Randell Kirsch

[Emily]

John Oates recently said (and he's not the first), "I'll play for free.  You have to pay me to leave the house, get on a plane, stay in a hotel..."  That's really it.  I've done my share of touring and it is really tough on your body, in ways that are both manifest at the time and that you don't even realize until you stop (says the guy who's now a full-time studio musician-producer and rarely tours anymore).  I'm sure the guys in Mike's band make decent money, the real question is the money vs. the stress factor, which other folks have rightly touched on.

I loved Emily's point about pilots.  It is the same thing though happily not as life threatening.  There are so many factors that I could write a whole thesis about (but I won't), the bottom line being that in today's day and age conditions are not conducive to people making a career out of music or to becoming really good musicians if they do.  It's just a less lucrative AND less competitive market, so musicians make less cash and they don't play as well, the two of which are correlated.  

If you want to see truly great musicians, go to a wedding or a corporate event, because that's where the pros are now.  Or any bar in Southeast Asia, pretty much, where there's still a motivational factor.

I hate to forego the compliment, but it belongs to Debbie - she mentioned piloting.
I'm really intrigued by this idea of how musicians make a living and whether skilled/talented musicians are or are not the most likely to find regular lucrative work. I'm going to start a general music thread and hope you will contribute.

[jeffh]

Why do we assume that all of the backup band makes the same amount? $700.00 is the figure that has been tossed about lately. Perhaps , like in other occupations, they make different amounts, based on various factors, like length of time with the band and so forth. Just thinking!

[filledeplage]

Yes - it's all how we look at it.  Schlepping across the world when there's family at home has to get old after awhile...REALLY OLD.  And I love travel.

Then again, I think I remember being beaten to a pulp here last Spring (I think) for suggesting that when musicians who have worked for more than a year on a new release, we shouldn't download it for free without knowing that we are stealing.  Is the relationship of musicians' struggling and this mentality really lost on some people here?

Debbie - I agree 1000% as to the theft involved in music downloading, and that the writers/composers should be compensated.  Yes, it is stealing. And, it runs fully counter to our reasons for copyright protection and intellectual property rights.

But, for both great bands, as someone above mentioned, in terms of swapping members, I am not sure that their skill sets are "fungible" (meaning one can substitute for another.) I cannot imagine the quality downgrades without the likes of a Probyn, Nelson, Darian, Paul or Scott in Brian's Band or Totten or Cowsill, in the Touring Band. These guys have just honed their skills and grown-in-the-job. You just can't buy that.  

  

[Wirestone]

Incidentally, my post wasn't meant to suggest that band members of either group are anything but extraordinarily talented. They clearly are! And they deserve what they're paid -- and more. We're all part of a broader economic reality, though. And in the United States at least, it has seldom proved rewarding toward artists.

[Debbie KL]

Incidentally, my post wasn't meant to suggest that band members of either group are anything but extraordinarily talented. They clearly are! And they deserve what they're paid -- and more. We're all part of a broader economic reality, though. And in the United States at least, it has seldom proved rewarding toward artists.

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly didn't take your comments as diminishing the musicians referenced.  I also think that it's safe to say that while we have the headliner artist's name, relationships develop over the years and matter.  Brian lost his own brothers as fellow artists, so I would imagine he's realistic about losing any of his band - yet it would also be painful and difficult, as well.

I know that there are certainly nations that make their appreciation of artists real through support of the arts, and the US isn't one of them.  There's now the GoFundMe/Kickstarter forms of compensation for those struggling artists (read MOST artists), but it's tough for anyone and what we've lost due to this lack of respect and support is a tragic unknown.  What haven't we shared as a culture because it was just too difficult to get the art to us?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yes - it's all how we look at it.  Schlepping across the world when there's family at home has to get old after awhile...REALLY OLD.  And I love travel.

Then again, I think I remember being beaten to a pulp here last Spring (I think) for suggesting that when musicians who have worked for more than a year on a new release, we shouldn't download it for free without knowing that we are stealing.  Is the relationship of musicians' struggling and this mentality really lost on some people here?

This hits home for me, on many levels. As many here know, I was a diehard fan of the late Scott Weiland . One of the things that made the last few years of his life so miserable for him was the fact that he had to pay $60K A MONTH in alimony, and since there is little money to be made via record sales anymore, he was forced to tour in order to pay that (in addition to any other expenses) pretty much nonstop, even though his mental health issues (not to mention his ongoing battle- sadly since lost- with drugs and alcohol ) meant it was a dangerous situation for him to be constantly on the road. He hated the travel, he hated being away from his wife Jamie, was depressed about not being able to see his kids (with his ex)...all of that exploded into a fatal powder keg.

For me specifically , the decline of record sales has hit me pretty hard, in that I'm a studio guy *only*. Since August, I've gotten a few thousand streams (streams NOT sales), and you know what that earned me? Not even enough for PayPal to cut a check. So yeah, this free download business hurts the 'little guy', and pretty much everyone but the top and second tier artists get royally f***ed over.

[Emily]

For me specifically , the decline of record sales has hit me pretty hard, in that I'm a studio guy *only*. Since August, I've gotten a few thousand streams (streams NOT sales), and you know what that earned me? Not even enough for PayPal to cut a check. So yeah, this free download business hurts the 'little guy', and pretty much everyone but the top and second tier artists get royally f***ed over.

It's awful that S. Weiland was legally trapped in a dangerous situation.

I opened a thread in General Music, so if you want to answer there, that would be cool, but:
Is your music on hosted streaming services with monthly user fees/advertising, or is it self-hosted or on upload sites like soundcloud?
How does one get one's music on a hosted service? And what's the pay structure like?
Do you pay out-of-pocket for all production costs? Without a label, does one rely solely on social media for promotion?

[adamghost]

John Oates recently said (and he's not the first), "I'll play for free.  You have to pay me to leave the house, get on a plane, stay in a hotel..."  That's really it.  I've done my share of touring and it is really tough on your body, in ways that are both manifest at the time and that you don't even realize until you stop (says the guy who's now a full-time studio musician-producer and rarely tours anymore).  I'm sure the guys in Mike's band make decent money, the real question is the money vs. the stress factor, which other folks have rightly touched on.

I loved Emily's point about pilots.  It is the same thing though happily not as life threatening.  There are so many factors that I could write a whole thesis about (but I won't), the bottom line being that in today's day and age conditions are not conducive to people making a career out of music or to becoming really good musicians if they do.  It's just a less lucrative AND less competitive market, so musicians make less cash and they don't play as well, the two of which are correlated.  

If you want to see truly great musicians, go to a wedding or a corporate event, because that's where the pros are now.  Or any bar in Southeast Asia, pretty much, where there's still a motivational factor.

I hate to forego the compliment, but it belongs to Debbie - she mentioned piloting.
I'm really intrigued by this idea of how musicians make a living and whether skilled/talented musicians are or are not the most likely to find regular lucrative work. I'm going to start a general music thread and hope you will contribute.

That was sloppy of me.  I've been aware that I need to more attentive when reading posts on the internet.

Oh, I have lots to say on this subject, it might be hard to shut me up...but feel free to tell me to.

[AndrewHickey]

How does one get one's music on a hosted service? And what's the pay structure like?

I can answer this, or at least one popular way of doing it. My old band The National Pep made our music available through CDBaby, which is probably the most popular choice for unsigned bands. CDBaby sell your music directly as CDs and MP3s, but also distribute it (for a cut -- I think 20% IIRC) to both other stores (eg Amazon, iTunes) and to streaming services such as Spotify and YouTube, then collect the money themselves.

As for the pay structure, a picture is worth a thousand words...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

For me specifically , the decline of record sales has hit me pretty hard, in that I'm a studio guy *only*. Since August, I've gotten a few thousand streams (streams NOT sales), and you know what that earned me? Not even enough for PayPal to cut a check. So yeah, this free download business hurts the 'little guy', and pretty much everyone but the top and second tier artists get royally f***ed over.

It's awful that S. Weiland was legally trapped in a dangerous situation.

I opened a thread in General Music, so if you want to answer there, that would be cool, but:
Is your music on hosted streaming services with monthly user fees/advertising, or is it self-hosted or on upload sites like soundcloud?
How does one get one's music on a hosted service? And what's the pay structure like?
Do you pay out-of-pocket for all production costs? Without a label, does one rely solely on social media for promotion?

It is on ReverbNation, yes, but mainly demos. The 'professional' stuff (pro in the sense that it is out for sale...still home recorded, though) is available on Amazon, iTunes, Spotify, and Google Play. Spotify though is streaming only, and pays fractions of a penny per stream. How small? Well, I'd have to have over a million streams to earn around $1000.  With the other options, I get paid per purchase (currently only available as a online download...no physical copies currently). The messed up part is I wish I could just have a few songs available to stream and the rest to sell, but it's all or nothing. No label, so all promotion is done by myself and the others in the group. Well, right now it's just down to me and my wife; one member is currently in this hospital undergoing dialysis (as a result of complications due to cancer treatment) and the other has all but left.  

Going to copy/paste this on the other thread, to keep this one on topic.

[Emily]

Ouch.

[Debbie KL]

For me specifically , the decline of record sales has hit me pretty hard, in that I'm a studio guy *only*. Since August, I've gotten a few thousand streams (streams NOT sales), and you know what that earned me? Not even enough for PayPal to cut a check. So yeah, this free download business hurts the 'little guy', and pretty much everyone but the top and second tier artists get royally f***ed over.

It's awful that S. Weiland was legally trapped in a dangerous situation.

I opened a thread in General Music, so if you want to answer there, that would be cool, but:
Is your music on hosted streaming services with monthly user fees/advertising, or is it self-hosted or on upload sites like soundcloud?
How does one get one's music on a hosted service? And what's the pay structure like?
Do you pay out-of-pocket for all production costs? Without a label, does one rely solely on social media for promotion?

It is on ReverbNation, yes, but mainly demos. The 'professional' stuff (pro in the sense that it is out for sale...still home recorded, though) is available on Amazon, iTunes, Spotify, and Google Play. Spotify though is streaming only, and pays fractions of a penny per stream. How small? Well, I'd have to have over a million streams to earn around $1000.  With the other options, I get paid per purchase (currently only available as a online download...no physical copies currently). The messed up part is I wish I could just have a few songs available to stream and the rest to sell, but it's all or nothing. No label, so all promotion is done by myself and the others in the group. Well, right now it's just down to me and my wife; one member is currently in this hospital undergoing dialysis (as a result of complications due to cancer treatment) and the other has all but left.  

Going to copy/paste this on the other thread, to keep this one on topic.

This is why it's such an issue for me.  It's absurd.  Actually, it's cruelly unfair.  I wish there were actual powerful unions again.  It's what's needed to stop such exploitation.

[Emily]

For me specifically , the decline of record sales has hit me pretty hard, in that I'm a studio guy *only*. Since August, I've gotten a few thousand streams (streams NOT sales), and you know what that earned me? Not even enough for PayPal to cut a check. So yeah, this free download business hurts the 'little guy', and pretty much everyone but the top and second tier artists get royally f***ed over.

It's awful that S. Weiland was legally trapped in a dangerous situation.

I opened a thread in General Music, so if you want to answer there, that would be cool, but:
Is your music on hosted streaming services with monthly user fees/advertising, or is it self-hosted or on upload sites like soundcloud?
How does one get one's music on a hosted service? And what's the pay structure like?
Do you pay out-of-pocket for all production costs? Without a label, does one rely solely on social media for promotion?

It is on ReverbNation, yes, but mainly demos. The 'professional' stuff (pro in the sense that it is out for sale...still home recorded, though) is available on Amazon, iTunes, Spotify, and Google Play. Spotify though is streaming only, and pays fractions of a penny per stream. How small? Well, I'd have to have over a million streams to earn around $1000.  With the other options, I get paid per purchase (currently only available as a online download...no physical copies currently). The messed up part is I wish I could just have a few songs available to stream and the rest to sell, but it's all or nothing. No label, so all promotion is done by myself and the others in the group. Well, right now it's just down to me and my wife; one member is currently in this hospital undergoing dialysis (as a result of complications due to cancer treatment) and the other has all but left.  

Going to copy/paste this on the other thread, to keep this one on topic.

This is why it's such an issue for me.  It's absurd.  Actually, it's cruelly unfair.  I wish there were actual powerful unions again.  It's what's needed to stop such exploitation.

Yeah. Call me old-fashioned, but the start-up economy leaves way too many people with chance being the only thing between them and homelessness.

[HeyJude]

Doesn't really particularly mean anything, but apparently a few days ago "California Surf Inc." did a gig with a lineup where you get guys from Brian's, Mike's, and Al's band!



I know both Christian Love and Adrian Baker filled in with this band (for Matt and Probyn I believe) a few months back, and it looks like they've once again had Christian in the band, this time alongside Probyn in addition to Carter, Figueroa, and Hinsche.

[filledeplage]

Doesn't really particularly mean anything, but apparently a few days ago "California Surf Inc." did a gig with a lineup where you get guys from Brian's, Mike's, and Al's band!



I know both Christian Love and Adrian Baker filled in with this band (for Matt and Probyn I believe) a few months back, and it looks like they've once again had Christian in the band, this time alongside Probyn in addition to Carter, Figueroa, and Hinsche.

Hey Jude - Had the chance to catch them last Spring and thought they were just terrific, and put on a really great show.  Tremendous musicians.

Thanks for that photo.   

[AndrewHickey]

Now *that* would be a fun band to see live.

[HeyJude]

I'd certainly enjoy seeing that band. All top notch guys. I wonder how strong they sound vocally. Bobby is a good lead singer, don't know much about his harmony work. I recall seeing Ed Carter in one of these side bands singing in a clip on YouTube, and he was solid but didn't sound like singing was his thing. Neither Bobby or Ed often were in the harmony stacks during their years in the touring band, right? Apart from Bobby sometimes filling in some falsetto parts.

It's a pretty lean band lineup, so I'm definitely curious to see what that lineup would sound like. With neither Matt Jardine nor Adrian Baker present, it would also be interesting to see who would be doing any falsetto parts. I would presume either Probyn or Christian.

It's a bummer, this lineup (or something like it) should be backing Al on strings of dates. I know Al has a semi-regular gig touring with Brian now, but I'd love to see Al break oout a little solo tour with something like this band, with perhaps a few more of Brian's guys added.

[filledeplage]

I'd certainly enjoy seeing that band. All top notch guys. I wonder how strong they sound vocally. Bobby is a good lead singer, don't know much about his harmony work. I recall seeing Ed Carter in one of these side bands singing in a clip on YouTube, and he was solid but didn't sound like singing was his thing. Neither Bobby or Ed often were in the harmony stacks during their years in the touring band, right? Apart from Bobby sometimes filling in some falsetto parts.

It's a pretty lean band lineup, so I'm definitely curious to see what that lineup would sound like. With neither Matt Jardine nor Adrian Baker present, it would also be interesting to see who would be doing any falsetto parts. I would presume either Probyn or Christian.

It's a bummer, this lineup (or something like it) should be backing Al on strings of dates. I know Al has a semi-regular gig touring with Brian now, but I'd love to see Al break oout a little solo tour with something like this band, with perhaps a few more of Brian's guys added.

Hey Jude - I am well-spoiled to have seen with Al's band, too, with much of this lineup as well as a few others such as Richie Cannatta, with both Matt and Adam, whom I had never seen perform.  Nice vocals from Adam.   

Ed, who did a screaming guitar for several decades with The Beach Boys, does a great Rhonda (in Al's absence) as well as Bobby on SOS.  See them if you get a chance.  It is the classic 60's rock lineup.   No frills, no videos, just straight out rock and roll fun. 

And, they know all the words