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Author Topic: Mike and Bruce - Pre 2012  (Read 21482 times)
Lee Marshall
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« Reply #100 on: November 22, 2015, 11:41:28 AM »

Diggin' Al's interview a TON...the honesty and clarity leaves other 'spokepeople' in the dissipating wake of reality. Cool Guy
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« Reply #101 on: November 22, 2015, 01:20:28 PM »

Diggin' Al's interview a TON...the honesty and clarity leaves other 'spokepeople' in the dissipating wake of reality. Cool Guy

Exactly.  It's really not complicated...The guy was there, working with both Mike and Brian over the years, and that's pretty much all the living originals, isn't it?  The rest of us didn't live it from that point of view.  Most of us weren't tossed the ball from quarterback Brian on top of singing with him.  Those who were in the various BB "realms" can speak to certain things - Ed Roach with Dennis comes to mind, among others.  But other than that, we mostly go on what experience we've had (if any) and our opinions, which are worth, well...
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« Reply #102 on: November 22, 2015, 01:31:14 PM »

Diggin' Al's interview a TON...the honesty and clarity leaves other 'spokepeople' in the dissipating wake of reality. Cool Guy

Love Alan's straightforwardness. Not loving the interviewer's research quite so much.
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« Reply #103 on: November 22, 2015, 01:41:56 PM »

Diggin' Al's interview a TON...the honesty and clarity leaves other 'spokepeople' in the dissipating wake of reality. Cool Guy

Love Alan's straightforwardness. Not loving the interviewer's research quite so much.
Yeah, on both counts.
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« Reply #104 on: November 22, 2015, 02:30:50 PM »

Diggin' Al's interview a TON...the honesty and clarity leaves other 'spokepeople' in the dissipating wake of reality. Cool Guy

Love Alan's straightforwardness. Not loving the interviewer's research quite so much.

AGD - Given your research efforts, I suspect pretty much any author will fall short.  They're cranking articles out to meet a deadline (I know the feeling) and in the world of the internet, that's like, yesterday.  But the interview is great.  

I like being old.  I say exactly what I think after lots of experience without worrying too much about my employer, since I'm an independent contractor.  Al probably doesn't have to worry about what he says at all, given his very fine chops.  Good for Al!  If people don't like it, they'll let him know, and he can care...or not.

Oh, and Emily, you seem to be very cool and smart - love your comments.
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« Reply #105 on: November 22, 2015, 07:43:35 PM »

Interesting about Lady Lynda and Brian.  Guess that explains why he's launched into it randomly during sound checks on at least a couple of occasions
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« Reply #106 on: November 22, 2015, 10:21:46 PM »

Diggin' Al's interview a TON...the honesty and clarity leaves other 'spokepeople' in the dissipating wake of reality. Cool Guy

Love Alan's straightforwardness. Not loving the interviewer's research quite so much.

yeah, he can't even get al's birthday right..
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« Reply #107 on: November 23, 2015, 02:23:10 PM »

Sheriff, reference the set-list friction.  I SAW it firsthand prior to the C50 Cleveland Ohio show in middle of June 2012.  My wife bought us M&G/Sound check tickets for the show. Fantastic experience. After 7 or 8 songs Brian yelled over to Mike, lets do Marcella.  Mike responded "we" don't know Marcella.  Brian says, "Mike, my guys know Marcella". So...then everyone stops for a moment and the principals make their way, along with Totten, over to Brian's piano.  A lively discussion went on for a minute or so, not yelling, but it seemed opinionated to me with Mike saying a lot during that short time.  It wasn't a yelling match by any means and even being in the first row, I couldn't make out what was being said. But observed alot of tension. 

Also during the sound-check, Mike was on the phone ALOT when he wasn't part of a song being practiced. I thought this was strange at the time and have thought about it alot since, as I've read all the threads since the breakdown of C50.  No way of ever knowing but one just wonders if by June 2012, the breakup at the end was already in the cards.

One final event from the sound-check. Totten kept Al over at the end to practice the end to Help me Rhonda.  Somehow the previous night at the Cincinnati show, Al screwed up his ending and Scott wanted him to practice. A disagreement between the two occurred on how it should be played at the end. Finally Scott says to Al.  "Al, this is how we play it NOW" and he walked away.  Al stayed, practiced it a few times....took off his guitar....looked down at everyone and just shook his head and walked off.  Again in retrospect, it was just very sad to see in person knowing what we all know now.

I did get to shake Al's hand at the M&G.  Mike was very personable to my wife as we had the picture taken.  He also wanted to know at what show I had bought my Beach Boys hat.  Kind of strange in retrospect, but I think he knew could tell it was from an M&B tour. 

It was a great evening but looking back, did I see stuff that, now having 3+ years of reading these threads, that was the beginning of the end.




Reading that really rubs me the wrong way. It's ok for Brian's band (who made up most of the entire C50 band) to learn songs like Still Cruisin', Kokomo and Ballad of Ole' Betsy but Marcella shouldn't be played because Mike's two band members don't know it? Tough sh*t. Learn it. There were five surviving members of The Beach Boys on that tour and each and every one of them deserved to have a say in what songs should be performed. To have a reunion celebrating 50 years of music only to perform a greatest hits show (mostly consisting of a songs from 3 or 4 years) wouldn't have made sense and would have been a HUGE wasted opportunity.

No offense but who is Scott to tell Al how the end of Help Me Rhonda will be performed? He may have been the musical director but Al is a Beach Boy. He should show more respect for a Beach Boy. If the Beach Boy who sings the lead of that song wants to end it a certain way, then end it Al's way. Change your way of doing things for one tour. Then when the touring version of Mike's band goes back on the road, go back to how you end it. I just think that's absurd and it's a shame that fans who paid to sit in on that soundcheck had to witness crap like that. I would have been livid.



Lee, didn't mean to ruin your weekend.  With both touring groups so ensconced with their "own" ways on presenting the BB music, I do recognized the difficulty joining a mixture of the groups for C50.  You're so right that BW had five members from his band and ML had his two, yet Totten was the musical director for the tour.  No one knows how entitled and enabled ML made him during the negotiations just to get the tour off the ground.  I'm a big AJ fan but one can read a post a day about Al being forgetful and missing lines and cues during songs.  Who knows what really came down and in MANY ways, I'm sorry I saw it with my own eyes.  Just a ton of large ego, past excess baggage, and a lot of hurt feelings from over 50 years, for this large an endeavor to have been successful given the past dis-functionality of the within group.  We all wanted different, but Al really says it all in this interview saying Mike put the squash on the tour and its not happening again until east meets west.  Just all so sad because the fans want it, oh so bad !!!
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« Reply #108 on: November 23, 2015, 02:49:16 PM »

BW had five members from his band and ML had his two...

Five ? Darian, Jeff, Nelson, Probyn, Scotty, Paul and until he left due to ill health, Nicky (replaced by Mikey).
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« Reply #109 on: November 24, 2015, 12:37:00 AM »

I'd like to point out that my post in this thread suggesting that Brian gets $100,000 a year from Mike's touring, was misremembered -- and thus totally wrong.

Earlier this year, I actually estimated that each member of BRI receives about $250,000 a year from the M&B show. (Basically, if Mike makes $70,000 from each show -- we know that promoters pay about $100,000 -- and does 100 shows in a year, he clears $7 million. At a 15 percent royalty to BRI, split four ways, you have a quarter million.) Give or take the number of shows, the actual percentage paid (which could be higher), the amounts promoters fork over and other factors, that amount could shift.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 12:43:37 AM by Wirestone » Logged
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« Reply #110 on: November 24, 2015, 01:27:25 AM »

I'd like to point out that my post in this thread suggesting that Brian gets $100,000 a year from Mike's touring, was misremembered -- and thus totally wrong.

Earlier this year, I actually estimated that each member of BRI receives about $250,000 a year from the M&B show. (Basically, if Mike makes $70,000 from each show -- we know that promoters pay about $100,000 -- and does 100 shows in a year, he clears $7 million. At a 15 percent royalty to BRI, split four ways, you have a quarter million.) Give or take the number of shows, the actual percentage paid (which could be higher), the amounts promoters fork over and other factors, that amount could shift.

And as I've theorized before, I have a hunch that Brian wouldn't remotely need that revenue stream if Murry hadn't sold the catalog. I think we have Murry's actions to indirectly thank for Brian's vote, and I doubt M&B would have the license otherwise.
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« Reply #111 on: November 24, 2015, 06:27:49 AM »

Sheriff, reference the set-list friction.  I SAW it firsthand prior to the C50 Cleveland Ohio show in middle of June 2012.  My wife bought us M&G/Sound check tickets for the show. Fantastic experience. After 7 or 8 songs Brian yelled over to Mike, lets do Marcella.  Mike responded "we" don't know Marcella.  Brian says, "Mike, my guys know Marcella". So...then everyone stops for a moment and the principals make their way, along with Totten, over to Brian's piano.  A lively discussion went on for a minute or so, not yelling, but it seemed opinionated to me with Mike saying a lot during that short time.  It wasn't a yelling match by any means and even being in the first row, I couldn't make out what was being said. But observed alot of tension.  

Also during the sound-check, Mike was on the phone ALOT when he wasn't part of a song being practiced. I thought this was strange at the time and have thought about it alot since, as I've read all the threads since the breakdown of C50.  No way of ever knowing but one just wonders if by June 2012, the breakup at the end was already in the cards.

One final event from the sound-check. Totten kept Al over at the end to practice the end to Help me Rhonda.  Somehow the previous night at the Cincinnati show, Al screwed up his ending and Scott wanted him to practice. A disagreement between the two occurred on how it should be played at the end. Finally Scott says to Al.  "Al, this is how we play it NOW" and he walked away.  Al stayed, practiced it a few times....took off his guitar....looked down at everyone and just shook his head and walked off.  Again in retrospect, it was just very sad to see in person knowing what we all know now.

I did get to shake Al's hand at the M&G.  Mike was very personable to my wife as we had the picture taken.  He also wanted to know at what show I had bought my Beach Boys hat.  Kind of strange in retrospect, but I think he knew could tell it was from an M&B tour.  

It was a great evening but looking back, did I see stuff that, now having 3+ years of reading these threads, that was the beginning of the end.




Reading that really rubs me the wrong way. It's ok for Brian's band (who made up most of the entire C50 band) to learn songs like Still Cruisin', Kokomo and Ballad of Ole' Betsy but Marcella shouldn't be played because Mike's two band members don't know it? Tough sh*t. Learn it. There were five surviving members of The Beach Boys on that tour and each and every one of them deserved to have a say in what songs should be performed. To have a reunion celebrating 50 years of music only to perform a greatest hits show (mostly consisting of a songs from 3 or 4 years) wouldn't have made sense and would have been a HUGE wasted opportunity.

No offense but who is Scott to tell Al how the end of Help Me Rhonda will be performed? He may have been the musical director but Al is a Beach Boy. He should show more respect for a Beach Boy. If the Beach Boy who sings the lead of that song wants to end it a certain way, then end it Al's way. Change your way of doing things for one tour. Then when the touring version of Mike's band goes back on the road, go back to how you end it. I just think that's absurd and it's a shame that fans who paid to sit in on that soundcheck had to witness crap like that. I would have been livid.



Lee, didn't mean to ruin your weekend.  With both touring groups so ensconced with their "own" ways on presenting the BB music, I do recognized the difficulty joining a mixture of the groups for C50.  You're so right that BW had five members from his band and ML had his two, yet Totten was the musical director for the tour.  No one knows how entitled and enabled ML made him during the negotiations just to get the tour off the ground.  I'm a big AJ fan but one can read a post a day about Al being forgetful and missing lines and cues during songs.  Who knows what really came down and in MANY ways, I'm sorry I saw it with my own eyes.  Just a ton of large ego, past excess baggage, and a lot of hurt feelings from over 50 years, for this large an endeavor to have been successful given the past dis-functionality of the within group.  We all wanted different, but Al really says it all in this interview saying Mike put the squash on the tour and its not happening again until east meets west.  Just all so sad because the fans want it, oh so bad !!!

Al or anybody in the band would surely sometimes need a musical director (that's why these guys hire them!) to organize everything. But reading about Al being potentially talked to that way during a C50 rehearsal (and I realize, the actual tone of what was said is impossible to convey), it reminds of an anecdote David Marks told in his book with Jon Stebbins. The band leader tells Dave to "play it like the record!", and Dave tells him "I AM the record!"  LOL

If I was a musical director and Al was missing cues or biffing lyrics, I'd try to work it out (although what can you do other than to say "stop doing that!"?). But if he wants to end the song a different way than any or all prior touring bands have ended it, and the arrangement works structurally, I'd defer to the guy. Especially if it's his "signature" song that he's been doing for 47 years.

I think, though, that this is another example potentially for why the C50 tour was so amazing. Totten had never worked with Brian or Al (other than having Al at the one 2011 gig for a few songs), yet the whole musical direction came off quite well, at least from the audience viewpoint. Seriously, there may not be a band more bogged down by politics than the Beach Boys. That Totten got through it with the full band, having never experienced any of this turmoil and politics in person (say what you will about Foskett, but he was certainly there in person for some interesting band politics in the 80s, eventually getting involved in some side politics himself), I'd have to guess Totten just did his homework and perhaps was briefed on personalities and whatnot. I can't imagine easily "telling" Brian how to do his own songs when you've never worked with him before. I guess Foskett was the buffer there, I dunno. I any event, on C50 there were no "knees to the groin" when gathered around mics like Steven Gaines suggested happened in the late 70s in his book.  LOL

(Seriously, I'm still waiting for someone to substantiate the story of a Beach Boy literally kneeing another Beach Boy in the groin during a concert. I dunno, Brian got pretty excitable on the bass for some of those '77 shows!)
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« Reply #112 on: November 24, 2015, 06:33:52 AM »

A live show shouldn't be OVERLY concerned with sounding exactly like the record. Band members taking a few liberties with the tunes in concert is nothing new. I don't know why it was suddenly an issue in 2012 on Scott Totten's part, but then again, I wasn't there.
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« Reply #113 on: November 24, 2015, 06:46:28 AM »

A live show shouldn't be OVERLY concerned with sounding exactly like the record. Band members taking a few liberties with the tunes in concert is nothing new. I don't know why it was suddenly an issue in 2012 on Scott Totten's part, but then again, I wasn't there.

This isn’t so much to speak to any specific person or incident, but with C50 there were some interesting factors at play. While Mike’s band has certainly added more rarities to the setlist in more recent years, they still do some arrangements a bit more in the mode of the “old touring band” days. A good example would be Mike’s band’s version of “Heroes and Villains”, which I know they only sporadically play. Before and after C50, Mike’s band does the 70s/80s (and occasionally 90s) touring band arrangement of the song, which leaves out the “my children were raised” bit, and has the rather different and more up-tempo, bombastic chorus arrangement. It also has the variation the BB’s started doing in the late 70s with the ascending bass guitar coming in after the a capella section.

Brian’s band of course was the first band to do an arrangement pretty close to the original studio version (sometimes adding the cantina section and the “you’re under arrest” bit as well, though only the latter was added for C50). (In early 1999, Al’s “Family & Friends” took a stab at a more elaborate version of H&V, and was perhaps the only time the “three score at five” verse was done live in concert).

In any event, you have Mike’s band and Brian’s band doing different arrangements of these songs. You throw Al into the mix who hasn’t regularly played in either band in a decade and a half, has been doing his own versions that tend to be like the old touring band versions but with his own small arrangement changes, and things could easily get confusing and charged with politics and egos.

To everyone’s credit, it appears the band largely simply stuck to Brian’s band’s arrangements since it was mostly his band and that would presumably be easiest, with small changes (and then using Mike’s arrangements mostly for stuff they never do, like “It’s OK”, “Still Cruisin’”, etc.). I’ve always been curious if anything other than convenience was the reason behind D’Amico taking over drums on a couple of Brian-centric songs like “Marcella” and “Pet Sounds.” Was that a moment of “just let us do it” on Brian’s part? Or did Cowsill just take the opportunity for a little break?
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« Reply #114 on: November 24, 2015, 09:53:11 AM »

I'm saying, imo, it will eventually be revealed that it doesn't matter because there was no vote one way or another by BRI which is on each and every board member.  Your opinion is something else,  that's fine.

Why would Mike have brought up the denied "room" issue in the media repeatedly, if not in part for Mike wanting Brian, Melinda (who I'm sure he blames), and the world to know that this was part of why the whole C50, in the manner it went down, was a dealbreaker for him? That grievance was clearly A part, not necessarily THE part, but not a negligible part of why the whole thing didn't continue. If it was completely, absolutely unrelated to why the reunion ended, it wouldn't have been brought up by Mike, unprompted, in that context.

Wouldn't you agree that the guys (not just Mike) have some communication issues with each other?  How does a scenario where Mike *gets what he wants*: the room scenario, specific critical accolades (about how vital Mike specifically is incredibly great and underrated)...how do these hypothetical things make Mike *less* enthusiastic about at least making more of an effort to talk about band stuff with Brian? How does that scenario not at minimum help facilitate an extra conversation or two that *could* have at least led to a better ending than what we got?

You think the exact identical, unchanged scenario, complete with the LA times back-and-forth letters/rebuttals between Mike and Brian, would have happened under these circumstances? Yes or no, and why? I am specifically trying to understand how you could possibly agree with that, unless you avoid answering the question.

I've explained to you before why I don't answer many of your questions.

I don't know that any of that had anything to do with it.  Mike has said he was open to it and waiting for offers. This recent interview seems to suggest that some promoters suggested the band wait and the band took their advice. In the end, it seems no offers were put on their table as far as anyone knows. One or some other promoters (or maybe the same ones) blamed bad press for not tendering any offers apparently. What you are talking about doesn't seem to be in play, so I guess my answer is no.
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« Reply #115 on: November 29, 2015, 08:58:37 AM »

I'm saying, imo, it will eventually be revealed that it doesn't matter because there was no vote one way or another by BRI which is on each and every board member.  Your opinion is something else,  that's fine.

Why would Mike have brought up the denied "room" issue in the media repeatedly, if not in part for Mike wanting Brian, Melinda (who I'm sure he blames), and the world to know that this was part of why the whole C50, in the manner it went down, was a dealbreaker for him? That grievance was clearly A part, not necessarily THE part, but not a negligible part of why the whole thing didn't continue. If it was completely, absolutely unrelated to why the reunion ended, it wouldn't have been brought up by Mike, unprompted, in that context.

Wouldn't you agree that the guys (not just Mike) have some communication issues with each other?  How does a scenario where Mike *gets what he wants*: the room scenario, specific critical accolades (about how vital Mike specifically is incredibly great and underrated)...how do these hypothetical things make Mike *less* enthusiastic about at least making more of an effort to talk about band stuff with Brian? How does that scenario not at minimum help facilitate an extra conversation or two that *could* have at least led to a better ending than what we got?

You think the exact identical, unchanged scenario, complete with the LA times back-and-forth letters/rebuttals between Mike and Brian, would have happened under these circumstances? Yes or no, and why? I am specifically trying to understand how you could possibly agree with that, unless you avoid answering the question.

I've explained to you before why I don't answer many of your questions.

I don't know that any of that had anything to do with it.  Mike has said he was open to it and waiting for offers. This recent interview seems to suggest that some promoters suggested the band wait and the band took their advice. In the end, it seems no offers were put on their table as far as anyone knows. One or some other promoters (or maybe the same ones) blamed bad press for not tendering any offers apparently. What you are talking about doesn't seem to be in play, so I guess my answer is no.


Good. Since you're willing to concede that an alternate timeline - where 2012 Mike gets to write with Brian in a room for TWGMTR, leading to much critical praise specifically for Mike's essential contributions - would lead to not the identical C50 endgame implosion that happened in late 2012... well, you'd of course be correct. I'm sure even Mike would admit that it would be pretty inconceivable for that bitter fallout in that exact same manner, with the back-and-forth LA Times responses, to have identically occurred like that.

Of course it's possible that other factors could also have screwed up the reunion even in that alternate scenario, I'll certainly concede that - but no way it would have gotten that ugly that soon, the identical way it happened. Mike would have been riding high on being happy that he *finally* was getting the critical praise and admiration of HIS contributions that he makes no secret of deeply wanting.

Bottom line? Al didn't make any sort of repeated public stink about being shut out of the songwriting angle during the same album's formation, or use Waves of Love's rejection to repeatedly publicly try to prove any sort of point, or garner sympathy. Conversely, Mike made a huge stink repeatedly in the media specifically about the same thing, despite getting several hundred percent MORE songwriting credits on the final album when compared to Al.

I am well aware that Mike has contributed to the writing of many hit songs in the past, far moreso than Al. I needn't be reminded of that. But Mike, compared to Al, had FAR greater demands than Al for the reunion. Mike clearly felt far more entitled to a songwriting agenda happening on his own terms, compared to Al feeling any sort of similar entitlement. Mike's public moaning about songwriting vs Al's lack of public moaning clearly represents the two men's different views. Maybe you think that Mike's entitlement is okay and justified due to his past hits. Regardless, this alone shows Mike's greater needs/demands for the reunion compared to go-with-the-flow Al. It makes no sense to claim that a relatively-speaking much more demanding person not getting their way is equally "responsible" for the ugly ending compared to a much more easygoing member.

The group's legacy - as opposed to any one member's legacy  - was something that Al was able to prioritize. Mike wasn't. C50 was Mike's last-ditch attempt to gain widespread recognition for Mike's role in the BBs (IMO that was the primary reason for the reunion happening whatsoever); when that failed to play out how he wanted to, Mike was obviously deincentivized to continue.

You keep grasping at straws trying to distract from the points I am making - not addressing them whatsoever - by saying the band didn't meet up in a boardroom to discuss future plans... we don't know if subterfuge may have happened behind the scenes that may have caused that meeting to not happen. Mike clearly had huge demands that weren't met, larger than Al's demands. There's no way Mike's resulting bitterness was a 100% negligible factor in why the meeting and discssions didn't properly happen; it defies logic. Thus, there's no way "equal" blame makes any sense, unless everything I stated above is simply avoided.
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« Reply #116 on: November 29, 2015, 10:07:14 AM »

The points you keep trying to make are the deflections and distractions imo which is what I meant by "I don't know that any of that had anything to do with it" and then I gave my reason why.
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