Randell Kirsch

[AndrewHickey]

It's unfair to blame the bands wives for anything, I doubt they had a final say in matters.

At the same time, going from what we've read over the years, it's possible they have been negative influences, which is fair game to point out IMO

Absolutely. It's entirely reasonable to assume that they've had some kind of influence. I think I've read interviews with band members recently which have said in so many words that some members' wives not getting on was part of the reason for the problems between the two camps (though which, if any, of the wives is at fault there I don't think we know). But if Jacqueline Love is responsible for Adrian Baker and Mike Kowalski being replaced, as surf patrol has been saying, or if Melinda Wilson was the one who pushed Brian to finally complete Smile, then we owe them a great deal.

[Emily]

It's unfair to blame the bands wives for anything, I doubt they had a final say in matters.

At the same time, going from what we've read over the years, it's possible they have been negative influences, which is fair game to point out IMO

I think that's a reasonable take.

[donald]

never mind, my point was that I thought it must be more like 2000 rather than 200, which I knew was ridiculous.   Just playing with a calculator ,  Andrew, what would you estimate the net for Mike and the touring band after paying all costs and taxes and the cut payed to the BB organization?   FYI, I simply guessed average venue of 3000, average ticket 50 dollars and 180 shows.    Accurate or not is a place to start a guesstimate.    Just for fun, what would you guess?

The problem is that you're assuming there's a "net for Mike and the touring band" that's split between the band members. The backing band members are (as I understand it) paid a set rate per show, not a percentage of the takings.

In that case, it comes down to what the road band is willing to settle for....     In that case, I wonder how that figure is arrived at and what that figure, approximately is.......700 per show seems awfully low

[Shark]

Bruce, himself, has told me stories of issues between Jacqueline and Melinda (related to C50).  Both wives I think do have considerable influence on their husbands (as many wives do). In the end, they are both grown men and can make their own decisions though. Just my opinion,  but I think the wives are one of the big reasons why Brian and Mike don't work together today.  Not the only reason, for sure, but a big one.

[Autotune]

Bruce, himself, has told me stories of issues between Jacqueline and Melinda (related to C50).  Both wives I think do have considerable influence on their husbands (as many wives do). In the end, they are both grown men and can make their own decisions though. Just my opinion,  but I think the wives are one of the big reasons why Brian and Mike don't work together today.  Not the only reason, for sure, but a big one.

I bet one silver dollar that a big issue in the reunion break-up had to do with disagreement about Brian's onstage outfit. Not the only issue, but among those that prompted the "no more touring for the Wilsons" early email. Not to mention Brian's back problems.

[Smilin Ed H]

Bruce, himself, has told me stories of issues between Jacqueline and Melinda (related to C50).  Both wives I think do have considerable influence on their husbands (as many wives do). In the end, they are both grown men and can make their own decisions though. Just my opinion,  but I think the wives are one of the big reasons why Brian and Mike don't work together today.  Not the only reason, for sure, but a big one.

I bet one silver dollar that a big issue in the reunion break-up had to do with disagreement about Brian's onstage outfit. Not the only issue, but among those that prompted the "no more touring for the Wilsons" early email. Not to mention Brian's back problems.

Jacqeline Love wanted Brian to tuck in his shirt. Brian said, "f*** it, Jacqui," and the rest is, as they say, history.

[SMiLE Brian]

It's never Mike's fault. 

[Autotune]

It's never Mike's fault. The online PR managing campaign for Mike is taking over.

Frankly, there was no malice in my friendly speculation. I thought you were done with permanently bringing up this penis-length contest. 

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

*deleted

[Wirestone]

There are some jobs in which simply being able to do the job is part of the pay. Professional musician is one of those jobs. I think I can safely say that no one in Mike or Brian's backing band is getting rich from the gig. Mike tours more, though, so at least his guys are able to make a full-time living from it. That's seldom / never been the case with Brian's band.

The simple fact is, as much as we love the band members, both Mike and Brian could fire all their guys and hire competent replacements within a week or so. In other words, supply far outstrips demand. Pay follows accordingly.

[Smilin Ed H]

I find it had to believe that someone thought he could come on here and outright lie in an attempt to discredit The Lovester. That goes way beyond the usual tit for tat opinionated nonsense that we usually see.

[lastofmykind]

There are some jobs in which simply being able to do the job is part of the pay. Professional musician is one of those jobs. I think I can safely say that no one in Mike or Brian's backing band is getting rich from the gig. Mike tours more, though, so at least his guys are able to make a full-time living from it. That's seldom / never been the case with Brian's band.

The simple fact is, as much as we love the band members, both Mike and Brian could fire all their guys and hire competent replacements within a week or so. In other words, supply far outstrips demand. Pay follows accordingly.

I don't think you could necessarily say that wirestone, in this hypothetical scenario both bands would suffer immensely if all backing band members were just replaced.  The touring BB all have quality top of the line professional musicians many with college degrees and prior gigs that only top professional musicians would be able to pull off. Need I say anything about the quality of the performance of Brian's band?  Both bands in my opinion are the best of the best as far as quality of musicianship and vocal capability.  Both have somewhat different approaches but dammit they are both awesome bands with awesome musicians and vocalists. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I find it had to believe that someone thought he could come on here and outright lie in an attempt to discredit The Lovester. That goes way beyond the usual tit for tat opinionated nonsense that we usually see.

It's Jimbo's MO. Chose the wrong forum this time. 

[Emily]

There are some jobs in which simply being able to do the job is part of the pay. Professional musician is one of those jobs. I think I can safely say that no one in Mike or Brian's backing band is getting rich from the gig. Mike tours more, though, so at least his guys are able to make a full-time living from it. That's seldom / never been the case with Brian's band.

The simple fact is, as much as we love the band members, both Mike and Brian could fire all their guys and hire competent replacements within a week or so. In other words, supply far outstrips demand. Pay follows accordingly.

As with all the arts, there's a lot of low to medium quality supply but very limited high quality. Thus the next-to-nothing pay for those who have not established themselves as high quality artists but those who have usually are paid very well.

Eta:before it becomes a tangent - let me say that I realize "quality" in the arts is mostly subjective and in this case I mean quality as judged by the broad marketplace, which often differs tremendously from quality as judged by connoisseurs, those interested in the avant garde, etc.

[adamghost]

There are some jobs in which simply being able to do the job is part of the pay. Professional musician is one of those jobs. I think I can safely say that no one in Mike or Brian's backing band is getting rich from the gig. Mike tours more, though, so at least his guys are able to make a full-time living from it. That's seldom / never been the case with Brian's band.

The simple fact is, as much as we love the band members, both Mike and Brian could fire all their guys and hire competent replacements within a week or so. In other words, supply far outstrips demand. Pay follows accordingly.

As with all the arts, there's a lot of low to medium quality supply but very limited high quality. Thus the next-to-nothing pay for those who have not established themselves as high quality artists but those who have usually are paid very well.

Eta:before it becomes a tangent - let me say that I realize "quality" in the arts is mostly subjective and in this case I mean quality as judged by the broad marketplace, which often differs tremendously from quality as judged by connoisseurs, those interested in the avant garde, etc.

Mmm...get what you're saying but it's more complicated than that.  A lot of very good musicians can't work, and the lack of work has in turn greatly reduced the amount of good musicians, and lessened the quality overall, because fewer people are able to devote themselves to it as a profession.  It's not a kind world to specialist musicians now, unfortunately, and really great players who don't just jam but can play with taste and subtlety are harder and harder to find as those skills are valued less and less.  So I'd argue the "high quality" musicians are really struggling for the most part, and there are fewer of them overall.  

It would be harder still to get good players to fill in for Beach Boys shows, agreed.  It's a fairly specialized talent pool...but those folks are definitely out there.

[LeeDempsey]

never mind, my point was that I thought it must be more like 2000 rather than 200, which I knew was ridiculous.   Just playing with a calculator ,  Andrew, what would you estimate the net for Mike and the touring band after paying all costs and taxes and the cut payed to the BB organization?   FYI, I simply guessed average venue of 3000, average ticket 50 dollars and 180 shows.    Accurate or not is a place to start a guesstimate.    Just for fun, what would you guess?

The problem is that you're assuming there's a "net for Mike and the touring band" that's split between the band members. The backing band members are (as I understand it) paid a set rate per show, not a percentage of the takings.

In that case, it comes down to what the road band is willing to settle for....     In that case, I wonder how that figure is arrived at and what that figure, approximately is.......700 per show seems awfully low

Looked at another way it equates to $233/hour for a 2-hour show plus an hour of setup and sound check, or $88/hour if extrapolated to an 8-hour day.  For comparison, an experienced music instructor might charge $50-$75 for a one-hour piano or guitar lesson, and you would have to book over 1,440 lessons ( 180 X 8 ) annually to make the equivalent in a year.

Lee

[Pretty Funky]

Although Surf Patrol's numbers have been discredited, could the $200 number have been the rate back when he had contacts in the band? When M&B were first starting out around 1998 I'm sure there would have been some lean years before the act got established. Those musicians being paid 'Beach Boys' numbers prior possibly had to take a cut or move on.

Just wondering.

[Debbie KL]

Yes - it's all how we look at it.  Schlepping across the world when there's family at home has to get old after awhile...REALLY OLD.  And I love travel.

Then again, I think I remember being beaten to a pulp here last Spring (I think) for suggesting that when musicians who have worked for more than a year on a new release, we shouldn't download it for free without knowing that we are stealing.  Is the relationship of musicians' struggling and this mentality really lost on some people here?

[Emily]

As with all the arts, there's a lot of low to medium quality supply but very limited high quality. Thus the next-to-nothing pay for those who have not established themselves as high quality artists but those who have usually are paid very well.

Eta:before it becomes a tangent - let me say that I realize "quality" in the arts is mostly subjective and in this case I mean quality as judged by the broad marketplace, which often differs tremendously from quality as judged by connoisseurs, those interested in the avant garde, etc.

Mmm...get what you're saying but it's more complicated than that.  A lot of very good musicians can't work, and the lack of work has in turn greatly reduced the amount of good musicians, and lessened the quality overall, because fewer people are able to devote themselves to it as a profession.  It's not a kind world to specialist musicians now, unfortunately, and really great players who don't just jam but can play with taste and subtlety are harder and harder to find as those skills are valued less and less.  So I'd argue the "high quality" musicians are really struggling for the most part, and there are fewer of them overall.  

It would be harder still to get good players to fill in for Beach Boys shows, agreed.  It's a fairly specialized talent pool...but those folks are definitely out there.

I agree I way oversimplified. I specified in my second sentence "for those who have not established themselves as high quality artists..." because I realize there are a lot of skilled and talented musicians who never get established as such in the market because the pay starting out is so low and spotty, a lot of people end up doing other things. Most of my art school friends work at entirely unrelated jobs and the rest at professional graphic design-type things. Some seemed to have plenty of talent, but things didn't pan out and they needed to make a living.
The word "quality" is really not the word I should have used but I'm not sure what the word I should have used is - I sort of danced around this in my edit note.
Point is, I take your points fully. Lots of artists who would've done great work had the pieces fallen into place fell by the wayside because it's very rare for those pieces to align.

[Debbie KL]

As with all the arts, there's a lot of low to medium quality supply but very limited high quality. Thus the next-to-nothing pay for those who have not established themselves as high quality artists but those who have usually are paid very well.

Eta:before it becomes a tangent - let me say that I realize "quality" in the arts is mostly subjective and in this case I mean quality as judged by the broad marketplace, which often differs tremendously from quality as judged by connoisseurs, those interested in the avant garde, etc.

Mmm...get what you're saying but it's more complicated than that.  A lot of very good musicians can't work, and the lack of work has in turn greatly reduced the amount of good musicians, and lessened the quality overall, because fewer people are able to devote themselves to it as a profession.  It's not a kind world to specialist musicians now, unfortunately, and really great players who don't just jam but can play with taste and subtlety are harder and harder to find as those skills are valued less and less.  So I'd argue the "high quality" musicians are really struggling for the most part, and there are fewer of them overall.  

It would be harder still to get good players to fill in for Beach Boys shows, agreed.  It's a fairly specialized talent pool...but those folks are definitely out there.

I agree I way oversimplified. I specified in my second sentence "for those who have not established themselves as high quality artists..." because I realize there are a lot of skilled and talented musicians who never get established as such in the market because the pay starting out is so low and spotty, a lot of people end up doing other things. Most of my art school friends work at entirely unrelated jobs and the rest at professional graphic design-type things. Some seemed to have plenty of talent, but things didn't pan out and they needed to make a living.
The word "quality" is really not the word I should have used but I'm not sure what the word I should have used is - I sort of danced around this in my edit note.
Point is, I take your points fully. Lots of artists who would've done great work had the pieces fallen into place fell by the wayside because it's very rare for those pieces to align.

I was a pilot and worked in aviation, as well.  No one seems to want to pay pilots anymore for the education and practice skill level it takes to fly safely either.  Welcome to the world of the bottom line running everything.  Even our art.  Happy flying, everyone.  And, so far, so good for Brian's band, whom I adore.  I haven't heard the M&B show, but no doubt, they're talented.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Although Surf Patrol's numbers have been discredited, could the $200 number have been the rate back when he had contacts in the band? When M&B were first starting out around 1998 I'm sure there would have been some lean years before the act got established. Those musicians being paid 'Beach Boys' numbers prior possibly had to take a cut or move on.

Just wondering.

Kowalski left the band in September 2007: I'm guessing he was paid more than $200/show by then, but in any case, Hennessey clearly stated that the band are currently being paid $200... which has been shown up as a complete lie. Hennessey's primary grouch is very simple: no friends in the band any more, no comps or BSPs.

[Emily]

As with all the arts, there's a lot of low to medium quality supply but very limited high quality. Thus the next-to-nothing pay for those who have not established themselves as high quality artists but those who have usually are paid very well.

Eta:before it becomes a tangent - let me say that I realize "quality" in the arts is mostly subjective and in this case I mean quality as judged by the broad marketplace, which often differs tremendously from quality as judged by connoisseurs, those interested in the avant garde, etc.

Mmm...get what you're saying but it's more complicated than that.  A lot of very good musicians can't work, and the lack of work has in turn greatly reduced the amount of good musicians, and lessened the quality overall, because fewer people are able to devote themselves to it as a profession.  It's not a kind world to specialist musicians now, unfortunately, and really great players who don't just jam but can play with taste and subtlety are harder and harder to find as those skills are valued less and less.  So I'd argue the "high quality" musicians are really struggling for the most part, and there are fewer of them overall.  

It would be harder still to get good players to fill in for Beach Boys shows, agreed.  It's a fairly specialized talent pool...but those folks are definitely out there.

I agree I way oversimplified. I specified in my second sentence "for those who have not established themselves as high quality artists..." because I realize there are a lot of skilled and talented musicians who never get established as such in the market because the pay starting out is so low and spotty, a lot of people end up doing other things. Most of my art school friends work at entirely unrelated jobs and the rest at professional graphic design-type things. Some seemed to have plenty of talent, but things didn't pan out and they needed to make a living.
The word "quality" is really not the word I should have used but I'm not sure what the word I should have used is - I sort of danced around this in my edit note.
Point is, I take your points fully. Lots of artists who would've done great work had the pieces fallen into place fell by the wayside because it's very rare for those pieces to align.

I was a pilot and worked in aviation, as well.  No one seems to want to pay pilots anymore for the education and practice skill level it takes to fly safely either.  Welcome to the world of the bottom line running everything.  Even our art.  Happy flying, everyone.  And, so far, so good for Brian's band, whom I adore.  I haven't heard the M&B show, but no doubt, they're talented.

a pilot? cool.

[Emily]

Although Surf Patrol's numbers have been discredited, could the $200 number have been the rate back when he had contacts in the band? When M&B were first starting out around 1998 I'm sure there would have been some lean years before the act got established. Those musicians being paid 'Beach Boys' numbers prior possibly had to take a cut or move on.

Just wondering.

Kowalski left the band in September 2007: I'm guessing he was paid more than $200/show by then, but in any case, Hennessey clearly stated that the band are currently being paid $200... which has been shown up as a complete lie. Hennessey's primary grouch is very simple: no friends in the band any more, no comps or BSPs.

Someone (John Manning? Andrew Hickey?) said upthread that that's the union base rate. If so, I'm guessing some people who work for the tour make that amount. So perhaps the $200 was a misapplied extrapolation.

[Pretty Funky]

Although Surf Patrol's numbers have been discredited, could the $200 number have been the rate back when he had contacts in the band? When M&B were first starting out around 1998 I'm sure there would have been some lean years before the act got established. Those musicians being paid 'Beach Boys' numbers prior possibly had to take a cut or move on.

Just wondering.

Kowalski left the band in September 2007: I'm guessing he was paid more than $200/show by then, but in any case, Hennessey clearly stated that the band are currently being paid $200... which has been shown up as a complete lie. Hennessey's primary grouch is very simple: no friends in the band any more, no comps or BSPs.

Ya know.....If I was in a group and some wanna be fanboy kept asking me "what do you get paid" I would probably make up some low ball figure just to shut him up! Possibly the case here. It was none of his business.

[adamghost]

John Oates recently said (and he's not the first), "I'll play for free.  You have to pay me to leave the house, get on a plane, stay in a hotel..."  That's really it.  I've done my share of touring and it is really tough on your body, in ways that are both manifest at the time and that you don't even realize until you stop (says the guy who's now a full-time studio musician-producer and rarely tours anymore).  I'm sure the guys in Mike's band make decent money, the real question is the money vs. the stress factor, which other folks have rightly touched on.

I loved Emily's point about pilots.  It is the same thing though happily not as life threatening.  There are so many factors that I could write a whole thesis about (but I won't), the bottom line being that in today's day and age conditions are not conducive to people making a career out of music or to becoming really good musicians if they do.  It's just a less lucrative AND less competitive market, so musicians make less cash and they don't play as well, the two of which are correlated. 

If you want to see truly great musicians, go to a wedding or a corporate event, because that's where the pros are now.  Or any bar in Southeast Asia, pretty much, where there's still a motivational factor.