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JK
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2015, 02:35:44 AM »

These are not Muslims. These are brainwashed zombies----your actual bona fide Walking Dead. Brainwashed by crackpot ideologies that shamelessly exploit Islam. At least that's how I see it.
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2015, 02:42:56 AM »


Ah... Therein lies the primary difference between us. If I'm faced with a homicidal madman, I won't care what his religion is.

Eh? I've come to the conclusion that we seem to be arguing two completely different things here.
Anyway, congrats for not resorting to invoking 'Godwin's Law'.
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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2015, 06:56:46 AM »

Some people might find this interesting. But if it contradicts what they already think, probably not.

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2015, 07:47:33 AM »

Some people might find this interesting. But if it contradicts what they already think, probably not.

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

Thanks for that, Captain.  I'm not surprised by the demographic of that young prisoner, that he only had about an 8th grade education, that he joined because it was a way to make money for his family.  And, that he was not tightly connected to the ideology.  I came across something interesting yesterday suggesting that the intel was difficult because there was a use of PS4 for the Paris attack - Play Station 4 which has internet capability.  There is a lot of whining about Snowden screwing up the intel to discover what is going on in the dark web. That is nonsense. This could be propaganda from both sides.

Their "overreaching with monitoring regular good citizens" who have a "reasonable expectation of privacy" I think is what got them in trouble.  The article suggests a disconnect as between the Daesh "leaders" and the grunts who are carrying out the dirty work.  The leaders seems to be involved in oil, human trafficking, and heavy use of propaganda and social media for recruitment. 

But, thanks for that link.  The more we learn and know, the better we can strategize to defend ourselves.     
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2015, 08:23:36 AM »

Some people might find this interesting. But if it contradicts what they already think, probably not.

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/


That article confirms what almost every reputable intelligence agency, including the CIA, said before the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 - that the invasion would lead to an increase in the threat of terror. This was a major argument taken up my the anti-war activists at the time and it was dismissed. The same people who dismissed those arguments then are now suddenly worried about it and yet still champion policies that will only further increase these threats, like, for example, the closed-door policies that we so often see being reiterated, or the air strikes against Iraq and Syria which intelligence tells us is having the same effect that the attacks on Iraq had. But I'm sure there is always going to be some ludicrous suggestion waiting for those same people ten years down the road when these policies fail too.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:44:26 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2015, 09:25:54 AM »

I think it is important to condemn horrifying atrocities like this terrible crime in Paris, just as it is important to condemn the drone strikes that are killing innocent people: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 10:03:29 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2015, 09:59:12 AM »

Some people might find this interesting. But if it contradicts what they already think, probably not.

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/


That article confirms what almost every reputable intelligence agency, including the CIA, said before the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 - that the invasion would lead to an increase in the threat of terror. This was a major argument taken up my the anti-war activists at the time and it was dismissed. The same people who dismissed those arguments then are now suddenly worried about it and yet still champion policies that will only further increase these threats, like, for example, the closed-door policies that we so often see being reiterated, or the air strikes against Iraq and Syria which intelligence tells us is having the same effect that the attacks on Iraq had. But I'm sure there is always going to be some ludicrous suggestion waiting for those same people ten years down the road when these policies fail too.
That was the most frustrating period of my life... the drumming for an irrational war against people who had nothing to do with 9/11 because we had to defend our honor by showing our might and, hey, they're the same religion as the 9/11 terrorists, so what's the diff? And how few people could hear reason. You'd think Americans would have more empathy for other people's insane violence because we had a national fit of it in 2003.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 10:00:49 AM by Emily » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2015, 10:15:42 AM »

I think it is important to condemn horrifying atrocities like this terrible crime in Paris, just as it is important to condemn the drone strikes that are killing innocent people: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147
Given the data shown here, can not anyone see how terrorism is created? These deaths feel, to the families of the victims, the same as the deaths caused by "Muslim madmen" feel to the families of their victims. The families of these victims will be just as racist, and think of violent Westerners, and call for revenge, as did Americans after 9/11. Their governments don't have the power or will to pick some western country to attack, devastate, hang the leader on film and occupy, so terrorist violence ensues. Why is it so hard to see that humans of all religions and ethnicities sometimes react to violence with violence, and to poverty with violence, and to oppression with violence? And that reacting to those reactions with further violence just ups the ante?
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2015, 10:24:17 AM »

From Michael Savage...
We’re facing something the West hasn’t had to deal with since the wars of religion in the 16th and 17th centuries. When those religious wars ended in one place, they began in another. They lasted for over one hundred years.

The same thing is happening right now. The radical Muslims are on the warpath and they are against everyone else. They are against Muslims who are not as fanatical. They are against the members of all other religions. They think they are going to take us back to some pristine religious period in human history that never actually occurred.

It’s all complete rubbish. These “faith warriors” live lower than the pigs they despise. They kidnap and rape 8-year-old girls and say the Quran authorizes it. They’re not purists. They’re killers. They’re Nazis in head scarfs. They aren’t leading a religious revival. They’re trying to take us back to a state of barbarism that has been extinct for 1,200 years.

This is a barbaric revolution, and we have a man in the White House who denies its existence. But whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not, it’s going to continue until someone puts a stop to it.

Jonathan Sacks called the fight against radical Islam the “defining conflict of the next generation.” He likened radical Islam to a starfish. When you cut off a spider’s head, it dies. But when you cut off the leg of a starfish, the starfish can regenerate it. Radical political Islam is a starfish. If you defeat ISIS or al-Qaeda, they will merely come back under another name.

Why would any government bring in unvetted Muslim immigrants at a time like this? It would seem that only an insane prince would do this to his country. But Obama is not insane. He’s stoned. He’s stoned on the orthodoxy of the progressive left. Obama and his supporters are drunk on their ideology. They think they’re going to create a progressive utopia by continuing their attack on all Western values.

This is precisely how great civilizations of the past declined and eventually fell. They rejected the values that made them great and degenerated into narcissism and selfishness. They kept on partying until they were too weak to defend themselves. Then, the unthinkable happened. They fell.



Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/11/a-dance-of-death-in-the-west/#BXTymOADjqfbyQ1X.99
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2015, 10:34:23 AM »

I think it is important to condemn horrifying atrocities like this terrible crime in Paris, just as it is important to condemn the drone strikes that are killing innocent people: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147
Given the data shown here, can not anyone see how terrorism is created? These deaths feel, to the families of the victims, the same as the deaths caused by "Muslim madmen" feel to the families of their victims. The families of these victims will be just as racist, and think of violent Westerners, and call for revenge, as did Americans after 9/11. Their governments don't have the power or will to pick some western country to attack, devastate, hang the leader on film and occupy, so terrorist violence ensues. Why is it so hard to see that humans of all religions and ethnicities sometimes react to violence with violence, and to poverty with violence, and to oppression with violence? And that reacting to those reactions with further violence just ups the ante?

An interesting example right now because it is so close to where the recent tragedy took place is the Algerian election of 1991, which was the to be the first democratic election in the country. Yet when it looked like the Algerians were going to elect the Islamic FIS party, the elections were cancelled, and military rule was put in place leading to the deaths of up to 200,000 Algerians over the next ten years or so.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 10:41:49 AM by Chocolate Shake Man » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2015, 10:54:58 AM »

From Michael Savage...
We’re facing something the West hasn’t had to deal with since the wars of religion in the 16th and 17th centuries. When those religious wars ended in one place, they began in another. They lasted for over one hundred years.

The same thing is happening right now. The radical Muslims are on the warpath and they are against everyone else. They are against Muslims who are not as fanatical. They are against the members of all other religions. They think they are going to take us back to some pristine religious period in human history that never actually occurred.

It’s all complete rubbish. These “faith warriors” live lower than the pigs they despise. They kidnap and rape 8-year-old girls and say the Quran authorizes it. They’re not purists. They’re killers. They’re Nazis in head scarfs. They aren’t leading a religious revival. They’re trying to take us back to a state of barbarism that has been extinct for 1,200 years.

This is a barbaric revolution, and we have a man in the White House who denies its existence. But whether he chooses to acknowledge it or not, it’s going to continue until someone puts a stop to it.

Jonathan Sacks called the fight against radical Islam the “defining conflict of the next generation.” He likened radical Islam to a starfish. When you cut off a spider’s head, it dies. But when you cut off the leg of a starfish, the starfish can regenerate it. Radical political Islam is a starfish. If you defeat ISIS or al-Qaeda, they will merely come back under another name.

Why would any government bring in unvetted Muslim immigrants at a time like this? It would seem that only an insane prince would do this to his country. But Obama is not insane. He’s stoned. He’s stoned on the orthodoxy of the progressive left. Obama and his supporters are drunk on their ideology. They think they’re going to create a progressive utopia by continuing their attack on all Western values.

This is precisely how great civilizations of the past declined and eventually fell. They rejected the values that made them great and degenerated into narcissism and selfishness. They kept on partying until they were too weak to defend themselves. Then, the unthinkable happened. They fell.



Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2015/11/a-dance-of-death-in-the-west/#BXTymOADjqfbyQ1X.99
It's not to do with religion. That, like race or other external group definers, is just an easy thing for simple minds with a short view to grasp on to.
Look at the list I put on the previous page and the list that Mike's Beard put up. What does almost every example have in common? Economic strife or striving, political repression, or poverty. These are the things that lead to political violence every time. When these were the circumstances in Ireland, we saw the IRA. Are the Irish or the Catholics a violent people? No more than anyone else, but they will react to certain conditions with violence. You should read historical texts by the British analyzing the various race-based reasons that the Irish were poor and violent - they're by nature lazy and disorganized, their religion teaches dependency and violence, etc. It's uncanny how precise the terms the British used to talk about the Irish match the terms many Americans and Europeans use to talk about Muslims (and white Americans use to talk about black Americans). Humans are violent when they feel cornered. Like squirrels. If, like Mike's Beard, you can only grasp right now, you can see one set of people performing one type of violence more than others (of course, we are all aware that the US is responsible for many more violent deaths during the same period, but we will all turn a blind eye to that because... oh, no good reason... ) so we can simple mindedly say "those people are more violent than others" but if you have a longer view you will see that it's the conditions that breed the violence. And the conditions are generated over and over again without regard to the religion of the people who live in them.
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« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2015, 11:10:58 AM »

That WND, the self-described largest Christian website in the world--"the world's best kept secret in Christian content and marketing"--would frame it in such terms isn't very surprising.

WND's mission statement: "WND is an independent news company dedicated to uncompromising journalism, seeking truth and justice and revitalizing the role of the free press as a guardian of liberty. We remain faithful to the traditional and central role of a free press in a free society — as a light exposing wrongdoing, corruption and abuse of power. We also seek to stimulate a free-and-open debate about the great moral and political ideas facing the world and to promote freedom and self-government by encouraging personal virtue and good character."

But that's not quite all. "What makes WND’s mission statement so meaningful is the WND team’s commitment to a Christian worldview."

Uncompromising journalism, truth, justice, presented by an entity committed to a Christian worldview. As long as readers consider sources, all is well.
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« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2015, 11:16:03 AM »

From Michael Savage...

Ha, Beanghazi posted something from Michael Weiner. Funny.

Also Bean, why doesn't Michael Weiner go by his real name instead of calling himself "Savage"?
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« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2015, 11:23:11 AM »

Some people might find this interesting. But if it contradicts what they already think, probably not.

http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

Thanks for posting this. I'm not surprised but saddened, as ever, by this cycle that destroys so many lives.
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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2015, 11:26:14 AM »

When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and a cross.
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2015, 11:38:06 AM »

When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and a cross.
Like a little bow on top.
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2015, 12:08:00 PM »


Look at the list I put on the previous page and the list that Mike's Beard put up. What does almost every example have in common? Economic strife or striving, political repression, or poverty. These are the things that lead to political violence every time. When these were the circumstances in Ireland, we saw the IRA. Are the Irish or the Catholics a violent people? No more than anyone else, but they will react to certain conditions with violence. You should read historical texts by the British analyzing the various race-based reasons that the Irish were poor and violent - they're by nature lazy and disorganized, their religion teaches dependency and violence, etc. It's uncanny how precise the terms the British used to talk about the Irish match the terms many Americans and Europeans use to talk about Muslims (and white Americans use to talk about black Americans). Humans are violent when they feel cornered. Like squirrels. If, like Mike's Beard, you can only grasp right now, you can see one set of people performing one type of violence more than others (of course, we are all aware that the US is responsible for many more violent deaths during the same period, but we will all turn a blind eye to that because... oh, no good reason... ) so we can simple mindedly say "those people are more violent than others" but if you have a longer view you will see that it's the conditions that breed the violence. And the conditions are generated over and over again without regard to the religion of the people who live in them.

You keep on and on about this over and over again how 'extremist Muslims are not the only people who have/are committing violent acts of terror'. And? Did anybody here claim otherwise? Does it make the threat they possess any less?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 12:26:11 PM by Mike's Beard » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2015, 12:18:00 PM »


It's not to do with religion. That, like race or other external group definers, is just an easy thing for simple minds with a short view to grasp on to.
Look at the list I put on the previous page and the list that Mike's Beard put up. What does almost every example have in common? Economic strife or striving, political repression, or poverty. These are the things that lead to political violence every time. When these were the circumstances in Ireland, we saw the IRA. Are the Irish or the Catholics a violent people? No more than anyone else, but they will react to certain conditions with violence. You should read historical texts by the British analyzing the various race-based reasons that the Irish were poor and violent - they're by nature lazy and disorganized, their religion teaches dependency and violence, etc. It's uncanny how precise the terms the British used to talk about the Irish match the terms many Americans and Europeans use to talk about Muslims (and white Americans use to talk about black Americans). Humans are violent when they feel cornered. Like squirrels. If, like Mike's Beard, you can only grasp right now, you can see one set of people performing one type of violence more than others (of course, we are all aware that the US is responsible for many more violent deaths during the same period, but we will all turn a blind eye to that because... oh, no good reason... ) so we can simple mindedly say "those people are more violent than others" but if you have a longer view you will see that it's the conditions that breed the violence. And the conditions are generated over and over again without regard to the religion of the people who live in them.
[/quote]

THIS! Thank You Emily for such a well written response, so much more eloquent than what I was going to rant. I can't really add much to it.

 I work with teenagers quite a lot and this subject came up. They're young and only look at main stream media so obviously their views were pretty dark. It made me think of a sketch from Mitchell and Webb (British comedy duo) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY - where some German SS officers discover that they are the 'baddies'. The reason I thought of this was when they asked 'Why' and although I obviously cannot answer this I talked a little bit about some of the things that Britain and our wonderful allies the US have done to secure our world view. As I started listing things I kinda thought there is no difference between Paris and the villages in the Middle East that we have bombed, I think there is a bloody good case to be argued that we are the 'baddies' here and this is just retaliation.

 I'm really not making light of this situation, any death is a tragedy - especially on this scale but to blame Muslims is just plain lazy.
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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2015, 12:21:47 PM »

Victim blaming - awesome.
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2015, 12:47:21 PM »


Look at the list I put on the previous page and the list that Mike's Beard put up. What does almost every example have in common? Economic strife or striving, political repression, or poverty. These are the things that lead to political violence every time. When these were the circumstances in Ireland, we saw the IRA. Are the Irish or the Catholics a violent people? No more than anyone else, but they will react to certain conditions with violence. You should read historical texts by the British analyzing the various race-based reasons that the Irish were poor and violent - they're by nature lazy and disorganized, their religion teaches dependency and violence, etc. It's uncanny how precise the terms the British used to talk about the Irish match the terms many Americans and Europeans use to talk about Muslims (and white Americans use to talk about black Americans). Humans are violent when they feel cornered. Like squirrels. If, like Mike's Beard, you can only grasp right now, you can see one set of people performing one type of violence more than others (of course, we are all aware that the US is responsible for many more violent deaths during the same period, but we will all turn a blind eye to that because... oh, no good reason... ) so we can simple mindedly say "those people are more violent than others" but if you have a longer view you will see that it's the conditions that breed the violence. And the conditions are generated over and over again without regard to the religion of the people who live in them.

You keep on and on about this over and over again how 'extremist Muslims are not the only people who have/are committing violent acts of terror'. And? Did anybody here claim otherwise? Does it make the threat they possess any less?
Well, first, just for general consumption - what you have in inverted commas is not a quote from me.
For your first question, no one explicitly claimed otherwise, but they implicitly did by singling out one group and stating that that group particularly should be excluded from immigration - clearly implying particular issues with that group.
For your second question, if people could stop a minute with all the bigotry, maybe the threat could be lessened. I hope that realizing that the issue here is humanity, not Islam, would reduce the bigotry, which of course feeds the cycle.
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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2015, 12:59:05 PM »


THIS! Thank You Emily for such a well written response, so much more eloquent than what I was going to rant. I can't really add much to it.

 I work with teenagers quite a lot and this subject came up. They're young and only look at main stream media so obviously their views were pretty dark. It made me think of a sketch from Mitchell and Webb (British comedy duo) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY - where some German SS officers discover that they are the 'baddies'. The reason I thought of this was when they asked 'Why' and although I obviously cannot answer this I talked a little bit about some of the things that Britain and our wonderful allies the US have done to secure our world view. As I started listing things I kinda thought there is no difference between Paris and the villages in the Middle East that we have bombed, I think there is a bloody good case to be argued that we are the 'baddies' here and this is just retaliation.

 I'm really not making light of this situation, any death is a tragedy - especially on this scale but to blame Muslims is just plain lazy.
Thanks for posting that video. I've never heard of Mitchell and Webb. I think I'll have to watch more.
Glad you work with teenagers. You are helping in your corner which is more than I can say for myself.
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« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2015, 01:08:29 PM »

When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and a cross.
Like a little bow on top.

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« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2015, 01:17:48 PM »

Victim blaming - awesome.

Nice, isn't it?  How much longer does the rest of polite, normal society have to pretend to tolerate this nonesnese. I think we've polite long enough.
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« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2015, 01:44:56 PM »

Victim blaming - awesome.

Nice, isn't it?  How much longer does the rest of polite, normal society have to pretend to tolerate this nonesnese. I think we've polite long enough.

Yeah! That's the kind of tough talk we need to make America great again. I say no more politeness. Rudeness from here on out. We'll fart at the dinner table, for starters.
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« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2015, 01:48:51 PM »

I think it is important to condemn horrifying atrocities like this terrible crime in Paris, just as it is important to condemn the drone strikes that are killing innocent people: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147

Ay, caramba!

I do appreciate your honest candor and ease at delivering such reprehensible and morally ambigous perspectives, but the inability to understand right and wrong, good and evil -- when frankly the lines have never been clearer and easily understandable -- would, under normal circumstances, simply be dismissble in intelligent, decent society.  But given recent events, they're mostly just nauseating. Not just you of course, there's plenty of examples to choose from -- but I know you won't trouble me with a response.  LOL
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