The United/Western/Ocean way/Cello/East West maze...

[SMiLE Brian]

Its not about the "facts" that led to already known information to be reposted in this thread.


All these rooms are still a part of the same recording complex in LA.

[HeyJude]

The thread isn't going bad. I think the issue is that "these aren't the same studios!" continues to be argued, when nobody is disagreeing. Everybody stipulates to the presented facts.

I think some folks are simply trying to figure out *why* Brian or Al or whomever might be mistaken. Al Jardine isn't trying to be a d**k and spread false rumors about Western and United studios. He's mistaken for a number of possible reasons, of which some folks are trying to understand. Whereas some cases of being mistaken make no sense whatsoever (a band member indicating to a fan that they think "Smiley Smile" never came out and was a bootleg), I think Al or Brian or whomever mixing up Western and United *totally* makes sense once we learn about the nature of how the studios were situated and owned and operated. Given what we know about their memories, and about how myth can become memory, I'm not all surprised that these guys could mix the two studios up.

The McCartney/Abbey Road analogy is a bit dicey. The Beatles (and McCartney post-Beatles) were in all three studios at one point or another over the years. If McCartney walked into the Abbey Road building and headed into Studio One and someone said "McCartney is back at the studio where he recorded with the Beatles", I wouldn't really find that statement to be incorrect. It eventually devolves into symantics. Do we mean "studio" as in the whole facility, or an individual studio within the studio complex? Of course, I always prefer as much specificity as possible. If McCartney is in Studio One or Studio Three and says "this is the exact room where we recorded most of the Beatles stuff", that would be incorrect. But it's not always that clear cut.

[mikeddonn]

The thread isn't going bad. I think the issue is that "these aren't the same studios!" continues to be argued, when nobody is disagreeing. Everybody stipulates to the presented facts.

I think some folks are simply trying to figure out *why* Brian or Al or whomever might be mistaken. Al Jardine isn't trying to be a d**k and spread false rumors about Western and United studios. He's mistaken for a number of possible reasons, of which some folks are trying to understand. Whereas some cases of being mistaken make no sense whatsoever (a band member indicating to a fan that they think "Smiley Smile" never came out and was a bootleg), I think Al or Brian or whomever mixing up Western and United *totally* makes sense once we learn about the nature of how the studios were situated and owned and operated. Given what we know about their memories, and about how myth can become memory, I'm not all surprised that these guys could mix the two studios up.

The McCartney/Abbey Road analogy is a bit dicey. The Beatles (and McCartney post-Beatles) were in all three studios at one point or another over the years. If McCartney walked into the Abbey Road building and headed into Studio One and someone said "McCartney is back at the studio where he recorded with the Beatles", I wouldn't really find that statement to be incorrect. It eventually devolves into symantics. Do we mean "studio" as in the whole facility, or an individual studio within the studio complex? Of course, I always prefer as much specificity as possible. If McCartney is in Studio One or Studio Three and says "this is the exact room where we recorded most of the Beatles stuff", that would be incorrect. But it's not always that clear cut.

HeyJude, the discussion is a good one, but unfortunately there is an undercurrent suggesting agendas because Andrew posted stuff that had already been posted.  Looking at some of the other linked threads people get defensive when it's suggested that Brian's memory may not be what it is, as if people have it in for him.  That's not the case. And as we know, all the guys have selective memories and, as you say, the myth becomes the memory! Nothing cynical going on I'm sure.

[c-man]

I'm pretty sure Brian knows exactly what room Western 3 is, and that United A and B are not that room.

[guitarfool2002]

My issue going back to the thread last year concerns this idea that something needs to be fact-checked regarding the studio naming and the whole ball of wax, and I think it's being called an issue much more specifically than it really is, if it's an issue at all. In the thread posted above (http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,18510.0.html), with the interview from Mix magazine, at no point did Brian's engineer or anyone in that article suggest anything about the Western 3 connection, and at no point did the official press release from the new owners of the Ocean Way complex mention Brian or the Beach Boys when announcing the acquisition and name change.

For all that could be checked into, calling this one a myth that needs busting doesn't seem to measure up, since no one is really putting this kind of info out there in such a specific way.

The points I tried to make were how people who worked and recorded there decades ago might still consider both of those buildings part of the same complex, which they were, part of the same company, which they were, and perhaps even call them Bill Putnam's studios, which they were. If you go back to when Allen Sides owned all the rooms and called them Ocean Way, an interview from that time you might see would not be wrong if it said "this is where Pet Sounds was recorded" because when Sides owned the whole complex, that included studio #3. It's when he sold the Western rooms off that "Ocean Way" became a separate entity in a way that perhaps only people in the industry would know about.

Again, this isn't much of an issue - Perhaps to someone who recorded there in the 60's or 70's, or even recorded at Ocean Way up to the time Sides parted it out to other owners, these were still "Bill Putnam's studios" and part of the complex that was UA-United-Western back in the glory days of the 60's and 70's. The separation seen today by fans looking back was perhaps not an issue with people who actually worked there. You would book time with the office that ran the whole complex, and from there the specific room was chosen.

Simple as that. It's like some of the old-school guys still calling an electric bass a "Fender Bass", it's the difference between how they worked every day back then and what people today say instead. Just like artists from the 60's who recorded at Putnam's studios might still consider that part of the same complex. The McCartney example holds true for me - If Paul were seen going into Abbey Road to record, I don't think it would be wrong if someone said "Paul is going back to the studio where he made all those Beatles hits!", no matter which room he actually ended up going into. It's McCartney cutting tracks at Abbey Road. No need to define further or put an asterisk next to the statement to qualify which door he opened.

Some other interesting things to note. The United rooms are often listed as the ones Sinatra and the Rat Pack preferred. Sinatra actually liked Western 1 the best for a lot of his Reprise era, and would try to get his sessions booked there.

I also saw a stat that the time in the 60's when Putnam's studios were as hot as any rooms in the US as far as cutting hit records and being in demand, his bookings per month would have been the 2015 equivalent of around a million dollars a month in revenue from these sessions. That is staggering.

[guitarfool2002]

There is an interesting footnote regarding the Cello studios. When John Frusciante and Josh Klinghoffer were recording John's 2004 solo album "Shadows Collide With People" at Cello, John said Brian Wilson showed up at the studio and was working in the room next door to him. John said he and Josh had their ears up to the walls trying to listen to what Brian was working on. So that story places Brian at Cello, according to John, but outside of the year I don't know of any specific dates for exactly when this session would have been.

[c-man]

There is an interesting footnote regarding the Cello studios. When John Frusciante and Josh Klinghoffer were recording John's 2004 solo album "Shadows Collide With People" at Cello, John said Brian Wilson showed up at the studio and was working in the room next door to him. John said he and Josh had their ears up to the walls trying to listen to what Brian was working on. So that story places Brian at Cello, according to John, but outside of the year I don't know of any specific dates for exactly when this session would have been.

That COULD be the "A Friend Like You" session I mentioned - which would mean Paul McCartney was also there! - but more likely, that was late 2003. Were any of the interview scenes from the BWPS DVD shot in the old Western (then Cello) 3 room? That could be why Brian was there at that time.

[Andrew G. Doe]

In the ESQ interview, Alan specifically states they recorded "California Girls" in studio B of what is now Ocean Way. They didn't. Track was cut at Western, vocals at Columbia. That was  what made me smile, the rest flowed from there. 

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:

All of this history is quite interesting. When working on 20/20 some tapes that we used had come from Western or United, but the guys did not seem to make any distinction between the two studios – for what it’s worth.

I attended Junior High School in Sarasota, Florida. After school I worked at a studio there called Hack Swing Studios. The main studio had been a design by Bill Putnam using polycylindrical diffusers and such; one of the live studio types, before the advent of multi-track recording or stereophonic sound usurered in more deadened acoustics. One day Mr. Putnam came to make some “adjustments” to the room and I had occasion to see him at work and discuss with him what he was doing. At the time I did not realize the man’s stature or reputation in the industry, so this wiry young kid, who ran the console for a daily radio show, probably asked a lot of stupid and naive questions of the man, but I did learn much from my inquiries. Little would I have suspected how much his influence would be interwoven in my later life. When I designed a large studio for the Premore Studio Complex, just a few miles away from Bill’s studio, I again utilized polycylindrical diffusers, thinking back at my more youthful experience and what I had learned from the man.

During the time we recorded 20/20 we did some sweetening sessions at Western or United or wherever Studio 3 was located (United I think). It wasn’t so much the room that was the reason for going there, rather the piano. I think the Studio 3 piano gleaned as much respect and praise as the room itself. I know many musicians, including Brian, tried to buy the instrument, offering huge sums of money for it, only to be told NOT FOR SALE. It was a standard size or “studio” size Steinway built before the famous and awful fire that wiped out much of the seasoned wood at the Steinway factory. The black beauty was not a beautiful piano to look at. It was all scuffed up and scratched from years of session abuse. A major amount of dust covered the sounding board and was quite visible beneath the strings. Cigarette burns left telltale signatures near the keyboard. Evidence of forgetfulness as take after take took the player’s attention from the burning weed. As the felt at the tip of each striker hardened over the years, it gave the instrument the uncanny ability to “cut” through complex mixes as the hardness stressed the upper harmonics – in a natural way, unlike EQ. A much desired quality. You could place a microphone anywhere near the harp and get a rich and vibrant sound. And of course, so many legends had used the keys, it expelled its own myth just to sit at the keys and stroke them. Even the cracks between the keys told stories.

By the time I was involved, the studio remained unchanged, but the control room had been modernized to accommodate multi-track and stereo recording. A transistorized board had replaced Putnam’s old tube console and the monitors were some combination of JBL and other elements. The only thing I remember remaining was a celebrated small hole in the wall near the door that someone had placed a makeshift frame around. It was said to have been made by Murry Wilson in a fit of rage one day as he banged his fist in anger against the wall and fractured the thin coating of the wall covering, leaving broken wooden fragments surrounding the remaining hole.

I don’t know what the sessions were called when next I visited Studio 3, but one of you who posts here may know what I’m speaking of.  During Brian’s troubled times, management and the guys got the idea that he might be stimulated out of his depression if Studio 3, his favorite,  could be rejuvenated to the former glory as it was when he used it back in his more productive days. So the call went out for equipment. One of the original Putnam boards was removed from a movie studio museum, re-tubed at considerable expense, all the contacts cleaned and serviced. A plywood framework was constructed over the modern console and the old tube console plopped right on top of the modules, knobs and all. It was a twelve-channel model using left-center-right hard panning with three big VU meters on the meter-bridge. One of the senior maintenance engineers had an Ampex four-track stored in his basement, also of tube design. It was moved from it’s resting place to again be put into service in Studio 3. Three Altec speaker boxes were placed on a superstructure support and in front of the newer monitors. These were the same Altec speakers that Brian had used at Columbia a decade earlier for his hit making back then. The thinking being that he would be inclined to relate to that monitor sound rather than the newer sound of the present units. I think by then that Chuck Britz had retired, but he was happy to come over for a few days and run the session, again working with his old friend. So there it was, a re-creation of the early Studio 3, same room, same monitors, same console, the same tape recorder, and the same engineer. As many of the musicians Brian had worked with in his past were contacted, and came to play whatever he wished that day.

My role on this momentous occasion was to run a recorder and two mics that would capture everything that happened in the control room, otherwise I had little involvement other than to be blown away by the wonderful, fantastic, full-bodied sound that this old equipment was producing. As one tape filled up, I quickly mounted another and continued making or rather documenting all the comments being made in the control room.

As I recall, after one or one and one-half days of these retro-sessions, it all stopped rather abruptly. It wasn’t working. Brian felt pressured. He was not comfortable. The music was uninspired. It just wasn’t going to happen.

I have no idea where the tapes I recorded are. Maybe in the vault somewhere, or lost. Maybe one of you can shed some light on this, but that is all I recall.

Well there is one more thing about Studio 3. I can’t remember who it was but someone from the office, the Beach Boy office, called me one day to join them in one last look-see walk through Studio 3 before it was torn down or changed or something like that. We arrived, and it was in a state of abandonment. The floor was full of holes, the acoustic tiles on the walls were in taters. It had been gutted. One light worked, casting a silhouette of skeletal memories on all that was remaining of a once famous room … and it was sad. You could almost hear the musical shadows from a glorious past, as if captured by the walls and crying for release to make one last take.   

~Stephen W. Desper   

[c-man]

Stephen, I'm quite sure the sessions in question were what led into the Keepin' The Summer Alive album, in July of '79. On the 23rd of that month, Brian cut the Spector tune "Little Girl" and another oldie, "Jamaica Farewell". The next day, he did tracks for Chuck Berry's "School Days" and the oldie "Stranded in the Jungle". "School Days"" ended up transferred to 24-track and finished for the album. I think "Little Girl" was redone, and the track ended up the basis for a new song, Brian and Mike's "Sunshine", from the same album.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen, I'm quite sure the sessions in question were what led into the Keepin' The Summer Alive album, in July of '79. On the 23rd of that month, Brian cut the Spector tune "Little Girl" and another oldie, "Jamaica Farewell". The next day, he did tracks for Chuck Berry's "School Days" and the oldie "Stranded in the Jungle". "School Days"" ended up transferred to 24-track and finished for the album. I think "Little Girl" was redone, and the track ended up the basis for a new song, Brian and Mike's "Sunshine", from the same album.

COMMENT:  What an interesting succession of recording subjects. When I was there, little did I know that some of these songs would later be worked on further by myself. Life is interesting!

Any idea where the "documentation tapes" have ended up?  ~swd

[guitarfool2002]

COMMENT:

All of this history is quite interesting. When working on 20/20 some tapes that we used had come from Western or United, but the guys did not seem to make any distinction between the two studios – for what it’s worth.

Thanks for adding that info, this was the impression I got from hearing/reading other people who worked at or recorded at the Putnam studios as well, from the 60's up to the point where Allen Sides split up Ocean Way and sold off those Western rooms which became Cello. The separation of the actual rooms (United and Western's rooms)  versus referring to the facility or complex as a single entity (Bill Putnam's studios, UA, later Ocean Way, etc)  wasn't as much of an issue at the time among those working there as it became later when researching it in retrospect. That could explain some of the terminology and statements.

[guitarfool2002]

On the issue of the sessions where the original studio was recreated for a Brian session...fascinating details! I just wanted to add that Hal Blaine has also talked about these sessions as well in interviews and his book, but perhaps we'd need to check on the timeline that Hal wrote in his book. He described *two* separate sessions where the old gang was brought back together for a session "like the old days". The first was one called by Terry Melcher at RCA where the Wrecking Crew was reassembled but nothing really productive came out of it.

The second one he described was the one where Chuck Britz was involved, it has to be the one Stephen described above, but Hal says it was 1982, and wrote "Western 1" as the studio, but that could be a mistake considering all the other info out there and how Western 3 would have been the obvious choice. Hal said Chuck Britz was the one who called him for this later Western session, and that it was indeed an attempt to recreate the glory days of the 60's sessions, but says Brian was more actively involved in this one and healthier than he was on the earlier Melcher-led RCA session.

Again it could be another case of taking it with a grain of salt as far as those dates from Hal but it's interesting that according to Hal there were two attempts over a decade after the fact to bring back the original session players from the Wrecking Crew to inspire the music, and as Stephen described the Chuck Britz session had an all-out effort to recreate those glorious studio sounds as well with the original studio equipment.

[mikeddonn]

Fabulous post Stephen!  . Thanks for sharing some more of the memories of someone who was there.  Gives us a real feel for that old piano!  On a side note, The piano in Abbey Road studio 2 was still there in 2007.  I wonder what happened to the one at Western?

[guitarfool2002]

There is an interesting footnote regarding the Cello studios. When John Frusciante and Josh Klinghoffer were recording John's 2004 solo album "Shadows Collide With People" at Cello, John said Brian Wilson showed up at the studio and was working in the room next door to him. John said he and Josh had their ears up to the walls trying to listen to what Brian was working on. So that story places Brian at Cello, according to John, but outside of the year I don't know of any specific dates for exactly when this session would have been.

That COULD be the "A Friend Like You" session I mentioned - which would mean Paul McCartney was also there! - but more likely, that was late 2003. Were any of the interview scenes from the BWPS DVD shot in the old Western (then Cello) 3 room? That could be why Brian was there at that time.

It would be easier to pinpoint if there were more dates and details about the John Frusciante/Josh Klinghoffer sessions at Cello but the only dates I've seen were on a session from January 2003 at Cello with John and Josh. Apart from what's out there and until more dates might come out, it's really hard to pinpoint exactly what they were doing and when, and more important what Brian was doing there. If John was listening (or trying to listen with ear against the wall), it could suggest Brian was there in a musical sense rather than the interview filming.

Just an interesting side note about John Frusciante - The "Shadows Collide With People" album was the solo album he wrote when the Chili Peppers were doing By The Way, and it was going to be his first (expensive) fully produced solo album, using pro studios rather than piecing together home recordings as he had done in the past. But the By The Way album was by and large John's production, with him doing the arrangements, backing vocals, writing the backing tracks, chords, working on words with Kiedis, etc. Here's the kind of cool connection.

John originally had songs in mind that were more of a punk influence, but when he talked to Rick Rubin, he got moved in a more melodic direction, and different chord structures than he had in mind. More Beatles, Elton John influence with the writing than the lesser-known punk bands John had been listening to around this time. Then Rubin suggested John get into some vocal harmony for the songs. So John immersed himself in the music of the Beach Boys and Brian's arrangements and productions. Toward the latter part of the By The Way sessions, he went all-out with the Brian vocal sounds and influence in his arrangements and you can hear which tracks on the album had that influence. Walls of vocals, many of them stacked by John himself, in overdubs.

Then the crazy part was John is in Cello recording his solo album after By The Way, having gone head-first into Brian's music, including Smile bootlegs and the whole lot...and in comes Brian Wilson to the same studios where much of that music was made. That's kind of cool in an odd timing sense.

[Andrew G. Doe]

There were three 1982 sessions held at Western that Hal could have been remembering, late May & early June.

On a side note, Chuck was back on the Western payroll in early 1985, when Steve very kindly arranged for me to interview him in the Western Three control room.

[ForHerCryingSoul]

COMMENT:
As I recall, after one or one and one-half days of these retro-sessions, it all stopped rather abruptly. It wasn’t working. Brian felt pressured. He was not comfortable. The music was uninspired. It just wasn’t going to happen.

I have no idea where the tapes I recorded are. Maybe in the vault somewhere, or lost. Maybe one of you can shed some light on this, but that is all I recall.

Well there is one more thing about Studio 3. I can’t remember who it was but someone from the office, the Beach Boy office, called me one day to join them in one last look-see walk through Studio 3 before it was torn down or changed or something like that. We arrived, and it was in a state of abandonment. The floor was full of holes, the acoustic tiles on the walls were in taters. It had been gutted. One light worked, casting a silhouette of skeletal memories on all that was remaining of a once famous room … and it was sad. You could almost hear the musical shadows from a glorious past, as if captured by the walls and crying for release to make one last take.   

~Stephen W. Desper   

This is very sad.  I guess now we can take solace that Brian is in a healthier mindset now.  My guess is that for him, presently, it would take too much time and trouble to assemble the remains of the Wrecking Crew.  It would be much easier to record every musician separately and track everything separately.  Sad indeed that the music was uninspired...