested in getting hold of copies of Mike's unreleased solo stuff, and any live performances of Mike solo songs like Sumahama.

So where was this info when he originally posted the "Why Do You Hate Mike Love?" thread in preparation for his article, and people were calling him a troll and asking that he be banned and his thread be locked or deleted?

I've no idea why Iain didn't say then that he was a fan (if he didn't -- I didn't read much of that thread). I just know that if Iain's working for Mike's management, he's playing a very long game, since I've been talking with him about music for something like four years semi-regularly, and he's repeatedly made clear to me that he does, genuinely, like and admire Mike Love.
There have been too many accusations about people having secret agendas flying around recently. Iain doesn't have one. He's just writing articles about music he likes.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

The article was finally made available online as a download through the RC website.

Since he is a member here and started the thread here months ago that was research for the piece, I'm hoping Iain Lee will entertain some dialogue and questions about his article.

I'd like to start: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based the opinions offered in your piece?

I want to bump this in hopes Iain Lee will entertain a dialogue on his article here.

Asking Iain again: What were some of your sources for the information on which you based your opinions expressed in your article?

I'd like to know when Mike's management first approached him to write this article?

There's no need for stuff like that. Iain's a genuine fan of Mike -- I've traded music with him in the past, and he was most interested in getting hold of copies of Mike's unreleased solo stuff, and any live performances of Mike solo songs like Sumahama.

Andrew, you don't know that didn't happen. It's neither a slight, nor uncommon, for management to hire a writer to write a puff piece. Considering Ian's bio, and his fandom of Mike, he was an ideal person to approach!

[SMiLE Brian]

I want credit for my quote about Mike in the article!