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Author Topic: Holy… NOTE: THERE'S NO FIRE WITHOUT SMOKE (… got in my eyes…)  (Read 10805 times)
kiwi surfer
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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2015, 11:48:20 PM »

Alarm bells? Thanks to you guys I can now see the locomotive lights. Puts my money back in pocket and walks away.
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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2015, 11:51:23 PM »

Has he sold any typewriters recently?

 LOL
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2015, 12:02:39 AM »


So he deals in vintage cutting lathes and the like. How very coincidental... not that I'm drawing any unwarranted conclusions, of course. Oh no.

An aside: this thread is going some way to restoring my faith in this desperately troubled forum and the vast majority of the posters therein. This is one of the things we do like no other board. Because no other board can.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:06:48 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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Shane
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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2015, 12:54:23 AM »

You know, Andrew is right.  There is some serious sleuthing going on in this thread!   police

Just throwing my two cents in.  As a guy who owns a record store, it's rather shocking to see the amount of unused acetate blanks from this era that are still out there.  At times, collections of records have walked in the door with stacks of these things in the middle of the box.  Aside from radio stations, these Presto blanks were also available to the general public for use with consumer-grade recording lathes.

I have read somewhere that the lacquer does dry out over time, making them difficult to record on, but I have no personal experience trying this.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:55:31 AM by Shane » Logged
chris.metcalfe
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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2015, 12:57:27 AM »

The vendor is no serious BB fan, or he'd know about the original lyric.

...and he'd know how to spell Beach Boys.
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« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2015, 04:29:36 AM »


An aside: this thread is going some way to restoring my faith in this desperately troubled forum and the vast majority of the posters therein. This is one of the things we do like no other board. Because no other board can.

Word
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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2015, 06:39:57 AM »

I don't post a lot here, and when I do it's usually to provide factual or contextual information.  I try to avoid the editorialization that sometimes plagues this board -- and that more than one time has had me debating leaving for good.  But as the owner of a record and memorabilia collection (including quite a few acetates) that will very likely pay for my son's college tuition, I feel an obligation to the members of this board and to the hobby in general to raise a red flag when I see something that is of dubious authenticity / provenance.  Back in the 1980's I was burned by the purchase of a number of Beach Boys acetates that now appear to be either a) outright fakes, b) deejay dub plates for private use, or at best, c) in-house copies made for a radio station library -- but in any case likely worth quite less than what I paid for them.  When a Beatles acetate with identical markings to those appeared on the Steve Hoffman board I was quick to share my experience and warn potential buyers.

If this acetate is proven to be a fake it possibly has even more serious implications for the Beatles collecting world, as that "Ask Me Why" acetate is probably valued in the thousands of dollars.  And it opens up a lot of potential charges related to the sale of that acetate -- which as far as I know have no statute of limitations that would apply to the 2004 sale should the buyer wish to pursue them.

I agree, it's great to see us all band together to protect our hobby.

Lee
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 06:40:57 AM by LeeDempsey » Logged
LeeDempsey
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« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2015, 06:49:56 AM »

Just throwing my two cents in.  As a guy who owns a record store, it's rather shocking to see the amount of unused acetate blanks from this era that are still out there.

Like these (courtesy of the website www.discopatrick.com):


« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 08:19:39 AM by LeeDempsey » Logged
HeyJude
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« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2015, 07:18:14 AM »

I can add little to this type of sleuthing, but if one is looking for the "radio station" angle in how a disc like this could have been cut at any time (e.g. LOOOONG after 1962), the seller, who doesn't have very many recent auctions, did try to auction off a mixing board that he admits was used at a radio station:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ARRAKIS-2000SC-PROFESSIONAL-BROADCAST-IN-GOOD-CONDITION-WITH-POWER-SUPPLY-/252170485519?hash=item3ab6883f0f:g:KD8AAOSwMmBVxSob

I'm the first to say this is proof of nothing. The guy could have a legit acetate and also have come across a mixing board from a radio station. The mixing board looks far newer than 1962, probably 70s or early 80s I would guess.

I wonder what the chances are that this record wasn't cut like a few months ago, but was cut, say, in the 80s. Which of course would still make it rather worthless. I wonder if playing it would lend credence to any particular theory. (e.g. If it plays beginning to end like the million grey-market Hite Morgan compilations going back to the 70s, versus having extraneous pre-song or post-song session tape material that wasn't circulating or still isn't).

The guy appears to be offering little detail in the acetate auction, which at first I figured would absolve him of any complaints. The wording "original" could be taken a number of ways (e.g. "an original 1962 recording on a disc cut this afternoon"). But he also says it has been in his collection since the early 60s, which would be the problem.

While I can understand the difficulty in coming across something that may truly be rare, wanting (or needing) to sell it but not being an expert in the field, I certainly wouldn't get anywhere near this auction unless the description could offer more evidence/provenance, etc.

Maybe I need to bone up on my early era BB history, but is there even a particularly compelling reason that they would have cut an acetate solely of the Hite Morgan version of this song back in early 1962? I know stuff could be cut to acetates for all sorts of reasons (demo-ing for others, for publishing/copyright purposes, etc.), but I wonder about that as well.

Are there any other acetates from this era that have a label showing "H. Morgan"?

I don't even collector old memorabilia like this but find this stuff interesting.
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Pretty Funky
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« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2015, 07:26:24 AM »

Sale has ended due to 'error'.

Result.

Nice job guys!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 07:29:11 AM by Pretty Funky » Logged
Cam Mott
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« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2015, 07:26:35 AM »

It appears the auction has been ended by the seller.

PF beat me to it.
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« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2015, 07:46:52 AM »

After reading all of this I retracted my bid of 400$ and the highest bid left was $59 or something. The seller then ended the auction and has put a new one up where you can buy it now for 1200$.
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« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2015, 08:29:23 AM »

Wow, and the new auction didn't even alter the wording of the description at all. If the guy would just remove "original" and the reference to being in his collection since the early 60s, and just sold it as-is, it would be clean. Of course, then nobody would bid on it.  LOL
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Don Malcolm
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« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2015, 08:49:33 AM »

Nice work, everyone. Now let's hope that there is some way to revive the old Beach Boys Central concept so the future of access to all the music will be what we'd all like it to be--a reasonable democratic process that promotes the widest possible access and a platform for non-exploitative profit.
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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2015, 09:05:24 AM »

Wow, and the new auction didn't even alter the wording of the description at all. If the guy would just remove "original" and the reference to being in his collection since the early 60s, and just sold it as-is, it would be clean. Of course, then nobody would bid on it.  LOL

Well, it may very well be the "original demo" of "Surfin' Safari" on the acetate, and maybe the blank acetate has been in his collection since the early '60s?...

If I took a CD of the Hite Morgan sessions, and recorded the "Surfin'" demo on my reel-to-reel deck to a vintage reel of Scotch 101 recording tape, I suppose I could sell it as "an early 1960's reel-to-reel tape containing the original demo of 'Surfin'" if I worded it just right.  Undecided
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 09:07:18 AM by LeeDempsey » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2015, 09:08:37 AM »

I breathed a sigh of relief when the listing was ended prematurely but am a bit flummoxed by the fact that it'e been re-listed.

As Lee implies, this chap could offer a genuine 1962 acetate containing a demo of U2's forthcoming single next week…
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« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2015, 10:23:15 AM »

Just looked at the sellers eBay User ID and realized I've met this person on a few occasions, but in the context of radio, not in the context of Beach Boys collecting. He seemed like a very nice upstanding guy. I've sent him a message asking about the typewriting on the label, as well as how he acquired this item in the early sixties.

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« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2015, 10:26:58 AM »


A reply. He claims it's a 10" disc. It's clearly not. Compare the width of the dead wax on it with The Beattles disc, also listed as a 10". On the latter, it's roughly the width of the label on either side. On the BB disc, it's clearly wider.


The width of the dead wax is a function of both the length of the recording and how closely the grooves are spaced together, which can be varied. As a result, comparing the width of the dead wax to the width of the label is not necessairly an accurate way to determine the diameter of a record.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:30:57 PM by Custom Machine » Logged
Pretty Funky
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« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2015, 10:36:56 AM »

Looking at his other sales he had some Elvis acetates that went for $1500 and it matches this sale from last year....

http://www.popsike.com/ELVIS-PRESLEY-RARE-SUN-RECORDS-ACETATES-OF-HIS-FIVE-45-RPM-SUN-RELEASES/251569203543.html

A 3 day auction with only one bid?

The price does not match the like of this eBay sale...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elvis-Presley-complete-set-of-ORIGINAL-1950s-Sun-45s-NEAR-MINT-/181861399656?hash=item2a57c8bc68:g:z4IAAOSwrklVebci
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LeeDempsey
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« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2015, 10:49:39 AM »

"You are buying a complete set of Elvis Presley records on rare acetates originally recorded by Sam Phillips at Sun Records recording studio in Memphis, Tenn."

Very carefully worded.  The "complete set of Elvis Presley records" was most definitely "originally recorded by Sam Phillips at Sun Records".  The prepositional phrase "on rare acetates" doesn't necessarily apply to the "originally recorded..." portion of the sentence.

Lee
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« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2015, 11:50:51 AM »

Having sold some things on eBay and having run into countless situations from buyers, I think it's interesting if the seller of this record is trying parse the wording of his auctions, because eBay nearly always errs on the side of buyer. I once had an auction where a buyer said something wasn't included that was never advertised as included, and the auction even had a specific notation saying this additional item was "NOT INCLUDED", yet when the buyer filed a claim, eBay blindly sided with the buyer. Eventually sorted it out, but the system is set up to favor the buyer. I've even had buyers attempt pretty clear fraud and it's tough to get eBay to do anything about it. But if a buyer says *anything* is off at all about what they bought, it's immediately the seller's responsibility to just suck it up.

I only say this to point out that *if*, and it's a big if, *if* buyers in some of these scenarios described above complained and asked for their money back, I'm pretty sure eBay would force the seller to do it.

There must just be some deep-pocketed, yet less discerning collectors out there.
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« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2015, 12:04:16 PM »

Wow. I'm completely ignorant of all subject matter discussed
 here but am wildly impressed.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 12:05:33 PM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2015, 12:29:01 PM »

Here's the message I sent to the seller:

Got a question for you. All the blank Presto discs I've seen came with the label pasted on. As a result, when they have been used the recording info is handwritten on the label. So I can't figure out how the info is typewritten on this Presto label.
Also, since this has been in your collection for years, where and from whom did you originally obtain this acetate?


And here's the response I received:

I guess some Presto labels came separate when recording studios purchased a box at a time?
I have a couple like this in my collection from various sources.
I made a promise when I obtained this Beach Boys acetate that I would not tell people the source but will give that information to the buyer.
I can tell you it was from someone in the industry.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2015, 12:34:47 PM »

So... no provenance until you've coughed up the bucks. I call bullshit on that.  As for the "I guess...", well...
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kiwi surfer
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« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2015, 12:52:03 PM »

I made a promise when I obtained this Beach Boys acetate that I would not tell people the source but will give that information to the buyer.
I can tell you it was from someone in the industry.[/color]

You have to admire someone keeping that sort of promise for longer than 50 years. On the other hand ...
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