Carol Kaye's BS

[CenturyDeprived]

Yes, Kaye is an incredibly talented bassist and guitarist- that cannot be denied.

However, I was listening to this Hal Blaine interview, and let's just say he had some heated words for Carol. It's a great interview, but listen at around 13:15  to hear about Kaye

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us0nDMASZoM

Carol's a legendary musician, but as Hal put it, Carol's "become a saboteur". Hal even claims she wasn't an actual part of the WC, but rather an "augementer" who started as one of seven or so guitarists on the dates before being given a break by Phil, and someone who has gone on to take credit due not only to James Jamerson, but also to Ray Pohlman, as well as wreaking havoc among the survivors of Earl Palmer, that other bass players consider her a laughing stock, and that the courts are now tired of her BS. Hal spends a good 6 or 7 minutes on the topic of CK, and finishes by saying "That's our Carol - there's nothing you can do about it, but she's nuts."

With all due respect to Carol, it's highly possible that she is in fact not mentally well, and this may be the case for years during which time her wild claims started. I am truthfully not saying that as an insult, but as an outside observation. I feel bad for someone who has some apparent insatiable urge to steal credits from others, and alienating the vast majority of their peers in the process, because I think these are not actions of someone right in the head. I think Phil Spector has similarly not been well for years either, although of course "not well" manifests itself in very different actions from different people.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Four words: Who gives a sh#t?  

Are you really saying who cares about the accurate history of the band? I guess we can shut down the board.

Yeah, man, I can't wait to learn what color shirt, what shoes, and socks he wore when he went to the restaurant last week.  But, with the obsessive compulsives on here, I won't have to wait too long.

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

Please don't quote OSD, it means I still get to see his drivel. 

Yes, and I and others get to see your unsavory vomit as well. WGRCR, Bub. 

[Peter Reum]

Ms. Kaye had to prove herself in a male dominated environment. There is no question that she played on sessions yielding hundreds  of great  recordings. I don't think that her memory is as functional as it once was.  Despite the fiestiness that she has when  people challenge  her memory, I do not think she deliberately  confabulates  her history. As we get older, our memory is cloudy and our patience is shorter. She deserves the respect she demands, if only for the pioneering role she played in making female musicians  a reality in the Sixties.

[AndrewHickey]

Ms. Kaye had to prove herself in a male dominated environment. There is no question that she played on sessions yielding hundreds  of great  recordings. I don't think that her memory is as functional as it once was.  Despite the fiestiness that she has when  people challenge  her memory, I do not think she deliberately  confabulates  her history. As we get older, our memory is cloudy and our patience is shorter. She deserves the respect she demands, if only for the pioneering role she played in making female musicians  a reality in the Sixties.

I disagree. She has been making these claims publicly *at least* since 1987, when Allan Slutsky contacted her while he was writing his book about Jamerson. And he contacted her because he'd heard rumours that she'd been making the claims for years before that.
"She's old and her memory isn't what it was" is a perfectly reasonable excuse *now*, when she's eighty. But it doesn't explain the thirty-year (at least) history of fraudulently claiming many other people's work. Jamerson is just the most famous -- she also claims, for example, to have played on many Monkees hits, when she played on precisely two Monkees album tracks, widely considered the two worst tracks they ever recorded.
Now, *some* of her incorrect claims could, of course, be memory problems. I think anyone could be forgiven, for example, for the claim that she makes on her website about Love -- she says she played on "Alone Again Or" and "The Daily Planet" from Forever Changes. She did play on The Daily Planet, but the other track she played on was Andmoreagain. Confusing two tracks on the same album with very similar titles is the kind of mistake anyone could make. Similarly, if she thinks she played on a couple of early Beach Boys tracks she didn't, when she did play on many Beach Boys tracks and she played on contemporary cover versions of those songs, that makes sense. I can understand why she thinks she's on Good Vibrations, as she did play on some sessions for it, even if she's not on the final track.
But claiming another musician's *entire body of work*, as she does with Jamerson, is simply not something anyone does accidentally or innocently, especially when presented with the sheer volume of evidence that points the other way. Kaye has either been suffering from some sort of mental illness for at least thirty years, or (FAR more likely, in my opinion), she at least started lying in an attempt at financial gain.
And note that she makes these claims on the same website where she sells her bass lessons, books, and DVDs. She is, in my view, committing fraud by doing so. If you buy a tuition DVD believing it's by the person who played that fantastic bass part on "Bernadette" by the Four Tops, or on "Last Train To Clarksville" by the Monkees, and it isn't by either of those people, you have been defrauded.
If she stuck to just -- or even mostly -- claiming stuff she actually did, she'd deserve all the respect we could give her and more. But she has engaged in a thirty-year campaign to steal the credit for other people's work. That deserves only contempt.

[Micha]

Please don't quote OSD, it means I still get to see his drivel. 

I thought he'd stopped posting here!

Not yet, but it's on my Christmas wish list.

As noted, an unquestionably important part of music history.  But for me, it's the window into her personality that reveals possible issues. And I get this strictly from her Facebook posts. Everybody is against her; The Wrecking Crew, the Banks, Politicians, even her own Facebook friends.

Whoa, she fares worse than Mike!

[adamghost]

She deserves respect for her accomplishments, and some sympathy for her age, but she deserves no deference for being unpleasant, ungracious, egocentric, arrogant, hostile and combative.  I know she is likely in a lot of psychic pain herself, but she has hurt people by her behavior, including some I care about, and it's simply not cool in my book.

[filledeplage]

Ms. Kaye had to prove herself in a male dominated environment. There is no question that she played on sessions yielding hundreds  of great  recordings. I don't think that her memory is as functional as it once was.  Despite the fiestiness that she has when  people challenge  her memory, I do not think she deliberately  confabulates  her history. As we get older, our memory is cloudy and our patience is shorter. She deserves the respect she demands, if only for the pioneering role she played in making female musicians  a reality in the Sixties.

Peter - I agree with you on this.  She was a rock and roll survivor and pioneer for her time.  I take my hat off to her.  But, it is too bad that the "who did what, and when" issues are unresolved because it taints her legacy.  She didn't have to "do it all" - but just the fact she was "in the game" in any capacity was a great thing and Brian does seem to really like her, so that is good enough for me.  

[The LEGENDARY OSD]

She deserves respect for her accomplishments, and some sympathy for her age, but she deserves no deference for being unpleasant, ungracious, egocentric, arrogant, hostile and combative.  I know she is likely in a lot of psychic pain herself, but she has hurt people by her behavior, including some I care about, and it's simply not cool in my book.

That colorful description sounds exactly like some I've encountered here. Hmmm. 

[CosmicDancer]

The biggest issue to me is that when confronted with factual evidence that she didn't play on certain cuts, she still defiantly insists that everyone else is wrong and she is right.  If she would graciously accept the facts, I don't think anyone would blame her for having a cloudy memory considering the fact that she played on endless sessions and probably didn't even know what the finished product sounded like in many cases.  So goes the life of a session musician in that time.  Lying in the face of the facts is unforgivable.

[lukpac]

Ms. Kaye had to prove herself in a male dominated environment. There is no question that she played on sessions yielding hundreds  of great  recordings. I don't think that her memory is as functional as it once was.  Despite the fiestiness that she has when  people challenge  her memory, I do not think she deliberately  confabulates  her history. As we get older, our memory is cloudy and our patience is shorter. She deserves the respect she demands, if only for the pioneering role she played in making female musicians  a reality in the Sixties.

I disagree. She has been making these claims publicly *at least* since 1987, when Allan Slutsky contacted her while he was writing his book about Jamerson. And he contacted her because he'd heard rumours that she'd been making the claims for years before that.

*Much* earlier. 1973. Rolling Stone interview:

"Carol Kaye is one of the few successful female session musicians, certainly one of Los Angeles' finest and busiest bassists. Her list of credits includes some surprises: Motown hits such as "Love Child," "I Was Made to Love Her," "Bernadette," "Get Ready," "Do The Jerk."

She's played bass for Ray Charles on every session since (and including) "I Don't Need No Doctor." In the rock genre she is heard on several Beach Boys records, including "Help Me Ronda," "Good Vibrations," "Heroes And Villains" and "Sloop John B." She played on Simon and Garfunkel's "Homeward Bound," Joe Cocker's "Feelin' Alright," Nancy Sinatra's bass-heavy "These Boots Are Made for Walkin'," Glen Campbell's "Wichita Lineman."
[...]
"Motown recorded about half here and half in Detroit," she said. "They were saving money because they were a new company, so we played for less than union scale. Hell, we thought they were demos, but when we heard them as hits we demanded scale.""

Rolling Stone, November 22, 1973. Page 26.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Methinks it is funny to critisize this lady whenever the subject comes up, whereas absolutely fine to defend rocky pamplin & ask other posters, "Don't run him off". She at least has some credentials as a musician. He's just a nobody; plain Joe as it were.

Indeed. Like how everyone was sucking up to Daro to listen to how apparently all Brian's best songs were actually about him and his wife, Marilyn is a "cow" etc. Just because you were "there" doesnt mean your memory isnt faulty or you dont have a bias/agenda to promote, or whatever else. I dont mind it held against Carol Kaye but it should then be held against EVERYONE spewing obvious BS

[Micha]

Like how everyone was sucking up to Daro

Not everyone. In fact, Daro was very controversial from the start.

Do I need to read the Rocky Pamplin thread? Wasn't drawn to the thread by its title.

[CenturyDeprived]

Ms. Kaye had to prove herself in a male dominated environment. There is no question that she played on sessions yielding hundreds  of great  recordings. I don't think that her memory is as functional as it once was.  Despite the fiestiness that she has when  people challenge  her memory, I do not think she deliberately  confabulates  her history. As we get older, our memory is cloudy and our patience is shorter. She deserves the respect she demands, if only for the pioneering role she played in making female musicians  a reality in the Sixties.

I disagree. She has been making these claims publicly *at least* since 1987, when Allan Slutsky contacted her while he was writing his book about Jamerson. And he contacted her because he'd heard rumours that she'd been making the claims for years before that.

*Much* earlier. 1973. Rolling Stone interview:

"Carol Kaye is one of the few successful female session musicians, certainly one of Los Angeles' finest and busiest bassists. Her list of credits includes some surprises: Motown hits such as "Love Child," "I Was Made to Love Her," "Bernadette," "Get Ready," "Do The Jerk."

She's played bass for Ray Charles on every session since (and including) "I Don't Need No Doctor." In the rock genre she is heard on several Beach Boys records, including "Help Me Ronda," "Good Vibrations," "Heroes And Villains" and "Sloop John B." She played on Simon and Garfunkel's "Homeward Bound," Joe Cocker's "Feelin' Alright," Nancy Sinatra's bass-heavy "These Boots Are Made for Walkin'," Glen Campbell's "Wichita Lineman."
[...]
"Motown recorded about half here and half in Detroit," she said. "They were saving money because they were a new company, so we played for less than union scale. Hell, we thought they were demos, but when we heard them as hits we demanded scale.""

Rolling Stone, November 22, 1973. Page 26.

I can't speak for any of the other bolded songs, but least with regards to Good Vibrations, I can't see how a statement made in 1973 that she was heard on that song is out of line. She did play on session(s) for it; nobody had done a forensic examination of the song at that point to know what portions were edited together, so I have no problem believing that SHE believed without a doubt that she played on the released version.

Years later in the face of heavily-researched forensic facts is a different matter of course.

[Sound of Free]

I love Hal's quote, when Denny Tedesco told him Carol would be in the interview. "I said, 'Denny, I'll tell you something right now, I have nothing against Carol, but any question you ask any of us, she's going to answer."

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Like how everyone was sucking up to Daro

Not everyone. In fact, Daro was very controversial from the start.

Correct. He's basically a human septic tank, cause he's full for sh*t

[Micha]

Like how everyone was sucking up to Daro

Not everyone. In fact, Daro was very controversial from the start.

Correct. He's basically a human septic tank, cause he's full for sh*t

An Australian would say, he's a "seppo".

[Andrew G. Doe]

Indeed. Like how everyone was sucking up to Daro...

May I respectfully suggest you go back to that thread and check your statement ? Think you'll find that not "everyone" was...

[lukpac]

I can't speak for any of the other bolded songs, but least with regards to Good Vibrations, I can't see how a statement made in 1973 that she was heard on that song is out of line. She did play on session(s) for it; nobody had done a forensic examination of the song at that point to know what portions were edited together, so I have no problem believing that SHE believed without a doubt that she played on the released version.

Years later in the face of heavily-researched forensic facts is a different matter of course.

Yes, Good Vibrations falls into the "reasonable doubt" category.

The Motown songs do not, and did not, however.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Indeed - she knew she was lying about "IWMTLH", and more to the point , while JJ was still alive. Despicable.

[CenturyDeprived]

I can't speak for any of the other bolded songs, but least with regards to Good Vibrations, I can't see how a statement made in 1973 that she was heard on that song is out of line. She did play on session(s) for it; nobody had done a forensic examination of the song at that point to know what portions were edited together, so I have no problem believing that SHE believed without a doubt that she played on the released version.

Years later in the face of heavily-researched forensic facts is a different matter of course.

Yes, Good Vibrations falls into the "reasonable doubt" category.

The Motown songs do not, and did not, however.

I'm trying to wrap my head around why she (or anyone) would do this. It's like trying to understand insanity from a logic standpoint, so it's not terribly easy to do. If she KNEW then that she was outright making false claims, I'm trying to understand how she thought she'd get away with it.  Greed and bitterness are one thing, but thinking one can actually get away with it in plain sight is quite another.

Granted, there was no internet back then. But was she/is she really so naive to think that she could just make false claims, and not have them challenged? Or is she looking to constantly fight, and SEEKING to be viciously arguing endlessly about said claims for decades to come, by both the actual musicians in question, as well as historians?

I just cannot wrap my head around someone intentionally lying that much, unless she actually THINKS she was on those songs through some lapse of memory/confusion, or is in a gigantic state of denial. Like, what would her lie detector readout say? Has she simply made herself believe falsehoods? It's so, so strange.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Indeed. Like how everyone was sucking up to Daro...

May I respectfully suggest you go back to that thread and check your statement ? Think you'll find that not "everyone" was...

Ok, ok. I apologize. Poor choice of words, bad use of generalization.

[Wild-Honey]

Like how everyone was sucking up to Daro

Not everyone. In fact, Daro was very controversial from the start.

Correct. He's basically a human septic tank, cause he's full for sh*t

An Australian would say, he's a "seppo".

Well actually seppo does mean septic tank but it's slang for yanks not full of sh*t. Although..... someone could be both

[SteveMC]

I used to buy Bass Player magazine regularly in the 90s and she was featured in an issue.
It was a great interview but I remember she said Brian's charts were a little amateurish or something like that.

[puni puni]

Yes, that they were sometimes written incorrectly