The Right to Keep and Bear Arms: The Gun Thread

[Micha]

Maybe this makes you understand why I don't feel guns are good for the general public. Experiences from an American woman living in Germany.

https://youtu.be/3elDSe5RDgw?t=365

[the captain]

I've previously said, and continue to believe we should have tighter regulation around the sale of firearms in this country. I'm not a wholesale abolitionist, but certainly think there is a lot of room for improvement (as crime and accident statistics make clear to me). That said...

I don't like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/15/nyregion/suit-against-maker-of-gun-in-newtown-massacre-can-proceed-court-rules.html?_r=0

While I would argue that certain weapons--possibly or probably including that one--should be illegal, the reality is they aren't. I don't think it's a good use of our legal system to sue manufacturers for legally making and legally selling legal products. And in fact there is a law preventing lawsuits like this. It should have been dismissed, I think.

Justice, while an understandable goal, cannot be had. The directly guilty party is dead. The innocent dead cannot be unkilled.

[Emily]

My first instinct was to agree, but now I'm not sure. The link you posted didn't present the arguments of the plaintiffs really so I looked for an article that did and found this:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-newtown-gun-liability-nra-20150319-story.html

My question would be: if a toy turns out to be inherently dangerous and kids get injured, is it reasonable that the manufacturer might have some liability?
I'm not sure about the answer. I'd have some qualifications at the least, but I don't think it's so cut-and-dried.

[the captain]

Oh, I agree it's not quite cut-and-dried.

But even the marketing--while repulsive to me, actually--doesn't seem to be illegal. The past few decades of gun legislation and regulation have pushed the idea that weapons are acceptable, and not just for sport or hunting, but a (not remotely well regulated) militia. It's legal to buy those guns; so of course they'll be manufactured and sold, even though we can predict what will happen. I drink a lot. Someday I might die from something that could have been prevented had I not drunk so much. But it's not appropriate for the brewers to be sued for that.

To me, the real key to the article you linked was this: "It's a politically attractive argument for backers of gun control laws, but it's hard to see the courts finding liability here based on "negligent entrustment" because there is nothing negligent in the legal sale of a gun. And the killer was not the person who bought the weapon, but her son, a step removed from what a gun seller could reasonably expect."

[Emily]

I'm inclined to agree with you on the legality but I'm still not quite satisfied.
I think part of the purpose of the suit is to force a rethinking of the protection from liability for distributors of military-grade weapons and to shift the trend away from liberal laws and decisions concerning the distribution of military-grade weapons. I doubt they'll win, under current law, but I think they don't expect to. I think it's a political move and it's probably a political move that I support.
So I agree with the article and you on the law but, and this is a whole other philosophical question, I don't think I have a problem with using the courts to effect political change. And I agree with the plaintiffs on what the change should be.

[the captain]

I don't like the idea of suing people or companies to change law: it unfairly penalizes legal behavior retroactively (if they win). However, on a practical level, it's obviously the best way to bring and maintain visibility to the issue. So the tactic might be the best one. I just don't like it.

(And again, I support the idea of changing law/regulation on the issue.)

[Alex]

[Micha]

Would Christina Grimmie still be alive if her murderer couldn't have gotten guns so easily?

Did her brother who overwhelmed the attacker carry a gun?

[filledeplage]

Would Christina Grimmie still be alive if her murderer couldn't have gotten guns so easily?

Did her brother who overwhelmed the attacker carry a gun?

Micha - this is another horror show from Orlando where the much of the world visits for Disneyworld, Universal, or other theme parks.  And in the US right now there is a massive drug epidemic. 

Drugs and illegal guns go hand-in-hand, and come frequently, from outside the US, with criminals who are selling drugs and other contraband such as counterfeit handbags or clothing.  Who knows if it would have turned out differently?  This was a really bad weekend.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

It's probably much easier to get a gun illegally in this country than legally. So, she unfortunately wouldn't have a different fate.

[the captain]

In Texas, I believe you must present a state-issued ID. That's it. So to me that sounds easier than getting a gun illegally. Obviously state laws vary, but in plenty of places, it's pretty fucking easy to get firearms legally.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

And on top of it, one of the central reasons why it's easy to get guns illegally is because it's incredibly easy to get guns legally.

[bachelorofbullets]

Tighter regulation would go a long way.  If you want a gun you should be able to:

1.  Provide a good reason why you need one
2.  Extensive background checks, including phone interviews with references
3.  Yearly inspections to keep track of the weapon

The fact that we can't even resurrect a ban on automatic weapons is embarrassing. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Drugs and illegal guns go hand-in-hand, and come frequently, from outside the US,

In terms of guns, this is by and large untrue. According to a recent Newsweek article, "while criminals typically do not buy their guns at a store, all but a tiny fraction of the guns in circulation in the United States are first sold at retail by a gun dealer—including the guns that eventually end up in the hands of criminals."

On the other hand, a large majority of gun crimes committed in Canada and Mexico are committed with illegally smuggled guns from the United States.

[the captain]

You're ruining the narrative, CSM! They're criminals, rapists, drug dealers who are stealing our jobs (as criminals, rapists, and drug dealers?) and we need to build a wall! Who's gonna pay for it? MEXICO! Yee-fuckin-haw.

[Mr Big]

I'm a Brit, and I find America's gun problems to be very horrifying and absurd. Justice Scalia interpreted the 2nd Amendment in a really strange way. Although people argue 'guns don't kill people, people do', haven't most massacres' in America taken place by legally obtained guns? Obtaining a gun should be difficult, there needs to be a more rigorous background checks, and exams before you can buy a gun.

[filledeplage]

I'm a Brit, and I find America's gun problems to be very horrifying and absurd. Justice Scalia interpreted the 2nd Amendment in a really strange way. Although people argue 'guns don't kill people, people do', haven't most massacres' in America taken place by legally obtained guns? Obtaining a gun should be difficult, there needs to be a more rigorous background checks, and exams before you can buy a gun.

Mr. Big - oddly enough one of the reasons for the "arms right" comes from England, "An Englishman's home is his castle." It is known as the "castle doctrine." It also takes its roots from Rome, as well.

The concept was established in English law by Sir Edward Coke in "The Institutes of the Laws of England, in 1628.

"For a man's house is his castle et domus us clique best tutissimum refugium (and each man's home is his safest refuge.")

It is related to the crimes of trespass, intent to inflict serious bodily harm during the course of breaking and entering a home.

Just saw this article, relating to personal self-defense and I agree with their training program.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4011110-155/were-here-were-queer-were-packing

From The Salt Lake Tribune - We're here, we're queer, we're packing heat."

Last few paragraphs deal with clubs and theaters where the president of Stonewall Shooting Sports, a 6 year Army vet, describes how when he goes to a theater, he carries, looks for the exits, and is situationally aware.   

[Emily]

We can talk about history, the fact that the 'founding fathers' imposed strict restrictions on gun ownership (http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/country-s-founders-balanced-gun-237079),
the fact that in England and the US, women weren't allowed to own guns and in England the right was reserved for Protestants (http://www.historytoday.com/stephen-cooper/gun-control-right-bear-arms) and in the States for white men (above), and that in 17th century England the "Castle doctrine" could only apply to the very small portion of people who owned homes, all of which clarifies that these gun laws were tools to enforce the hegemonic power of one sector of the citizenry over another.
We could also discuss the obvious difference between weapons then and now and how automatic firing, rifling and expanding or exploding bullets have made it much easier to kill quickly (http://www.businessinsider.com/what-massacres-would-look-like-if-gunmen-used-18th-century-muskets-2013-4),

or we can talk about fools who think they're going to be heroes
(http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/texas-good-guy-with-a-gun-shoots-carjacking-victim-in-head-then-runs-away/
http://deadstate.org/combat-veterans-shoot-down-the-nra-good-guy-with-a-gun-is-based-on-a-fantasy-world/
https://psmag.com/the-pernicious-myth-of-the-good-guy-with-a-gun-3f5b4f0b157a#.frlrr3j6m),

but current reality is (https://www.thetrace.org/2015/12/gun-violence-stats-2015/,
https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-by-the-numbers/)

that people who want to ban Muslims (94 US deaths since 9/11   http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extremists/deadly-attacks.html). and let Americans buy guns (406,496 deaths in the US from gun violence from 2001-2013   http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/) with the abandon that they have are letting their bigotry control their minds.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I'm a Brit, and I find America's gun problems to be very horrifying and absurd. Justice Scalia interpreted the 2nd Amendment in a really strange way. Although people argue 'guns don't kill people, people do', haven't most massacres' in America taken place by legally obtained guns? Obtaining a gun should be difficult, there needs to be a more rigorous background checks, and exams before you can buy a gun.

Mr. Big - oddly enough one of the reasons for the "arms right" comes from England, "An Englishman's home is his castle." It is known as the "castle doctrine." It also takes its roots from Rome, as well.

The concept was established in English law by Sir Edward Coke in "The Institutes of the Laws of England, in 1628.

"For a man's house is his castle et domus us clique best tutissimum refugium (and each man's home is his safest refuge.")

It is related to the crimes of trespass, intent to inflict serious bodily harm during the course of breaking and entering a home.

Just saw this article, relating to personal self-defense and I agree with their training program.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4011110-155/were-here-were-queer-were-packing

From The Salt Lake Tribune - We're here, we're queer, we're packing heat."

Last few paragraphs deal with clubs and theaters where the president of Stonewall Shooting Sports, a 6 year Army vet, describes how when he goes to a theater, he carries, looks for the exits, and is situationally aware.   

The Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stones. The right of 49 people in Orlando to not be killed by an assault weapon is a pretty good legal principal IMO. The world looks on in horrow aat our gun violence. We see it in the comments in this thread.

Just because the Constitution has been warped into some horrific holy grail American right doesn't mean they got it right.

The fact that the NRA has the power to control Congress and stop common sense gun regulation is the loudest signal of how broken our system is.

I really don't give a sh*t what the founding fathers thought or meant. The here and now is that we have a major problem in our country and it's time to start fixing it! A definition of insanity is making the same mistake over and over and over.

[filledeplage]

I'm a Brit, and I find America's gun problems to be very horrifying and absurd. Justice Scalia interpreted the 2nd Amendment in a really strange way. Although people argue 'guns don't kill people, people do', haven't most massacres' in America taken place by legally obtained guns? Obtaining a gun should be difficult, there needs to be a more rigorous background checks, and exams before you can buy a gun.

Mr. Big - oddly enough one of the reasons for the "arms right" comes from England, "An Englishman's home is his castle." It is known as the "castle doctrine." It also takes its roots from Rome, as well.

The concept was established in English law by Sir Edward Coke in "The Institutes of the Laws of England, in 1628.

"For a man's house is his castle et domus us clique best tutissimum refugium (and each man's home is his safest refuge.")

It is related to the crimes of trespass, intent to inflict serious bodily harm during the course of breaking and entering a home.

Just saw this article, relating to personal self-defense and I agree with their training program.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4011110-155/were-here-were-queer-were-packing

From The Salt Lake Tribune - We're here, we're queer, we're packing heat."

Last few paragraphs deal with clubs and theaters where the president of Stonewall Shooting Sports, a 6 year Army vet, describes how when he goes to a theater, he carries, looks for the exits, and is situationally aware.   

The Stone Age didn't end because we ran out of stones. The right of 49 people in Orlando to not be killed by an assault weapon is a pretty good legal principal IMO. The world looks on in horrow aat our gun violence. We see it in the comments in this thread.

Just because the Constitution has been warped into some horrific holy grail American right doesn't mean they got it right.

The fact that the NRA has the power to control Congress and stop common sense gun regulation is the loudest signal of how broken our system is.

I really don't give a sh*t what the founding fathers thought or meant. The here and now is that we have a major problem in our country and it's time to start fixing it! A definition of insanity is making the same mistake over and over and over.

ORR - The Castle Doctrine can extend to workplaces, or your car, where someone would cause you serious bodily harm or death.  It is a parent defending children from a person who breaks into the sanctity of a home to rob, rape, murder, commit arson or kidnap.  Most of these types of crimes are felonies.   

Most states have a form of the castle doctrine.  Some states require you to retreat, if possible.  They could not retreat in Orlando and had someone had a concealed carry, the shooter might not have visited such carnage.  They waited for 3 hours to blow their way in.  Now the FBI has taken the files from Orlando.  Is that transparent?  I don't think so. 

Are Americans supposed to surrender to a terrorist?  The Boston Marathon massacre, was caused by pressure cooker bombs "made in the kitchen of your mom." Did we outlaw them? 9/11 was caused by planes.  Are they outlawed?  The bombs in Brussels were home made with ingredients that are over-the-counter.  Were those banned?  I do agree that mass damage is done by these assault weapons but banning the right to defend oneself is not going to work. 

And, I am no big NRA defender.  There has to be a reasonable compromise.  There are plenty of entities like Big Pharma, the automakers, the insurance companies, and banks who have big influence in Congress besides the NRA.  Just sayin'.

Happy Fourth to those who celebrate and I like to remember that "America is the Land of the Free - Because of the Brave."   

[Smilin Ed H]

Who was the brave? Squanto?

[filledeplage]

Who was the brave? Squanto?

Smilin Ed - I was thinking about the American Veterans, living, disabled and deceased in the defense of the USA.

[Smilin Ed H]

Well, we all have those, don't we?

[Emily]

A. More than 10000 children are killed or injured by firearms annually, most often by a gun in the home.

https://injury.research.chop.edu/violence-prevention-initiative/types-violence-involving-youth/gun-violence/gun-violence-facts-and#.V3qZ2_T3b7o

Hundreds of kids shoot people accidentally with household guns each year and approximately 50 will grow up having killed a family member or friend in his or her youth.
https://everytownresearch.org/notanaccident/

So people who keep guns in their homes for 'protection' are fools threatening their family's safety.

B. Regarding Orlando, there was armed security (15 years on the police force) at the club who exchanged fire with the gunman at the beginning of the massacre. Two officers showed up within minutes and exchanged fire with the gunman (http://www.factcheck.org/2016/06/orlando-club-had-armed-security/).  The stuff you're hearing from Trump is not factual, as ever.
The idea that multiple armed drunk people would likely have reduced the quantity of deaths, and that nightclubs on a regular basis should be stocked with multiple armed drunk people is nuts.

C. Guns have caused 1,000,000s more deaths than pressure cookers or whatever household implement you want to name, or by planes. And those things have other uses so the analogy is wholly inaccurate.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I really don't give a sh*t what the founding fathers thought or meant. The here and now is that we have a major problem in our country and it's time to start fixing it!

100% agreed.