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Author Topic: Rocky Pamplin book about The Beach Boys?  (Read 489752 times)
filledeplage
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« Reply #275 on: December 19, 2015, 01:26:54 PM »

One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL
EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band?  

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.
EoL
EoL - I have no idea what this "Pledge" term connotes.  Curious timing?  You bet.  I would call it "temporally related" (in time)  to a very successful bio film on Brian,  And a 50th of Pet Sounds, very successful Touring Band schedule.  That is not enough?  Timing?  

A bit player could have an agenda to distract from a wonderful comeback that Brian has enjoyed, and tell tales from a time when it appears that he and his brothers had diminished capacity and expose alleged details that distract from their legacy.  And events that are not so different from any one else who has been addicted to alcohol or drugs and act in a way that is not consistent with their actual personalities.  They tend to misbehave and that is part of the disease.  Health and disease issues are generally private matters.


  
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 01:29:12 PM by filledeplage » Logged
SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #276 on: December 19, 2015, 01:29:37 PM »

Emily wins the thread with clear and concise logic. The BBs had no idea about treating BW's illnesses and really dropped the ball with celebrity "doctors" and goons to watch over BW. BW's condition was apparent to need serious medical help of real doctors by the mid 1970s.
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #277 on: December 19, 2015, 01:31:11 PM »

Emily wins the thread with clear and concise logic. The BBs had no idea about treating BW's illnesses and really dropped the ball with celebrity "doctors" and goons to watch over BW. BW's condition was apparent to need serious medical help of real doctors by the mid 1970s.
Smile Brian - congratulations on your judgeship. 
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« Reply #278 on: December 19, 2015, 01:31:27 PM »

It's pretty obvious there's a whole lot of politics surrounding whom we're supposed to think good thoughts about and whom we're supposed to think bad thoughts about. And there are teams here. And you can try to avoid being on a team, but people watch what you say to see which team you're on. It's kind of creepy and stupid.
I utterly agree. It's been going on since the reunion tour ended, and it's just ludicrous. There *are* people who are on "team Brian" or "team Mike", but those are far fewer than the people who get assigned to one or the other side by those people...

Quote
Regarding this incident, my opinion is:

first Landy hiring: stupid and careless
pamplin hiring: brutal and selfish
second landy hiring: stupid, careless, brutal and selfish.

Whoever made the decisions, or had the power to change them and didn't, can have those adjectives applied to their decision-making.

Am I judgmental? Yes.

I agree with the Pamplin hiring being very wrong. I don't know if those who *hired* Landy were in the wrong then -- LANDY was in the wrong, certainly, but I don't know if we can say that anyone could have known that without hindsight. Certainly Brian himself (the wronged party) thinks that it was understandable. The one time I've heard of him sounding annoyed at Melinda in public was a joint interview they did where Melinda criticised Marilyn hiring Landy, and Brian cut her off saying "My wife didn't know he was a crazy man!" and telling Melinda she was wrong.

I also don't know why *anyone* in this thread is blaming Marilyn for -- or saying she had anything to do with -- the second, disastrous, Landy experience. She and Brian divorced in 1979, several years before the return of Landy.
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« Reply #279 on: December 19, 2015, 01:33:24 PM »

Emily wins the thread with clear and concise logic. The BBs had no idea about treating BW's illnesses and really dropped the ball with celebrity "doctors" and goons to watch over BW. BW's condition was apparent to need serious medical help of real doctors by the mid 1970s.
Smile Brian - congratulations on your judgeship. 

congrats on being an ambulance chaser. Roll Eyes
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #280 on: December 19, 2015, 01:44:30 PM »

Well this one has certainly gone off the rails hasn't it?
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Lonely Summer
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« Reply #281 on: December 19, 2015, 01:47:23 PM »

For our book The Beach Boys In Concert I personally conducted many interviews and much of the stuff in Gaines was indeed confirmed.  In terms of that incident I quote musician Sterling Smith in the book.  He was on that tour and relates the story of how he came to work the day after that infamous meeting and saw Carl being heavily made up to cover his black eye as the BBs were to appear on TV that night.   And-in the book what I stated was that Carl was given painkillers and this contributed to his slurred appearance in the footage filmed at Melbourne that makes the rounds.  The really bad night in Perth happened a week later and is only available on audio.  I didn't say that the tour led to his bottoming out-as he was already in bad shape-but the behind the scenes crap going on that time would drive almost anyone to drink!!! So Carl deserves a free pass on that tour (by the way-almost his only public misstep in a 30+ year career!!! Pretty damn good)
Amen!
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filledeplage
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« Reply #282 on: December 19, 2015, 01:54:04 PM »

Emily wins the thread with clear and concise logic. The BBs had no idea about treating BW's illnesses and really dropped the ball with celebrity "doctors" and goons to watch over BW. BW's condition was apparent to need serious medical help of real doctors by the mid 1970s.
Smile Brian - congratulations on your judgeship. 

congrats on being an ambulance chaser. Roll Eyes
Smile Brian - you contributed little real information to this thread and sat back and just declared a winner like a referee.  A judge is a referee. 
   
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Emily
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« Reply #283 on: December 19, 2015, 01:58:44 PM »


I agree with the Pamplin hiring being very wrong. I don't know if those who *hired* Landy were in the wrong then -- LANDY was in the wrong, certainly, but I don't know if we can say that anyone could have known that without hindsight. Certainly Brian himself (the wronged party) thinks that it was understandable. The one time I've heard of him sounding annoyed at Melinda in public was a joint interview they did where Melinda criticised Marilyn hiring Landy, and Brian cut her off saying "My wife didn't know he was a crazy man!" and telling Melinda she was wrong.

Here's where I'm a lot more judgmental than you and Brian Wilson. I have some ambivalence about being judgmental. I have a lot of respect for your lack of judgmentalism (is that a word?) and obviously Brian Wilson is extreme in this respect. I make careless, stupid and selfish mistakes all the time and it can hurt to be called out on them. But I also think it's wrong for me to not be mindful. It's wrong for me to make those mistakes. And I should be judged for them. So, I can have empathy for someone making a stupid, careless and selfish mistake, but still judge it to be those things. One shouldn't think I'm saying someone is a bad person in general for making stupid, careless or selfish mistakes. I feel pretty confident that everyone has.

I hope and think I've never made a mistake of brutality and I have little empathy there.

Regarding the first hiring of Landy, I have no idea what the process was, but I think people should've been more careful in choosing a psychologist.
Regarding the hiring of Pamplin, the only description of the process I've heard was in his quotes above (perhaps in the Gaines book, but I haven't read that in at least a decade and only have fuzzy memories of being grossed out). It seems from what he said that Marilyn Rutherford-Wilson was discussing a residential treatment program and that Stephen Love wanted to hire Rocky and Stan.

I also don't know why *anyone* in this thread is blaming Marilyn for -- or saying she had anything to do with -- the second, disastrous, Landy experience. She and Brian divorced in 1979, several years before the return of Landy.
Seems reasonable to conclude she wasn't involved.
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #284 on: December 19, 2015, 01:59:39 PM »

Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
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« Reply #285 on: December 19, 2015, 02:11:34 PM »

Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
So, after reading some of the stuff in this thread, I take it that you endorse the publication of all this alleged negative behavioral information coming out about the Wilson brothers that happened when they were under the influence of a substance that skewed their behavior.  They were afflicted with a disease.  

Even by these standards should there not be some privacy considerations for a health matter?

No one is disputing (I am not.) that the care was not what it is today.  

There was no widely-respected addiction treatment. You are imposing a non-existent standard for those years.  

In fact one fairly local medical school just announced an Addiction Medicine track for doctors in training this week. It did not exist in the 60's.  We have enough dead 60's musicians to back that up. Morrison, Hendrix, Joplin.  Brian was lucky to just live through it until he got better treatment almost 30 years later.  

University of Buffalo has had a one year fellowship beginning in 2011 and there were about 10 at that time which were accredited. 
    
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 02:27:28 PM by filledeplage » Logged
Empire Of Love
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« Reply #286 on: December 19, 2015, 02:23:41 PM »

Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL

End of C50 tour - September 28th, 2012.

Love & Mercy announced - June 23rd, 2013.

Mike's book announced - 20th November 2014.

Yup, not too long after at all...

Mike's book is due for a summer 2016 publication.

I stand corrected, it is the hype/release of L&M and announcement of Brian's book I had in mind:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg484970.html#msg484970

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18555.msg485029.html#msg485029

EoL
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Emily
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« Reply #287 on: December 19, 2015, 02:28:28 PM »

Think you mean Mike.
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Empire Of Love
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« Reply #288 on: December 19, 2015, 02:33:50 PM »


Nope, Brian.  It was suggested previously on this board that the announcement/release of Mike's book was timed to coincide with the flurry of new interest in Brian and his story.  In particular the movie and Brian's book.  I'm not saying it was timed in this way, but it was previously suggested and the idea was dismissed at the time.

EoL
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« Reply #289 on: December 19, 2015, 02:36:08 PM »

One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL
EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band?  

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.
EoL
EoL - I have no idea what this "Pledge" term connotes.  Curious timing?  You bet.  I would call it "temporally related" (in time)  to a very successful bio film on Brian,  And a 50th of Pet Sounds, very successful Touring Band schedule.  That is not enough?  Timing?  

A bit player could have an agenda to distract from a wonderful comeback that Brian has enjoyed, and tell tales from a time when it appears that he and his brothers had diminished capacity and expose alleged details that distract from their legacy.  And events that are not so different from any one else who has been addicted to alcohol or drugs and act in a way that is not consistent with their actual personalities.  They tend to misbehave and that is part of the disease.  Health and disease issues are generally private matters.


  

Sorry about that.  My phone auto-corrects my abbreviation of your name to pledge.  I pledge to keep an eye on that in the future.  Wink

EoL
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Emily
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« Reply #290 on: December 19, 2015, 02:37:15 PM »

Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
It's all very complicated but it does seem like finances and the welfare of the band as a whole superseded the welfare of Brian Wilson in some of these decisions. People have made references to avoiding bad press; getting Brian back in the studio rapidly, etc. Those were speculations though. The motives are fuzzy to me.
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« Reply #291 on: December 19, 2015, 02:42:38 PM »

One person I really feel for is Marilyn. She had the toughest task possible in dealing with Brian back then, and yes, as a young rock star wife with kids to raise, she might have made some errors in an impossible situation.

John, this summarizes dozens of conversations that I've had with Marilyn in one sentence -- something I couldn't (and wouldn't) have done myself.  Well done mate!

Lee
The thing about Marilyn that goes right by most people is that she was so young: 16 when they married, 18 during Pet Sounds, 19 when Smile foundered. The Dutch escapade ? 24, with two children aged three and two...
And 30 when this was going down.
Look, she had a really rough time of it but she also did some things that were really wrong.
As did everyone else in this story.
Emily - the thing about Marilyn is that for about 12 years she had to have been "worn down" by all of this. Maybe since things got very chaotic when she was about 18 as Andrew says she was, during Pet Sounds.    

And, reading "between the lines" with this, she was looking at multiple responsibilities and stressors.  First, the kids, second, the husband, third, the record company exerting pressure for record production by the band, who came on deck in a big way with Wild Honey and 20/20; I find both to be very cool albums.  

So, Marilyn made (maybe with or without counsel) an "off the grid" decision.  She may have been convinced or persuaded that an "off the grid" treatment plan was, in what was perhaps judged then as to be in everyone's best interest.  The author has stated that Marilyn threatened "inpatient" treatment.  It would have rendered Brian "unavailable" to fulfill production deadlines.  People make statements when they are exasperated. We don't know the context as readers of what was written in this thread.  

No one gets out of this life without making a ton of mistakes.  Unfortunately Marilyn's "alleged" mistakes are becoming fodder for public discussion.  It is too bad.  I don't need to read the intimate details of someone's life told with soap operatic detail and her life held up to a microscope.  

And, I don't like the "curious timing" of this "release" at a time when so much positive stuff has been happening this past year, on all fronts.   What happens in Vegas should stay in Vegas.  

Whoa, awfully conspiratorial of you pledge.  Reminds me of claims made about the similarly suspicious announcement of the release of Mike's book.  Wasn't it timed not too long after the break up of C50 and the announcement of Love & Mercy?  In fact, isn't it's release coming soon?

EoL
EoL - what does a purported release of a book of a "bit player" have to do with a release of a book of a "principal" of the band?  

Pledge: how is the suspicious timing of a book release negated because the author is a principal instead of a bit player?  Maybe one is riding coat tails for money and one is doing it to re-write history, but suspicious timing is suspicious timing.  You can't poo poo one and not the other.  Well, you can, it just betrays your bias when you do.
EoL
EoL - I have no idea what this "Pledge" term connotes.  Curious timing?  You bet.  I would call it "temporally related" (in time)  to a very successful bio film on Brian,  And a 50th of Pet Sounds, very successful Touring Band schedule.  That is not enough?  Timing?  

A bit player could have an agenda to distract from a wonderful comeback that Brian has enjoyed, and tell tales from a time when it appears that he and his brothers had diminished capacity and expose alleged details that distract from their legacy.  And events that are not so different from any one else who has been addicted to alcohol or drugs and act in a way that is not consistent with their actual personalities.  They tend to misbehave and that is part of the disease.  Health and disease issues are generally private matters.   
Sorry about that.  My phone auto-corrects my abbreviation of your name to pledge.  I pledge to keep an eye on that in the future.  Wink

EoL
EoL - That's funny.  No problem.

You are more dedicated than I, responding on a phone.

My iPad has a mind of it's own and likes to think for me, and substitute a word I did not type.   LOL
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #292 on: December 19, 2015, 02:43:16 PM »

Yeah it seemed like a business decision more than a personal need for BW to get healthy again. They misunderstood that BW only needed to be a commerical entity to be happy again, it was far more complex than that and Melinda understood that.
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« Reply #293 on: December 19, 2015, 02:44:22 PM »


Nope, Brian.  It was suggested previously on this board that the announcement/release of Mike's book was timed to coincide with the flurry of new interest in Brian and his story.  In particular the movie and Brian's book.  I'm not saying it was timed in this way, but it was previously suggested and the idea was dismissed at the time.

EoL
Oh. Got it. Sorry. I thought the above post read like Brian's book announcement was timed to go with Brian's movie hype (perhaps the case), and since I understood the point you were trying to make, I thought you meant to write that Mike's book announcement was timed to go with Brian's movie hype.
Now I understand that you were saying an implied Mike's book announcement was timed to go with  Brian's movie hype and Brian's book announcement.
I will think you are amazing if you understand what I just wrote.
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« Reply #294 on: December 19, 2015, 02:51:54 PM »

Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
It's all very complicated but it does seem like finances and the welfare of the band as a whole superseded the welfare of Brian Wilson in some of these decisions. People have made references to avoiding bad press; getting Brian back in the studio rapidly, etc. Those were speculations though. The motives are fuzzy to me.
Emily - that is completely inconsistent with the way that the band "had Carl's back" during the CO crisis, which happened in the middle of the whole SMiLE era.

They did what they had to do to do free shows to keep Carl out of jail and in  compliance with whatever the federal court required.  Why would they not support Brian?  

SMiLE Brian - you completely ignore what the record company did (or did not do) with Pet Sounds promotion during that era.  It had a domino effect that appeared to shake everyone's confidence.  

And the Spring 1967 tour (following Carl's arrest and court appearance) where they found in Europe that they were promoted as the "surf band" image and not the avant-garde band they had advanced to.  There is a big picture here.  
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« Reply #295 on: December 19, 2015, 03:07:47 PM »

Nobody in the band or the public gave a crap about Carl's CO status. It was the question of BW making money for the family and the release of Smile to the public that mattered.
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And production aside, I’d so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #296 on: December 19, 2015, 03:19:24 PM »

Nobody in the band or the public gave a crap about Carl's CO status. It was the question of BW making money for the family and the release of Smile to the public that mattered.

It is very troubling that you actually believe that.  That CO case dragged on for about 5 years.   

Carl was doing a lot of the leads and, whose voice was so close (the family vocal cords) to Brian that he was critical to touring while Brian was not. 

Don't forget that Brother Records was established in that era. 
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« Reply #297 on: December 19, 2015, 03:23:12 PM »

I feel like Carl avoided the draft to keep the BBs touring machine going more than anything else. It's not like the BBs could have taken a break from constant touring instead and "recharged" their recording energies.
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« Reply #298 on: December 19, 2015, 03:25:40 PM »

Well I call it as I see it, BW needed help from medical professionals instead of being propped up to support a "family" business. Such an arrangement broke him in 1967 in the first place since he was "the Goose that laid the golden egg" and SMiLE threatened that.
It's all very complicated but it does seem like finances and the welfare of the band as a whole superseded the welfare of Brian Wilson in some of these decisions. People have made references to avoiding bad press; getting Brian back in the studio rapidly, etc. Those were speculations though. The motives are fuzzy to me.
Emily - that is completely inconsistent with the way that the band "had Carl's back" during the CO crisis, which happened in the middle of the whole SMiLE era.

They did what they had to do to do free shows to keep Carl out of jail and in  compliance with whatever the federal court required.  Why would they not support Brian?  
  
Like I said, it's fuzzy to me.
I guess it would not have been good for the band if Carl went to Vietnam, so I suppose it was in the band's interest as well as Carl's to support his case and the court's decision.
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jeffh
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« Reply #299 on: December 19, 2015, 04:20:24 PM »

I feel like Carl avoided the draft to keep the BBs touring machine going more than anything else. It's not like the BBs could have taken a break from constant touring instead and "recharged" their recording energies.
[/quote


]He probably avoided the draft so he wouldn't get killed in Vietnam,
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