Opinions on LGBT rights

[alf wiedersehen]

Hey, everyone, this thread isn't about you, so shut your face please.
Let's stick to the topic of The Beach Boys and their opinions.

[Smilin Ed H]

I imagine it would have been fairly difficult to be involved in the, let's call it, entertainment industry, without knowing people who were gay or knowing that people were gay, especially when they were your manager and lyricist. They also worked with Curt Becher or however the hell you want to spell his name at whatever point in his career. It wasn't like, "No way, he's gay!" was it? Though, granted, HCTN wasn't 'macho city' enough for Dennis.

[chaki]

Dude people didn't even admit that Liberace and Rob Halford were gay!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Liberace was gay ? Well, who knew ? 

[Emily]

Dude people didn't even admit that Liberace and Rob Halford were gay!

In the 60s there were lots of openly gay or bisexual artists - beat writers, people involved with the Factory scene in NY, Truman Capote... But, it was not discussed in/on mainstream media (other than references to "confirmed bachelors") until the late 60s, 70s. And then, still, artists that felt that broad commercial appeal mattered, like Liberace, tried to avoid confirmation.

The Beach Boys were from a pretty conservative enclave and it seems did many of their early performances in suburby venues, rather than in divey urban clubs, so didn't have the kinds of experiences and exposure of a lot of bands.

Then, they worked a lot in the rather conservative LA industry. I'd guess it's not likely that they encountered a lot of people out of the mainstream until the mid-sixties.

[GhostyTMRS]

If it affects one's enjoyment of the music either way, there's a problem.

Eh. Yes and no. I can respect Orson Scott Card's writing even tho he's a total bigot. I still have an unabashed celebrity crush on young Grace Slick even tho her autobiography made her seem really airheaded and some anecdotes from other 60s musician bios made her out to be kind of a Bitch. But as someone pretty heavily in the B and T parts of the spectrum...it'd really upset me to think Brian would look down on me for that. Obviously I'd still love the music, but part of the appeal of Brian as a personal idol/inspiration to me is how sweet and genuine he is, and how much sh*t he's been thru which I assume would make him more empathetic and open-minded to the suffering of others. I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today, it would definitely take something away from my admiration for him.

I distinctly remember his Facebook page shared a rainbow flag when gay marriage was legalized tho. Maybe just jumping on the bandwagon, maybe just good PR, but I like to believe it was a sincere gesture of support.

I agree. It's unfair to judge what was socially acceptable or not even known much about from the prism of 50 years later. The Beatles made tons of wisecracks about gays and used demeaning language that would never fly today, and yet their manager was gay and evidently none of them had a problem with his homosexuality. I'm sure Brian, Mike, Al, whoever..used incredibly insulting verbiage and slurs at the time because they had been socially conditioned to do so, and despite the talent and sensitivity they had as artists, they were just young guys in their 20's...basically right out of high school...which automatically made them immature goofballs no matter how brilliant they may have been musically.  

I highly doubt these same guys in their 70's, even setting aside how social norms change through the decades, think the same way.

As much as we like to think that we're nuanced and progressive in 2015 compared to how things were 50 years ago, it's inevitable that someone in 2065 will look back at blogs and social media comments from people in 2015 and think "Geez, the people back in 2015 were so ignorant and backwards".  

[Amy B.]

The Beach Boys were raised in an era when many children were conditioned to believe that being gay was a disorder or a disease. They were also raised in a conservative atmosphere and weren't the most worldly people, despite their tours and everything. They likely met gay people but maybe not OUT gay people, as being out wasn't the norm. I'm not making excuses for them or presuming to know what their views were. Hopefully, if they ever DID have a problem, their minds opened over time, as happened with a lot of Americans.

I thought that Brian went to Elton John's wedding. Am I mistaken?

[CenturyDeprived]

Jack was a big part of the band for a critical juncture in thier career. Brian did publicly mention Jack's passing on Facebook, while some other BB member(s) did not, as far as I know. That may mean absolutely nothing with regards to this topic, or it might mean something. Not making any claims, since all of us are just guessing with regards to this topic; just something to ponder, since it did surprise and disappoint me a bit.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If it affects one's enjoyment of the music either way, there's a problem.

Eh. Yes and no. I can respect Orson Scott Card's writing even tho he's a total bigot. I still have an unabashed celebrity crush on young Grace Slick even tho her autobiography made her seem really airheaded and some anecdotes from other 60s musician bios made her out to be kind of a Bitch. But as someone pretty heavily in the B and T parts of the spectrum...it'd really upset me to think Brian would look down on me for that. Obviously I'd still love the music, but part of the appeal of Brian as a personal idol/inspiration to me is how sweet and genuine he is, and how much sh*t he's been thru which I assume would make him more empathetic and open-minded to the suffering of others. I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today, it would definitely take something away from my admiration for him.

I distinctly remember his Facebook page shared a rainbow flag when gay marriage was legalized tho. Maybe just jumping on the bandwagon, maybe just good PR, but I like to believe it was a sincere gesture of support.

It's unfair to judge what was socially acceptable or not even known much about from the prism of 50 years later. The Beatles made tons of wisecracks about gays and used demeaning language that would never fly today, and yet their manager was gay and evidently none of them had a problem with his homosexuality. I'm sure Brian, Mike, Al, whoever..used incredibly insulting verbiage and slurs at the time because they had been socially conditioned to do so, and despite the talent and sensitivity they had as artists, they were just young guys in their 20's...basically right out of high school...which automatically made them immature goofballs no matter how brilliant they may have been musically. 

I highly doubt these same guys in their 70's, even setting aside how social norms change through the decades, think the same way.

As much as we like to think that we're nuanced and progressive in 2015 compared to how things were 50 years ago, it's inevitable that someone in 2065 will look back at blogs and social media comments from people in 2015 and think "Geez, the people back in 2015 were so ignorant and backwards".   

C'mon man, did you even read my post? I specifically said "I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today..."

[GhostyTMRS]

If it affects one's enjoyment of the music either way, there's a problem.

Eh. Yes and no. I can respect Orson Scott Card's writing even tho he's a total bigot. I still have an unabashed celebrity crush on young Grace Slick even tho her autobiography made her seem really airheaded and some anecdotes from other 60s musician bios made her out to be kind of a Bitch. But as someone pretty heavily in the B and T parts of the spectrum...it'd really upset me to think Brian would look down on me for that. Obviously I'd still love the music, but part of the appeal of Brian as a personal idol/inspiration to me is how sweet and genuine he is, and how much sh*t he's been thru which I assume would make him more empathetic and open-minded to the suffering of others. I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today, it would definitely take something away from my admiration for him.

I distinctly remember his Facebook page shared a rainbow flag when gay marriage was legalized tho. Maybe just jumping on the bandwagon, maybe just good PR, but I like to believe it was a sincere gesture of support.

It's unfair to judge what was socially acceptable or not even known much about from the prism of 50 years later. The Beatles made tons of wisecracks about gays and used demeaning language that would never fly today, and yet their manager was gay and evidently none of them had a problem with his homosexuality. I'm sure Brian, Mike, Al, whoever..used incredibly insulting verbiage and slurs at the time because they had been socially conditioned to do so, and despite the talent and sensitivity they had as artists, they were just young guys in their 20's...basically right out of high school...which automatically made them immature goofballs no matter how brilliant they may have been musically. 

I highly doubt these same guys in their 70's, even setting aside how social norms change through the decades, think the same way.

As much as we like to think that we're nuanced and progressive in 2015 compared to how things were 50 years ago, it's inevitable that someone in 2065 will look back at blogs and social media comments from people in 2015 and think "Geez, the people back in 2015 were so ignorant and backwards".   

C'mon man, did you even read my post? I specifically said "I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today..."

Yeah...um...I was agreeing with you. I'll go back and throw "I agree" at the top of it. Maybe you'll see where I was coming from. Sorry for the confusion.

[Gerry]

Yes, I think Brian did go to Elton's wedding but as I understand it he kept wondering when the bride would be there.

[Emily]

Yes, I think Brian did go to Elton's wedding but as I understand it he kept wondering when the bride would be there.

If a joke, kind of funny. If not, kind of sad.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If it affects one's enjoyment of the music either way, there's a problem.

Eh. Yes and no. I can respect Orson Scott Card's writing even tho he's a total bigot. I still have an unabashed celebrity crush on young Grace Slick even tho her autobiography made her seem really airheaded and some anecdotes from other 60s musician bios made her out to be kind of a Bitch. But as someone pretty heavily in the B and T parts of the spectrum...it'd really upset me to think Brian would look down on me for that. Obviously I'd still love the music, but part of the appeal of Brian as a personal idol/inspiration to me is how sweet and genuine he is, and how much sh*t he's been thru which I assume would make him more empathetic and open-minded to the suffering of others. I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today, it would definitely take something away from my admiration for him.

I distinctly remember his Facebook page shared a rainbow flag when gay marriage was legalized tho. Maybe just jumping on the bandwagon, maybe just good PR, but I like to believe it was a sincere gesture of support.

It's unfair to judge what was socially acceptable or not even known much about from the prism of 50 years later. The Beatles made tons of wisecracks about gays and used demeaning language that would never fly today, and yet their manager was gay and evidently none of them had a problem with his homosexuality. I'm sure Brian, Mike, Al, whoever..used incredibly insulting verbiage and slurs at the time because they had been socially conditioned to do so, and despite the talent and sensitivity they had as artists, they were just young guys in their 20's...basically right out of high school...which automatically made them immature goofballs no matter how brilliant they may have been musically. 

I highly doubt these same guys in their 70's, even setting aside how social norms change through the decades, think the same way.

As much as we like to think that we're nuanced and progressive in 2015 compared to how things were 50 years ago, it's inevitable that someone in 2065 will look back at blogs and social media comments from people in 2015 and think "Geez, the people back in 2015 were so ignorant and backwards".   

C'mon man, did you even read my post? I specifically said "I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today..."

Yeah...um...I was agreeing with you. I'll go back and throw "I agree" at the top of it. Maybe you'll see where I was coming from. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, fair enough. It's just that when you reiterate what I'm saying like that w/o indicating that I've said it, it comes off differently than simply agreeing. Just one of many miscommunications when just text is used tho I guess

[orange22]

If it affects one's enjoyment of the music either way, there's a problem.

This I would disagree with. Of course there is a huge spectrum to consider, but my take on your statement is that ANY level of homophobia (or what have you) shouldn't affect your enjoyment of the music, i.e. separate the art from the artist. But I much prefer to enjoy and support musicians who I appreciate outside of their music as well (or as much as you can ascertain), even just down to how they carry themselves.

[GhostyTMRS]

If it affects one's enjoyment of the music either way, there's a problem.

Eh. Yes and no. I can respect Orson Scott Card's writing even tho he's a total bigot. I still have an unabashed celebrity crush on young Grace Slick even tho her autobiography made her seem really airheaded and some anecdotes from other 60s musician bios made her out to be kind of a Bitch. But as someone pretty heavily in the B and T parts of the spectrum...it'd really upset me to think Brian would look down on me for that. Obviously I'd still love the music, but part of the appeal of Brian as a personal idol/inspiration to me is how sweet and genuine he is, and how much sh*t he's been thru which I assume would make him more empathetic and open-minded to the suffering of others. I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today, it would definitely take something away from my admiration for him.

I distinctly remember his Facebook page shared a rainbow flag when gay marriage was legalized tho. Maybe just jumping on the bandwagon, maybe just good PR, but I like to believe it was a sincere gesture of support.

It's unfair to judge what was socially acceptable or not even known much about from the prism of 50 years later. The Beatles made tons of wisecracks about gays and used demeaning language that would never fly today, and yet their manager was gay and evidently none of them had a problem with his homosexuality. I'm sure Brian, Mike, Al, whoever..used incredibly insulting verbiage and slurs at the time because they had been socially conditioned to do so, and despite the talent and sensitivity they had as artists, they were just young guys in their 20's...basically right out of high school...which automatically made them immature goofballs no matter how brilliant they may have been musically. 

I highly doubt these same guys in their 70's, even setting aside how social norms change through the decades, think the same way.

As much as we like to think that we're nuanced and progressive in 2015 compared to how things were 50 years ago, it's inevitable that someone in 2065 will look back at blogs and social media comments from people in 2015 and think "Geez, the people back in 2015 were so ignorant and backwards".   

C'mon man, did you even read my post? I specifically said "I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today..."

Yeah...um...I was agreeing with you. I'll go back and throw "I agree" at the top of it. Maybe you'll see where I was coming from. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, fair enough. It's just that when you reiterate what I'm saying like that w/o indicating that I've said it, it comes off differently than simply agreeing. Just one of many miscommunications when just text is used tho I guess

Yeah, I see what you mean. I just liked what you wrote and wanted to bounce off it. Lol

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yes, I think Brian did go to Elton's wedding but as I understand it he kept wondering when the bride would be there.

Y'know, I find that pretty insulting. To Brian, implying that he'd not know by then that Elton was gay, and to the posters here, expecting they'd find it amusing.

As long as someone makes good music, their sexual orientation is irrelevant to me. In fact, the only thing that's made me dump CDs and pull tracks from my iPod is someone being convicted of paedophilia.

And yes, I can see this debate heading down The Road Best Not Taken. Blink of an eye.

[ontor pertawst]

Liquidated your Rolf Harris collection, then? Yeah, this thread is pretty embarrassing. Geez, the people back in 2015 were so ignorant and backwards.

[Smilin Ed H]

Dude people didn't even admit that Liberace and Rob Halford were gay!

Admitting is one thing. Knowing is another.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Liquidated your Rolf Harris collection, then?

Sir, you are entirely correct ! Some of his early stuff (produced by one George Martin, btw), would be called world music today, but when the news emerged... no question, had to go. Thankfully I was never a Lostprophets fan.

[Mike's Beard]

Bet you've had a Gary Glitter cd or two at the back of your collection, though eh?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Bet you've had a Gary Glitter cd or two at the back of your collection, though eh?

Nope, never have. Well, he is on the original Jesus Christ, Superstar, but has maybe two lines - I can overlook that.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

If it affects one's enjoyment of the music either way, there's a problem.

Eh. Yes and no. I can respect Orson Scott Card's writing even tho he's a total bigot. I still have an unabashed celebrity crush on young Grace Slick even tho her autobiography made her seem really airheaded and some anecdotes from other 60s musician bios made her out to be kind of a Bitch. But as someone pretty heavily in the B and T parts of the spectrum...it'd really upset me to think Brian would look down on me for that. Obviously I'd still love the music, but part of the appeal of Brian as a personal idol/inspiration to me is how sweet and genuine he is, and how much sh*t he's been thru which I assume would make him more empathetic and open-minded to the suffering of others. I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today, it would definitely take something away from my admiration for him.

I distinctly remember his Facebook page shared a rainbow flag when gay marriage was legalized tho. Maybe just jumping on the bandwagon, maybe just good PR, but I like to believe it was a sincere gesture of support.

It's unfair to judge what was socially acceptable or not even known much about from the prism of 50 years later. The Beatles made tons of wisecracks about gays and used demeaning language that would never fly today, and yet their manager was gay and evidently none of them had a problem with his homosexuality. I'm sure Brian, Mike, Al, whoever..used incredibly insulting verbiage and slurs at the time because they had been socially conditioned to do so, and despite the talent and sensitivity they had as artists, they were just young guys in their 20's...basically right out of high school...which automatically made them immature goofballs no matter how brilliant they may have been musically. 

I highly doubt these same guys in their 70's, even setting aside how social norms change through the decades, think the same way.

As much as we like to think that we're nuanced and progressive in 2015 compared to how things were 50 years ago, it's inevitable that someone in 2065 will look back at blogs and social media comments from people in 2015 and think "Geez, the people back in 2015 were so ignorant and backwards".   

C'mon man, did you even read my post? I specifically said "I don't care if he was against it in the 60s and 70s; it was a different time, when such things were unheard of and scandalous. But if it came out he still felt that way today..."

Yeah...um...I was agreeing with you. I'll go back and throw "I agree" at the top of it. Maybe you'll see where I was coming from. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, fair enough. It's just that when you reiterate what I'm saying like that w/o indicating that I've said it, it comes off differently than simply agreeing. Just one of many miscommunications when just text is used tho I guess

Yeah, I see what you mean. I just liked what you wrote and wanted to bounce off it. Lol

Its all good.

And yes, I can see this thread getting out of hand too, but I think its fair for someone to be curious. Personally, based on the flag and RIP for Jack and everything, I think its fair to say regardless of what his feelings may have been, Brian is supportive of LGBT people now and thats all that matters. Bruce seems to be too based on what someone said of his blaming the death of disco on homophobia (why would he care/bring that up if he wasnt sympathetic?). As for Carl and Dennis, we may never know and personally I dont care. They could have harbored homicidal tendencies and we'll never know, so its no good speculating about unknown aspects of their character after death. Enjoy the music. I personally dont look up to Mike or Al (no offense to them personally) or care about their worldviews so it doesnt matter to me if theyre supportive or homophobic or not. Id be disappointed, but it wouldnt seriously effect my enjoyment of their work, similar to Orson Scott Card and Grace Slick. Nothing takes away from how awesome Enders Game is, or the magnificence of Surrealistic Pillow, After Bathing at Baxters and the Smothers Brothers performance of White Rabbit. The only person it'd matter to me personally is Brian, and thats only because I look up to him as a hero. Hard to think of someone as your hero knowing theyd hate you over something you cant change, y'know?

So, I think the question is pretty much answered for all the people alive. We know Brian is supportive, and Bruce at least sympathetic. If Al and Mike are not, at least they have the good sense to keep it to themselves and not go around making bigoted statements. Thats really all that matters, I'd say.

[The Shift]

Can we be clear that Rolf Harris and Gary Glitter have nothing to do with LGBT, nothing at all, and are entirely off topic.

[Emily]

Can we be clear that Rolf Harris and Gary Glitter have nothing to do with LGBT, nothing at all, and are entirely off topic.

Oh god, yes, please. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Can we be clear that Rolf Harris and Gary Glitter have nothing to do with LGBT, nothing at all, and are entirely off topic.

Of course: a slight detour down a dead end, for which I apologise.