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Author Topic: New (?!) theory about SMiLE: actual symphony form?  (Read 2413 times)
shangaijoeBB
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« on: December 01, 2015, 08:34:05 AM »

As anybody ever tried this? Brian talked about SMiLE being his "Teenage Symphony To God" in two movements (in 1967, contained within 12 tracks), but did he really wanted to produce a pop-rock symphony that followed the exact structure of a symphony?

I poked my nose around this summary by David Pogue and Scott Speck from Classical Music For Dummies, 2nd Edition and here's what I came up with :

Classical Music: The Movements of a Symphony

"The parts (or movements) of a symphony are usually free standing, with one movement ending, a pause, and then the next movement beginning. But the sections, conceived as parts of a whole, somehow relate to one another. The German word for movement is Satz, which means “sentence.” The four movements of a symphony fit together like the four sentences in this paragraph.With rare exceptions, the four movements of a symphony conform to a standardized pattern. The first movement is brisk and lively; the second is slower and more lyrical; the third is a boisterous scherzo (“joke”); and the fourth is a rollicking finale."


Let's say that Brian followed the structure by having side 1 being the Sonata and side 2 being the 2nd, 3rd movement and finale (here being regrouped as "The 2nd movement").

Side A: Americana Sonata (Sonata form)

"A movement in sonata form has two musical themes (or melodies). The first is usually loud and forceful; the second is quiet and lyrical. These themes are often referred to as the masculine and the feminine melodies."    

Could be both "Bicyle Rider" (female) and "Heroes & Villains fade (male)?

(from Wikipedia)
The Introduction section is optional, or may be reduced to a minimum. If it is extended, it is, in general, slower than the main section, and frequently focuses on the dominant key. It may or may not contain material that is later stated in the exposition. The introduction increases the weight of the movement, and also permits the composer to begin the exposition with a theme that would be too light to start on its own, as in Haydn's Symphony No. 103 ("The Drumroll") and Beethoven's Quintet for Piano and Winds Op. 16. The introduction usually is not included in the exposition repeat.


Starting with Our Prayer and Heroes & Villains (part 1 & 2 - the original 6 min version)

"At the very beginning of the movement, you hear the strong first theme; then, after a brief bit of interesting activity in the harmony department, the softer second theme comes in. This whole section’s purpose in life is to introduce, or expose, the two melodies; therefore, musicians call this part of the first movement the exposition."

Leads to Do You Like Worms

"Then comes a new section. Here the composer develops the two themes, varying them and making interesting musical associations. Logically enough, this section is called the development section."

then Im' In Great Shape (The four-part Barnyard suite - following soniclovenoize's reconstruction: Barnyard/Im' In Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night)

"Finally, the main ideas are reintroduced in the same order as at the beginning: first the strong, powerful theme and then the quieter, more lyrical one. The composer restates these themes in a slightly different form, but they’re very recognizable for what they are. This section is called the recapitulation."

The Old Master Painter (Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine/Heroes & Villains fade re-record with Carl)

(from Wikipedia)
"The Coda is optional. After the final cadence of the recapitulation, the movement may continue with a coda which will contain material from the movement proper. Codas, when present, vary considerably in length, but like introductions are not part of the "argument" of the work. The coda will end, however, with a perfect authentic cadence in the original key. Codas may be quite brief tailpieces, or they may be very long and elaborate. An example of the more extended type is the coda to the first movement of Beethoven's Eroica Symphony.


and finally, Cabin Essence

Recap
(First movement: brisk and lively)

Introduction
PRAYER/HEROES & VILLAINS PT 1 & 2
Exposition
DO YOU LIKE WORMS/I
Development
IM' IN GREAT SHAPE
Recapitulation
THE OLD MASTER PAINTER
Coda
CABIN ESSENCE


Side B: Life Suite (incorporation Second & Third movement and Finale)

(Second movement: slow and lyrical)
"Back to our symphony in progress: After the lively and energetic first movement, it’s time to relax. The second movement is usually slow and lyrical, with a lilting, songlike theme. No battle-of-the-sexes melody thing goes on here, and the structure can be looser than in the first movement. Sit back and drink it in."


Good Vibrations could fit here.

(Third movement: dancy)

"The third movement of a symphony is dancelike — a scherzo (meaning “joke” — a quick, often lighthearted tune). The third movement is usually written in three-quarter time; that is, each bar has three beats. (If you count “ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three,” you’re counting three beats to the bar.)

This third movement usually consists of three sections. First you hear the minuet or scherzo itself. Then comes a contrasting section (often for a smaller group of instruments) called a trio. Finally, the minuet or scherzo section comes back again.
So the entire third movement sounds like this:"


Scherzo:
VEGA-TABLES
Trio:
THE ELEMENTS (took inspiration from The Old Master Painter's version: Mrs. O' Leary's Cow/I Love To Say Da-Da/Whispering Winds)
Scherzo:
WIND CHIMES

Finale: rollicking
"Now on to the rollicking finale. The final movement is usually fast and furious, showing off the virtuosic prowess of the orchestra (...)Very often, this final movement is in rondo form. Yes, this last movement has a substructure of its own."


(from Wikipedia:)
"An explanation of sonata rondo form requires first some preliminary coverage of rondo form and sonata form.

Rondo form involves the repeated use of a theme, set in the tonic key, with episodes, each involving a new theme, intervening among the repetitions, like this: A B A C A D A ...

Sometimes the A section is varied slightly. The episodes (B, C, D, etc.) are normally in a different key from the tonic. A sonata form movement is divided into sections."


RONDO: Wonderful/Child Is Father Of The Man(3 min edit)/Surf's Up/Our Prayer (reprise)

recap

2nd Movement:
Good Vibrations

3rd Movement:

Scherzo:
VEGA-TABLES
Trio:
THE ELEMENTS
Schezo:
WIND CHIMES

Finale/Rondo:
WONDERFUL
CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN
SURF'S UP/PRAYER REPRISE


To me, it would seems kinda legit that Brian would do something similar to this back in 1967 but maybe im' just crazy for cocoa puffs... any thoughts?!



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alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2015, 09:24:42 AM »

I think it's an interesting theory, but that would be quite a sluggish rondo.
You might have to reorganize a bit.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 09:28:52 AM by Bubbly Waves » Logged
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2015, 11:20:33 AM »

With all due respect, yes you're coocoo for coco puffs. If anyone prefers the BWPS/TSS inspired 3 movement structure then that's their right and good for them. The problem I have is when that interpretation gets retroactively applied to the original album. There's no proof of it, other than anachronistic non evidence of the later releases and wish fulfillment. It bothers me because it muddied the waters for actual discussion of what might've been, and analysis of the evidence itself outside of the BWPS lens. It assumes Brian made SMiLE exactly as it would've been when he did BWPS which even he and Darian admit is not so. There was never a third movement until 2003, end of story.

Make whatever kinda SMiLE you want--the more variety of ideas the better. Just don't tell me it's what would've happened in '67 unless you've got some proof and a solid argument. And I think I've debunked a 3 suite 60s SMiLE pretty solidly before in other threads regarding this.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 11:40:49 AM by Mujan, B@st@rd of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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shangaijoeBB
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2015, 05:35:14 PM »

Okay...just to restate my case...we know the album in 1967 was going to be 12 tracks (all press at the time mentions it and we already have a pretty idea of what those 12 tracks were on the back cover. Even if Brian today doesn't remember the list, there's too much evidence (including a testimony from a certain Van Dyke Parks agreeing to this 12-14 tracks format) to acknowledge the album would be structured otherwise.

Then, we have this BW Earcandy interview from 2004: http://www.earcandymag.com/brianwilson-2004.htm

"E.C.: Also in "Beautiful Dreamer" you said - "We touched up the first two movements and we created a third movement. Now we have a rock opera - a three movement rock opera." Did you originally think of SMiLE as a "rock opera" or was that a recent…

Brian Wilson: We thought of it as 2-movement rock opera. Then we added a third then we called it a 3-movement rock opera."


We don't know if we can take this for cold-hard fact, but it's pretty much the only contemporary interview where Brian talks about the original structure of the album...

Two movements. Two sides. 12 tracks. A Teenage "Symophony" to God. I just tried to connect the dots. With all due respect, Mujan, please don't think you have the final truth on everything SMiLE... nobody does.
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Emily
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2015, 08:53:08 PM »

I like the idea and it's a good start to a structure.
I agree with Bubbly Waves, though: The Finale is too sluggish. It needs more punch.
Also, Good Vibrations is not slow enough for the second movement. Actually your finale would make a good second movement.
And Wind Chimes is too slow for a scherzo.
I think you'll have to move some things from the first movement to make this work.

You need a piece that's rousing and a summary at the end. Heroes and Villains might be suitable or Cabinessence. Or Do You Like Worms, maybe.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 08:59:12 PM by Emily » Logged
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2015, 09:59:27 PM »

Okay...just to restate my case...we know the album in 1967 was going to be 12 tracks (all press at the time mentions it and we already have a pretty idea of what those 12 tracks were on the back cover. Even if Brian today doesn't remember the list, there's too much evidence (including a testimony from a certain Van Dyke Parks agreeing to this 12-14 tracks format) to acknowledge the album would be structured otherwise.

Then, we have this BW Earcandy interview from 2004: http://www.earcandymag.com/brianwilson-2004.htm

"E.C.: Also in "Beautiful Dreamer" you said - "We touched up the first two movements and we created a third movement. Now we have a rock opera - a three movement rock opera." Did you originally think of SMiLE as a "rock opera" or was that a recent…

Brian Wilson: We thought of it as 2-movement rock opera. Then we added a third then we called it a 3-movement rock opera."


We don't know if we can take this for cold-hard fact, but it's pretty much the only contemporary interview where Brian talks about the original structure of the album...

Two movements. Two sides. 12 tracks. A Teenage "Symophony" to God. I just tried to connect the dots. With all due respect, Mujan, please don't think you have the final truth on everything SMiLE... nobody does.

I'm not saying I do, tho I am adamant that bwps isn't it. It's funny you used that quote in support of a 3 movement structure, when that's exactly what I was thinking of when I said Brian and VDP radically changed things from before. I believe in 2 suites across the 2 sides of vinyl. 3 just wouldn't fit. Itd have to be a double album or else two suites sharing a side, or one suite split across both sides. We know there was no indication of a double album. With those last two scenarios you have uneven suites as well as sides. If a suite is gonna be broken in half it defeats its own purpose and if one side is whole and the other halved, it just plain wouldn't sound very good. Why not halve both sides and make it four suites? It just wouldn't make for a very satisfying listening experience.

I've presented my arguments for how and why the 12 tracks on the cover can be divided in two and create plausible, enjoyable suites based around shared instruments and common themes. That and how The Elements was originally one track and not its own suite. I won't go in depth about it here because I'm not trying to derail your thread or even discourage you from working on this. Just, you asked if we thought this was plausibly what Brian would've done and personally I have to say "No way, Jose!"
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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The Old Master Painter
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2016, 09:20:10 PM »

As anybody ever tried this? Brian talked about SMiLE being his "Teenage Symphony To God" in two movements (in 1967, contained within 12 tracks), but did he really wanted to produce a pop-rock symphony that followed the exact structure of a symphony?

I poked my nose around this summary by David Pogue and Scott Speck from Classical Music For Dummies, 2nd Edition and here's what I came up with :

Classical Music: The Movements of a Symphony

"The parts (or movements) of a symphony are usually free standing, with one movement ending, a pause, and then the next movement beginning. But the sections, conceived as parts of a whole, somehow relate to one another. The German word for movement is Satz, which means “sentence.” The four movements of a symphony fit together like the four sentences in this paragraph.With rare exceptions, the four movements of a symphony conform to a standardized pattern. The first movement is brisk and lively; the second is slower and more lyrical; the third is a boisterous scherzo (“joke”); and the fourth is a rollicking finale."


Let's say that Brian followed the structure by having side 1 being the Sonata and side 2 being the 2nd, 3rd movement and finale (here being regrouped as "The 2nd movement").

Side A: Americana Sonata (Sonata form)

"A movement in sonata form has two musical themes (or melodies). The first is usually loud and forceful; the second is quiet and lyrical. These themes are often referred to as the masculine and the feminine melodies."    

Could be both "Bicyle Rider" (female) and "Heroes & Villains fade (male)?

(from Wikipedia)
The Introduction section is optional, or may be reduced to a minimum. If it is extended, it is, in general, slower than the main section, and frequently focuses on the dominant key. It may or may not contain material that is later stated in the exposition. The introduction increases the weight of the movement, and also permits the composer to begin the exposition with a theme that would be too light to start on its own, as in Haydn's Symphony No. 103 ("The Drumroll") and Beethoven's Quintet for Piano and Winds Op. 16. The introduction usually is not included in the exposition repeat.


Starting with Our Prayer and Heroes & Villains (part 1 & 2 - the original 6 min version)

"At the very beginning of the movement, you hear the strong first theme; then, after a brief bit of interesting activity in the harmony department, the softer second theme comes in. This whole section’s purpose in life is to introduce, or expose, the two melodies; therefore, musicians call this part of the first movement the exposition."

Leads to Do You Like Worms

"Then comes a new section. Here the composer develops the two themes, varying them and making interesting musical associations. Logically enough, this section is called the development section."

then Im' In Great Shape (The four-part Barnyard suite - following soniclovenoize's reconstruction: Barnyard/Im' In Great Shape/I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night)

"Finally, the main ideas are reintroduced in the same order as at the beginning: first the strong, powerful theme and then the quieter, more lyrical one. The composer restates these themes in a slightly different form, but they’re very recognizable for what they are. This section is called the recapitulation."

The Old Master Painter (Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine/Heroes & Villains fade re-record with Carl)

(from Wikipedia)
"The Coda is optional. After the final cadence of the recapitulation, the movement may continue with a coda which will contain material from the movement proper. Codas, when present, vary considerably in length, but like introductions are not part of the "argument" of the work. The coda will end, however, with a perfect authentic cadence in the original key. Codas may be quite brief tailpieces, or they may be very long and elaborate. An example of the more extended type is the coda to the first movement of Beethoven's Eroica Symphony.


and finally, Cabin Essence

Recap
(First movement: brisk and lively)

Introduction
PRAYER/HEROES & VILLAINS PT 1 & 2
Exposition
DO YOU LIKE WORMS/I
Development
IM' IN GREAT SHAPE
Recapitulation
THE OLD MASTER PAINTER
Coda
CABIN ESSENCE


Side B: Life Suite (incorporation Second & Third movement and Finale)

(Second movement: slow and lyrical)
"Back to our symphony in progress: After the lively and energetic first movement, it’s time to relax. The second movement is usually slow and lyrical, with a lilting, songlike theme. No battle-of-the-sexes melody thing goes on here, and the structure can be looser than in the first movement. Sit back and drink it in."


Good Vibrations could fit here.

(Third movement: dancy)

"The third movement of a symphony is dancelike — a scherzo (meaning “joke” — a quick, often lighthearted tune). The third movement is usually written in three-quarter time; that is, each bar has three beats. (If you count “ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three,” you’re counting three beats to the bar.)

This third movement usually consists of three sections. First you hear the minuet or scherzo itself. Then comes a contrasting section (often for a smaller group of instruments) called a trio. Finally, the minuet or scherzo section comes back again.
So the entire third movement sounds like this:"


Scherzo:
VEGA-TABLES
Trio:
THE ELEMENTS (took inspiration from The Old Master Painter's version: Mrs. O' Leary's Cow/I Love To Say Da-Da/Whispering Winds)
Scherzo:
WIND CHIMES

Finale: rollicking
"Now on to the rollicking finale. The final movement is usually fast and furious, showing off the virtuosic prowess of the orchestra (...)Very often, this final movement is in rondo form. Yes, this last movement has a substructure of its own."


(from Wikipedia:)
"An explanation of sonata rondo form requires first some preliminary coverage of rondo form and sonata form.

Rondo form involves the repeated use of a theme, set in the tonic key, with episodes, each involving a new theme, intervening among the repetitions, like this: A B A C A D A ...

Sometimes the A section is varied slightly. The episodes (B, C, D, etc.) are normally in a different key from the tonic. A sonata form movement is divided into sections."


RONDO: Wonderful/Child Is Father Of The Man(3 min edit)/Surf's Up/Our Prayer (reprise)

recap

2nd Movement:
Good Vibrations

3rd Movement:

Scherzo:
VEGA-TABLES
Trio:
THE ELEMENTS
Schezo:
WIND CHIMES

Finale/Rondo:
WONDERFUL
CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN
SURF'S UP/PRAYER REPRISE


To me, it would seems kinda legit that Brian would do something similar to this back in 1967 but maybe im' just crazy for cocoa puffs... any thoughts?!





If you ever consider executing such a mix, I, in particular, would love to hear it. I think it takes the whole "Teenage Symphony to God" idea to a literal level.
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Bill30022
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2016, 10:05:00 PM »

The problem is that there is no 1967 SMiLE. I do not concern myself with might have been - only with what is and in my view what I have is a brilliant work that I listen to more !than any other piece of music I own and could only better by the voices of Carl, Dennis, Al, Bruce and Mike.
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2016, 10:19:17 PM »

The problem is that there is no 1967 SMiLE. I do not concern myself with might have been - only with what is and in my view what I have is a brilliant work that I listen to more !than any other piece of music I own and could only better by the voices of Carl, Dennis, Al, Bruce and Mike.

And thats legitimately fantastic for you and all others who are happy with BWPS/TSS or their mixes which decidedly do not try to be accurate. But to some of us, trying to get in Brian's head from that time based on the evidence is a lot of fun. I know what you mean--there was no release in '67 and a lot of those songs evolved over the years since. But there absolutely was a rough outline, a conceptual identity as I believe Vosse described it, in Nov~Dec '66 and its worth trying to piece together, however futile some may believe the effort to be. Ive made fanmixes based on the BWPS/TSS aesthetic, my own, and what I believe Brian was trying to do back in the day. I gotta say, the ones Im most proud of and actually listen to on a regular basis, are those based on what I think the album would most likely be had it been completed according to that Dec frame of mind. Those 12 songs on the tracklist (sans IIGS because we dont know what it is) make for one hell of an album. A two sided structure is far more flowing and less cumbersome than a 3 suite. Those bizarre Psychedelic Sounds skits add a really trippy, laid back undertone to the music when included that you dont get on TSS/BWPS, which to me comes off as a bit more pretentious and heavy handed. Sure, we'll never all agree on an exact order or exact mixes for certain tracks. But the point is Brian was really onto something back then, and a lot of the material and aesthetic was lost in the following years when we finally got BWPS/TSS. Its worth preserving and experimenting with.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2016, 11:32:18 PM »

Maybe I'm misremembering, but wasn't "GV" a late inclusion at the companies insistence ?
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 07:20:09 AM »

But there absolutely was a rough outline, a conceptual identity as I believe Vosse described it, in Nov~Dec '66

I assume there were a few "rough outlines" before the Nov~Dec '66 one and several afterwards. None is more "original" than the others IMHO.

I agree that BWPS is not what a 60s SMiLE would have been, but as a composition BWPS is SMiLE as history made it. I wish they had finished the vocals for the unfinished 1966 tracks using the BWPS lyrics with the surviving Beach Boys before releasing the box set in 2011.
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Ceterum censeo SMiLEBrianum OSDumque esse excludendos banno.
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